Proposed Starchart Changes [Megathread]

[Wolfstorm18]

If they put prime parts in the planets I will be happy. Im completely stuck with syndicate advancement, because they (the syndicates) are asking for prime parts and I will *not* grind on the void. If theres something that force me to stop playing is void overburn: the constant repetition of that golden tileset is annoying to say the least. 

[Cubewano]

People play same missions other and other again because rewards on other missions suck.

There are only two types of missions that are being played right now:

Endless: best resource farm as the most enemies spawn.

Spy 2.0: Really nice rewards including void keys.

All other missions have some meaningless rewards that are completely not worth playing. Removing choice of missions will do nothing to make people play those missions. They will just play same endless and spy missions...

basically this solution just makes us do what is happening with draco and the void now, but switching by a daily(or weekly?) basis. It merely forces us into changing locations by removing options instead of actually giving other nodes appeal, which is something I can't get behind. They should be trying to fix the problem, not just transfer it.

i really hope this new star chart doesn't bomb the way it being presented to, but its pretty difficult to see it not. People seem to believe the mission crafting system might be its saving grace, but honestly, we all know de and the odds are that it'll have some ridiculous requirement that render it useless/detrimental.

Edited May 9, 2015 by Cubewano

[Feallike]

OK 

 

 

From what I have seen from the Dev stream this doesn't seem as bad as people think it is or as RNG based.

 

So we will have 3 types of RNG.

 

Tile set, Resources, and Mission type.

 

With 20 choices the chances of you not getting a resource or a tile set you want is very very low. Also they said at least 20 meaning their will probably be like 30.

 

Then we don't know when these missions refresh, if they reset every hour then even if you get screwed over one refresh you will still have the next refresh to try again. Or if they are like invasions and reset based on how many times you have played the mission.

 

Then the question of where is RNG hardlocked? Is it impossible for the mission refresh not to include every type of mission? Or is that not the case? Can their be refreshes that all are exterminate or survival? Without that information we can't really make a assumption on whether or not this is bad.

Now keys, the idea of making a key to get into a mission. How many resources are we using to make these keys? How RNG related are we making a random key or is their a key for each type of mission.

 

Also theirs rewards. Do all missions have the Alert reward system now? 

 

Then theirs community cooperation. Can the community give mission ideas to the DE to put into one of the refreshes. I would like to design a all bombard level 60 mission with a 20 neuroid reward for completing. :D

 

OK do you see where I am getting at? We don't know enough about this system to complain. It could be as bad as you guys think it is or very reasonable in comparison and even better than the starchart we have now.

Edited May 9, 2015 by Feallike

[DiabolusUrsus]

The one positive I'm going to take from this is that they're willing to deal with community anger and make changes in the face of it. As long as those changes work out for the better, I'm fine with it. But given DE's track record, I worry that their newfound boldness won't do anything to improve the game, but only make questionable choices and ignore our feedback on them.

I really hope I look silly in a couple months when the new starchart comes out, and that it provides a vast improvement for old and new players. But I can't say I'm optimistic.

 

I absolutely agree with that. DE has had their chances to make less-popular decisions that are beneficial in the long run, like when a few people spoke out against corrupted mods when they first came out. The response they got was

"But this creates more flexibility in what players can do, and we like seeing how creative people can get with their powers," or something to that effect.

 

Next thing we know DE is scrambling to get control of how easily 25 energy ults and cheaper 1-3 abilities can be abused and exploited. I'm seeing the same sort of pattern with Primed mods, and I'm really not liking where things are headed. 

[DiabolusUrsus]

Then theirs community cooperation. Can the community give mission ideas to the DE to put into one of the refreshes. I would like to design a all bombard level 60 mission with a 20 neuroid reward for completing. :D

 

OK do you see where I am getting at? We don't know enough about this system to complain. It could be as bad as you guys think it is or very reasonable in comparison and even better than the starchart we have now.

 

Nope. That is exactly the sort of community "content" that I expected when they first announced the idea, and that sounds absolutely horrible. No thanks, I don't want to have all the non-randomly-generated missions available be hackneyed clones of Tactical Alerts. 

 

Nobody's ruling out the possibility of DE completely blowing our concerns out of the water with an unexpected and amazing system, but there's a difference between being realistic about the chances of that happening and blind idealism. 

[Feallike]

basically this solution just makes us do what is happening with draco and the void now, but switching by a daily(or weekly?) basis. It merely forces us into changing locations by removing options instead of actually giving other nodes appeal, which is something I can't get behind. They should be trying to fix the problem, not just transfer it.

i really hope this new star chart doesn't bomb the way it being presented to, but its pretty difficult to see it not. People seem to believe the mission crafting system might be its saving grace, but honestly, we all know de and the odds are that it'll have some ridiculous requirement that render it useless/detrimental.

 

Does it refresh daily? Or hourly? Also what type of RNG are we facing??? Are we garrenteed to get all mission types every refresh or not? Also the DE stated that their will be at least 20 meaning their could be more. Also we have yet to hear how many resources it takes to make these keys.

 

Do keys take 50k credits to make or 1k???

 

 

From what I have heard from DE, this will have 3 types of RNG: Tile set, Mission type, and resources. We have 4 resources per planet 2 common 1 med, and 1 rare. With even 20 missions we only have 5 rare resources so the chances for a refresh that doesn't have neuroids is very low if even possible. Really what gets people upset is the mission types being random. Though we really have yet to see how random this is going to be. 

 

 

Also this could introduce more lore, we could have Vey hek go into a Infested tile set trying to experiment to create super solders. Having a invasion like mission with buffed up greneer.

 

The DE can do a lot with Starchart 3.0.

Edited May 10, 2015 by Feallike

[Feallike]

Nope. That is exactly the sort of community "content" that I expected when they first announced the idea, and that sounds absolutely horrible. No thanks, I don't want to have all the non-randomly-generated missions available be hackneyed clones of Tactical Alerts. 

 

Nobody's ruling out the possibility of DE completely blowing our concerns out of the water with an unexpected and amazing system, but there's a difference between being realistic about the chances of that happening and blind idealism. 

 

Though I think we are more bias toward this being aweful then it being pretty good. We have to look at both parties since the chances of this being stupidly aweful aren't as high as we are thinking it is. 

 

Also that was just the first thing that popped into my head. ;-; Don't make fun of my stupidly OP mission ideas!! :( ... I can change the reward to Fang prime blade.

 

 

What can make this horrible: weekly refreshes, everything is random no consistency, keys cost 50 plat for a random key.

 

 

What can make this Awesome: Garrentee of having atleast one of each mission and a garrentee of having a void,dark sector, and archwing which isn't based on RNG and doesn't take regular mission slots for every planet, Garrentee of every resource per refresh, Alert type of rewards for each mission, Hourly refreshes,  Keys are very cheap, Random bosses have lore, and community ideas put into missions.

 

(sorry for all the edits)

Edited May 10, 2015 by Feallike

[--.B.--HARDCOREDAVE-]

I think you misunderstood what I was saying. In fact, you interpreted it the exact opposite of how I wrote it. I am saying that I just want to be able to gain materials when I want and I do not care if how i get those materials is RNG dictated. 

 

My only worry about the rework is that DE will add a second layer of RNG to farming... everything. If I want to farm Neural Sensors, there should ALWAYS be an option available for me to farm Neural Sensors. If I want to farm a Boar Prime Barrel, I should ALWAYS have some option to farm a Boar Prime Barrel. I do not care (and would find it a welcome change) if the mission by which I farmed Neural Sensors or Boar Prime Barrels changed day by day, maybe one day a Spy, the next a Survival, then the next an Exterminate. This would massively decrease the "burn out" of Warframe and make all of the mission types worth playing on a day by day basis. 

 

The issue would be if the option to farm WHAT (as in the resources or parts) you want was affected by a second layer of RNG, that is the time sensitivity of missions that even offer what you want. If the mission where I can farm Boar Prime Barrels is only open at certain times, dictated by RNG, I will not be a happy Tenno. I, however, would encourage for DE to change the way that I farm those Barrels day by day, just don't make me go on a wild goose chase trying to find them and always leave an option, somewhere, where I can farm what I want when I want. 

He gets my point ^ The Time sensitivity + RNG + removal of player choice+ crafting own missions doesn't sound APPEALING or VIABLE.

[DiabolusUrsus]

Though I think we are more bias toward this being aweful then it being pretty good. We have to look at both parties since the chances of this being stupidly aweful aren't as high as we are thinking it is. 

 

Also that was just the first thing that popped into my head. ;-; Don't make fun of my stupidly OP mission ideas!! :( ... I can change the reward to Fang prime blade.

 

It's a bias born of experience, which is the point. It's more likely that the chances of this being stupidly awful are higher than you want them to be.

 

I'm not making fun of your mission idea. I'm saying it sounds horrible, which it does. The reward isn't the problem; it's the resultant gameplay. Against nothing but level 60 bombards the only thing to do is ability-spam with meta builds, which is the closest you can get to a fine mix of mind-numbingly boring and infuriatingly frustrating.

 

Edit: To be a bit more clear, it'd be just as bad if someone were to do an exterminate mission consisting entirely of shield ospreys for a reward. Whether the community puts together ridiculous challenges or easy-mode cash-ins, the lack of engagement and sustainable entertainment is the problem. I'm sick of disposable, low-quality content. 

Edited May 10, 2015 by DiabolusUrsus

[--.B.--HARDCOREDAVE-]

Yeah, because DE has never #*($%%@ anything up before. And NONE of their ideas have EVER been implemented subpar in quality EVER.

 

Yeah, because making keys to do missions has gone so well before... Arbritary time crafting, which serves no purpose, incredibly pathetic crafting costs, etc. No really, if keys are gonna be so easy to make, why even bother with the requirement to make them? I.e. OD keys, it's just a waste of time crafting them one by one, and it's at the point where they shouldn't even exist as a QoL improvement.

 

Why not improve the system as it is, instead of overhauling it? Why not prune some of the redundant nodes until new game modes come in? Why change something without having a solution in place, and working beforehand? I.E. "story" based missions? DE barely writes story as it is, so I highly doubt they'll have a huge flood of lore and story after the change. I highly doubt the galaxy will feel like it's changing just because of this change.

 

The list of problems goes on and on. This purposed change is a classic DE idea. It sounds cool, and great, but they'll fail in actual delivering it fully. It'll become another one of the half finished reworks.

DE has made some bad decisions with some minor changes ^ as he said we are just trying to prevent it with this one especially with what's at stake due to the gravity of impact this major change will bring forth.

Edited May 10, 2015 by HARDCORE_DAVE

[--.B.--HARDCOREDAVE-]

Well, it will kill the game on pc, but once they see it they'll revert the change. It won't even reach consoles.

Yes PC players will absorb the blow first but eventually it will have a chain effect if it turns out okay then consoles have nothing to worry about if it doesn't I fear that it will also affect severely our console brethren.

[Aaira]

This is basically DE's attempt at trying to kill farming. Period.

But warframe IS farming.

[--.B.--HARDCOREDAVE-]

I'm prob 70% done the star chart. I other than the small mastery it gives you, I find there to be no point to do the star chart.

That's the main problem as well if DE just made completing the 254 nodes in the star chart more rewarding then they wouldn't have to reduce or remove 230 of the nodes they created. Something along the lines of a special reward or access to new/hidden planets with better resource rates and rare mods and stuff why couldn't have DE just gone the other way and EXPAND instead of CONTRACT.

[--.B.--HARDCOREDAVE-]

can you edit and space that giant thing out please? 

RIOTx already made a space or corrected version in the first page and credits to him I'd rather discuss the main point of this topic through feedback via comments.

[--.B.--HARDCOREDAVE-]

Only time will tell if it's a big mistake or a step in the right direction.

You should relax OP and enjoy the vast star chart while it lasts.

Also next time use paragraphs, i don't mind going page by page but next time do a TL;DR.

Yes true when I heard that DE will remove the star charts I made it a goal to enjoy the different nodes that I liked playing in with the different tile sets and cool sounding node names. Yeah i think I forgot to add a TL;DR with my main post thanks.

This is basically DE's attempt at trying to kill farming. Period.

the whole post can be summed up to this and removal of player freedom of choice ^

[Halisi]

 I hope some people realize this but not everyone plays missions just for rewards? It's very disheartening to go into a planet and find that most of the nodes are empty. It's very annoying to be forced to play solo in a co-op game if I want to play the kind of missions I want; and it doesn't help that there are no ingame guild recruitment systems.

 

 I welcome the concept as it will now be possible to play you want and play with other people at the same time if you don't have a clan or friends. You also have to consider that even in large clans most of the people online will be doing what they want to do and those goals won't align with yours very often. This makes it unlikely that they will want to take time from their activities to play with you especially if you're doing something that doesn't reward much.

 

 

[Miracue]

There is a problem with the current star chart system, which is that 80%ish of the nodes available will not successfully connect you to another player as few are on the node. Lets see how DE remedies this with the starchart shrinkage before we try to stop them from, well, trying.

 

Im sure they considered that some people enjoy farming spy nodes, perhaps there would be at least one of each node type per day? We will never know until its out I guess.

 

Lets wait and see.

[DaftMeat]

I solo a lot. I also dislike Mobile Defense and Rescue, and I avoid Defense or Interception unless I specifically round up a team for the last two modes.

Why is "MORE RNG" always the answer to changing/improving things?

[--.B.--HARDCOREDAVE-]

There is a problem with the current star chart system, which is that 80%ish of the nodes available will not successfully connect you to another player as few are on the node. Lets see how DE remedies this with the starchart shrinkage before we try to stop them from, well, trying.

 

Im sure they considered that some people enjoy farming spy nodes, perhaps there would be at least one of each node type per day? We will never know until its out I guess.

 

Lets wait and see.

The theory of removing the duplicate nodes is good in paper. I mean DE can just reduce SOME of the duplicate nodes instead they went overboard and said lets remove more than 80% of the nodes players have worked hard in completing or finishing and replace it with time-based/story-quest based RNG mission type selection. Yes we can wait and see but if all our fears have justification even if its by the slightest we will not stay quiet about it and fight for something we truly believe will harm the game in the short run if it has good implications for the long run but manages to drive away or damage the game to the point of people wanting to give up on it creates justifications for players to take drastic measures as well since DE started it by proposing a very drastic/extreme change. So yes you people can wait and see while we activists will try our very best to fight for what we believe in and not give up while there is still a fighting chance that DE might hear us and take into consideration what we are warning them of.

[xmegarockx]

beware of this it can kill the game im warning no to do this noooo.

[NikolaiLev]

Only the farmers will complain about this.

 

What other kind of player is there?  There are people who farm and people who play often and farm.  This harms the latter and reduces player choice.  It's bad and doesn't help anything.

 

The problem of not having people to play with could easily be solved by giving players a list of places that are populated, or a game-driven LFG search system that doesn't require sifting through Recruiting chat.

 

MMORPGs like Rift have systems in place to aid playing with people, like an "Instant Adventure" that adjusts your power level automatically and drops you into places of various level.  It has a LFG Queue that slots you with a dungeon group according to your role.

 

Warframe could easily adapt these systems for a system-wide queue.  Being able to set looking for specific resources, planets, prime parts, and so on, and then automatically queue you with other people looking for those same things would make finding people to play with a breeze.

 

But that actually takes some effort.  Is DE up to the effort?  Only they can answer that question.

[-Noximilien-]

Gotta admit, the way the dev team goofed around while one of the few staff who actively plays the game is trying to figure out the logic behind it all...kinda disrespectful.

 

 

All in all, the map crunch is a very bad idea and nobody with any sense will enjoy RNG on top of the already RNG heavy game. We love options even if it doesn't seem like it. At least give us the ability to select what kind of mission we want to go into.

[Pendragon1951]

As far as i'm concerned lore went out the window a long time ago and I've stopped really being concerned about it, Warframe Lore is like a book with no words in it just pictures which are in no certain order.

[(PSN)WiiConquered]

It's a bias born of experience, which is the point. It's more likely that the chances of this being stupidly awful are higher than you want them to be.

 

I'm not making fun of your mission idea. I'm saying it sounds horrible, which it does. The reward isn't the problem; it's the resultant gameplay. Against nothing but level 60 bombards the only thing to do is ability-spam with meta builds, which is the closest you can get to a fine mix of mind-numbingly boring and infuriatingly frustrating.

 

Edit: To be a bit more clear, it'd be just as bad if someone were to do an exterminate mission consisting entirely of shield ospreys for a reward. Whether the community puts together ridiculous challenges or easy-mode cash-ins, the lack of engagement and sustainable entertainment is the problem. I'm sick of disposable, low-quality content.

To add onto this, it seems that DE is more divided on this than anything they've recently let us know about, which, on the one hand, gives hope that all angles are being looked at but, on the other, suggests that this may currently be as flawed as we fear.

[(PSN)WiiConquered]

There is a problem with the current star chart system, which is that 80%ish of the nodes available will not successfully connect you to another player as few are on the node. Lets see how DE remedies this with the starchart shrinkage before we try to stop them from, well, trying.

 

Im sure they considered that some people enjoy farming spy nodes, perhaps there would be at least one of each node type per day? We will never know until its out I guess.

 

Lets wait and see.

They didn't try though. That's the problem. Instead of doing something like removing half of the nodes and improving rewards on many of the rest, so people can still choose the missions they want to play while bringing the community closer together, they just threw it all out.

Honestly, this is somewhat common for DE: if something's broken instead of taking smaller, slower, more calculated steps to fix it they just jump way to the other end of the spectrum and break it in a different way.