Why It's Time To Reevaluate Playing This Game.

[(PSN)WiiConquered]

Then tell DE to make a "no cheese" zone.

On the contrary, considering there are already TA's that require it, I would just give them unlimited energy and tell the people who enjoy cheesing to cheese there (and have at least one active at all times). That keeps the issues it causes away from the main game.

Edited July 6, 2015 by (PS4)WiiConquered

[ThePresident777]

Apparently, the word zone is not well understood.

 

Wow, so now people are calling the content they like "main game" and what they don't like they call "cheese".  And they still think they are in a position to have game play taken away from people and tell others how to play, across all games no less.  Such an enlightened discussion, no bias there at all, not.

Edited July 6, 2015 by ThePresident777

[Davoodoo]

Apparently, the word zone is not well understood.

Zone is well understood,

 

Problem is that no cheese zone requires lack of cheesing possibility, which in turn requires as long as we keep current system, removal of some abilities, heavy nerfing of others, yet if im not able to use my abilities then im losing options not gaining them.

 

Complete rebalance of powers or changing energy system is work so big that it should rather affect whole game.

 

Thus indeed, whole game should become one, especially that it would mean more care being put into wellbeing of said system than it was ever done in warframe. 

Active development proces would naturally replace obsolete one.

 

 

There is no possibility of directed changes when we talk about whole gameplay mechanic being changed.

Edited July 6, 2015 by Davoodoo

[(PSN)WiiConquered]

Apparently, the word zone is not well understood.

 

Wow, so now people are calling the content they like "main game" and what they don't like they call "cheese".  And they still think they are in a position to have game play taken away from people and tell others how to play, across all games no less.  Such an enlightened discussion, no bias there at all, not.

You continue to fail to understand that this is already my situation. Your playstyle, once again, dictates everything for every other.

[Kinjeto]

Moving on over to General Feedback, as this seems to apply to much of the game as a whole.

Yep pretty normal response, pretty much where it mostly ends up

Edited July 6, 2015 by Kinjeto

[Neogeo]

You're basically just complaint for the sake of complaining. The way that you justified your action by claiming you bought some "dlc" package on steam make me LOL hard. I spend a couple hundred on this game when I first startup. Bought the highest amount of plats package twice with a 50% discount. I'd never spend a single cent afterward. I earn all my plats via trading and I could afford to go nuts with the cosmetic item. Just name one f2p game that allow you to do that. I dare you. And also you complaining about DE releasing underpower weapon is just stupid. There are hundred of weapon in this game, if one isn't to your liking, just put the weapon aside and use the one you think it's op or fun. DE will buff the underpower weapon eventually, and if you truly did spend money on this game, surely you can afford keeping all the weapon in your inventory, right? I know I never sold a single weapon, frame or companion for more than two years of my playtime. The game is very cheap and also entertaining to play. The developer didn't charge us an arm and leg for everything like other f2p game on the market. Everything can be earn in game in reasonable timeframe. It's dishearten to see people like you trying to discredit a hardworking and honest developer like DE.

[Raidakk]

Why do I like this game ?

Because exactly it has no direction or end product to look forward.

And what's so good about not having a direction?

[Chaosdreamer]

Hope DE will see and take this as sticky in there head ;)

 

And I guess you're right about people who log in ,I do log in at each update weekly , but do not play as I used to do ,because MR19 and there is also no goal anymore except waiting next prime , farm craft , back to normal

[ThePresident777]

Saying that complete rebalance of powers or changing energy system is work so big that it should rather affect whole game implies that it's not worth alienating players for it.   More so when one considers that Warframe is successful without complete rebalance of powers or changing energy system and "every one is cheesing".  The more that people claim that something is unbalanced and needs to be nerfed because "everybody is using/doing it" the more they marginalize themselves and the more self important they appear in demanding that everyone else has to justify and cede fun to them, the chosen few.  Why should we have to give up the little bit of fun we have when others have the majority of the content already nerfed, ready for their enjoyment?  They don't want the stuff we are chasing anyway because it's OP.  They are going to do the same thing as always anyway, no matter what new content they acquire.  Since we spent money on the game, maybe they should spend some too.

 

Claiming that complete rebalance of powers or changing energy system is big work doesn't justify making it the only option or zone in the game.  Game developers will make as many games as will provide profit.  It's an investment.  If it's worth the effort, it'll happen.  Saying that only one zone is possible implies that the changes one wants cannot compete.

 

Also, the fact that Warframe has multiple zones already (Conclave, Arch Wing, even Nightmare Mode) is rather curious considering what a long running open sore "balance" is.  Is the nerf faction so tiny that Arch Wing or Conclave are better investments?

 

There is no sense in nerfing peoples fun at all, much less the majority.

 

It is not the case in Warframe that one play style is dictating everything for every other.  People who want nerfs already have the majority of the content.  The enemies they hate are rare if present at all in low levels.  Such players are calling for the end of endless missions.  They can implement that themselves by not staying endlessly in a mission.  They can take their pre-nerfed content to low to mid levels where the enemies they hate do not exist.  They can match make.  They can zone themselves. 

 

The same can't be said for players who want high powered player content to use against dangerous enemies or who want to play the game as was intended:

Warframe: Developer Q&A , Answer to Question 4:

The core is the 4 guys against a massive army.  And, generally speaking, they are devastating. The core is not something like in Gears of War where the one on one is something a bit more balanced.  One Space Ninja against a whole ship of Grineer is the idea.  But, that needs to be balanced by boss battles, and by like desperate scenarios.  But, generally speaking, the whole idea of it, even an old ninja (right?) is that the untrained militia get devastated by a single one.

 

And, if one has a problem with matchmaking then a better match making system, or conclave rating system if need be, will solve their problem.  There is no excuse for not having better conclave rating and match making systems.  That would be real evolution in warframe.  No nerfing people's fun.

 

 

[(PSN)WiiConquered]

Saying that complete rebalance of powers or changing energy system is work so big that it should rather affect whole game implies that it's not worth alienating players for it.   More so when one considers that Warframe is successful without complete rebalance of powers or changing energy system and "every one is cheesing".  The more that people claim that something is unbalanced and needs to be nerfed because "everybody is using/doing it" the more they marginalize themselves and the more self important they appear in demanding that everyone else has to justify and cede fun to them, the chosen few.  Why should we have to give up the little bit of fun we have when others have the majority of the content already nerfed, ready for their enjoyment?  They don't want the stuff we are chasing anyway because it's OP.  They are going to do the same thing as always anyway, no matter what new content they acquire.  Since we spent money on the game, maybe they should spend some too.

 

Claiming that complete rebalance of powers or changing energy system is big work doesn't justify making it the only option or zone in the game.  Game developers will make as many games as will provide profit.  It's an investment.  If it's worth the effort, it'll happen.  Saying that only one zone is possible implies that the changes one wants cannot compete.

 

Also, the fact that Warframe has multiple zones already (Conclave, Arch Wing, even Nightmare Mode) is rather curious considering what a long running open sore "balance" is.  Is the nerf faction so tiny that Arch Wing or Conclave are better investments?

 

There is no sense in nerfing peoples fun at all, much less the majority.

 

It is not the case in Warframe that one play style is dictating everything for every other.  People who want nerfs already have the majority of the content.  The enemies they hate are rare if present at all in low levels.  Such players are calling for the end of endless missions.  They can implement that themselves by not staying endlessly in a mission.  They can take their pre-nerfed content to low to mid levels where the enemies they hate do not exist.  They can match make.  They can zone themselves. 

 

The same can't be said for players who want high powered player content to use against dangerous enemies or who want to play the game as was intended:

 

And, if one has a problem with matchmaking then a better match making system, or conclave rating system if need be, will solve their problem.  There is no excuse for not having better conclave rating and match making systems.  That would be real evolution in warframe.  No nerfing people's fun.

Once again, most people don't find it fun, or else creating games people enjoy would be ridiculously easy. Most people either defend it because of another broke system, such as player progression or enemy design, or they defend it because they don't trust DE to make a change properly, or they don't defend it and have already quit.

Once again, you do not have less content. You can play your playstyle at any level, no matter who your playing with, no matter what rewards you want, no matter of anything. I cannot. If I play with you, I watch your playstyle instead of playing mine. If I play without you, I play the things designed (almost always unsuccessfully) to counteract your playstyle that I can't counteract with mine.

And I've already told you about that quote. Reposting it doesn't change the points of myself or anyone else.

[ThePresident777]

There is no correlation between fun and the difficulty in developing games.  An awful lot of selective assumption there about why people defend "it".

 

People who want high powered content do have less content and "nerf OP" implies that.  The claim for nerf OP is that it is better than the rest.  And it's a fact that the game has only so many 400+ DPS weapons, for example, much less than 200 to 300 DPS weapons.

 

And no, not any play style can be played at any level.  Destroying hordes at level one is not the same as destroying hordes at level 100.  Level 1 hordes are not nearly as dangerous, they do not require fast reflexes.  At high levels, no matter how much offense the Tenno have, being fast on the buttons is required, even more so the faster the enemy respawn.

 

We don't have to give up our fun because others are bored.  Everyone is free to match make with people who play their way.  Not everything has to be designed for you.  You can't please everybody.

[ProfessorZero]

Glad to have accidentally kicked the hornets nest guys, i'm getting Starcraft flashbacks with all this talk of "cheese".

 

Cheese is generally defined as cheap gameplay that exploits certain timings or weaknesses in the oppositions standard play, instead of matching it in the forms of equals with similar 'standard' play styles. For starcraft, a cheese would mean using turrets (photon cannons) instead of units to beat the enemy early in the game. 

Cheese in warframe is, as a matter of intrinsic properties, nonexistent simply because everything we do is cheese. We don't fight the mushroom-headed grineer on equal terms, we are 4 v 1000's. Molecular prime? cheese. Radial blind? Cheese. Radial disarm? CHEESE. Chaos? CHEESE MOTHER LOVERS, ITS CHEESE.

 

So what we need is a way to make content that makes cheese only a component at higher level games, and simply not possible to perform well enough to consider cheese in lower levels. This is the mastery locking/conclave capping system. The nerf now crowd loses the overpowered "PLZ NERF" hell that is boltors on mercury making gameplay boring, as well as making higher level gameplay more interesting. Similarly we get the "plz buff" crowd the better weapons for the higher level gameplay while simulataneously making the cheese only a component, not the lynchpin, of that higher level gameplay. 

We shouldn't be trying to determine which path we should go on, but rather how we can trod down both at once.

 

----edit >> https://i.ytimg.com/vi/vqgSO8_cRio/hqdefault.jpg ----

Edited July 6, 2015 by ProfessorZero

[TheGunSlanger]

This post originally angered me, but you made some very good points and solutions to problems.

 

One of the few things I disagree on is warframe's playerbase dying xD

[Marthrym]

Alright, so let's try to define "cheese" in THIS particular game : complete map lockdown (or as close as possible) through the use of any and all means (CC being the "best" one) at our disposal, either because otherwise you get "OHK 360 noscope" by a grunt 50 meters away (and there are many grunts), or because laziness and habit take over.

 

Players do tend to choose the path of least of resistance. Everything favors the path of least resistance (even electricity!) as much as possible. It's called "not being a dumbass" in the real world. And (un)fortunately we tend to behave in the same way in video games (unless we find fun challenge of course). So now that this is an aknowledged fact (is it really?), can we please move on and try to be constructive instead?

 

We use "cheese tactics" for several reasons. The first one being obviously because it is the path of least resistance. BUT, one other obvious reason is because at some point it unfortunately becomes the ONLY viable one. It's THAT simple. Let's take the example of trials. They are, by design apparently (that or the devs still refuse after years to understand that the core of their game is bonkers), created to only be doable if you prevent any and all enemies from even looking at you. Personally, I find this design choice particularly dumb and misguided. But that's just my personal opinion. And I really don't care anymore if I have to cheese my way through that content, because it's the only way anyway. The devs won't even talk about it anymore, apparently they think it's "challenging", so they roll with it no matter how many players tell them they don't enjoy it. Hek, they built the damn "endgame" around it!

Of course, we also cheese where we don't have to, either by habit (it doesn't help to have to spend so much time in endless modes figthing a broken scaling and RNG and not the enemies themselves), or simply because we're lazy. Or we don't want to have to spend hours on end doing the same thing just to have a tiny chance to get the shiny stuff we want. Or we're very lazy. I know I've said it before, but I feel like it needed the repetition...

 

Then comes the RNGesus element. This one also has players go at each others' throats. Some find it completely broken, so many layers that it makes you dizzy, while others take it with a bit of philosophy and say "Hey, can't expect everything to fall on your lap just like that, can you?". Personally I think there's ground in both arguments, but I'd like to not have to rely on chance to get stuff. I'm not a lucky guy.

There is also the fact that most of the shiny goodies are in the same place : the Void. This I find, again, very stupid. It doesn't help the players to not feel burnout fast. We already know Warframe is very repetitive, but this might be pushing it. Personally, I can't wait to see the Void explode, and I really hope the goodies will be spread evenly all over the Sol System. Though I won't hold my breath on this one...

 

And, last but not least : challenge.

Is there any actual challenge in Warframe? Or is it just numbers and MOAR numbers, with a side of dirty and cheap tricks and mechanics? Personally, I think it's the latter. I don't find the game challenging. Unfair and wonky sometimes, but not challenging. Don't get me wrong, I do have fun, I'm still here, but I don't feel like I have to elevate my game, to get better to beat the game. Not because I'm "too pro", Hek no, far from that, but simply because it's mostly all or nothing in Warframe. We either faceroll our way through missions, or we get rekt if we don't "cheese". There's a sweet spot somewhere between the two, but it's so thin and smothered by the two extremes that it's really hard to find it. So it doesn't help not to choose the path of least resistance. And of course we're lazy. Come on people, admit it! Laaaaaaaazy.

 

But let's be honest, the faceroll part is mostly there because we use the best gear we have for everything, which kinda makes it our fault if we don't feel challenged (not that it's bad, it's just that people tend to forget that fact and then scream it's too easy, which to me is very much ironic) when doing a lvl 25 mission with optimized builds and 6 forma'ed weapons. As for the other extreme, well, a one sided infinite scaling tends to break under its own weight after a while. Even more so if it's a tad wonky.

 

So, where do we go from there? No idea! Since there are as many opinions on what to do and not do as there are players, I'm not even going to go near this can of snakes... I mean this post is probably going to get me enough flame from other players who think differently, so no need to throw more oil on that fire. I just wanted to share my personal (emphasis on personal) opinion about all this. Please don't hate me.^^'

[BloodForTheBloodGods]

I'm not sure if anyone's mentioned this, but it seems like it needs a mention. The trade system is an absolute joke. It's the bare minimum they could possibly do and it's just an annoyance to use. You want to sell something? You want to buy something? Well, you can't actual play the game while doing it. It reminds me of RS before it had GE, except you can't trade where ever you want.

 

Relays though? A place where numerous players could meet together? Definitely don't let trades happen there. Don't even let people look at their inventories.

[tzaeru]

I'm not sure if anyone's mentioned this, but it seems like it needs a mention. The trade system is an absolute joke. It's the bare minimum they could possibly do and it's just an annoyance to use. You want to sell something? You want to buy something? Well, you can't actual play the game while doing it. It reminds me of RS before it had GE, except you can't trade where ever you want.

 

Well, the danger and problem of off-line trading and trading houses and automated trades is the fact that on PCs, trading bots will quickly take it over. Happens in every game and causes a massive deflation of item value.

Still, I don't really see why the clan dojo is absolutely needed for trading.. To make it harder to do trade bots? To make players feel less interested in trading to keep it a bit more exlusive? Who knows..

 

Relays though? A place where numerous players could meet together? Definitely don't let trades happen there. Don't even let people look at their inventories.

 

Very good point, but I'm sure there's work being done to make the Relay experience more whole. Can't expect big miracles to come on a conveyer belt for a game of this size..

Edited July 6, 2015 by tzaeru

[BloodForTheBloodGods]

Cheese in warframe is, as a matter of intrinsic properties, nonexistent simply because everything we do is cheese. We don't fight the mushroom-headed grineer on equal terms, we are 4 v 1000's. Molecular prime? cheese. Radial blind? Cheese. Radial disarm? CHEESE. Chaos? CHEESE MOTHER LOVERS, ITS CHEESE.

 

So what we need is a way to make content that makes cheese only a component at higher level games, and simply not possible to perform well enough to consider cheese in lower levels. This is the mastery locking/conclave capping system. The nerf now crowd loses the overpowered "PLZ NERF" hell that is boltors on mercury making gameplay boring, as well as making higher level gameplay more interesting. Similarly we get the "plz buff" crowd the better weapons for the higher level gameplay while simulataneously making the cheese only a component, not the lynchpin, of that higher level gameplay. 

We shouldn't be trying to determine which path we should go on, but rather how we can trod down both at once.

 

----edit >> https://i.ytimg.com/vi/vqgSO8_cRio/hqdefault.jpg ----

Or, giving each node an 'difficulty level' multiplier. Once a node is unlocked, you could revisit them, and select a difficulty level: Normal, Hard, Very Hard, Overkill and Death wish (taking from Payday). The difficulty multiplier would effect the enemy level, AI, drop rates and rewards. So say, you need to go Mercury, it could still feel like 'endgame'. Plus, you'd gain more/higher chance of getting the reward you'd want. You could then have the freedom to choose if you wanted a cake walk or a challenge. If people were to complain about boltors on mercury? People could just say, try a harder difficulty.

 

Seems more of a win-win to me.

Edited July 6, 2015 by BloodForTheBloodGods

[Davoodoo]

Or, giving each node an 'difficulty level' multiplier. Once a node is unlocked, you could revisit them, and select a difficulty level: Normal, Hard, Very Hard, Overkill and Death wish (taking from Payday). The difficulty multiplier would effect the enemy level, AI, drop rates and rewards. So say, you need to go Mercury, it could still feel like 'endgame'. Plus, you'd gain more/higher chance of getting the reward you'd want. You could then have the freedom to choose if you wanted a cake walk or a challenge. If people were to complain about boltors on mercury? People could just say, try a harder difficulty.

 

Seems more of a win-win to me.

The problem is that it wont work.

 

In payday you had nifty gadget, ecm jammer which had a perk ecm feedback, 2 uses tops per game, but in warframe we can spam such ability and just like in payday enemies cant do S#&$ about it.

 

While cheesing in payday was doing ecm rushes, at least they were limited and could fail.

Edited July 6, 2015 by Davoodoo

[Marthrym]

The problem is that it wont work.

 

In payday you had nifty gadget, ecm jammer which had a perk ecm feedback, 2 uses tops per game, but in warframe we can spam such ability and just like in payday enemies cant do S#&$ about it.

 

While cheesing in payday was doing ecm rushes, at least they were limited and could fail.

You can fail when you cheese in Warframe.^^

Comparing PAYDAY to Warframe is kinda silly to me. I mean I get that it's just a component you're comparing, but the games themselves are way too different at their cores for it to make sense.

Edited July 6, 2015 by Marthrym

[Davoodoo]

You can fail when you cheese in Warframe.^^

Comparing PAYDAY to Warframe is kinda silly to me. I mean I get that it's just a component you're comparing, but the games themselves are way too different at their cores for it to make sense.

If youre total idiot you can fail tying your shoes.

Cheesing in warframe is very idiot proof with radial aoes centered on player and spammability ensures you cant F*** it up if you have any brain cells left. Monkey can be taught to press single button over and over.

 

Both are pve coop shooters. Theyre not that different.

One simply went in different direction with setting and mechanics, but so did me3 which is always compared to warframe.

Edited July 6, 2015 by Davoodoo

[tehgreg]

Slightly back on topic:

 

Finally, every update breaks almost as much as it fixes.  This is a bold statement, but I'm willing to support it.  You have a screwed up build on Wednesday, push it back to Thursday, and then release a patch at the end of business day Friday.  Over the weekend players get to figure out that they suddenly fall through the levels, are instantly murdered by enemies because you broke one of the powers, or better yet some enemies are suddenly invincible.  That little string of problems was present in the last month's batch of updating.  This weekend bombards have made Zephyr capable of being one shot killed at level 20 (them at 20, Zephyr at 30 with max redirect and vitality).  The Elytron suddenly lost the ability to use thumper.  Certain enemies in archwing couldn't be melee killed, and the Corpus gas reclamation tile set was permeable for spawning players.  This stream of bugs is becoming more and more difficult to accept, and it seems to be because multiple builds are being fused together to create a release.  Your own developer stream highlighted this issue, and it's making the game unplayable.  The recent release from WB should tell you that consumers will stop giving you money if the product they get is shoddy.

 

Another perfect example is a recent release of a revamped excalibur. It took DE 4 updates to fix his new ultimate which was so hyped in devstreams and on forums.

 

Update 16.9.0 (Jun 17 2015 11:50 PM) - new excalibur added into the game

 

 

18 minutes later we get a major bug fix (18 June 2015 - 01:08 AM)

 

*Fixed Excalibur's Exalted Blade not inheriting any melee mods. This fix now allows the damage of Exalted Blade attacks to scale based on the mods of your Melee weapon.

 

one day passes (Posted 19 June 2015 - 08:02 PM) and we get another critical update:

 

*Fixed Excalibur’s Exalted Blade copying melee Stance Mods, which would break functionality of the Ability.
*Fixed an issue causing Excalibur’s Exalted Blade to not properly release energy waves.

 

 

one day passes (Posted 20 June 2015 - 02:17 AM)and we get another update

 

 

*Fixed damage from Exalted Blade’s energy waves not scaling properly with Mods.
*Fixed the some cases of Exalted Blade not appearing when activated when used with certain melee weapons.
*Fixed some cases of Exalted Blade use not allowing players to melee attack when activated or deactivated.
*Fixed Exalted Blade’s energy waves not getting a damage buff from Channeling or applying unique Mod effects (such as Life Strike).
*Fixed an issue with Exalted Blade damage not being correct on Clients.

 

two days pass (Posted 22 June 2015 - 10:04 PM)and we get yet another update:

 

*Fixed Exalted Blade’s energy waves not receiving a boost from damage Mods when used by Clients.
*Fixed Exalted Blade’s energy wave not benefiting from channeling buffs.
*Fixed Clients using Exalted Blade not gaining benefits from Syndicate Mods.

 

 

I think this is ridiculous and I fail to understand how is it possible to release somthing this big (excalibur being warframe's poster boy and such) with so many bugs. A cook tastes their dish before serving it, a director watches their movie before presenting it to public - they all do this to not disappoint their customers and achieve maximum profits. Why doesn't DE do this? Because they can just release a new shiny skin and people will forgive them everything. Everything is about maximising income now and I can't really blame DE for that. However, it will definitely have a negative impact on the game and the playerbase.

Older players are getting bored and no longer invest in platinum, new players join only to be discouraged by the grind and the level of difficulty and the rest are farming mastery in Draco because that's the only thing left to do for them.

[Marthrym]

If youre total idiot you can fail tying your shoes.

Cheesing in warframe is very idiot proof with radial aoes centered on player and spammability ensures you cant F*** it up if you have any brain cells left. Monkey can be taught to press single button over and over.

 

Both are pve coop shooters. Theyre not that different.

One simply went in different direction with setting and mechanics, but so did me3 which is always compared to warframe.

Never underestimate idiocy. Never! I mean look at me.^^

Cheesing is also very idiot proof in PAYDAY... so long as you have a brain and two hands. Though you do need to press more than one button most of the time, I'll give you that.

 

They're very different games. I don't see a TP game with space ninjas almost flying around insta-gibbing/CC'ing hordes of enemies in PAYDAY.

I don't see a FP game with bank robbers, with a minimum of teamwork/strategy required to succeed in Warframe.

Warframe isn't a first person shooter, come on. It's a shoot'em all/hack and slash. It's closer to a Dynasty Warriors (Sangokumusō) than it is a FPS.

Edited July 6, 2015 by Marthrym

[Davoodoo]

Never underestimate idiocy. Never! I mean look at me.^^

Cheesing is also very idiot proof in PAYDAY... so long as you have a brain and two hands. Though you do need to press more than one button most of the time, I'll give you that.

 

They're very different games. I don't see a TP game with space ninjas almost flying around insta-gibbing/CC'ing hordes of enemies in PAYDAY.

I don't see a FP game with bank robbers, with a minimum of teamwork/strategy required to succeed in Warframe.

Warframe isn't a first person shooter, come on. It's a shoot'em all/hack and slash. It's closer to a Dynasty Warriors (Sangokumusō) than it is a FPS.

Tbh only thing common we have with dynasty warriors is strength of enemy grunts, at this point even dynasty warriors is harder as they at least have bosses which can do something.

 

And game was changed into that by adding more stuff in, more dmg, more enemies, more mods, more frames. 

Constant additions without control turned difficulty into joke.

 

I remember times when game was closer to me3 or payday 2 when popping from behind a wall meant you would die and there was no possibility of ressing you under fire, when toxic ancient was equivalent of dozer or atlas/banshee, when on lech kril i was depleting all ammo i had and finished him with melee. What about powers you ask?? you used your ult to kill guys 5 rooms ago, you wont have energy to cast another for at least next 5 rooms.

 

Ppl didnt like changes back then so de simply added stuff until they broke game and ppl who said that they prefer that are mostly gone by now because they couldnt stand hordes of enemies which they fought so much to prevent happening.

Edited July 6, 2015 by Davoodoo

[(PSN)WiiConquered]

Never underestimate idiocy. Never! I mean look at me.^^

Cheesing is also very idiot proof in PAYDAY... so long as you have a brain and two hands. Though you do need to press more than one button most of the time, I'll give you that.

 

They're very different games. I don't see a TP game with space ninjas almost flying around insta-gibbing/CC'ing hordes of enemies in PAYDAY.

I don't see a FP game with bank robbers, with a minimum of teamwork/strategy required to succeed in Warframe.

Warframe isn't a first person shooter, come on. It's a shoot'em all/hack and slash. It's closer to a Dynasty Warriors (Sangokumusō) than it is a FPS.

Another place where your Dynasty Warriors comparison falls off is that in Dynasty Warriors, the game is actually designed to be easy. Enemy mooks do almost nothing and can be dispatched without thought; most don't have any mechanics besides "swing sword" and "run"--and they do neither particularly often or well.

In Warframe, the devs have tried to add depth to every random mook. Enemies like Scorpions, Butchers, Moas, Chargers, Leapers, Troopers, Ballistas, and even Lancers can be lethal quickly, and all have a variety of attacks designed to make them matter. This is in direct contradiction with player power, which can easily prevent them from mattering. Why would DE bother with a variety of enemies if they were all supposed to be killed off or incapacitated within seconds of seeing the player?

[Marthrym]

Tbh only thing common we have with dynasty warriors is strength of enemy grunts, at this point even dynasty warriors is harder as they at least have bosses which can do something.

 

And game was changed into that by adding more stuff in, more dmg, more enemies, more mods, more frames. 

Constant additions without control turned difficulty into joke.

 

I remember times when game was closer to me3 or payday 2 when popping from behind a wall meant you would die and there was no possibility of ressing you under fire, when toxic ancient was equivalent of dozer or atlas/banshee, when on lech kril i was depleting all ammo i had and finished him with melee. What about powers you ask?? you used your ult to kill guys 5 rooms ago, you wont have energy to cast another for at least next 5 rooms.

 

Ppl didnt like changes back then so de simply added stuff until they broke game and ppl who said that they prefer that are mostly gone by now because they couldnt stand hordes of enemies which they fought so much to prevent happening.

Man, old times. You know what you leave, not what you'll get... In this case some old things weren't so bad in retrospect... If only we had known then.

I actually miss the old toxic ancients. No BS auras, just stay the Hek out of their "hair" or else...

 

When I compare this game to Dynasty Warriors, I'm talking about the "structure". Lots of weak enemies, which you easily dispatch. A few "tougher" enemies here and there, well supposedly tougher, usually they die just as fast...

Of course that's before scaling comes into play. But I'm not talking scaling here, it's another issue entirely. I've said MANY times before, enemy scaling in Warframe is a bit crosseyed. It's the main strucutre of the game I was comparing to DW.

 

 

Another place where your Dynasty Warriors comparison falls off is that in Dynasty Warriors, the game is actually designed to be easy. Enemy mooks do almost nothing and can be dispatched without thought; most don't have any mechanics besides "swing sword" and "run"--and they do neither particularly often or well.

In Warframe, the devs have tried to add depth to every random mook. Enemies like Scorpions, Butchers, Moas, Chargers, Leapers, Troopers, Ballistas, and even Lancers can be lethal quickly, and all have a variety of attacks designed to make them matter. This is in direct contradiction with player power, which can easily prevent them from mattering. Why would DE bother with a variety of enemies if they were all supposed to be killed off or incapacitated within seconds of seeing the player?

See, you go too deep in the similarity search here. You compare each and every little detail. I'm talking genre, not intricate design. In essence, before all the shiny covering and scaling come in, It's basically Dynasty Warriors. Throngs of weak enemies you run through easy peasy. A boss here and there (would be cool if they were used more maybe).

 

As for diversity... don't most mooks with guns just run to cover and shoot? Don't those equiped with melee weapons mostly just run straight towards you? The only thing that makes them even remotely dangerous is scaling. They have interesting mechanics, or at least some of them,  like the procs, special attacks, phases (the ones that exclude invulnerability...), weakpoints, all that jazz, I like it. Keeps you more alert.

 

But enemy scaling, more than us, kills all that. We have to use tactics that prevent enemies from doing anything because at some point just them doing that one thing is a guaranted death sentence! It's a broken component that unfortunately is used in conjunction with the RNG based reward system a lot more than all the "leveled" content is. I mean the sweet spot is there! Somewhere in the game! It's just drowning, smothered by the 2 extremes. After that, sure, maybe it's also our fault for abusing these tactics. But why are we using them in the first place? Because we coerced into it. Now we have this bad habit. Like smoking! Well, maybe not like smoking, but you see the idea, right?

 

I understand that it's not easy to make a balanced, challenging AND fun game, all at the same time. But man, why is the core still not "improved"? Why so much horizontal content, and not more vertical? We're swimming in a huge, yet shallow pool! That's what I hoped would change with this "year of quality". I've seen one or two things get better, that's great, kudos devs, but many more, older issues are still present. I know the devs are probably overworked and spread too thin, but isn't that a clear enough signal for them to hit the brakes and regroup? Wouldn't it be better in the long run to focus all efforts on the key components, even if only for a little while?^^'

Edited July 6, 2015 by Marthrym