Is Valk Too Tanky?

[TaylorsContraction]

I've played against a lot of Valks and I noticed that they're pretty tanky and my mag didn't fair too well. So I equipped value Valkyr myself and saw the light of Nef Anyo. She so tanky, I can spanky everyone and survive. But here'sthe thing.

I encounter anyone that isn't a Bali Valk, I literally stood still while shooting the person, this making myself an easy target (assuming they aren't using a bow). Every engagement where it's a straight out damage exchange I won unless volt used his 1 in addition. That's pretty crazy when you think about it (and actually do it). Mags, Rhinos, Volts, Nyxs, Embers all fell before my stationary Valk (without warcry mind you). Now unlike most frames her kit isn't so great.

Rip lining players just does a pulled knock down and any allied enemy in the path is knocked down as well. But with handspring they get back up before your animation is over so you can't take advantage of it. Thus rip line is just a mobility tool.

Her 2 is great but requires 75 energy (why not move it to 3?). I have no idea what her 3 does if anything, and 4 is great too. Basically she lacks that cheesy slot 1 ability that does easy flat damage.

A lot of people are switching to Valk because like me they noticed she outtanks everyone. Like me they must have gotten frustrated by the fact that even though you pumped her with more lead than she pumped you, you still lost the engagement.

Yesterday I randomly ended up on a team with 4 valks going up against another 2 valks + 2 non-valks and it was pretty much a stomp with most deaths suffered by the non valks. We're looking at 2/20, 0/16 kind of scores here.

Anyway, maybe I'm the only one who feels this is an issues.

My alteration is simple.

2 costs 50 energy and gives valk armor equivalent to what she would have now with warcry on (900 armor?). Does not have the slowing effect, duration 10-15 seconds. So valk can be a tanky beast, just not all the time.

Reduce her armor without warcry

Move slowing effect from 2 to 3 and make it cost 50 energy also. Now valk must choose, be tanky or slow someone down.

These suggestions may not be that good, but if you feel she's too tanky I'm happy to listen to others. Maybe you think she isn't too tanky, that's fine too.

[Thalahssalyst]

5 Damage on some primary weapons...
3 Damage on some secondary weapons...
"Valkyr is Fine" <- Players who like Valkyr
Excuse? Use Lex/P and Latron/P its nice against Valks... (..?)
I dont know why De put 600 armor on warframe with current weapon damage... If Rhino feels like a tank with 190 armor...
600 armor+fast speed+high stamina+Melee Skills+Hysteria 1 shot... O i forgot she have 50 shields so his excesive armor its balanced (..?)

Im still waiting for something that dont force the player to use 1 loadout for 1 warframe...

[WingedCrusade]

Don't touch my kitty frame! ene

No but seriously, Valkyr's fine. There's no need to touch her. She's /made/ to be tanky.

Although since this is talking about PVP, as long as no changes affect her out of PvP, then sure, balance her to match everyone else and be fair...

But PvE? No touchy touchy!

I'd change your title to include "-in PvP" though. You've actually not referenced it once. Just hinted at it.

Edited May 26, 2015 by WingedCrusade

[WernerShadow]

Don't even start this be quite valkyr does not need your help she is perfection

[Kontrollo]

5 Damage on some primary weapons...

3 Damage on some secondary weapons...

"Valkyr is Fine" <- Players who like Valkyr

Excuse? Use Lex/P and Latron/P its nice against Valks... (..?)

I dont know why De put 600 armor on warframe with current weapon damage... If Rhino feels like a tank with 190 armor...

600 armor+fast speed+high stamina+Melee Skills+Hysteria 1 shot... O i forgot she have 50 shields so his excesive armor its balanced (..?)

Im still waiting for something that dont force the player to use 1 loadout for 1 warframe...

 

Damage numbers alone mean nothing if you don't include the firerate as well. DPS is what counts.

 

Valkyr is fine - and I don't even play her all that much. You should do some calculations with Puncture damage to see what I mean.

 

...

 

A lot of people are switching to Valk because like me they noticed she outtanks everyone. Like me they must have gotten frustrated by the fact that even though you pumped her with more lead than she pumped you, you still lost the engagement.

...

 

She doesn't, unless your enemies all use Impact or Slash weapons. Rhino and Frost are overall the better balanced tanks. These misconceptions keep popping up on this forum and I really wonder why that is. Maybe because the Strun Wraith is the go-to OP gun right now? I'm not sure.

[VampirePirate]

Seems to be a thread like this at least 3 times per day.  None of them seem to understand the warframe at all.

[Thalahssalyst]

Damage numbers alone mean nothing if you don't include the firerate as well. DPS is what counts.

 

Valkyr is fine - and I don't even play her all that much. You should do some calculations with Puncture damage to see what I mean.

 

 

 

So doing that damage I say its okay in valkyr because dps? Because valkyr its not going to move when someone its shooting at she...

20 damage weapon-8damage on valk

9 damage weapon-3damage on valk...

And if we going to start about IPS, that its not a problem with other warframes like Frost and Rhino... I dont know why this have to be the exception with valkyr...

 

[Rhaenxys]

Most of her abilities are near useless except warcry and in certain situations hysteria with her augment, her base shields are terrible low, that means she would be taking health damage in most situations.

 

Chroma is actually more tanky than Valkyr considering he has 100 shields instead of 50 and has acces to vex armor for 10 seconds now, however Chroma feels like is an easier target because Valkyr has better mobility.

 

I personally have more trouble taking down a Rhino with iron skin and his stats than a Valkyr.

[Rakshal]

Valkyr is balanced by the fact that she has a sub par power set. Her tankiness is also determined by what weapons you use. For example, my Dera seems to shred Valkyr, but Frost, Rhino, and even Ember seem to just soak up bullets.

[Kontrollo]

So doing that damage I say its okay in valkyr because dps? Because valkyr its not going to move when someone its shooting at she...

20 damage weapon-8damage on valk

9 damage weapon-3damage on valk...

And if we going to start about IPS, that its not a problem with other warframes like Frost and Rhino... I dont know why this have to be the exception with valkyr...

 

If a gun fires 100 rounds per second with 8 damage each, then it's obvious the gun is better than everything we have at our disposal right now. That's the point I wanted to make.

 

And yes, 20 => 8 is actually not a bad number against a Valkyr. With neutral damage against 600 armour you should see numbers that are 1/3 as high as listed (and that would be 6.67). However, if the weapon is low on DPS even before using it against a Valkyr then yes, you'll probably have trouble against a Valkyr, too. But that's not a good argument, now is it?

 

600 armour means against neutral damage you multiply her health by 3. 100 => 300. Add 50 shields and she sits at 350 effective HP (EHP). Frost/Rhino: 100 * 1.63 => 163 + 150 shields = 313 EHP. It's not all that much lower. Now try to do these calculations with the boni Puncture damage has against armour, and you'll see how much worse off a Valkyr is compared to Frost/Rhino.

Edited May 26, 2015 by Kontrollo

[Thalahssalyst]

I will resume that all you have say on this:

Try to kill a Valkyr with your Dex Furis while she are flying out there... or with your Soma prime...

That calculations are Unnecesary with my point, i dont see no one on current gamemplay doing that calculations while playing, there is no "why" i have to that with other warframes, why a OP warframe make this problem if we are asking for balance?

And still dont understand why you make that calculations to make a valid point on "valkyr is fine" while you need to equip a Latron/P and Lex/P just for Valk... if this is balanced, its not supposed to ALL weapons work the same against all warframes?

I remember this was not a problem before valkyr was on game

[Odik]

My own experience : 4x4, 1x100 game modes
Valkyr 50 shields 100 hp - tanky to weapons 1x1? May be... but when you are 1x4... not actually (sweet evolution force ppl to ''zerg'' and actually its right)

Powers powers... low hp/shields pool making sad all valkyr players when they eat cheap/instagib abilities. 

Everyone avoid combat at any cost and coptering till they die irl for energy to instagib you with thier 4st ability or combine cheap 25 no need to aim ability with gun to wreck you .I am truely hate that and prefer to not burn my brains with such stupid way to play this game mode.

Valkyr rip line : sucks ,hard to hit coptering sht and any melee air swing countering this ability at movment - trash

warcry - 75 energy cost but ultraslow enemy ... its fine and not, this ability not instakilling everyone around you , so its not that op cry about nerfs.

Hysteria.. once had enough energy to use it and used on 60 hp ... and im DIED because while i was casting this volt rekt me with 1+bratonblablabla

paralysis... do nothing , at pvp this ability just doesnt work

And i want to add to cast ANY ability you have to STAY at one place making you EASIEST target.

Just abit about pvp in games - everyone must be have same chances , same gear ,stats ,etc . Dont got my point ?

People must have same frames/weapons unlocked for pvp , in other words new players MUST have SAME frames and same weapons .

Prime frames SHOUDNT have thier PRIME BONUSES and should have cosmetic effect only .

But game would die before anyone would understand that.

[Gelkor]

When and if IPS is actually taken out of PvP (Like it was already supposed to have been), then Valkyr's tankyness will change.  She laughs at impact and slash damage currently because of the way IPS works, while puncture actually works. 

[Kontrollo]

I will resume that all you have say on this:

Try to kill a Valkyr with your Dex Furis while she are flying out there... or with your Soma prime...

That calculations are Unnecesary with my point, i dont see no one on current gamemplay doing that calculations while playing, there is no "why" i have to that with other warframes, why a OP warframe make this problem if we are asking for balance?

And still dont understand why you make that calculations to make a valid point on "valkyr is fine" while you need to equip a Latron/P and Lex/P just for Valk... if this is balanced, its not supposed to ALL weapons work the same against all warframes?

I remember this was not a problem before valkyr was on game

 

You're right, I see no one doing these calculations, either. Instead people create threads here saying how OP she is. Sorry, but if you're unwilling to figure out how I/P/S damage actually works against shields, health and armour, then I simply can't take your opinion seriously. Actually, you don't even have to figure it out yourself, but you should listen to advice where it is given.

 

I didn't make these rules, and I'm not saying they're good or they're bad. They're a fact of Warframe PvP you just have to deal with right now, and if you don't want to do that, you shouldn't be surprised that an enemy Valkyr has the upper hand over you.

 

Always bring a Puncture-heavy weapon to deal with Chroma and Valkyr. You have 3 slots for that. If you don't, it's entirely your own fault.

[oinkah]

My only gripe with Valkyr is that she singlehandedly kills any incentive to use non puncture weaponry. She renders way too many guns nearly unusable.

PvP developers kinda put themselves in a corner, as they stated that they will not change base frame stats. So that 600 armor is here to stay. IPS values are also about to make an official return.

[Gelkor]

PvP developers kinda put themselves in a corner, as they stated that they will not change base frame stats. So that 600 armor is here to stay. IPS values are also about to make an official return.

 

 

They are?  I thought they were supposed to be removed, they are only still here because of some lurking problem they haven't been able to pin down yet.

[Thalahssalyst]

You're right, I see no one doing these calculations, either. Instead people create threads here saying how OP she is. Sorry, but if you're unwilling to figure out how I/P/S damage actually works against shields, health and armour, then I simply can't take your opinion seriously. Actually, you don't even have to figure it out yourself, but you should listen to advice where it is given.

 

I didn't make these rules, and I'm not saying they're good or they're bad. They're a fact of Warframe PvP you just have to deal with right now, and if you don't want to do that, you shouldn't be surprised that an enemy Valkyr has the upper hand over you.

 

Always bring a Puncture-heavy weapon to deal with Chroma and Valkyr. You have 3 slots for that. If you don't, it's entirely your own fault.

How I say, it was not necesary to make this type of calculations before valkyr was on game, and if we are going to talk about the threads, remember about that threads complaining about melee be too OP? We dont have Spin damage multiplier so...

No one can take seriously a thread when someone have a different opinion, and I dont know "why" you make that calculations, but here we are.

 

We already know, all who come here on forums, valkyrs its destroying the "balance" meta that warframe pvp need, like daikyu... One shoot things and valkyr with his 600 armor, its not balance, or is it?

 

So, because 600 armor on warframe, we are forced to choose puncture weapons, because all players are starting to play with valkyr, because all the people who play pvp, know how op she is...

 

Edited May 26, 2015 by Grimlock-

[Pythadragon]

They are?  I thought they were supposed to be removed, they are only still here because of some lurking problem they haven't been able to pin down yet.

 

devpost

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/462536-show-ips-in-conclave-arsenal-ui/?p=5164182

 

As opposed to this official Warframe news post:

https://warframe.com/news/building-warframe-warframes-mods-and-weapons-pvp-20

 

"Weapon selection in PvE varies depending on what kind of enemy players face. In PvP, damage types like Slash, Impact and Puncture are less balanced. 

In PvP 2.0, all weapons do flat damage instead of having their damage broken down into various types, removing procs that can bypass armor or force bleeds. Critical strikes have also been removed, replaced instead with a 1.5 damage multiplier on any headshot made. Further adjustments have been made to weapons on a per-case basis."

 

Clearly something changed in the development process.

[Gelkor]

devpost

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/462536-show-ips-in-conclave-arsenal-ui/?p=5164182

 

As opposed to this official Warframe news post:

https://warframe.com/news/building-warframe-warframes-mods-and-weapons-pvp-20

 

"Weapon selection in PvE varies depending on what kind of enemy players face. In PvP, damage types like Slash, Impact and Puncture are less balanced. 

In PvP 2.0, all weapons do flat damage instead of having their damage broken down into various types, removing procs that can bypass armor or force bleeds. Critical strikes have also been removed, replaced instead with a 1.5 damage multiplier on any headshot made. Further adjustments have been made to weapons on a per-case basis."

 

Clearly something changed in the development process.

 

Ah, I'll take that to mean that IPS values will be listed again in the arsenal until as yet time that they are properly (hopefully) removed from PvP.

 

*fingers crossed*

[rockscl]

IPS has to go imo, but this time for real, asking for the reinclude in the HUD was in the face of the fact: "they never went away, so lets us see it while we are picking weapons", it wasnt asked because people actually liked having IPS

[Kontrollo]

How I say, it was not necesary to make this type of calculations before valkyr was on game, and if we are going to talk about the threads, remember about that threads complaining about melee be too OP? We dont have Spin damage multiplier so...

No one can take seriously a thread when someone have a different opinion, and I dont know "why" you make that calculations, but here we are.

 

...

 

We had Chroma already, and I did the calculations to make informed statements and create loadouts that balance out the strengths and weaknesses of individual weapons. And you should, too, instead of crying nerf. I actually try to respect people's opinions when they're based on facts.

 

 

They are?  I thought they were supposed to be removed, they are only still here because of some lurking problem they haven't been able to pin down yet.

 

They were only ever removed from the UI, I'm afraid. People have figured that out a while ago here, and it was recently confirmed that they will be made visible again in the Arsenal. IPS damage calculations is the one thing that currently balances the highest armour numbers.

 

 

...

 

Clearly something changed in the development process.

 

We were promised access to elemental mods a while ago, as well. But if everyone could mod for Corrosive, people would come here saying how Valkyr is weaker than every other frame out there.

[Thalahssalyst]

We had Chroma already, and I did the calculations to make informed statements and create loadouts that balance out the strengths and weaknesses of individual weapons. And you should, too, instead of crying nerf. I actually try to respect people's opinions when they're based on facts.

Because we dont have a lot of statements on valkyr and how op it is...

Im sorry but im not crying, im trying to understand how people see balanced the problem we have right now. One shot things and 600 flying armored warframe... but well...

I think, I never created a topic asking for nerf, just making questions on "why this is like this" or "what if..."

[Kontrollo]

Because we dont have a lot of statements on valkyr and how op it is...

Im sorry but im not crying, im trying to understand how people see balanced the problem we have right now. One shot things and 600 flying armored warframe... but well...

I think, I never created a topic asking for nerf, just making questions on "why this is like this" or "what if..."

 

It kind of came across that way with how you worded it. To me it looked like you think Valkyr is too good and needs to have her armour lowered. Anyway, to close this off and give you a better idea, let me quote myself with an excerpt of another post of mine:

 

Bring a weapon with high Puncture damage like Boltors/Dera/Bows/Latrons/Lex, and Valkyr's armour loses a lot of its power. A weapon with pure Puncture damage would reduce her effective HP from 350 down to 200. That's quite a bit less than Volt Prime has (~283 without modifiers, ~278 against pure Puncture). So against weapons with high Puncture damage, she's probably worse off than Volt Prime and Oberon, and certainly loses against Frost and Rhino.

 

[Thalahssalyst]

As I say, focus your loadout just because one warframe... 

[Kontrollo]

As I say, focus your loadout just because one warframe... 

 

Warframe PvP is a rock/paper/scissors system in more ways than one. You don't have to focus your loadout, you have to balance it. One out of 3 weapons you bring should be heavy in Puncture.