Parkour 2.0 Devstream 55 Feedback Megathread

[Ryusuta]

</snip>

 

Dude, he's shown you nothing but respect. Disagreeing with you and explaining why he disagrees is not the same as being disrespectful. Nor is pointing out what he finds to be flaws in your logic (even if they're not, it's not disrespectful for him to address them and ask you do the same).

 

No one is saying one opinion is 100% right or 100% wrong. As far as this goes, my opinion on Parkour 2.0 is that it's a gigantic waste of time to work on and should never have been a priority, so I don't really have a horse in this particular race. I just don't want you to feel like someone is picking on you when there isn't really evidence of that.

[Jinryusai]

I think you haven't realized I am talking about when they implement stealth 2.0 not right now. Also content such turrets and traps are destroyed with speed as well.

I am trying to get at that saying the game has to be speedy to be good isn't entirely true. It depends on what content the DE wants in the game. If the De wants this game to be as fast as you guys want it, then they making content such as Turrets, traps, stealth, and movement abilities become useless.

Those things can work hand n hand with speed although the considering the whole Ninja thing, you are expected to be quick. it maybe up to them but the players vote with their wallets and opinions ad they are the ones that play the game the most so in the end, the devs have to work with the players and not decide everything on their own...

 

What the devs want may not be what the players want but if the players can live it it, fine, but if they cannot then a standstill may happen and cannot be avoided.

 

The devs and players may go off in different directions so in the end, it's best to give choice rather than force it.

 

Which could mean having the player choose between stealth and speed or simply choosing for them with transmissions that slow you down.

 

Compromise is the key word here.

 

So if the players want speed, fine, give it to them, but if the devs want otherwise, well, there are ways to get what they want as well, clever ways, clever compromises, etc.

 

The key is to find a balance...

 

Stealth 2.0 can work in mysterious ways especially with speed. Perhaps using speed to evade enemy sight or strike down oblivious foes and take them all down post haste.

 

imagine if stealth animations didn't last 3-5 sections, but what near instant. Flying from corner to corner taking out enemies instantly like a bat in darkness.

 

Imagine taking out the turret dude in a blind of an eye and spraying enemies and having to take down a few before getting to that in quick fashion.

 

All moving slow does is slow down this process to a crawl, a point in which it's faster to just spray everyone and move on. By time you do all this, your other teammates would have killed everyone by now and be halfway across the level because you were too slow.

 

By time your time you're done with your little stealth game, the other three tenno would be holding hands and singing kumbaya at extraction or yelling obscenities at you...

 

Sometimes speed is a necessity to motivate people to do something you want them to do.

 

Look at how people react to bunny hopping, imagine the same attitude for stealth if things are still slow. Why assassinate when you can spray or light up everyone.

 

Think of the current mindset of players before you think of stealth 2.0.

[7Lions]

Heres a proposed and easy fix.

 

1) Give all Melee weapons the same coptering distance, be it a tippydoe, or a shindoe

 

2) Coptering while melee is not equipped will not damage enemies, and therefore is only meant for movement, quick meleeing while standing still will result in enemy damage

 

3) Coptering while melee is equipped will no longer send you flying, but instead be considered a spin attack within a set distance.

 

 

This way each and every weapon performs the same in terms of movement and not one is more viable to the other just because of its attack speed.

 

Problem = Solved

[sir_deadlock]

As far as this goes, my opinion on Parkour 2.0 is that it's a gigantic waste of time to work on and should never have been a priority, so I don't really have a horse in this particular race. I just don't want you to feel like someone is picking on you when there isn't really evidence of that.

 

 The way I see it, they're probably working on a bunch of things all at once with a large staff. So rather than this being a priority, it's something they've been working on that was ready enough to be implemented.

 

 So it's not "why did they concentrate on this?" but rather "I wonder what else they're cooking up."

[sir_deadlock]

Heres a proposed and easy fix.

 

1) Give all Melee weapons the same coptering distance, be it a tippydoe, or a shindoe

 

2) Coptering while melee is not equipped will not damage enemies, and therefore is only meant for movement, quick meleeing while standing still will result in enemy damage

 

3) Coptering while melee is equipped will no longer send you flying, but instead be considered a spin attack within a set distance.

 

 

This way each and every weapon performs the same in terms of movement and not one is more viable to the other just because of its attack speed.

 

Problem = Solved

 

 You're going to get people complaining about realism and such. Large weapons should slow you down, small lighter weapons should leave you unencumbered.

 I don't really care too much. I'm more excited to see even we go complex puzzle mazes that require gripping onto walls, or boss fights like in Shadow of the Colossus where you literally hold on for your life as the boss whips you around while you make your way to a vulnerable point to lay down a critical strike.

 

Hey, what did you think of the infested archwing boss level?

[Feallike]

-snip-

 

Again, giving a player choice on whether to go fast or slow won't work. They either have to make the game your speed, or make the game their speed. They can't have a compromise because you can't have a game that has two paces in a coop game. Like you said think of the current mindset of player. People have a choice to do a Draco run or a regular run but if you look at the Meta 90% of players choose Draco strats which ruins the coop experience for the 10%.

 

Stealth 2.0 can go hand and hand with fast Parkour if it is design that way. Though you still talk about stealth being useless and rather spraying and praying. The DE should work on that, but even if they make enemies harder so stealthing becomes possible... If you can run past them before they can shoot you it makes 0 difference. They would have to put in restrictions to force you to slow down and actually kill enemies.

 

Also the DE made it very specific when showing the Turret off that they want this enemy to be something players have to stop and be careful about. They don't want you to run past it! It is a suppression unit that forces you to stop and take cover! Why would they want you to be able to jump past it and make the enemy useless?

 

The only way they can make Parkour your speed and their speed would to use a momentum system that is extremely hard to master. This would allow players to go super fast after a lot of practice and parkour. This would have to be a huge skill wall for it not to be abused immediately.

Edited June 30, 2015 by Feallike

[Jinryusai]

Again, giving a player choice on whether to go fast or slow won't work. They either have to make the game your speed, or make the game their speed. They can't have a compromise because you can't have a game that has two paces in a coop game. Like you said think of the current mindset of player. People have a choice to do a Draco run or a regular run but if you look at the Meta 90% of players choose Draco strats which ruins the coop experience for the 10%. - There are alternatives devs can give players should they remove something akin to Draco seeing as devs and the abusers are on the same page with that kind of farming being poisonous to all games...

 

Stealth 2.0 can go hand and hand with fast Parkour if it is design that way. Though you still talk about stealth being useless and rather spraying and praying(- Who said useless? This is the generic player mindset). The DE should work on that, but even if they make enemies harder so stealthing becomes possible... If you can run past them before they can shoot you it makes 0 difference. They would have to put in restrictions to force you to slow down and actually kill enemies. - How is that different from actually having to kill the enemies if you are too slow to hop beyond them. Seems like taking the easy way out...

 

Also the DE made it very specific when showing the Turret off that they want this enemy to be something players have to stop and be careful about. They don't want you to run past it! It is a suppression unit that forces you to stop and take cover! Why would they want you to be able to jump past it and make the enemy useless? - If the enemy can't hit the broadside of a barn then speed is not at fault, his aim, skill is. Perhaps they should consider this seeing as it's easy to see players bunny hopping circles around him even if they are slow.

 

The only way they can make Parkour your speed and their speed would to use a momentum system that is extremely hard to master. This would allow players to go super fast after a lot of practice and parkour. This would have to be a huge skill wall for it not to be abused immediately. - And when they do, the too fast complaints would return as always. What else is new...

The new term for the slowpokes that eat dust and complain shall be "lrn2parkour" because there are those that simply cannot master every system. So it's not fair to them at all. It's like mastering the art of using only a lightweight item to fly which is easy or extremely difficult depending on the weapons one likes.

 

Not healthy for the game...

Edited June 30, 2015 by Jinryusai

[CrimsonNightSky]

I think the speed issue is weird to look at. Right now we (can) move fast enough to skip entire tiles, so almost anything will be slower than that. 

     To me it looks like Parkour 2 is about giving players better interactions with the environment. If it ends up being 'too slow' as some people claim, then they can probably reduce the length of a level by a few tiles. The mechanics involved also seem pretty accessible, so hopefully people wont be left in the dust. Either way, I'd rather have more fun interactions with the environment than blast through a tile. Or have half a squad blast through back to back tiles while the others play catchup.

I'm wondering if we'll see more specific uses for parkour in updated tile sets. Also waiting to see if the later planets might have more interesting/slightly tougher parkour elements than earlier planets. Hopefully stuff that's fun but not too ridiculous.

Personally I think it looks pretty clean from what we've seen, with small issues like latching on curved surfaces. The current double jump sound might be a bit much if someone spams it. Either way I'm pretty excited to get around and explore levels in new, more interactive ways.

[Jinryusai]

  To me it looks like Parkour 2 is about giving players better interactions with the environment. If it ends up being 'too slow' as some people claim, then they can probably reduce the length of a level by a few tiles. The mechanics involved also seem pretty accessible, so hopefully people wont be left in the dust. Either way, I'd rather have more fun interactions with the environment than blast through a tile. Or have half a squad blast through back to back tiles while the others play catchup.

Cutting a race track short due to cars being too slow isn't going to please speed demons. Why should it please the Speed Tenno in warframe?

[Babellon]

Has anyone played DCUO? There is a movement mode called acrobatics. How would the players feel if parkour 2.0 turned into something very similar to that movement power.

 

it allows you to free climb walls, cling to ceilings, leap and glide great distances. somewhat like what was displayed in the WIP we saw.

 

If DE took ideas from that power in DCUO and made our movement mechanics like that would people be happy with it? Gliding would easily replace coptering, with better effect, wall climbing, clinging to ceilings, leaping around, all of those are the elements we want in our movement freedom right? 

 

excerpt from DCUO website and wikia

                     Acrobats are master aerialists and climbers who use their skills to vault across the rooftops with seemingly effortless grace. Acrobats are able to climb and cling to any surface, giving them a unique way to approach both movement and combat. Using a Grapple Line, Acrobats can quickly ascend tall buildings and traverse the gap between skyscrapers. And for movement across the massive cityscapes, Acrobats can even glide across the sky after leaping from vast heights.
In combat, the Acrobat's agility is unmatched, with special combat moves designed to draw enemies in close to deliver precision attacks.    

[aerosoul1337]

One thing, weapon swap speed is too slow.

But not getting any change?

And it is effected by net latency.

So it's even worse when not hosting.

[Macframe]

Getting rid of dreaded DELAY when issuing command to dashing and jumping, the two very basic moves. Mario in NES 30 years ago is more agile and responsive control-wise than these modern space combatants who are masterful in combat.

 

When I first played, I can't help but feel how clumsy and unresponsive these space ninjas are, other than some parkour bugs (unsticking surface) and designs (force body rolling), is delays, including switching weapons, thanks aerosoul1337 for pointing that out. But the delay I am talking about is a delay between command pressed and onset of animation, not the actual speed of animation. But of course increase speed of swapping will make it a better game, because how can anyone sacrifice the Aura slot for Speed Holster.

[MaxiTB]

Lets be honest, what do you think guys?

 

Looks slow.

Like something made for people who cant handle mouse and keyboard.

I dun judge.

[Thalahssalyst]

Lets be honest, what do you think guys?

 

 

Like something made for people who cant handle mouse and keyboard.

 

Wut?

[CrimsonNightSky]

     Part of how fast something feels in a game is tied into its animation and other visual elements. Volt's Speed for example is a combination of motion blur, faster animation, perspective shift, speed lines, sound effect, and increased velocity. A stronger looking impulse off the wall or snappier animations might please some people. We'll probably see more polish like that in the final build vs the Dev Build: Work In Progress tech demo.

     Feeling of speed as relative thing:

For example, in classic Sonic the Hedgehog games, it feels like he's going fast when his legs start spinning up even if he's not moving significantly faster than he was a second ago. For comparison, find video of Super Mario Bros with a zoomed in perspective, so he's about the same size as Sonic on screen. You'll be surprised at what looks fast and what doesn't. Personally I think the sound effects and music help the feeling of speed in Sonic a whole lot.

In Jedi Outcast players had Force Speed. You could cover more distance in the same amount of time but it didn't look fast since the run animation's speed was the same as before using it. Its speed contribution starts about the same as a maxed level Rush in Warframe and goes up to roughly double normal movement speed - even if it doesn't really look or feel like it.

The satisfaction we get from speed is from the feeling of going fast and relative perspective, not just the velocity.

And for those who need to get around the map quickly, movement abilities are still a thing. There's always Volt, Loki, Ash, Nova, and Zephyr (esp. w/ Jet Stream).

[Thalahssalyst]

And for those who need to get around the map quickly, movement abilities are still a thing. There's always Volt, Loki, Ash, Nova, and Zephyr (esp. w/ Jet Stream).

Yep.

[ashrah]

coptering looks tra bad in game.....now speed mods will be much more usedul

[Otaiken]

I would just like to remind people that stamina is going away. So just equip Rush and maybe get the new mod (Yay +45% sprint speed!) and sprint for days without worry.

 

The Parkour doesn't look that much faster so people should be more than capable of keeping up this way and opt out of the jumping around.

[Thalahssalyst]

I would just like to remind people that stamina is going away. So just equip Rush and maybe get the new mod (Yay +45% sprint speed!) and sprint for days without worry.

 

The Parkour doesn't look that much faster so people should be more than capable of keeping up this way and opt out of the jumping around.

I hope they remove rush, and instead of put a mod, increase the run speed on all warframes, based on max rush stats.

[Jinryusai]

     Part of how fast something feels in a game is tied into its animation and other visual elements. Volt's Speed for example is a combination of motion blur, faster animation, perspective shift, speed lines, sound effect, and increased velocity. A stronger looking impulse off the wall or snappier animations might please some people. We'll probably see more polish like that in the final build vs the Dev Build: Work In Progress tech demo.

     Feeling of speed as relative thing:

For example, in classic Sonic the Hedgehog games, it feels like he's going fast when his legs start spinning up even if he's not moving significantly faster than he was a second ago. For comparison, find video of Super Mario Bros with a zoomed in perspective, so he's about the same size as Sonic on screen. You'll be surprised at what looks fast and what doesn't. Personally I think the sound effects and music help the feeling of speed in Sonic a whole lot.

In Jedi Outcast players had Force Speed. You could cover more distance in the same amount of time but it didn't look fast since the run animation's speed was the same as before using it. Its speed contribution starts about the same as a maxed level Rush in Warframe and goes up to roughly double normal movement speed - even if it doesn't really look or feel like it.

The satisfaction we get from speed is from the feeling of going fast and relative perspective, not just the velocity.

And for those who need to get around the map quickly, movement abilities are still a thing. There's always Volt, Loki, Ash, Nova, and Zephyr (esp. w/ Jet Stream).

But if you actually need mobility powers to be fast or feel fast, that is not very good.

[Thalahssalyst]

Added last vine from Steve, Bullet Jump nice amount of distance covered.

Edited July 8, 2015 by Grimlock-

[RahuHordika]

Added last vine from Steve, Bullet Jump 50% ninja speed, and a nice amount of distance covered.

That's one good thing to see, good to know Steve is listening. I only hope that he also listened to the suggestion of combining the best of both versions instead of focusing on making everything jump based.

[.Talia.]

Added last vine from Steve, Bullet Jump 50% ninja speed, and a nice amount of distance covered.

 

 

Bullet Jump, a new movement created on replacement of Coptering, a decent distance and speed, with the ability of control the direction.

https://vine.co/v/enFVbw3e5nx

 

 

Looks like it cover a nice amount of distance, and a nice speed increase on 50%

 

You misinterpreted... He didnt say its an increase on 50%

He said: ''Sneak peak at BulletJump - ninja speed with 50% less carpal tunnel!'' 

That last part is a joke, carpal tunnel is a syndrome on the nerves and tendons of the hand. He meant we can still be ninja fast with less stress in the hand.

[BalancedFury]

Added last vine from Steve, Bullet Jump 50% ninja speed, and a nice amount of distance covered.

That's not 50% more ninja speed its 50% strain from fingers

[Thalahssalyst]

 

 

 

You misinterpreted... He didnt say its an increase on 50%

He said: ''Sneak peak at BulletJump - ninja speed with 50% less carpal tunnel!'' 

That last part is a joke, carpal tunnel is a syndrome on the nerves and tendons of the hand. He meant we can still be ninja fast with less stress in the hand.

 

 

That's not 50% more ninja speed its 50% strain from fingers

Im going to fix it.

Thx.