Proposed Starchart Changes [Megathread]

[Latiac]

Well, I'm off to grind the star chart before all this happens so I have all the resources required without waiting for the right missions to show up.

[WERElektro]

This is probably more terrifying to me then being in 9/11.

 

Too soon.

[(PSN)The_Moustache]

I just want to reiterate this and add a supplemental remark afterwards: 

 

 

This is a whiteboard - this is everyone talking, thinking, communicating, writing, erasing, repeat -  and this what makes working together at DE so rewarding. In this Devstream we had this conversation openly with each other and with you all, not because we wanted to show you the stone chiseled tablet of what is coming, but because we wanted to discuss openly what we've been discussing off-camera. Sharing what we've been struggling with, what we've wanted to achieve. Could it have been more polished? Probably - but we're not ready to polish what we're still actively figuring out.  

What's been invaluable about the surrounding discussion is where your reactions focus on what you'd like to see and what you'd hate to lose - this mirrors our conversations. These discussions are strongest when the ad-hominem is left out, though. So please keep that in mind. 

Next Devstream will pick up where we left off, and we're working on figuring out a Dev Workshop-style post on what we want to do with the Star Chart. Warframe has always changed and evolved, and as this chapter starts off with bang as the goals are candidly discussed. The ignition of dramatic energy surely reflects on how much everyone cares about this, but this chapter is just beginning. Onward to Dev Workshops, discussions, and more. 

 

Is it possible that we could get the Mission Crafting system before the possible starchart changes? This could possibly put some fears to rest and iron out some issues before it becomes almost a necessity in starchart 3.0. If it's ready, you guys could just give us the Mission Crafting system in U17, listen to feedback, and refine it until possibly U18 where you could introduce the new starchart. 

 

Another interesting idea is to take the Mission Crafting system in a crazy way like with Phantasy Star Infinity's system. You could pick the enemies, location, bosses, and levels, but  I believe you could also add modifiers like increased exp gain and drop rates. Being able to customize missions to this degree could also alleviate some RNG complaints and people could still farm and level up their weapons while fighting their favorite faction.

[KvotheTheArcane1]

What you're doing is known in the real world as fear-mongering. It's just as bad as mindless acceptance, if not worse.

I disagree, DE has a pretty big history of messing up things they implement, along with just bad ideas in general. What optimism is there that isn't completely unfounded?

 

Player crafted missions? You mean the keys that'll be put in most likely? That's about the most "player crafted" thing we've gotten to do in game (crafted, as in we make it, not as in community ideas for frames/etc). I highly doubt DE can pull this off successfully the first time.

 

Missions focused on story/System affecting missions? PUH-LEASE. PULL THE OTHER FUCKIN LEG. It took them HOW LONG again to finally do something with Vor's Prize? Fool me once...

 

"...time-based instances, such as Vor appearing temporarily..."? You mean bosses, that we have access to now? Meaning getting a new frame is now behind another time and RNG wall. Woohoo! what's not to be excited about?

 

Removal of player choice? HOORAY! I HATE making choices. Yeah, F*** that player choice stuff!

 

Honestly, whats to get excited about? Player crafted missions? We haven't seen anything like this from DE, unless you count the design council voting on a frame theme/powers that DE picks. But judging on DE's past introduction of new features it'll be horribly bug ridden, not work well, or simply just not worth doing.

[MantisCore]

For what it's worth, I agree wholeheartedly with everything I have heard so far from Steve regarding this solar chart overhaul. This is something that has been in desperate need of attention for a long time. When 90% (I'm being generous here) of the nodes in the outer solar system is a complete ghost town you know something needs to be done.

 

You seem to be moving in the right direction with this. Let me help you along with some of my personal wishes:

 

1) Variety. Doing the same thing over and over is boring. Let me do different things while still working towards longtime goals. Give me a reason to mix it up.

 

2) Immersion. Let me feel like there is a lore reason (beyond "everything must die") for the mission. Why must this ship be taken out? What are we stealing? Who needs rescuing?

 

3) Choice. If I'm dead set on doing a specific mission type, let me do it.

 

4) Surprise me. Some level of randomness can be fun as they can shake up the monotony. Could be temporary bosses, rewards or mission nodes with special rules or circumstances for example. Give everyone plenty of time to complete these, though. Missing cool stuff because you have to go to school or work doesn't feel great.

 

5) Matchmaking. Please, please, please make sure to make everything work with matchmaking. With a reduced node count matchmaking should work even better than before. Some people like to make groups of friends or to hang out in recruiting chat, and that's cool, but I think that the effortless matchmaking is one of the strongest features of this game and should be available for every mission.

 

That's all I could think off right now. Keep up the good work and stay strong. :)

[Gale47]

Read up, guys.
https://twitter.com/sj_sinclair/status/597421673915252737

[Nightfallen]

I am seriously trying to wrap my head around him say the removal of player choice will be better for the game. I have never heard such a crock of BS in all my life. If want to get rid of the ghost node issue then tackal the actual issue. Why dont players play those nodes? Basically the rewards on those nodes aren't worth running them. Even if you reduce the number of nodes to 20 people still aren't gonna run the node they dont want to run. Players will just quit if its RNG and they don't get what they want.  You will divide the player base into those who have the resources to craft there own nodes and those who don't you aren't fixing the "ghost" node problem at all you are just forcing player to play what you want or not play at all and guess what most players will choose to play something else. Those "new players" wont have the resources to craft custome nodes. Which mean they will just log off if the game isn't showing the mission they want.  There is a ghost node issue but you aren't even trying to fix it you're just going force players to only be able to play a node the game generates which may or may not be what a players want to do. I know if I logged in wanting to get a specific weapon or resource or just mission type and it wasn't available, I wouldn't play the stuff that was available i would log off and play a different game.  You aren't fixing the problem your are trying to change to a system that "ghost nodes" can't be a problem while ignoring all the flaws and problems the new system causes. Take a step back and look to see what the current system does right and it does quite a bit right i might add. The current systems has much more right about it the the new system outlined.

 

 

If you want to fix the ghost node issue first get rid of all duplicate node per planet. One node per mission type per planet is fine. Second take some of the rewards from the void and add them as possible rewards throughout the planets and nodes. This solves your void reward dilution problem too and give people specific goals and nodes to farm for specific parts. Third add effects to node you haven't visited in awhile, this could be extra affinty to higher chance to get a prime part or resources or more credits just to name a few. 

 

One thing you will never do is force people to play a mission type they dont like. Even if you make it RnG, I  can see it now, player X ques up, boom gets his 3 other players, then wham oh crap its Y mission type. Then 2 people say F this and leave. You need to lose your disallusions that you can force players to play content they dont want to play. The best you can do is offer up enough rewards that players will WANT to play that content.

[(XBOX)LordPuck]

People are going to play missions based on what they want. If they want credits, a specific type of resource, a warframe part, etc. No system is going to just randomly have people playing missions because they are there. I've asked a bunch of people why they go after those synthesis scans each week. You know what most of them said? "Just in case they add a reward later on." The other few I asked said they're doing it because they're interested in the lore. None of them said, "Because it's there."

 

Let me put it in another way. The current system can make me work towards things I didn't want at first. If I'm in the void trying to get the parts for some prime frame but I instead get a lot of parts for a prime weapon it can make me go, "Hm I only need one more part for this weapon, I guess I'll try to get that." Suddenly I'm building something I had no intention of building just because it was avaible. Maybe I'll hate it, maybe I'll love it, but at least it's making me try new things. With the new system I'll just see what's avabile and go, "Nope, none of that looks good, maybe tomorrow I can play."

 

I feel like a lot of the problems in the current star chart are actually problems with the reward systems. We have all these dead nodes because they do nothing for players. So the solution to this problem isn't to make a system where players can sometimes ONLY play on nodes that do nothing for them, that's awful. The solution is to make a system that rewards players for playing modes or nodes they don't often play on. "You haven't played a spy mission in a while, you'll get this if you do." Kinda like a personalized alert system.

How many mission types are in Warframe?  

 

1) Archwing

2) Spy

3) Crossover

4) Invasion

5) Crossfire

6) Defense

7) Interception

8) Excavation

9) Hijack

10) Survival

11 Towers ( regular)

12) Mobile Defense

13) Dailes/syndicates only

14) Alerts

15) Towers Infested

 

I might be off by a couple lol

Why couldnt your idea be applied to this as well?

[Gale47]

https://twitter.com/sj_sinclair/status/597421673915252737

Can you STOP PANICKING NOW please?

[Domaik]

I have not read the whole thread and I don't think any human comming new to this massive post would have the time and will to read it all...for that I'm sorry.

 

What I come here for is to add my voice, as a fellow close beta tester and player ever since, as a player that has spent WAAAAAAY TOO MUCH money on this game and loves it with passion, i come to add my voice and vote to those wishing for a better star-chart or even the return of the old star-chat. It was so much better than the current one.

 

The current star-chart system with naav coordinates and everything is nice the planet graphics are nice. what is awful is the stupid wheel-move around thingy...In my opnion it has no substance and is beyond ugly...I would be best if we could just select somehow what star-chart we want to view...give us options...I personally hate the new one since day 1 and will continue to do so and ask for a better one or the old one.

 

thank you for your time reading this and as usual, remember this is my opinion (and I'm also able to say that 18 of the 25  players in my clan have the same opinion, the rest haven't been online to even give their opinion but you see what i mean, this post is my opinion but it's also a generalized opinion that the current star chart is not good and most of those who knew the old one want it back.

[vaugahn]

I disagree, DE has a pretty big history of messing up things they implement, along with just bad ideas in general. What optimism is there that isn't completely unfounded?

 

I can't remember the last big implementation that was seriously botched. Maybe melee 2.0, though that was kind of doomed from the start. It's just that everyone tends to remember the bad over the good.

 

And if you notice, everything in that list is guesses based on helplessly vague statements. There's no point in freaking out yet when we barely know anything, and running around the forums fear-mongering only makes things worse.

[KvotheTheArcane1]

I can't remember the last big implementation that was seriously botched. Maybe melee 2.0, though that was kind of doomed from the start. It's just that everyone tends to remember the bad over the good.

Melee 2.0, Damage 2.0 (this was a "fail", but it didn't solve the problem that was in D1.0), the OD, the void (again, not a "fail" in the sense that is was bad, but it certainly was NOT what they imagined), Archwing, man is that a mess etc.

 

And if you notice, everything in that list is guesses based on helplessly vague statements. There's no point in freaking out yet when we barely know anything, and running around the forums fear-mongering only makes things worse.

Player crafted missions maybe, but we know how the 20 node system works, hell, they've even tried to talk about "removal of player choice" in a good way! The only good news is that Steve (maybe) pulled his head out of the ground and might listen to the players on this.

[vaugahn]

Melee 2.0, Damage 2.0 (this was a "fail", but it didn't solve the problem that was in D1.0), the OD, the void (again, not a "fail" in the sense that is was bad, but it certainly was NOT what they imagined), Archwing, man is that a mess etc.

 

If we're just talking about things that came out differently than players expected that's going to be a very long list. I'm talking about things that were actually manually bad on implementation. Even archwing wasn't that.

 

Player crafted missions maybe, but we know how the 20 node system works, hell, they've even tried to talk about "removal of player choice" in a good way! The only good news is that Steve (maybe) pulled his head out of the ground and might listen to the players on this.

 

Again: one uselessly vague comment (all loot allocation is removal of player choice, if you'd like to get specific) on a subject that, if dev statements are correct, is still being played with. Concrete information is nowhere to be found, and yet we have people parading their black helicopter theories around like they're fact.

[.ERO.]

Well then they should just implement better incentives and reward systems as incentives to player to join squads in the nodes rather than removing choice from player of what nodes or game modes they want. There are some solo players that want to do their own thing on certain tilesets that they want your taking away that choice from them as well? As already stated in this thread there are a lot of better alternate solutions than creating an artificial immersive RNG based mission selector that removes players choice DE even stated so themselves "that it will remove some player choice and compensate it with crafting" so RNG replacing GRINDING at least with FARMING you know and have a hold or control of the time you can achieve your personal goals even with the current system there is enough RNG already. So I suggest for those people that haven't gotten every single thing yet from the star chart such as boss sigils frames, hunter weapons that spawn on certain invasion tile sets and missions, arch wing missions and even resources STOCK up already and prepare for the worst. I personally have farmed everything already on the star chart and have completed all nodes so for me it won't be a problem but do you see me giving up on this issue? NO cause I want to be able to choose what mission or gameplay I do and I don't want to be crafting keys to access areas that I already have access to that in itself is very $&*&*#(%& idea.

TL;DR

Well I read the last line, and uhhh, you can choose what mission to play without keys.

They are removing the current bland and diluted illusion of choice, nuf said.

[ashrah]

from update archwing i lost interest in game.....now i just log in once in moths... for couple minutes.....

[KvotheTheArcane1]

If we're just talking about things that came out differently than players expected that's going to be a very long list. I'm talking about things that were actually manually bad on implementation. Even archwing wasn't that.

Actually bad? You mean all the crashes and bugs in the OD i.e.? Or that Archwing's drops were incredibly hard to find? That D2.0 didn't "change playstyles"/kill rainbow builds and make varied builds worth taking? "Different from what players expected" is more or less what a lot of that is. DE says one thing, and we get something way different (or filled with bugs and whatnot).

 

I'm willing to bet Parkour 2.0 is gonna be a big flop, just like starmap 3.0

[DJ_Redwire]

-snip-

 

This is exactly what I think in a more articulated fashion.

 

----

 

Why does this issue need to be any more complicated than some rather simple cleaning of redundancies and redistribution/dispersion of rewards? If anyone has a clear cut answer to that question I would love to hear it. Because we've already seen in practice what a few well placed incentives can do - Spy 2.0 was a pretty clear proof of concept in that regard. Put things people want somewhere and they will go there to pursue them - this is anything but new. Is there something I'm missing here?

 

Because at the moment, it feels like DE is trying to fix an old car engine, which just has a few loose loose screws that need tightening, by buying a new car of a different model, gutting it for the engine, and rebuilding that new engine from the ground up to put into the old car. 

 

The information I want from DE, more than any other piece of information, is how they reached the conclusion that the proposal they have come up with is the best solution above all others. 

Edited May 10, 2015 by DJ_Redwire

[varais]

it seems that behind that "changing starchart again" is faar no concept from anybody at DE nor a unity in the team where they agree

 

i need more information about and right now i would be pleased for the other old starchart, i loved it, it was spacy, the view was like from a certain kind of base-station out in the vast open space

 

this coloured bubbles which appeared look modern and trendy but for me they are faar of the feeling i have had in warframe as i started with the former starchart

 

i never was thinking about a limitation, i dont wanna have the feeling space closes down when i have to protect a universe because of whatever thoughts about missions etc.

 

i need space in a game, if it becomes tight i cant play it ... i loose interest ... )))

im puzzled ... not enough information to think about but i like a few comments in this thread

 

as mentioned by another or smth like this: i would give better rewards in general at a lot of nodes and people will play them =)

 

dont give me the feeling you have no general concept about THE WHOLE WARFRAME UNIVERSE =)

 

weapons, lill changes, underwater tilesets, warframes, void, prime stuff, archwing, you are good in that, but i miss your clean clear open concept of the "whole warframe universe" and where to go with

 

please, DE, dont tighten space ... in real, universe is expanding and evolving continously, the basement of space is joy ... =)))))

Edited May 10, 2015 by varais

[vaugahn]

I'm willing to bet Parkour 2.0 is gonna be a big flop, just like starmap 3.0

 

What a great attitude.

[Cubewano]

DE told us they would reduce the grind.  They increased it.  We said there is too much RNG.  They increased it.  We said we hated mission keys.  They gave us more keyed missions.  Star Grindngesus 9000 is more grind, more rng, more keys, plus whatever other unannounced nerfs they can get away with (Trojan Nerf Horse also part of their MO).

 

There is no lack of clarity here.  They clearly said random missons and crafted missions.  We already have random missions and crafted missions. and we've been complaining about it for a long time.  We already know what they want because we already have it and when we asked for less of it, we got more of it.

 

People might say, "The grind ain't so bad, x, y, z ain't so bad."  The reason it's not as bad as it could be, and was, is because we pushed back.  But each time DE upped the grind, the rng, number of keyed missions, we pushed back until they reduced the grind, the rng, etc.

 

If you don't push back, you get steam rolled.  If you wait and see, you will not like what you see.  That's just the way it goes.

^sums up my feelings to an accurate degree

[vaugahn]

Why does this issue need to be any more complicated than some rather simple cleaning of redundancies and redistribution/dispersion of rewards? 

 

From what I gather based on what's been said by Steve, they want to make it more of an experience. The star chart right now could be a spreadsheet you click on and it wouldn't make any functional difference, it seems like they want to make it more interactive and more interesting to progress along.

 

Which is a good idea, but that spreadsheet aspect needs to stick around for people who want it.

[Fionntan]

 

TL;DR

Well I read the last line, and uhhh, you can choose what mission to play without keys.

They are removing the current bland and diluted illusion of choice, nuf said.

Steve mentioned crafted missions though so sounded suggestion for keys... granted nothing is set in stone. 

[KvotheTheArcane1]

What a great attitude.

Hey, just going off what past experience has taught me. Melee 2.0? Damage 2.0? That godawful UI 2.0? Why would parkour 2.0 be any different?

 

It's better than optimism based on nothing.

Edited May 10, 2015 by KvotheTheArcane1

[Spindle99]

Crafted missions.

 

The idea of the new 20 node star chart is to push players together, if these crafted missions were easy to make that would counter that.

 

As such you can bet they won't be easy to make at all.

[(PSN)thehoocodfather]

As far as I see, the changes are about one thing, ensuring new players dont have to grind through every node in the solar system - because most new players quit before they ever finish doing it.

 

The aim is to allow new players to finish the nodes quicker and easier and thereby incentivise them to play the game instead of quitting the game before they finally finish unlocking the solar system.