Vauban Drop Is Kind Of Unfair

[Venarge]

Thats a pretty big deal

Because the game is made of only these 2 frames that only drop from the alerts and the glaive. There is nothing else....

 

There is plenty of content that can be achieved by just playing. I dont see why new content should be available for everyone from the start.

[Archivian]

You can get just about anything in the game either by playing a lot, or by following the twitter alert system. The goal of game makers is to get players to make a game part of their routine, and the alerts are there for that. It is to keep the game in players minds even when they aren't playing.

 

Like it or not, that is a critical component of game theory for subscription and Free to Play models.

 

People will always ask "Why can't I just have X".

 

The answer is, because if you just got all of the stuff you wanted, there would be no business model. And with no business model, there would be no game.

 

except this whole thing isn't about "why cant i just have X". Nothing in this whole thread has even been about that. Its about how disproportionate the alert system is and how your investment of time is forcefully reduced, making the only other viable option to pay.

 

Also, making it part of the routine:

Yeah your totally right. The difference in this game  to i think all other f2p games, is that your encouraged NOT to log in to the game. 

Running "daily's " in f2p games does build a routine, but it works(ish) because players can choose when to invest that time and how often. Additionally, because those "daily's" are restricted to being once a day, the prizes generally suck or top up other resources. 

 

With the alerts, it encourages being logged out the game (which just means I will play a different game)

And if I get a ping on my phone about an alert (specifically a "?" alert), do I immediately stop  my other game that is rewarding me for my investment of time for a low chance  to get something in Warframe that I don't have?

 

eventually warframe will lose that choice which is a shame.

[Archivian]

Because the game is made of only these 2 frames that only drop from the alerts and the glaive. There is nothing else....

 

There is plenty of content that can be achieved by just playing. I dont see why new content should be available for everyone from the start.

 

Its an issue for me personally because I already got everything else. I wanted to get. I didn't buy my way through it played my way through it. However I did spend a fairly decent amount of money on the game, for things like cosmetics and Orikin Reactors (until i realized they dropped in alerts, at that time i didn't realize this was a "wiki game". 

 

It took me about a month-ish, and I have hit the end game wall already. I don't have too much issue with that as this is beta and so am willing to wait to see what they add. But at end game, the mechanics of the game encourage me not to be logged in. In fact, information about the game that might keep me logged in, eg - game lore, items info etc are all found outside the game.

 

I actually sit in the modding section of the game and constantly make adjustments and only do missions to see how they play out (outside of doing alerts).

 

I'm actually trying to find reasons to keep playing in some ways. 

 

I don't know if anyone else has had these kind of problems though, some of what I have said here is very subjective. 

[Emotitron]

except this whole thing isn't about "why cant i just have X". Nothing in this whole thread has even been about that. Its about how disproportionate the alert system is and how your investment of time is forcefully reduced, making the only other viable option to pay.

 

But actually it kind of is.

Almost all of the  weapons/frames in the game you can get by grinding. There are only a few items in the game that currently require following alerts. The Vauban is one of those things. It was just released, so rather than just giving it away right away, DE is using it as an incentive to either buy it or start following the alert system.

It isn't like they are withholding all the goodies to non-paying people, and even this item will likely be thrown into the common pool when the next shiny new thing comes out. I got the glaive as an alert reward like a week or two after it was released.

People complaining that they can't get their hands in it right away are pretty much saying "Why can't I just have X?"

The answer is... "you will, just not yet" - because DE has to get their value out of adding that new content first.

[Venarge]

Its an issue for me personally because I already got everything else. I wanted to get. I didn't buy my way through it played my way through it. However I did spend a fairly decent amount of money on the game, for things like cosmetics and Orikin Reactors (until i realized they dropped in alerts, at that time i didn't realize this was a "wiki game". 

 

It took me about a month-ish, and I have hit the end game wall already. I don't have too much issue with that as this is beta and so am willing to wait to see what they add. But at end game, the mechanics of the game encourage me not to be logged in. In fact, information about the game that might keep me logged in, eg - game lore, items info etc are all found outside the game.

 

I actually sit in the modding section of the game and constantly make adjustments and only do missions to see how they play out (outside of doing alerts).

 

I'm actually trying to find reasons to keep playing in some ways. 

 

I don't know if anyone else has had these kind of problems though, some of what I have said here is very subjective. 

Ok, I do understand you. It´s annoying to not get the remaining stuff if you already have all these things. I am now working on

Saryn and Ember. I just need those cuties :3

And I totally understand that you, if already paid some bucks, are actually not willing to pay more. Maybe something awesome that comes out in the future makes you think different. The best reason to play is, at least for me, to have fun. Playing with my friends makes this one of the best games i have ever played. ^^ But well. This is a personal view and your intentions might differ. But well. New updates are coming. And if I ever get vauban in BP´s I will gladly give him to you :D

[Emotitron]

It took me about a month-ish, and I have hit the end game wall already. I don't have too much issue with that as this is beta and so am willing to wait to see what they add. But at end game, the mechanics of the game encourage me not to be logged in. In fact, information about the game that might keep me logged in, eg - game lore, items info etc are all found outside the game.

 

I'm actually trying to find reasons to keep playing in some ways. 

 

I don't know if anyone else has had these kind of problems though, some of what I have said here is very subjective. 

 

It isn't just you, there is a very large end game wall. I hit it at week two once I maxed out a couple warframes and a few of the key weapons. My mods were high enough that I could solo any boss, and since then I have just been casually leveling other weapons that might have a future. Many of us are just crossing our fingers (and nagging on forums) that DE will get serious about coming up with a long-term plan for how this game keep scaling with a very limited content development team.

[catastrophy]

I don't even care to hunt the parts. I couldn't even find all the Banshee blueprints unless I bought her.

[DeadlyNerd]

Vauban is a new warframe and making him a boss drop right off the bat would create flavor of the month and FotM is a @(*()$ bad thing.

You don't want it.

I've seen FotM in its worst form in MWO where each month a new battlemech was overused and variety was null, just because it was obtainable right off the bat.

 

I can only ask for it to be a boss drop in a month or so, when the dust settles.

That said I'm completely content with how it's obtainable now.

[ZWarhammer]

Well the systems for Vauban already dropped so..

[Archivian]

Vauban is a new warframe and making him a boss drop right off the bat would create flavor of the month and FotM is a @(*()$ bad thing.

You don't want it.

I've seen FotM in its worst form in MWO where each month a new battlemech was overused and variety was null, just because it was obtainable right off the bat.

 

I can only ask for it to be a boss drop in a month or so, when the dust settles.

That said I'm completely content with how it's obtainable now.

 

 

I see what your saying, and if it became a boss drop, then that boss would have the crap farmed out of it until all the parts dropped. I totally agree. 

 

I also agree that that can be seriously overused in a game. 

 

But that isn't the players problem actually, thats the Dev's problem (and not an easy one to overcome), its a system that is re used and has the same flaws and no innovation has been done to better THAT system, this is the current result of Dev choices. Instead the alert system is introduced, which kudos for giving something a try, but it has a lot of flaws AND alienates players from the game. So much so that other mechanics outside the game have to be used to keep people linked to the stuff going on in the game (twitter etc).  Thats a lot of extra infrastructure to do something that the game should be doing naturally.

 

All the while the result as a player is. 

' i have nothing to do but twiddle my thumps until a "?" pops up which can sometimes take hours."

 

 

But actually it kind of is.

Almost all of the  weapons/frames in the game you can get by grinding. There are only a few items in the game that currently require following alerts. The Vauban is one of those things. It was just released, so rather than just giving it away right away, DE is using it as an incentive to either buy it or start following the alert system.

It isn't like they are withholding all the goodies to non-paying people, and even this item will likely be thrown into the common pool when the next shiny new thing comes out. I got the glaive as an alert reward like a week or two after it was released.

People complaining that they can't get their hands in it right away are pretty much saying "Why can't I just have X?"

The answer is... "you will, just not yet" - because DE has to get their value out of adding that new content first.

 

 

U just equated hour/days (maybe weeks for some people) of grinding for an item as being the SAME as get something right now.

 

If that is your view then this whole topic may be lost on you.

 

 

No one has said there shouldnt be a long grind time. The fact is there is no ability to grind for it in the first place. You cant really grind for something that is only there for a small portion of the day, at different times in the day, which is random, so few and random I have to use out of game mechanics (gimmicks) just to keep track of when those random times occur. 

 

Note: most of what I said there isn't even to do with game play. Coz I don't get to play the game, I get to wait for a chance to play the game and have to decide between my irl schedule and what ever the game decides its schedule is for that day. 

 

Heck its not even at a set time/s every day for me to design my life around their timetable should i be so inclined. 

 

And if its a casual gamer approach you want, well, I play the ones that pop up as my schedule allows. 

Well now I play the game even less, and when I do play I have high odds on getting practically nothing out of it. 

 

and essentially I have less rolls at the dice per day when trying to get an item, where before I could trade my time for what is effectively dice rolls for an item, or I could pay money to get rid of the dice all together. 

 

Now, as far as the Vauban Warframe,  I can just pay to get rid of the dice or

I have to be successful with x3 dice rolls to get the suit, So I have to run mission x3 more than for any other alert item. AND I get significantly less chances to roll a dice due to it being an "?" alert not just a normal alert, AND I can't invest my time in the game to get more dice rolls.

 

I get that the "free" players will probably be second to "pay" players. But the only thing invested by "free" players is time, and now, as far the "?" alerts, we can't do that.

 

My own play time has dropped from several hours in an evening to about 20mins of actual game time. With the occasional bump in play time as I help friends level as they are much more the casual gamer type. 

 

And some of them won't buy that suit coz the warframe prices are so high. Though they still buy plat for customization. 

They are in a similar position, they are paying gamers, who can't put in more time than they already do, but they will have to wait and twiddle thumbs when it comes to the Vauban Warframe just like i do and every other player who may not be able to afford the suit.

 

 

Maybe now you see how grinding for an item is not the same as saying "I just want it now" ? 

 

just to add: sorry for the wall of text

Edited May 22, 2013 by Archivian

[DeadlyNerd]

But that isn't the players problem actually, thats the Dev's problem (and not an easy one to overcome), its a system that is re used and has the same flaws and no innovation has been done to better THAT system, this is the current result of Dev choices. Instead the alert system is introduced, which kudos for giving something a try, but it has a lot of flaws AND alienates players from the game. So much so that other mechanics outside the game have to be used to keep people linked to the stuff going on in the game (twitter etc).  Thats a lot of extra infrastructure to do something that the game should be doing naturally.

 

All the while the result as a player is. 

' i have nothing to do but twiddle my thumps until a "?" pops up which can sometimes take hours."

 

 

Definitely, but there aren't many(or any at all) simple solutions to this problem.

Making every alert randomly award(or not) BPs would increase the ease of acquiring certain rare items. Making the chance very low would provoke the community which has just been handed a potato and obviously will want more.

 

I would definitely like a more elaborate alert system, or a dev made alert notification app, but I'm also fine with there being none, rather than numerous unfinished ones.

[Tsukinoki]

@DeadlyNerd

There is an alert app, called Warframe Nexus, that will alert you when an alert comes up and tell you what all of the rewards are. You can even tell it to only alert you about BP alerts or artifact alerts if you want. And it is made by DE.

[Archivian]

@DeadlyNerd

There is an alert app, called Warframe Nexus, that will alert you when an alert comes up and tell you what all of the rewards are. You can even tell it to only alert you about BP alerts or artifact alerts if you want. And it is made by DE.

 

On that point, is there a way to get it to notify you for the Vauban BP's? 

Out of the whole list I only need about 3 things, but the Vauban BP's don't seem to be in the app atm.

 

 

am I missing something really obvious?

[BoogieMan82]

Greetings:

 

If you use the Android Nexus App you can filter the "?" to only show the alert items you want.  Also the twitter feed/Facebook feed/Nexus App says what the "?" is for any given alert.

 

Also #4 is false.

 

I hope this helps a little!

 

 

[Excitonex]

I don't get how making the system just as random is going to solve people's RNG problems. Why does it matter when the alert's reward is decided? There is literally no difference between a system where every alert is random for each player and one that is random for all players. You will still have X% chance that the alert that shows up while you're online is the item you want. It just means you'll have people log on to hit every single ? alert in hopes that they'll finally get the item they want. So instead of looking at twitter to decide if you should log in or not you will look at twitter and feel an immediate need to log in because of the "Schrodinger's Item" effect.

[Argoms]

I don't get how making the system just as random is going to solve people's RNG problems. Why does it matter when the alert's reward is decided? There is literally no difference between a system where every alert is random for each player and one that is random for all players. 

There is a huge psychological difference. If the reward is the same for everyone, it's possible to miss alerts. Not getting an item is blamed on the player, whatever they were doing etc. With randomized per-player alerts, nobody ever complains that they were walking their dog/going to eat/at work etc. when the potato popped up. 

[f3llyn]

What is unfair about it? Just because you now want it doesnt makes it any more unfair then already existing stuff like heat dagger/dark sword/ dark dagger / ceramic dagger....

 

People never made any threads about how unfair these weapon drops are, because they arent. These threads now only exist because people dont have any patience for new stuff....

 

It may not be "unfair" but that doesn't change the fact that RNG us a pretty lazy game mechanic. In any and all games.

 

No ideas for how to give out rewards? Throw it in an RNG box. Problem solved! Really is a shame there isn't a forum where thousands upon thousands of people would be more than happy to toss a few ideas out for new reward mechanics.

 

Can't really blame DE though, RNG super fun time boxes are a big thing even in triple A games like GW2.

[Excitonex]

There is a huge psychological difference. If the reward is the same for everyone, it's possible to miss alerts. Not getting an item is blamed on the player, whatever they were doing etc. With randomized per-player alerts, nobody ever complains that they were walking their dog/going to eat/at work etc. when the potato popped up. 

I can see where you're coming from but it doesn't make much sense when you consider the fact that if every ? alert has a chance to drop your item then until you've finished the alert and the item is decided every ? alert drops your item. Every alert you miss is you missing your item. Not only that but this system will end up burning players out much faster as some people will be able to run 5+ ? alerts a day every day for a month and be done with the game.

[Argoms]

I can see where you're coming from but it doesn't make much sense when you consider the fact that if every ? alert has a chance to drop your item then until you've finished the alert and the item is decided every ? alert drops your item. Every alert you miss is you missing your item. Not only that but this system will end up burning players out much faster as some people will be able to run 5+ ? alerts a day every day for a month and be done with the game.

An alert you miss doesn't guarantee that you just missed your only shot at this item for a while. At the moment, say you want a glaive. There is only one kind of alert that could give you a glaive, and every other alert that pops up in the time will never give you the glaive you want.

Alerts don't keep players playing more, they encourage not playing the game at all. The twitter alert feed means that you can tell when the item you want pops up without even being in-game. 

[DeadlyNerd]

@DeadlyNerd

There is an alert app, called Warframe Nexus, that will alert you when an alert comes up and tell you what all of the rewards are. You can even tell it to only alert you about BP alerts or artifact alerts if you want. And it is made by DE.

Didn't know about that one, I'm just using the windows gadget. Does it for me.

[Archivian]

I don't get how making the system just as random is going to solve people's RNG problems. Why does it matter when the alert's reward is decided? There is literally no difference between a system where every alert is random for each player and one that is random for all players. You will still have X% chance that the alert that shows up while you're online is the item you want. It just means you'll have people log on to hit every single ? alert in hopes that they'll finally get the item they want. So instead of looking at twitter to decide if you should log in or not you will look at twitter and feel an immediate need to log in because of the "Schrodinger's Item" effect.

 

There is a pretty big difference.

 

You run a mission so at the end your actual reward is a dice roll (if its random). Or for the prize at the end (if the prize is pre-desginated)

 

basically 1 mission = 1 a prize.

 

If it is a planet boss run. You can run the mission as many times as you want to receive a prize. Your investment is time in the game. Often ALOT of time. That means, if you have a lot of time for your game, you potentially have alot of chances to get a prize.

 

The Alert system eliminates that. So now if you don't buy the item. You're stuck with only one run for your prize, when the game decides its time, not you the player.

 

Its not psycological or anything, its simply about having the option to trade your time for more rolls at the dice to win your prize. If you want to bypass  the whole thing you can just by the item.

 

As for it being harder to build ur Vauban warframe because of this. The Vauban requires 3 items, not just one, making everything i mentioned above x3 more work with no way for a player to make it less work, or no way for the player to invest their time to do multiple runs to have more chances.

 

The closest thing to time efficiency is to step out of the game altogether and download an app, and get a twitter account and sub to their twitter, facebook and whatever else. This doesn't make your chances better, it just lets you waste lest time by playing less of the game. And not how none of this stuff is adding to the game, rather its propping up the game as the game itself does not hold the information for the players. Lets be honest, this is a wiki game. You want to know the lore? look at the wiki, want to inspect your weapon in detail? wiki etc.

 

As for alert notifications through the app etc. 

There is only 3 things on the list (in the app) that i don't have and Vauban BP's is not on the list. 

So really my actual gameplay is pretty much ending even though i don't want it to (I want to play and progress) because its better to not play the game at all, and wait for the notification. I have to pay more attention to social media than the game to find reason to log into the game. 

Also due to me only needing 3 items on the list, and it will only notify me when those alerts are available, when is there reason for me to keep playing the game. What if an alert with one of the 3 items does not come up that day? well then there is no reason to play the game until there is one.

 

So basically it is most efficient for me to stop playing the game altogether, and to make the best of my time I have to get accounts to other social media to find about what is happening in the game I am not playing. All the while, I wait for a notification that may not come for hours or maybe even a day or so, and when it appears on my mobile device (which i use because ITS MOBILE) I better hope I have that mobile device with me in front of my PC otherwise I probably wont get back to my PC on time to even attempt the mission. And then I will have to not play, wait/watch the social networks all over again.

 

 The upside to the Alerts I suppose is maybe it saves money. less bandwidth being used by players? I wonder if that is a consideration they have to have?

 

Anyway, thats why it makes a big difference.

 

EDIT (the reason i my posts are long is because I am waiting for an alert so there is reason for me to play lol)

Edited May 22, 2013 by Archivian

[Excitonex]

An alert you miss doesn't guarantee that you just missed your only shot at this item for a while. At the moment, say you want a glaive. There is only one kind of alert that could give you a glaive, and every other alert that pops up in the time will never give you the glaive you want.

Alerts don't keep players playing more, they encourage not playing the game at all. The twitter alert feed means that you can tell when the item you want pops up without even being in-game. 

Missing an alert now doesn't mean you missed your only shot for a while either. The alerts, as far as we know, are not dependent on what the previous alert was so there is the same chance that the next ? alert will be the item you want. The way you want to change alerts will force them into a grind. If I want Item Xtreme I have to gather 1 billion rabbit butts. This system is what kills MMO's for me. Warframe includes enough grind.

[Excitonex]

There is a pretty big difference.

 

You run a mission so at the end your actual reward is a dice roll (if its random). Or for the prize at the end (if the prize is pre-desginated)

 

basically 1 mission = 1 a prize.

 

If it is a planet boss run. You can run the mission as many times as you want to receive a prize. Your investment is time in the game. Often ALOT of time. That means, if you have a lot of time for your game, you potentially have alot of chances to get a prize.

 

The Alert system eliminates that. So now if you don't buy the item. You're stuck with only one run for your prize, when the game decides its time, not you the player.

 

Its not psycological or anything, its simply about having the option to trade your time for more rolls at the dice to win your prize. If you want to bypass  the whole thing you can just by the item.

 

As for it being harder to build ur Vauban warframe because of this. The Vauban requires 3 items, not just one, making everything i mentioned above x3 more work with no way for a player to make it less work, or no way for the player to invest their time to do multiple runs to have more chances.

 

The closest thing to time efficiency is to step out of the game altogether and download an app, and get a twitter account and sub to their twitter, facebook and whatever else. This doesn't make your chances better, it just lets you waste lest time by playing less of the game. And not how none of this stuff is adding to the game, rather its propping up the game as the game itself does not hold the information for the players. Lets be honest, this is a wiki game. You want to know the lore? look at the wiki, want to inspect your weapon in detail? wiki etc.

 

As for alert notifications through the app etc. 

There is only 3 things on the list (in the app) that i don't have and Vauban BP's is not on the list. 

So really my actual gameplay is pretty much ending even though i don't want it to (I want to play and progress) because its better to not play the game at all, and wait for the notification. I have to pay more attention to social media than the game to find reason to log into the game. 

Also due to me only needing 3 items on the list, and it will only notify me when those alerts are available, when is there reason for me to keep playing the game. What if an alert with one of the 3 items does not come up that day? well then there is no reason to play the game until there is one.

 

So basically it is most efficient for me to stop playing the game altogether, and to make the best of my time I have to get accounts to other social media to find about what is happening in the game I am not playing. All the while, I wait for a notification that may not come for hours or maybe even a day or so, and when it appears on my mobile device (which i use because ITS MOBILE) I better hope I have that mobile device with me in front of my PC otherwise I probably wont get back to my PC on time to even attempt the mission. And then I will have to not play, wait/watch the social networks all over again.

 

 The upside to the Alerts I suppose is maybe it saves money. less bandwidth being used by players? I wonder if that is a consideration they have to have?

 

Anyway, thats why it makes a big difference.

So you're saying that once you have Vauban and have nothing else in the game to do you'll play more? How does that argument make sense? People keep coming back to a game because there are things they haven't experienced or gained yet. If everything is easy to get then you finish the game quickly and move on before they can introduce more content.

[Archivian]

So you're saying that once you have Vauban and have nothing else in the game to do you'll play more? How does that argument make sense? People keep coming back to a game because there are things they haven't experienced or gained yet. If everything is easy to get then you finish the game quickly and move on before they can introduce more content.

 

Once I get the Vauban, and wait for it to build, then I will have fun leveling it, but mostly testing its powers to hell and back and messing with its mods. 

 

Yes I would play the game more, because there is reward/progression, something one would expect from any game. When that is done, I will be back at square one. There is little or no story/info given to the player to latch on to. Its only your weapons and warframe, pretty much anything else to do with the game is not yet in the game, in fact you can find it every but in the game lol. Its a Beta, and so a lot of things can be dismissed for a while but eventually it will grate at you.

 

But having nothing to do in a game, is on the Dev's. Thats why they are always trying to add content.  I will have to wait around for the next to be released. I tried to fill the time with farming for resources, but due to the limit on inventory, its not like I can endlessly build crap (though there would be no point even if i did).

 

Then I realized. If I farm enough resources I;m going to be able to build my suit straight away. Which means less reasons to play. So now I am not farming, so that when i finally do get the parts, I will have more reason to play coz then I will have to farm for resources. Im purposfully making the game longer to have something to do. 

 

Thats gotta be an issue for any game.

[JariWeis]

1. 30-40 minutes apart

2. Sorta. Look at twitter.com/warframealerts to see what the ? is

3. See 2

4. Incorrect, you always have the same chance.

5. Correct.

6. Follow Twitter, carry a laptop, have a trusted friend log you on, Or you know, pay DE some money for their free game.

 

 

One thing wrong with that is 4.

He didn't state it, but I think he meant that he means the parts you STILL need.