Proposed Starchart Changes [Megathread]

[DJ_Redwire]

Let's not sugarcoat the problems with our current starchart just because the alternative might be worse.

 

I may have missed some posts, because this is a rather large thread after all, but I have yet to see a lot of people saying that they feel the current system and everything we have in it is flawless and needs no change whatsoever. Quite the opposite really. I think if there is one thing that EVERYONE can agree on, it's that there is in fact issue(s) with the starchart that need to be addressed. The only dissent being in how to handle it and to what extent.

[vaugahn]

some days I can go for an Earth Defense, and other days I cannot. 

 

That's pretty much what I was getting at. I don't want RNG-determined missions either, but something does need to change on our starchart and resisting all change because the first thing we heard was bad is just being silly.

 

OK, which (faction, mission, level range) tupples should get thrown out?  Let's get rid of Hive because "no one" ever plays that. 568 missions left.  Go on everybody, let's gore some Oxes, then go back to Draco for some rep.

 

Who said we were going to get rid of anything? Going from 5 Hive nodes to 1 Hive node isn't getting rid of Hive. In fact, it will quite literally make no difference.

 

only a few nodes are favored by DE with good rewards and the rest are crap.

 

You're right. Defense and Survival are the only good nodes. Everyone uses them. You've still yet to explain why we need 3 identical copies of the same Defense and Survival missions on every planet.

[Krion112]

That's pretty much what I was getting at. I don't want RNG-determined missions either, but something does need to change on our starchart and resisting all change because the first thing we heard was bad is just being silly.

But see, why should we let DE put in place a system that is worse than the existing system and only solved one or two issues, when if we complain and give our feedback now, we could build a system that worked right off the bat instead of DE having to go back and fix huge issues later?

 

I mean, shouldn't we be aiming for something that immediately works? I mean, it's never going to be perfect, but there's definitely plans that are better than what DE's trying to do.

[(PSN)meyerclan]

Wow. Yall are getting feisty. Time to go kill some Grineer. Perhaps that will calm yall down. Sheesh. Offer an idea and torn to pieces. I'm just fellow Tenno on your side.

[kilerskull]

Kilerskull, we're in an uproar over this:

(Notes thanks to AM-Bunny: https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/454266-devstream-52-overview/)

 

DE wants to stop us from selecting whatever mission type we want when we want because the Star Chart is full of ghost towns (that DE created) and only a few nodes worth playing (that DE created).

 

DE's solution to only a few nodes being worth playing (thanks to DE) is to RNGesus and key wall everything, rather than just make everything worth playing and giving us a convenient means to manage the choices we wish to make.

 

I played the game for a few months and then left. I felt beaten and bored because of all the randomness. No matter how much time and effort I put in, it didnt matter because it was all random. Planets and their so many of the same, boring levels were empty and bad as well. I was looking for them to change it up, but as expected, they took the easy way out.

[ThePresident777]

Getting rid of identicle nodes would make a difference.  It would mean fewer nodes to waste time unlocking and fewer nodes to waste time mousing over, trying to find a squad.  But we would still be wasting time unlocking nodes and mousing over nodes to find a squad because DE would fill the majority of them with crap rewards anyway and mousing over nodes is a horrible way to find fun even if they all had good rewards.  And RNGessus Grind 9000 doesn't solve the problem at all.  It just kills any desire to play.

 

Here is the problem:

0)  Nodes full of crap rewards.

1)  Clicking into and mousing over maps to find missions.

 

Here is the solution, the exact opposite of the problem:

0)  All nodes are rewarding

1)   Node filter so we don't have to see the nodes (i.e. game play) we don't care about.

Edited May 11, 2015 by ThePresident777

[-dicht.ThanksFrost-]

(PS4)obsidiancurse, on 11 May 2015 - 04:37 AM, said:

McDonald's head office, the boardroom.
Chairma : gentlemen, ladies, I have called this emergency meeting because I have noticed something seriously wrong with our menu.
Puzzled looks and muttering all round.
Vice chairman: in what way sir? It seems fairly diverse, with most bases covered, something for everyone?
Chairman: that's the problem, it's too diverse.
More puzzled looks
Vice chairman: too diverse sir?
Chairman: yes I'm worried that when a new first time customer walks into a store they wlll be overwhelmed.
Vice chairman: well research shows that people like choice and our wide selection is generly regarded as an advantage over our competitors. I suppose we could get the art guys to tweak the menus a bit and train the staff to point newcomers in the right direction.
Chairman: you are not thinking drasticly enough.
Vice chairman: I'm not?
Chairman: not by a longshot, I propose reducing the menu somewhat, to avoid clutter.
Vice chairman: well I suppose we could prune a little, what do you suggest?
Chairman: well currently we have around 50 sandwiches, I want that reduced to 5.
All: 5!?!?!?
Chairman: yes 5. Research shows that sales mostly consist of the top 5 sandwiches anyway.
Vice chairman: but what about choice? Sure it's understandable that our long term customers know what they want and go straight to their favourites but even so, to reduce the menu to just these top 5....
Chairman: whoa whoa whoa, who said the top 5?
Vice chairman: but you said...
Chairman: I said 5, not top 5. No my plan is to rotate the selection.
All: rotate?!?!?!
Chairman: yes, our sandwich designers have come up with too many great ideas, I'm not going to discard them just becomes no one actually buys them.
Stunned silence.
Vice chairman: so what happens if I fancy say a Big Mac one day and it's not on rotation?
Chairman: tough, you have a veggie burger instead.
Vice chairman: and if I don't like veggie burgers?
Chairman: again, tough, you should like them, they're good for you.
Vice chairman. I not sure that's the attitude we should take to our customers?
Chairman. How about we throw them a bone, for people who are fussy and won't just eat what we tell them, we have some sort of create a sandwich system so for ten quid we make what you want if you are prepared to wait an extra 20 minutes?
Vice chairman: but that's much more inconvenient and expensive them our current system! People are not going to like this.
Chairman: oh I am fully aware that the customers won't like it, I'm still going to do it. Right, shall we vote?
Vice chairman: can I please just propose another quick vote first?
Chairnan: of course.
Vice chairman: all those who have lost faith in the chair please raise your hands.
All raise hands

:)

Breaking news devs get tenno'd by ps4 gamer

[Rakosta_Kai]

That's pretty much what I was getting at. I don't want RNG-determined missions either, but something does need to change on our starchart and resisting all change because the first thing we heard was bad is just being silly.

 

 

While I don't -entirely-  disagree with your sentiments....

 

Everyone should be against a proposed idea if that idea is worse than the currently implemented system.

 

DE is anything but moderate, and this current idea is an excellent example of that lack of moderation.

 

Before we get into the inevitable discussion of WiPs and Whiteboards...

 

This change was hinted at more than a month ago now (almost 2 )and the looks on the faces in that devstream told me to suspect it was a change that players wouldn't like.

 

If Devstreams were truly whiteboards:

The Devs wouldn't bother being so coy or cryptic about the issues.

The Devs would be apprised of the questions before the Devstream and able to speak to them intelligently without dissembling or creating distractions (completely disrespectful).

They would regularly solicit our input by asking for relevant insights/feedback.

Absent that, they would simply present the problem and ask for ideas to resolve it.

 

All of those things represent methods of addressing design/development/implementation challenges.

...Doesn't matter if it's agile/scrum/whiteboard/legal pad/ steno book.

 

I give all recognition to Rebecca for trying to steer things in those streams in meaningful directions though.

Likewise having to manage spin after them...

I don't envy her position.

 

To be clear...

I'm all for the ideas of reducing bloat on the star charts ( I think many are). It helps foster the notion that the game has a vibrant and busy population... Provided it is done in a responsible, considerate, and moderate manner.

 

I'm totally against DE's currently suggested changes as their utter lack of moderate or considerate design removes choice and player self direction. 

[AlexanderJ]

IMO I think it would be best to instead of decreasing the total amount of nodes to twenty do 15 or so for each planet, Give each node a reward that would cycle daily ( or weekly test and see which players favor more.) and try and bring it to life with attacks much like invasions just more alive. This I approve greatly of now..the whole reducing it to twenty in total is just a bit crazy :3 I'd like more choice than Im fine with giving all the nodes I play today up for a more alive and fun system but taking away all the planets and the choice we have to visit them isn't the best way to go. Shrink the map by decreasing the node count on each planet and have each planet be unique in its own way with its own alerts and story.

[vaugahn]

Everyone should be against a proposed idea if that idea is worse than the currently implemented system.

 

Well, yeah. That goes without saying. I mean obviously different people have different ideas of what is worse, but yeah.

 

What I'm getting at is that we shouldn't snap back to "current system is just fine don't touch anything" because DE tossed a bad idea at us, which is what I've been seeing around here. You know, all the "if it ain't broke don't fix it" posts and stuff like that. 

 

Here is the solution, the exact opposite of the problem:

0)  All nodes are rewarding

1)   Node filter so we don't have to see the nodes (i.e. game play) we don't care about.

 

What does this have to do with redundant nodes?

Edited May 11, 2015 by vaugahn

[Urlan]

I can agree that the devstreams are not treated like a whiteboard in my opinion either. I also was impressed Rebecca managed to get any of the questions answered. A change like this is not something that is or should be taken lightly.

[ThePresident777]

What do redundant nodes have to do with https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/454266-devstream-52-overview/'>"you will no longer be able to select whichever mission type you want, whenever you want;" and "player made quests"?

Edited May 11, 2015 by ThePresident777

[AoiiToori]

The only change that will happen is that instead of having 1 Draco, we'll have 1 Draco! Oh wait...

[vaugahn]

What do redundant nodes have to do with "you will no longer be able to select whichever mission type you want, whenever you want;" and "player made quests"?

 

Nothing. We're not talking about that.

 

We're talking about you explaining why we need duplicate missions on every single planet, as per:

 

We do need all those missions.

[ArbitUHM]

I'm fairly excited about this. If they set up something similar to the syndicate system i.e. randomly generated missions but instead of standing, they gave useful, relevant rewards like forma, R5 cores, rare resources, etc I will be all over it. Playing a hijack mission for a couple neurodes or some cores on a node that has a ton of people playing sounds awesome. If they keep the same sort of rewards that are currently on the starchart... that's gonna be bad.

 

Whatever they do though, I'm just happy they're doing something. The starchart, with its hundreds of nodes that nobody plays on and the players' reliance on the void for challenge and rewards, has always seemed kinda halfassed to me, which is a bad thing given it's the primary means by which we access missions. 

[ThePresident777]

Exactly, lately some people here are not talking about the problem;  not talking about the subject of this thread.

 

This is what the thread is about; this is the problem we are talking about, DE's erroneous notion that the following is a solution to (DE created) Star Chart Ghostowns:

New Starchart
• Hoping to appear in U17
• 300 nodes are being condensed to 20 nodes
• There may be time-based instances, such as Vor appearing temporarily, dropping different things each time
• Similar to Alerts, but hopefully not something that punishes players for sleeping
• There will be some removal of player choice - you will no longer be able to select whichever mission type you want, whenever you want; hopefully this will be better for the game overall
• Re-viewing player made quests again and designing the starchart so that these will be able to fit into it; hopefully this will be the answer to players that resent the removal of choice

(Notes thanks to AM-Bunny: https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/454266-devstream-52-overview/)

 

DE's solution is the problem.  The problem, the reason for the ghosttowns is that DE made ~420 crap reward nodes and they decided for us what the ~20 good reward nodes are, instead of us making that decision for ourselves.  The problem is that when they favored certain nodes for good rewards, they already threw away the other ~420 other nodes, except they're just now getting around to cleaning up the messy bits; while telling us that random missions (which we already have) and keyed missions ( which we already have) are the solution to DE created Star Chart Ghosttowns. 

 

The solution to Star Chart Ghosttowns, the solution to DE telling us which nodes matter to us, is:

0)  No Star Chart Ghosttowns, make all nodes rewarding, not just Draco for rep, Sechura for credits, .....

1)  Let us pick which nodes matter to us.  Stop making that choice for us.  Give us a node filter so we don't have to see nodes that we do not care about.

Edited May 12, 2015 by ThePresident777

[vaugahn]

Exactly, lately some people here are not talking about the problem

 

That person would be you, by that logic. 

 

 the reason for the ghosttowns is that DE made ~420 crap reward nodes and they decided for us what the ~20 good reward nodes are, instead of us making that decision for ourselves. 

 

The reason so many nodes are abandoned is because they are redundant. Nobody will play the 4 defenses a planet has if there's a Dark Sector. Having duplicates splits apart your playerbase and makes lightly traveled nodes look even emptier. 

[ArbitUHM]

Exactly, lately some people here are not talking about the problem;  not talking about the subject of this thread.

 

This is what the thread is about; this is the problem we are talking about, DE's erroneous notion that the following is a solution to (DE created) Star Chart Ghostowns:

(Notes thanks to AM-Bunny: https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/454266-devstream-52-overview/)

 

DE's solution is the problem.  The problem, the reason for the ghosttowns is that DE made ~420 crap reward nodes and they decided for us what the ~20 good reward nodes are, instead of us making that decision for ourselves.  The problem is that when they favored certain nodes for good rewards, they already threw away the other ~420 other nodes, except they're just now getting around to cleaning up the messy bits; while telling us that random missions (which we already have) and keyed missions ( which we already have) are the solution to DE created Star Chart Ghosttowns. 

 

The solution to Star Chart Ghosttowns, the solution to DE telling us which nodes matter to us, is:

0)  No Star Chart Ghosttowns, make all nodes rewarding, not just Draco for rep, Sechura for credits, .....

1)  Let us pick which nodes matter to us.  Stop making that choice for us.  Give us a node filter so we don't have to see nodes that we do not care about.

Yes, why not make hundreds and hundreds of nodes all balanced, interesting, and rewarding and yet at the same time somehow manage to not chop up the playerbase into tiny fragments?

 

If the game could do my taxes and wash my car, that would be cool, too.

[(PSN)WiiConquered]

That person would be you, by that logic. 

 

 

The reason so many nodes are abandoned is because they are redundant. Nobody will play the 4 defenses a planet has if there's a Dark Sector. Having duplicates splits apart your playerbase and makes lightly traveled nodes look even emptier.

That's only half the reason. The other half is that some of these missions have no purpose from a progression standpoint, so then only the missions that have better rewards get played. Before Interception got T4 keys it wasn't played much because it was more difficult (though this was due to an error on DE's part) and because it had no good rewards Defense didn't have already.

All the duplicate missions should be removed; no one, including ThePresident, is disputing that. The only real debate is in what way and by how much (and even that is fairly one-sided).

What DE needs to do first is remove the duplicate nodes and improve the rewards on many of the others. From there, they could pursue or at least consider combining some higher level missions; similar to the Rescue/Spy missions in some of the quests and the Sabotage/Defense mission on Earth, we could have nodes using parts of multi-objective missions in logical and non-random orders; things like Rescue, Spy, Capture, Mobile Defense, Sabotage, and Exterminate could all work for this system. They should have slightly increased rewards, but not enough to completely eclipse the (slightly shorter and more focused) singular versions of missions. This allows them to further reduce the nodes without wiping away the mission structure. At this point, it would be feasible to have ~100 nodes, more than enough considering player count without absolutely ending player choice. Also, players would have more ways of getting the rewards they wanted, allowing more ways for players to avoid grinding.

The next choice I would take if I were DE would be to change the Void key system: players would have to

1. have a basic "Void key" that fits in equipment and works as it does currently.

2. Complete normal missions at any level and non-endless node.

3. Place the key into a Void Portal, which would allow players to transfer to the Void. At this point, players could choose to stay or leave similar to defense, and this would allow newer players to have a consistent stream of higher level players going through their nodes. The type of Void missions these would transfer to would be missions of the same/similar type and level. Missions that don't have Void variants, Deception and Rescue (and maybe Spy), would lead to the Survival and Interception and Defense missions. This would bring a huge increase in people playing starchart missions.

The issue I'd have with the above suggestion is time, although I think offering Void Caches (and a chance at more parts) in all missions would make up for this in most players' minds, if the fact that they could choose the exact void mission they wanted didn't already make up for the time lost.

Then DE could take some of the aspects from the current system: alerts and Invasions could behave more like this system they're suggesting, being higher stakes, bigger reward (usually credit or something consumable) missions that would have two level options: normal (with lesser rewards, but good for new players) and level 35-50. Now there's arguably more choice than before, as high level players would have the opportunity to play early tilesets at high levels sometimes and get more rewards for doing so.

There are definitely flaws with the above suggestions that people can and will pick out, but I think it would solve more issues than the last suggestion we heard from DE. Also, I think it follows the criteria in Steve's manifesto as well.

PS. Make the starchart have the node connection system of the old one, with the improved look of the planets the new one provides. Make these nodes feel more like actual parts of the planets they're on while showing a clear progression path, and I think things would be great.

[Chainfox]

Lack of choice aside, I'm excited for the idea of randomized missions.

 

I get burned out on warframe far too easily, for obvious reasons: If you're playing warframe, chances are you are playing the same node over and over again. You're doing the exact same thing, over and over. 

 

I hate that. The devs obviously hate that. And yet in warframe's current form, the game encourages it. 

 

If I want to play a mission besides draco or one of the other farming spots, I have to do it alone. Because everybody else is at the farming spots, doing the same missions again and again. 

 

I'll happily embrace any changes that let me play more than just a tiny slice of the content without being totally alone and not getting rewarded anything worthwhile. Please bring starchart 3.0 asap 

 

just remove everything that isn't a "farm node" make every single node a farm node. core farm node. mod farm node. xp farm node. and so on. people are afraid you'll take away their farm nodes that's all

[Rakosta_Kai]

Exactly, lately some people here are not talking about the problem;  not talking about the subject of this thread.

 

This is what the thread is about; this is the problem we are talking about, DE's erroneous notion that the following is a solution to (DE created) Star Chart Ghostowns:

(Notes thanks to AM-Bunny: https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/454266-devstream-52-overview/)

 

 

That person would be you, by that logic. 

 

 

The reason so many nodes are abandoned is because they are redundant. Nobody will play the 4 defenses a planet has if there's a Dark Sector. Having duplicates splits apart your playerbase and makes lightly traveled nodes look even emptier. 

 

 

Actually, both of you are addressing real issues and both are relevant.

They just aren't the same...

 

Missions haven't been created equal since they halved the mod drop rates forever ago.

That division had done nothing but grow since then

 

Now... all missions aren't created equally from a rewards standpoint...

Neither are all mobs.

 

I want the bloat gone, but I also want to see a rewarding gameplay experience implemented where I can expect decent rewards regardless of what mission I play.

 

Flatten the reward/loot structure and then let's figure out what's fun. Make all nodes rewarding and equally rewarding for their type.

 

...Then let's handle the bloat.

 

Because they could remove the redundant mission nodes tonight and it would be foolish to suspect that rewarding mission nodes wouldn't get cut with them.

Warframe is just that kinda game...

 

I don't see that scenario increasing public participation.

 

So both issues need to be addressed...  Missions need to be fun and rewarding.

[ra9una]

For real, no instigation on my part: I'm looking forward to the rage. I want to see this idea crash, mainly because it scares me, but if it is going to happen, I want the community to put on the pressure to make it happen right.

[(PSN)WiiConquered]

For real, no instigation on my part: I'm looking forward to the rage. I want to see this idea crash, mainly because it scares me, but if it is going to happen, I want the community to put on the pressure to make it happen right.

If you root for DE to fail you don't have a place here, frankly.

[Hypernaut1]

For real, no instigation on my part: I'm looking forward to the rage. I want to see this idea crash, mainly because it scares me, but if it is going to happen, I want the community to put on the pressure to make it happen right.

wow, so you would actually PREFER forum drama over this new system actually being great for the game? This speaks a lot about the fear mongers. It seems like many of you just ENJOY the drama and spread misinformation to keep it going high.

[(XBOX)LordPuck]

Back to HOST MIgration.

 

W/o DS( instances ), I cant think of a way to help stabilize it.

 

??? thoughts ???