People Cant Copter?so Lets Take Away Stamina Instead Of Teaching. (That Doom Thread)

[Mak_Gohae]

This is something that has been going on for a bit, Warframe having stuff taken away that provides any sort of challenge.

Recently some one made a thread about "manic rollers" which reminded of the original rollers before they were nerfed.

Mutalist Osprey, oh no, if i get caught in the cloud by not noticing the handful of tells the thing has i get poisoned!

Well, put on rejuv or anti toxin.

I dont wanna.

So they get nerfed.

Huh?

 

Basically every unit that is not a standard unit has gotten nerfed because it's too much to learn a new tactic. It's too much to create a faction specific mod config.

 

So now there are people that cant copter, which means they cant jump slide either, so kill stamina.

Huh?

 

Why are you not providing a better tutorial system?

Freaking add a room in the relay where new players are taught about the game. Make a noob only relay that has every room teaching something about the game. Make a noob relay what if you are high level and enter you have to answer questions or else you get kicked. Make that the requirement for that Helper of the Lotus thing.

 

Teach people to play the game instead of taking away every single challenge that the game has.

 

This is why i have been asking for a difficulty setting for a while. The game is getting boring. And it's not getting boring because i have been playing for a  while it get's boring because now everything is being boiled down to one path. I have to go out of my way to do crazy things to add a challenge.

 

We are getting all these primed mods, augment mods are getting their own slot because people dont want a sacrifice. Seriously, Warframe is not Left 4 Dead to any degree Warframe is straight up Dynasty Warriors or Gungrave where the point of the game is to kill as many people in row as possible to get the big combos.

 

 

 

[Anubias]

im just gonna leave this here
http://warframe.wikia.com/wiki/Nervos

[S.T.M.P.D]

Coptering is not a challenge. It's a thing you spam over and over to reduce challenge.

As for Stamina - it's not a challenge, either. In the words of Scott, "You sprint sprint sprint then you putter out and then you have to feather that last third or so."

Fun? Gods, no. Skill-based? Please. A major annoyance? Hell yes.

Besides, there's evidently a focus on skill coming in Parkour 2.0. The more mobility you build up, the faster you go, the better you are at navigating, the faster you can go, zipping through hordes of enemies like an actual ninja instead of... whatever the hell we are right now.

[Pixues]

remember the ballet legs frames were having when flying through the air.

Oh man, good times.

 

Edited May 30, 2015 by Pixues

[bejuizb]

I sense a ton of salt...and to be honest it just feels like you're pulling at straws Mak. Coptering is complete trash with how the physics of the game works. We're bloody warriors, not helicopter or buttsliding lootfarmers. The devs are making the mobility aspect of the game far better than the one dimensional super sticky piece of crud it currently is, and I suppose it really can't be in my rights to tell people to stop nitpicking because change is happening, but seriously. Change is good. It promotes thinking and subsequent change. And that change promotes interest, to a new degree. 

 

So yeah, they aren't changing stufff around to make it easier, seriously. Have you tried running around on missions without meta stuff or maxed mods? Or hell, without cheese frames? The game is quite difficult because it's horde mode...with ranged enemies. You've already got tons of stuff to worry about, if and only if you're not fully decked out or running cheese frames that require some looking at from a balance perspective.

[Orbister]

Coptering is not a challenge. It's a thing you spam over and over to reduce challenge.

As for Stamina - it's not a challenge, either. In the words of Scott, "You sprint sprint sprint then you putter out and then you have to feather that last third or so."

Fun? Gods, no. Skill-based? Please. A major annoyance? Hell yes.

Besides, there's evidently a focus on skill coming in Parkour 2.0. The more mobility you build up, the faster you go, the better you are at navigating, the faster you can go, zipping through hordes of enemies like an actual ninja instead of... whatever the hell we are right now.

"an actual ninja" everything you said gets destroyed by that nonsense comment, YOU DON'T KNOW ANY ACTUAL NINJA BECAUSE THEY DON'T EXIST! : D, they used to, but you weren't alive back then.

 

Also it doesn't matter if it's a challenge or not, the main problem is that people in this community tend to judge others and punish others if they don't behave like themselves, to each it's own, people want to copter? let them do it, people don't want to copter? then let them not do it. But gameplay gestapo needs to stop.

[Mak_Gohae]

im just gonna leave this here

http://warframe.wikia.com/wiki/Nervos

 

Nervos were awesome because it made people stick together and had folks prioritizing targets.

The only problem was that the Seeker had unlimited amounts of those things and they spammed them like crazy.

All DE needed to do to balance them was to have a delay on casting time but nooooo just take it away.

 

Coptering is not a challenge. It's a thing you spam over and over to reduce challenge.

 

 

Correct, which is weird to say stamina is getting taken away because of it.

 

As for Stamina - it's not a challenge, either. In the words of Scott, "You sprint sprint sprint then you putter out and then you have to feather that last third or so."

 

Fun? Gods, no. Skill-based? Please. A major annoyance? Hell yes.

 

Stamina does offer a bit of challenge since you need to manage it.

Did scott forget the mods in game to help with stamina? Did scott forget that he gave bonus to refill on stamina when no pressing it? All you need to do is jump/slide a bit and you'll end up at max in no time. This excuse only works on people that dont know how to jump\slider or copter and if they dont know why not teach them?

 

In Archwing it makes perfect sense because you are flying in freaking space and the point of it is maneuvering and distance.

Besides, there's evidently a focus on skill coming in Parkour 2.0. The more mobility you build up, the faster you go, the better you are at navigating, the faster you can go, zipping through hordes of enemies like an actual ninja instead of... whatever the hell we are right now.

 

So sliding all over the place bad, but jumping all over the place good. Good because all you have to do is press the jump button.....

 

I sense a ton of salt...and to be honest it just feels like you're pulling at straws Mak. Coptering is complete trash with how the physics of the game works. We're bloody warriors, not helicopter or buttsliding lootfarmers. The devs are making the mobility aspect of the game far better than the one dimensional super sticky piece of crud it currently is, and I suppose it really can't be in my rights to tell people to stop nitpicking because change is happening, but seriously. Change is good. It promotes thinking and subsequent change. And that change promotes interest, to a new degree. 

 

Given that you have to jump off things..... it's becoming tremendously more sticky.

 

So yeah, they aren't changing stufff around to make it easier, seriously. Have you tried running around on missions without meta stuff or maxed mods? Or hell, without cheese frames? The game is quite difficult because it's horde mode...with ranged enemies. You've already got tons of stuff to worry about, if and only if you're not fully decked out or running cheese frames that require some looking at from a balance perspective.

 

Dude, not everything i have has forma in it or even catalyst stuff. The most i formad something it twice.

The game is only difficult on higher levels because the enemies hit hard and have a lot of life, not because they, the units themselves, offer any sort of challenge. As long as you keep moving the game is really not that much of an issue when it comes to getting through it.

[Otaiken]

I'm sorry but... what the hell are you talking about?

 

People that know how to copter are the ones that are not worried about stamina, as you won't ever run out of stamina while coptering. And you don't need stamina for coptering. So how does removing stamina affect those "skilled" people that can copter? What the hell are you even talking about, your post makes no sense!

 

Also, what is skillful about stamina? At this poing it's a pointless mechanic... you either bypass it in your movement at which point it's irrelevant, or you don't at which point it's simply annoyance. You sprint and then you don't sprint for a while... wow call me Usain VonMcninja for solving this puzzle... this challenge. Management feat worthy od United Nations, you sure your talents wouldn't be better spent uniting the Eath under single banner?

 

Are you perhaps talking about melee and blocking? Cause in that case simply make stamina apply to just those things but stamina needs to gtfo of movement system.

 

I'm sorry OP but your post reads like incoherent rambling of a madman. This certainly is not the doompost... Steve deserves better than this.

 

But this might finally be the last nail in the coffin for you Mak... which should've come about 5k posts ago (for the sake of your and our sanity) in which case you can feel free to finally play ANYTHING else. I permit myself this bit of ad hominem as your post is just that bloody stupid.

Edited May 30, 2015 by LocoWithGun

[DSpite]

There is already jetpacks in the game. Hellions have them. They maneuver far better than we ever can, AND can make you hover.

 

The only reason we don't have jetpacks is "balance". The reason coptering stayed is because it does no real harm in actually having it.

 

You can talk all day about how it might be unrealistic, but we are not playing COD, we are playing a rather swarm heavy based game, and If I had to go back to walking around slowly all day, then I would damn also expect the game pace to be changed to fit.

Edited May 30, 2015 by DSpite

[Vargras]

Stamina does offer a bit of challenge since you need to manage it.

It doesn't. It really doesn't. If you copter, you use only a fraction of it each time you slide, and coptering itself is a whole two or three buttons -- it's the actual sequence and timing that throws off people. And if you don't copter, you instead just sprint until you do exactly what Scott said.

 

Scott hit the nail on the head when he said, "I hate that f*cking green bar". It's not an interesting system in the least. To veterans who know how to copter and all the little parkour tricks, it might as well not be there. For new players, it's a near-constant hindrance.

[notlamprey]

Ah, same old Mak.

 

I think I'm actually with Scott on this one. As it stands now, Stamina doesn't really do anything except trick new players into thinking it's important.

[Vargras]

Also,

augment mods are getting their own slot because people dont want a sacrifice.

No we aren't. Additionally,

 

Seriously, Warframe is not Left 4 Dead to any degree Warframe is straight up Dynasty Warriors or Gungrave where the point of the game is to kill as many people in row as possible to get the big combos.

Guess which one has more players?

 

Noooooooot Dynasty Warriors or Gungrave!

[Mak_Gohae]

Also it doesn't matter if it's a challenge or not, the main problem is that people in this community tend to judge others and punish others if they don't behave like themselves, to each it's own, people want to copter? let them do it, people don't want to copter? then let them not do it. But gameplay gestapo needs to stop.

 

Yeah, im cool with that.

The issue i have is that there this balancing method in the game where people have an issue with certain thing that the game provides several solutions for but they dont want to use any of those solutions so they complain.

 

I run out of ammo- bring ammo packs- i dont wanna.

Bleed proc sucks with no healing abilities- bring rejuv, health packs- i dont wanna

Mutalist Osprey cloud sucks- bring rejuv, anti toxin- i dont wanna

 

The best part is that people complain about all these mods and things, about how they are useless and need to gon while not using them when the need arises.

 

I'm sorry but... what the hell are you talking about?

 

Im talking about what i posted.

 

 

People that know how to copter are the ones that are not worried about stamina, as you won't ever run out of stamina while coptering. And you don't need stamina for coptering. So how does removing stamina affect those "skilled" people that can copter? What the hell are you even talking about, your post makes no sense!

 

The thread is about a discussion seen in the latest dev stream where the argument being put out for the removal of stamina is that people that cant copter so they run out and that slows the action when stamina runs out.

 

Im sorry, but, what the hell are you talking about?

 

 

Also, what is skillful about stamina? At this poing it's a pointless mechanic... you either bypass it in your movement at which point it's irrelevant, or you don't at which point it's simply annoyance. You sprint and then you don't sprint for a while... wow call me Usain VonMcninja for solving this puzzle... this challenge. Management feat worthy od United Nations, you sure your talents wouldn't be better spent uniting the Eath under single banner?

 

If managing something isn't a bit of a challenge then why have energy? Why have ammo? Why have shield? Health?

You manage all of that. Let's get rid of all of that, then.

 

And my point is that if it's running out for you then we should teach players to play the game. Teach them to use one of the options available in the game instead of killing it and adding a one-button press.

Is that bad? Teach people how to play the game?

Edited May 30, 2015 by Mak_Gohae

[S.T.M.P.D]

If managing something isn't a bit of a challenge then why have energy? Why have ammo? Why have shield? Health?

You manage all of that. Let's get rid of all of that, then.

 

And my point is that if it's running out for you then we should teach players to play the game. Teach them to use one of the options available in the game instead of killing it and adding a one-button press.

Is that bad? Teach people how to play the game?

1. There are things you should have to manage to provide challenge and things you shouldn't. Moving anywhere at a decent speed seems like something that shouldn't have to be "managed": how much you shoot stuff and how close you are to dying or how many times you can use superpowers are things that should be.

 

2. The way one manages stamina right now and "plays the game" is you run, then you copter, then you run, then you copter. Why should that be a thing in the first place?

 

I mean, it's not an option, it's mandatory if you want to stick with your pals. On top of that, certain weapons have a lot better coptering distance than others and that narrows your options. Sorry, did you want to bring a Scindo to the game? Well, you can, but you won't get any kills with it thanks to the one Valkyr with the Dual Ichors. Tough tooties, guess you didn't learn how to play the (meta)game!

 

The point is that it's not about making the game easier for people who don't know how to copter. It's making it so that coptering is a necessary annoyance in the game that forces you to move in an uninteresting way. Yeah, you heard me right. Jumping from wall to wall and slinging across ziplines is a lot more interesting than run+copter because things are actually happening.

 

So yeah. Why teach people how to play an annoying and obnoxious part of the game when you could replace it with something designed to be fun, instead of something originating from a bug that means you can't use the weapons you want or move the way you want because it's not inline with the metagame?

[Artekkor]

My problem with copter is not that i can't use it.

My problem with it: it's stupid and ruins the balance.

Have you seen pvp? Rhinos, who's like one of the slowest warframes in the game, can copter across the map in 1-2 seconds with Bo Prime or something like that.

Crossing the map. By using melee slide attack. Because for some reasons it increases your movement speed to 100 km/h.

Yeah, seems legit. (Actually: no.)

Because of coptering: stamina is useless. You can copter for infinity. You need 5% of stamina to have to copter again. Why is there even a sprint in the first case? It slower, it takes away stamina and you can't spring for a long time because of stamina.

The same problem would go for Parkour 2.0.

Some called it "Resource management". You what what this remind me of? "I'am Bread". You had only limited time at which you could hold onto obstacles. Do you know what "I'am Bread" game is? It's a rage game. And limited stamina to holding on obstacles - one of the reasons why it is.

 

So yeah. Stamina is useless. Coptering is stupid and basically an exploit. Also makes stamina useless.

 

I have no ideas how to rework this S#&$ properly so in my opinion just simply killing everything that doesn't work properly is a good choice. After all DE can revive it any time they want.

[Otaiken]

If managing something isn't a bit of a challenge then why have energy? Why have ammo? Why have shield? Health?

You manage all of that. Let's get rid of all of that, then.

 

And my point is that if it's running out for you then we should teach players to play the game. Teach them to use one of the options available in the game instead of killing it and adding a one-button press.

Is that bad? Teach people how to play the game?

 

First of all, be careful not to slip on that slope you created there.

 

Secondly, people are running out of stamina... solution to that is to teach them... to bypass the system. Brilliant. Stamina management getting you down? Well, DON'T manage it *mind blown*. Do you copter Mak? If so... why? You're missing out on all of that riveting stamina management challenging action right there!

 

You don't have to manage stamina at all when coptering. So if it's such a great system... why did you decide to exlude yourself from it? I can only assume that stamina management is too hardcore for you even.

Edited May 30, 2015 by LocoWithGun

[Thalahssalyst]

You know, that coptering is not hard to do? You know how game breaking its, leaving away the purpose on how melee its supposed to work? 
If you dont know what, melee is for kill, If u choose in a game a Gelatine, because i like it, because i want melee alone, and other people choose bo p  or typedo, o men, mobility its really different, why because a melee?
About coptering, sadly for me, its not going to be removed, they are going to remove stamina because it limit the player on builds and limit the parkour while you dont manage your stamina mods, because if u do that, u lost a lot of other stuff more viable than stamina.
Coptering is the most easy thing, that you can do in game, if u know how to slide with melee, you know how to copter.
 

[Vadrigos]

The issue is not that coptering is hard. It is that it's a bug that became a mechanic while DE struggled with other issues. Now the time has come for the bug to go and a proper system to replace it, and you've grown so used to it that your fighting against the game being improved. Even I will be sad to see the sliding and coptering go, but I know the game will be better for it. Just deal with it. 

[VampirePirate]

<snip>

 

1) This is something that has been going on for a bit, Warframe having stuff taken away that provides any sort of challenge.

Recently some one made a thread about "manic rollers" which reminded of the original rollers before they were nerfed.

Mutalist Osprey, oh no, if i get caught in the cloud by not noticing the handful of tells the thing has i get poisoned!

Well, put on rejuv or anti toxin.

I dont wanna.

So they get nerfed.

Huh?

Basically every unit that is not a standard unit has gotten nerfed because it's too much to learn a new tactic. It's too much to create a faction specific mod config.

 

Me: I will agree with that.  People are afraid of a challenge and so DE caters to the weak and stuff gets nerfed.  One example I can think of are the jack-pack grineer, back when they were something to fear.

 

2) So now there are people that cant copter, which means they cant jump slide either, so kill stamina.

Huh?

 

Me: Coptering is not supposed to be in the game anyway.  It was a bug, always will be a bug, and DE has always wanted to remove it, but people kept crying about it and demanded to keep it in the game.  They are finally removing it, and they explained why on the devstream.  (I assumed you watched it before making this thread)  This has nothing to do with the stamina mechanic.  They are removing stamina because it has become quite problematic in many ways than I care to list.  It doesn't work well with parkour 2.0 (as far as I understood form the devstream).

 

3) Why are you not providing a better tutorial system? Freaking add a room in the relay where new players are taught about the game. Make a noob only relay that has every room teaching something about the game. Make a noob relay what if you are high level and enter you have to answer questions or else you get kicked. Make that the requirement for that Helper of the Lotus thing. Teach people to play the game instead of taking away every single challenge that the game has.

 

Me: In this case, DE may think you are asking too much.  This game is not that hard to figure out.  In addition to that, there are experienced players that can show the noobs what they need to know.  If you are not one of those helpful people, that would explain a lot about you.  Have you ever helped anyone understand this game better?

 

4) This is why i have been asking for a difficulty setting for a while. The game is getting boring. And it's not getting boring because i have been playing for a  while it get's boring because now everything is being boiled down to one path. I have to go out of my way to do crazy things to add a challenge.

 

Me: I think most of us can agree with that.  Not about the 'being bored thing'.  Most of us have actually played too long and probably need a break.  I tried, but I'm too addicted to warframe.

 

5) We are getting all these primed mods, augment mods are getting their own slot because people dont want a sacrifice. Seriously, Warframe is not Left 4 Dead to any degree Warframe is straight up Dynasty Warriors or Gungrave where the point of the game is to kill as many people in row as possible to get the big combos.

 

Me: Not really seeing your point here where you said "kill as many people in row as possible to get the big combos."  I'm just not seeing that in Warframe at all.  Can't agree with that.

 

 

This is just a summary of what I thought as I read your post.  So you wrote all this to complain about people not learning to copter and the fact that stamina is going to be removed?  I'm not really convinced you make your point other than to complain.  Was that the goal?

[Thalahssalyst]

They are finally removing it, and they explained why on the devstream.

This is a joke right? I dont have head phones so i cant listen, can u explain (please?)

What did they say about that...

[5h1n0k4m1]

The issue is not that coptering is hard. It is that it's a bug that became a mechanic while DE struggled with other issues. Now the time has come for the bug to go and a proper system to replace it, and you've grown so used to it that your fighting against the game being improved. Even I will be sad to see the sliding and coptering go, but I know the game will be better for it. Just deal with it. 

this dude makes a point

[notlamprey]

The issue is not that coptering is hard. It is that it's a bug that became a mechanic while DE struggled with other issues. Now the time has come for the bug to go and a proper system to replace it, and you've grown so used to it that your fighting against the game being improved. Even I will be sad to see the sliding and coptering go, but I know the game will be better for it. Just deal with it. 

 

Aye. Coptering can be made pretty easy, if you're willing to rebind some keys. I can't really agree with anyone who considers it to be "skillful" play.

 

When it's gone, I'm sure I'll miss it at first. I'm willing to make that sacrifice if it means that a stamina rework will be getting higher priority. Right now, there's a wide gulf between players who can / do copter and those who can't / don't. Warframe will be better when that's gone. Finding a way to rework or replace this bothersome stamina system will probably have benefits far beyond just this, and I'm willing to ride through some bumpy ground to see what Dev comes up with.

[(PSN)teh1tank]

Stamina is stupid though. There have been so many threads on the forums asking for it to be removed because it's not challenging, it's just plain stupid. Every little thing you do causes you to lose stamina in this game and you're not even given enough stamina to begin with.

 

I agree with you about having a tutorial mode and easier ways for noobs to learn the game though.

[TheBrsrkr]

Stamina is one of the key factors holding back melee play on a whole. Maybe I want to use my attacks as attacks, and not a mandatory method of getting from point A to Point B before sunrise? Or maybe I want my space ninja demigod to run longer than I can in real life? Maybe I should be able to use blocking in melee, the method used to get closer to enemies, and then actually attack theeneenemies? Just a thought.

[Thalahssalyst]

1) This is something that has been going on for a bit, Warframe having stuff taken away that provides any sort of challenge.

Recently some one made a thread about "manic rollers" which reminded of the original rollers before they were nerfed.

Mutalist Osprey, oh no, if i get caught in the cloud by not noticing the handful of tells the thing has i get poisoned!

Well, put on rejuv or anti toxin.

I dont wanna.

So they get nerfed.

Huh?

Basically every unit that is not a standard unit has gotten nerfed because it's too much to learn a new tactic. It's too much to create a faction specific mod config.

 

Me: I will agree with that.  People are afraid of a challenge and so DE caters to the weak and stuff gets nerfed.  One example I can think of are the jack-pack grineer, back when they were something to fear.

 

2) So now there are people that cant copter, which means they cant jump slide either, so kill stamina.

Huh?

 

Me: Coptering is not supposed to be in the game anyway.  It was a bug, always will be a bug, and DE has always wanted to remove it, but people kept crying about it and demanded to keep it in the game.  They are finally removing it, and they explained why on the devstream.  (I assumed you watched it before making this thread)  This has nothing to do with the stamina mechanic.  They are removing stamina because it has become quite problematic in many ways than I care to list.  It doesn't work well with parkour 2.0 (as far as I understood form the devstream).

 

3) Why are you not providing a better tutorial system? Freaking add a room in the relay where new players are taught about the game. Make a noob only relay that has every room teaching something about the game. Make a noob relay what if you are high level and enter you have to answer questions or else you get kicked. Make that the requirement for that Helper of the Lotus thing. Teach people to play the game instead of taking away every single challenge that the game has.

 

Me: In this case, DE may think you are asking too much.  This game is not that hard to figure out.  In addition to that, there are experienced players that can show the noobs what they need to know.  If you are not one of those helpful people, that would explain a lot about you.  Have you ever helped anyone understand this game better?

 

4) This is why i have been asking for a difficulty setting for a while. The game is getting boring. And it's not getting boring because i have been playing for a  while it get's boring because now everything is being boiled down to one path. I have to go out of my way to do crazy things to add a challenge.

 

Me: I think most of us can agree with that.  Not about the 'being bored thing'.  Most of us have actually played too long and probably need a break.  I tried, but I'm too addicted to warframe.

 

5) We are getting all these primed mods, augment mods are getting their own slot because people dont want a sacrifice. Seriously, Warframe is not Left 4 Dead to any degree Warframe is straight up Dynasty Warriors or Gungrave where the point of the game is to kill as many people in row as possible to get the big combos.

 

Me: Not really seeing your point here where you said "kill as many people in row as possible to get the big combos."  I'm just not seeing that in Warframe at all.  Can't agree with that.

 

 

This is just a summary of what I thought as I read your post.  So you wrote all this to complain about people not learning to copter and the fact that stamina is going to be removed?  I'm not really convinced you make your point other than to complain.  Was that the goal?

I agree in all what you have say, but i have a question, its true about coptering its going to be removed? (i really happy if that is going to happend)

I cant hear because, well u know...