Paul_Pianoff Posted June 27, 2015 Share Posted June 27, 2015 It was very exciting to see the new iteration of Parkour 2.0 in Devstream 53: it was fast, fluid and most importantly looked cool. I was eagerly waiting for the devs to show it off in-game and they did in Devstream 55. After seeing it, however, I became filled with disappointment. Here are some of the problems I saw with Parkour 2.0, in order of importance: 1) It's slow. It's really, really slow. Much slower than what we have right now. The point of Parkour 2.0 was to make movement less about muscle memory and more about skill, rewarding good execution with high momentum. What we've been shown doesn't look speedy at all. Rebecca said that Parkour 2.0 sacrifices speed for control - then here is my question: why can't we have both? Why can't it be both quick and controllabe? I do not see why you would need to sacrifice one for the other. If I were presented with a choice - Parkour 2.0 in its current shape or Parkour 1.0 with movement capabalities like coptering and aerial melee - I would choose the latter, because it looks cooler and is much faster. 2) It's too floaty. In before, this point is written under assumption that the animations shown are not placeholders, which I highly hope they are. We've been shown badass ninja wall-dashing in Devstream 53, whatever happened to that? Those dashy jump animations looked way cooler than wall-bunny-hopping a-la Flappy Bird from Devstream 55, and I also believe that dashy jumps instead of floaty jumps will serve a better gameplay purpose: firstly, it will provide a better sense of momentum as you move; secondly, you will not need to worry about about hitting your head against the ceiling during horizontal wall navigation, as the jumps will be more horizontally-oriented; thirdly, it will make it less double jump oriented, which actually leads me into my (coincidentally) third point... 3) It relies too much on double jumping. You cannot perform jumps over long distances (again, something dashy jumps would allow) - instead, you must be constantly double-jumping to get to your desired position. This presents us with even more unnecessary space bar mashing. What I propose (in addition to my previous points) is increase horizontal distance for jumping. It will allow players to decrease the amount of space bar mashing required while also allowing more freedom due to increased jump and double jump distances. Yes, I am aware that it is a WIP. But as soon anything is publicized (and they did show Parkour 2.0 publically) it is eligibile to be criticized. Browsing through the forums, I found many people who share my concerns, so hopefully DE will acknowledge players' feedback and shape Parkour 2.0 to be a better system. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
-dicht.ThanksFrost- Posted June 27, 2015 Share Posted June 27, 2015 I agree with the speed part, as a avid conclave player and frost enthuasist. I exploit coptering and wall bouncing for its speed. Now that coptering will be removed and we are slow. I feel that this new system will just ruin the game for me, this is a fast paced sci-fi shooter, I wanna be somewhat fast regardless of my frame. At the end of the day when i see 3 heavy gunners im not going to run up a wall, im going to run to cover. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
9tailboy Posted June 27, 2015 Share Posted June 27, 2015 I think parkour 2.0 will be very good, double jump is not necessary, but this reminds me of the smash mechanic with double jump and if you have a melee, you get a recovery(directional melee), also, parkour isn't necessarily based on speed and movement, most of it has to do with control of mind and action, if you run too fast, you eventually stick yourself into a wall, which is what this will fix. About this floaty part is hard to understand, have you tried using zephyr and parkour? Because of her lightweight, she is able to go around long distances and move very freely, in fact, you can get under 30 secs using zephyr in the parkour room with the right build, making floatation much better than dashing. Now about this no coptering thing... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyreuzs Posted June 27, 2015 Share Posted June 27, 2015 (edited) Totally agree. I'll just leave this here: Parkour 2.0: I really love the idea of the momentum system and i was incredibly positively surprised when the devs showed us the first concept gif's in devstream 53. But the system they showed us in the latest devstream (#55) is much more similar to flappy bird than to the first concept gif's. Here are the gif's from devstream #53: At the moment the system involves double jump. Which is definitly not a bad idea. But after every single contact with a surface the double jump is retriggered making it spam requiring. And since you can't jump longer distances between walls (as shown on the progress of the system) you have to double jump every time in the air from one wall to the next. I will try to post a gif or video as soon as possible to show the system at current state in action and to illustrate why i am so disappointed of it, as it is right now. An additional change which would improve the system is to decrease the time which is needed to build up momentum and give us a speed boost just as we recieve now from wall runs with the only difference that the boosts should be actually controllable. This would make the longer range jumps between different objects possible as it was planned by the devs on early concept. I hope that the devs notice this and make it more similar to the first concept gifs. Maybe they can prevent warframe then to be called flappy bird 2.0. https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/481163-parkour-20-flappy-bird-parkour-feedback-on-its-current-state/#entry5365891 Edited June 27, 2015 by Tyreuzs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SullyTheStalker Posted June 27, 2015 Share Posted June 27, 2015 Keep in mind that DE Rebecca said that she had a bit of trouble switching to the new controls, and that she wasn't really able to demonstrate Parkour 2.0's full capabilities. You said it yourself - "more about skill", which she might not have been able to show after switching back and forth between the old system and the new system. I would wait until they actually release it to give feedback, and only after I'd get the feel of the new movement system down myself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rorgal_Sina Posted June 27, 2015 Share Posted June 27, 2015 No one ever said Warframe was meant to be x paced, but as long as the change improves gameplay and most importantly fun, I don't see a problem... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kamachi Posted June 27, 2015 Share Posted June 27, 2015 Parkour 2.0 just seems like nothing more than a way to make it easier for console players.I absolutely hate the look of it.However I'll make my final judgement when it's shipped and we start using it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
9tailboy Posted June 27, 2015 Share Posted June 27, 2015 I agree with the speed part, as a avid conclave player and frost enthuasist. I exploit coptering and wall bouncing for its speed. Now that coptering will be removed and we are slow. I feel that this new system will just ruin the game for me, this is a fast paced sci-fi shooter, I wanna be somewhat fast regardless of my frame. At the end of the day when i see 3 heavy gunners im not going to run up a wall, im going to run to cover. Conclave players exploit too much into the PvP where its almost unfair for new players or unexperienced players to actually put in interests on the conclave itself, thats why I don't do PvP at all, because the exploitation to have insane power and control just ruins the fun, I can't even play conclave without joining the losing team, having the host disconnect, and restart the process. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AXCrusnik Posted June 27, 2015 Share Posted June 27, 2015 This is exactly how I feel about it on all points... it doesn't feel fast and ninja-like... It's more like a 3D platformer kinda feel. Like Psychonauts or something. While Psychonauts is good game and all... Psychonauts platforming isn't the first thing that comes to mind when I imagine Warframes "parkouring". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BalancedFury Posted June 27, 2015 Share Posted June 27, 2015 calm down warframe dev team is known for listening to players not only it needed lots of polish but also you're not seeing the potential of the parkour, its a ninja game not a superman game they will figure out something to please everyone Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul_Pianoff Posted June 27, 2015 Author Share Posted June 27, 2015 calm down warframe dev team is known for listening to players not only it needed lots of polish but also you're not seeing the potential of the parkour, its a ninja game not a superman game they will figure out something to please everyone You have obviously not read my post. Please do so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(PSN)MakoPriest Posted June 27, 2015 Share Posted June 27, 2015 Parkour 2.0 just seems like nothing more than a way to make it easier for console players. I absolutely hate the look of it. However I'll make my final judgement when it's shipped and we start using it. Yeah because its so hard to do parkour on consoles....Not really. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kracken Posted June 27, 2015 Share Posted June 27, 2015 (edited) and I'm strongly concerned how about how people are willing to defend coptering ... You have obviously not read my post. Please do so. i thing he did ... Edited June 27, 2015 by Cracken Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rorgal_Sina Posted June 27, 2015 Share Posted June 27, 2015 This is exactly how I feel about it on all points... it doesn't feel fast and ninja-like... It's more like a 3D platformer kinda feel. Like Psychonauts or something. While Psychonauts is good game and all... Psychonauts platforming isn't the first thing that comes to mind when I imagine Warframes "parkouring". Ninja doesn't necessarily mean fast. Coptering is not parkouring either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VKhaun Posted June 27, 2015 Share Posted June 27, 2015 (edited) 1) Maybe. I think what we have no is silly fast. Can't count how many times I've been totally screwed in a survival I should have left ten minutes ago, but it's no biggie because, I can just copter to extraction right past everything and take very few hits. Can't count how many times I joined an alert, shot the first enemy and watched as my whole team sprinted forward totally ignoring all the enemies to just pop the reactor and copter to extraction. HOWEVER we also want more stealth and exploration in the game. If the players are all slowed down, that means catching up takes a lot longer. Taking a step into a side room to check for a medallion, or having to go back because someone else found one, now becomes a much bigger deal as you will spend more time walking to get back to the team. 2) No. I think that's just the animations being rough. When you see the frames animated properly I think it'll feel less "floating" because hang time will look right based on where their limbs are pushing/holding, rather than just a random "boing" while near something. 3) No. F*** bunny hopping. It was never cool. It was always a stupid physics system that made everyone play like rabbits on crack. I hate spin jumping through the relay, I hate spin jumping all over the map, jumping is for vertical movement not horizontal. Sprinting is for horizontal movement. Wall... flinging... whatever is for horizontal movement. Not jumping. If you add more distance for going over gaps I'd say you also need to to slow it down so it doesn't compete with anything else for going forward. There's a balance to find there where it doesn't feel silly and isn't useless, but that balance point should be behind sprinting IMO. Edited June 27, 2015 by VKhaun Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
-dicht.ThanksFrost- Posted June 27, 2015 Share Posted June 27, 2015 Conclave players exploit too much into the PvP where its almost unfair for new players or unexperienced players to actually put in interests on the conclave itself, thats why I don't do PvP at all, because the exploitation to have insane power and control just ruins the fun, I can't even play conclave without joining the losing team, having the host disconnect, and restart the process. Im a old fart in pvp i dont power control that much, very little to be honest. But back on topic, regardlesss if there is coptering or not, the new system is too slow. I can still be quick on my feet without copterin but with this new system it feels that players will be even more grounded than before, and that is not right either. Sure remove coptering, i dont care but dont make me have to struggle in last place behind my teammates when i use aslow frame like frost or have to actually camp and use cover in pvp. PvP in a game about scifi space ninjas parkouring, not a cover shooter. And the speed of 2.0 parkour will direct more players to grounded playstyles and not fast skill movement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rorgal_Sina Posted June 27, 2015 Share Posted June 27, 2015 Im a old fart in pvp i dont power control that much, very little to be honest. But back on topic, regardlesss if there is coptering or not, the new system is too slow. I can still be quick on my feet without copterin but with this new system it feels that players will be even more grounded than before, and that is not right either. Sure remove coptering, i dont care but dont make me have to struggle in last place behind my teammates when i use aslow frame like frost or have to actually camp and use cover in pvp. PvP in a game about scifi space ninjas parkouring, not a cover shooter. And the speed of 2.0 parkour will direct more players to grounded playstyles and not fast skill movement. Fast skill movement when the movement was based on gear, not skill... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
-dicht.ThanksFrost- Posted June 27, 2015 Share Posted June 27, 2015 (edited) Fast skill movement when the movement was based on gear, not skill... You can copter with any weapon, I main the Jat Jitag a slow hammer. Yet I find myself infront of my squad. Are you also saying that the current system did not take skill? Have you played a 1.0 europa match? you should see how much skill is required. Edited June 27, 2015 by Eureka.seveN Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rorgal_Sina Posted June 27, 2015 Share Posted June 27, 2015 You can copter with any weapon, I main the Jat Jitag a slow hammer. Yet I find myself infront of my squad. Are you also saying that the current system did not take skill? Have you played a 1.0 europa match? you should see how much skill is required. Actually... I did. It wasn't very hard, and you still can't copter with the Jat. The air directional melee isn't half as fast as the copter gods. As evidence to me playing Europa, I know what SFU is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluntpuffer Posted June 27, 2015 Share Posted June 27, 2015 Whatever, warframe mobility skills finally coming to a good use. All the other stuff just needs getting used to. Am quite sure we'll be flying through maps just as we would right now but in a cooler way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thalahssalyst Posted June 27, 2015 Share Posted June 27, 2015 Parkour 2.0 is not Slow.You can be fast we constant movement, did you see the devstream? Did you see the distance and speed what rebbeca cover with his constant moves?I think you dont.Wall hop FEELS slow, is not, because it have alot of animations, compare the wallrun time with wall hop time.About coptering, its a gamebreak unbalanced that needs, and its going to be fixed.About speed, rebecca was unmodded exca without mods.About animations, maybe a little more of "fluid"...The double jumping mechanic its awesome... You can not touch the ground with constant jumps hops and that, preventing the player for running if doing well...What more people need?This new system is what i waiting for, a balanced movement system not dependend of your melee weapon.Wall hop works on all tilesets and prevent for stuck in Doors holes...Wall Climb do the same... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BoneBreakerx Posted June 27, 2015 Share Posted June 27, 2015 calm down warframe dev team is known for listening to players how does this make eny sense at all? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RahuHordika Posted June 27, 2015 Share Posted June 27, 2015 and I'm strongly concerned how about how people are willing to defend coptering ... And I am strongly concerned about how many people are so obsessed against coptering they think that's the only reason parkour 2.0 is criticized at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marthrym Posted June 27, 2015 Share Posted June 27, 2015 Parkour 2.0 just seems like nothing more than a way to make it easier for console players. I absolutely hate the look of it. However I'll make my final judgement when it's shipped and we start using it. I don't understand that statement DESteve made. I play both with mouse+keyboard and a controller (to avoid losing my edge with it, since the controller is much better for some types of games than mouse+keyboard), and honestly, parkour 1.0 isn't hard at all on a controller. any console player will say the same I'm sure... I don't get it. I really like some parts of what I saw during devstream 55, sticking to walls for instance, the ability to really scale walls and reach basically any place much more easily, but it's a shame some of the features shown in devstream 53 weren't there anymore. Wallrunning feels really floaty now, it felt better and more fluid in the video caps from devstream 53. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drufo Posted June 27, 2015 Share Posted June 27, 2015 I had great hopes for Parkour 2.0 after what they showed in the latest streams, but this... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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