Why Not Design Your Game Around The Way You Actually Want It Played For Once. (No Tl;dr)

[Raniu]

 

I think that's one of the major problems of enemies varieties : They have various attack means, but lack different defense means. Given that our abilities are so strong, I think it is not too much to give each type of enemy 1 to 2 ability resistance. So the combat will be more cooperative and tactical.

 

+1, you all people should have a look at this.

 

 

Why do Quake Players and TF2 players keep playing the same game for so long? Granted this isn't a twitch / high skill ceiling FPS, but the point is there's plenty of games where the progression isn't what defines you, it's your experience. Experience through skill and the fun had on certain maps with certain friends, learning the game and enjoying having a solid grasp on its mechanics, mechanics that are interesting because of the depth , not because you hit level 30 on the 100th weapon that does just the same thing as some other. 

 

Gameplay should entice you because it's fun, that's the reward. Granted that doesn't do it for certain people. Some people only feel rewarded once they unlock the next tier of shiny, but you know what keeps most players playing? A solid combat system with an engaging world and system built around it, so it never feels like a chore, it feels challenging and even better once you get good at it. 

 

Thank you, 10/10. Now this is a gem.

 

 

 

Aaaaand then again...

It will fall on deaf ears. What I've come to realize lately, is that quite significant (whether the majority or the minority doesn't matter) part of the playerbase is playing a completely different game than you or I. A gambling simulator where you go to T4 press a button and every 5 minutes you get a random reward. To those people anything you say about interesting gameplay mechanics is incomprehensible.

Unfortunately this is how it is. Most people don't care. They wouldn't even read the OP. They do play a different game. A game that needs changes. The more DE should pay attention to the amazing ideas being posted almost every day on their forums. Especially that most of the ideas are not difficult to be introduced.

 

Well, I still have hope. Let the main concept be known.

 

(it might actually appear on the community hot topics or as the concept of the... week? dunno, on Prime Time)

[rockscl]

whenever i want this kind of teamwork and finely balanced experience i get into my [other game] account for a while, tbh, i hope that DE finds a way to make things nearly as finely teamworkish as the OP suggests, but in the meanwhile, warframe has other things to offer, one can optionally play however one prefers(for less or no rewards as stated in the op)

Edited July 2, 2015 by rockscl

[Eyeless]

-snip-

 

Thank you for your support, and I see what you mean with this problem. But remember the reason players have such an unhealthy mindset and playstyle for this game is because DE blatantly encouraged it with how they've skewered their own dream for the last two years into something blatantly money grubbing (in various aspects that poison the whole) 

 

If DE truly wants to make something extraordinary they're going to need to break these player's backs and get them to realize there can be more to Warframe than samey runs for next shiniest thing this month. 

 

DE cares about the wrong aspects of the community at times, from the way they handle the issues that spring up with us, as unruly as we are. 

 

It's not about the quantity DE, it's the quality. You read this so much because it's the hard truth!   What are all the prime parts worth when it's just going to be wasted and used as a trophy item while we speed through or camp your game because all you've shown us is that there's nothing to Warframe but rewards? 

 

 

-snip-

 

Man, you really need a legit outline for this stuff. Great ideas, but even with better spacing it's a monster to actually read - had to skim it, too sleepy. But I like the gist of what I'm seeing right now. So I'm just going to have to ask you to clarify some stuff.

 

-snip-

 

 

I apologize for poor formatting, I'm really not used to making large posts and I guess it shows. I'll try giving it some more attention later when I've the time, but it isn't too big a priority right now since the only people who give good feedback here are the ones who have taken the time to read it and grasp my intentions. 

 

Those who haven't even really bothered, well.. You've seen as such. 

 

 

As for your questions, the best I can say that concisely answers what you asked is; 

 

Yes. 

 

No more bullet sponges, no more cheap knockdown tactics. We have our fodder enemies and we could even lob the Grineer Heavies and Infested Ancients into that pack of fodder goons, Nullifiers take too much away from the experience in my opinion. 

 

The kind of enemies we'd be having here ought to be new, fresh designs with different attacks that don't rely on stunlocks and total power removal. 

 

They won't die to cheese or sheer force, they die to quick thinking and aren't impossible to take down on your own. A solo player perhaps wouldn't face nearly as many Squad Sub-Bosses like I typed about in my OP, but there'd be Sub-Boss spawns to account for it. 

 

You'd be using your powers in different orders as a solo player, and using less powers but more of your team in a cooperative setting, if that makes sense. 

 

 

The teamplay would be there to enrich the experience, not to make Soloing obselete. 

 

 

 

-MISSING THE POINT- 

 

 

Respectfully I'm going to cease replies to you for a while in this thread, you continue to attack and argue about points you're missing by a mile, I've done my best to point you in the direction of where my intent lies but you haven't seemed to grasp it.  I wish you well, but I'm giving you a break. 

 

 

 

Aaaaand then again...

Unfortunately this is how it is. Most people don't care. They wouldn't even read the OP. They do play a different game. A game that needs changes. 

 

 

 

A lot of this community are flat out determined to hold on to bad designs and mechanics simply because they seem to fear it'll impact their likelyhood of success or somehow it will cheapen their lengthy grind.

 

The general outlook of most of the more vocal community here is: 

 

IF I CAN'T HAVE IT NO ONE CAN. IF I HAD TO DO ALL OF THIS THEN SO SHOULD EVERYONE ELSE. 

 

They don't actually want progress it seems, the players so desperately clinging to dated designs and bad mechanics simply want others to endure what they had to, to keep things reward driven so they remain justified in their endeavors for shallower content. 

 

Piping on about how the game is meant to be played as a slog, DE does nothing wrong and their designs are flawless (until the Void has the potential to go away) or tools to cheapen the shallow experience further (coptering) are said to be getting tossed out the window. 

 

 

I'm having glimmers of faith in DE the more they show with their ideas lately. The dynamic approach to the new J3, Kubrow reworks incoming, Excalibur's very well thought out buff (despite Radial Javelin not being touched *grumble* *grumble* ) and the increasingly viable frame designs we've been getting (post-Limbo) but I fear the vocal parts of the community are what keep DE back from a lot of things. 

 

 

I feel that if DE focuses on adding more depth to their game now and making it more about playing it and not grinding it for 'gold'  then we have a much healthier, fleshed out game on our horizons as DE continue to learn from their mistakes and reclaim the dream they had for Warframe. 

 

It'll be better for it if that day comes, but we'll have to see. 

[Umb231]

The thought behind this idea is to reward Tenno around their teamplay and working together, or at least getting good results in the act of engaging the enemy, rather than a reward system based off mindless attrition. 

 

So... the Saryn and the Trinity were playing as a team, and you're complaining because they didn't do what you wanted them to do when you wouldn't even tell them what you wanted... This is why team synergies is never going to work well. You're demanding they do what you want and can't possibly imagine cooperating with what they want.

 

People keep demanding "team synergies" but then hate it when groups do things like Excalibur spamming his (previous) ult while Trinity's feeding energy. They can't stand the idea of Mesa killing everything while GMag is keeping energy going. You don't want "better" game play, you want your way to be the only way, and thousands of people demanding their way be the only way will always make sure no one has any fun.

 

In the end it's a game. If you're not having fun with the people you're playing it with, don't play with those people and find some like minded individuals or groups. If the idea that anyone playing a way that's not your way keeps you angry all the time, then maybe it's time to stop playing the game for a while (or, ya know, take some time to work through your repressed anger issues).

[FelisImpurrator]

*snip*

"Team synergy" does not mean "half the squad annihilates the map while the other half watches silently". A portable energy dispenser is not a teammate to me; that is a gear item. Or a bloody glorified sentinel, for all the interaction it actually involves.

 

"you want your way to be the only way" - well, isn't that what you're doing when you want Saryn nuking or Excal nuking or Mesa/Gmag nuking to dominate the playing field so completely that Greedy Pull is the single most used ability in the game and 90% of recruiting runs the same map with the same team comp? Nice job putting words in the OP's mouth, though. I do so love strawmen. So flammable.

 

Also, if you get the brilliant idea to try more ad hominem "anger issues" attacks - I'm so chill I had to turn my AC off to keep from freezing. This is just a very in-depth hobby for me.

[Umb231]

"Team synergy" does not mean "half the squad annihilates the map while the other half watches silently". A portable energy dispenser is not a teammate to me; that is a gear item. Or a bloody glorified sentinel, for all the interaction it actually involves.

 

"you want your way to be the only way" - well, isn't that what you're doing when you want Saryn nuking or Excal nuking or Mesa/Gmag nuking to dominate the playing field so completely that Greedy Pull is the single most used ability in the game and 90% of recruiting runs the same map with the same team comp? Nice job putting words in the OP's mouth, though. I do so love strawmen. So flammable.

 

Also, if you get the brilliant idea to try more ad hominem "anger issues" attacks - I'm so chill I had to turn my AC off to keep from freezing. This is just a very in-depth hobby for me.

 

He very specifically said he spend 20 minutes stewing with a group he didn't like, instead of mentioning he didn't like their play style. That's his fault, not theirs.  It wouldn't be one player annihilating everything if he were helping with the killing, but he wanted to play nice and slow. That's his fault for not communicating his wishes with them, not theirs for playing their way with no idea he was stewing. Ok, you're clearly right, it may not be anger issues, but it is clearly control issues.

There's more player jobs than doing damage. In a lot of RPGs a player takes the role of healer and does little if any damage. Even in Warframe a number of frames modify the damage of their allies instead of doing direct damage primarily (Banshee's sonar, Nova's MPrime, Mesa's Shooting Gallery, Rhino's Roar). And that's not even getting into all the CC in the game. It's called being in a support role. Don't patronize that role by saying they can or should be replaced by items.

[Umb231]

"you want your way to be the only way" - well, isn't that what you're doing when you want Saryn nuking or Excal nuking or Mesa/Gmag nuking to dominate the playing field so completely that Greedy Pull is the single most used ability in the game and 90% of recruiting runs the same map with the same team comp? Nice job putting words in the OP's mouth, though. I do so love strawmen. So flammable.

 

And just to make certain, you do recognize that instant abilities with low energy use will be spammed more than any of the abilities that have duration that can't be overwritten, right? GP may be used the most atm, but that's in large part because it needs to be used continuously, a lot like Desecrate, which I assume was pretty high up there too. When you take a look at all the duration abilities that people are probably keeping up constantly with duration mods, and abilities that continue to be on until you turn them off, no wonder an instant use, low cost, wide area of effect ability with utility is used a lot.

[Eyeless]

He very specifically said he spend 20 minutes stewing with a group he didn't like, instead of mentioning he didn't like their play style. -snip-

 

 

You're getting way to hung up on my opening and the opinion I provided with it to get the ball rolling with the rest of my post, and are thus derailing the main idea of the topic presented. If you have that much of an issue that I didn't appreciate two people playing the game for me, PM me privately and we can discuss things civilly there or just agree to disagree. 

 

Rather than put words in my mouth and say I have this or that in terms of emotional baggage, get over an opening paragraph and if nothing else criticize the parts of the thread that actually matter, the idea itself.

 

But you seem to only be here to argue, so if your next reply is still on this topic you and others have gone out of their way to drag on unnecessarily and miss the key point I'm trying to make, I'm not replying to you in this thread. 

 

 

I agree, there is still team work present in this game, I stated that in the OP and even said in other replies that the starting paragraph was not the point of the thread. 

 

If this is really all you're going to discuss then I'd request we take the argument elsewhere so we can move on to a more constructive conversation, this really doesn't need to drag on. 

[FelisImpurrator]

It wouldn't be one player annihilating everything if he were helping with the killing, but he wanted to play nice and slow.

How do you "help with the killing" when Saryn erases every red dot on the map every few seconds, with infinite energy? Do tell me.

 

And I see you have yet to drop the meaningless personal insults. Throwing accusations at the OP only lessens the impact of your posts.

 

I am well aware that warframes play different roles. I tend to main CC and utility frames, after all. But a support role played correctly is far more diverse and active than, say, a Greedy Mag standing in one spot and doing NOTHING but pulling energy, or a Trinity built solely to provide the nuke with more nuke fuel. THAT is the effect I can simply replicate by deactivating my Peacemaker, hitting the hotkey for an energy pad three times over, and reentering the ability. Mag is not a large Carrier, any more than Trinity is a large combined Health, Shield, and Energy Restore on legs. It is the people who reduce those warframes to those narrow roles that are the problem.

[Lord-KEK]

They did what they did for the good of the game

The game, do you know what the game is?

Is the thousand patches and updates we see

A story we agree to tell each other over and over till we forget that its a lie

But what do we have left once we abandon the lie? Grind

A gaping pit waiting to swallows all

Grind isn't a pit, grind is a ladder

Many who try to climb fail and never get to try again

The fall breaks them

And some are given the chance to grind but they refuse

They cling to the trade, or clans, or fun, illusions...

Only the grind is real

 

The climb is all there is.

[SairentoKorosu]

I applaud you Sir for putting into plain words how i've felt Warframes core should be, long post yes but well worth the read. I would love if this even a fraction of this was implimented. (If done well) Co-operative gameplay would be great to see but i do understand that it would be a massive undertaking for DE to impliment these changes.

 

On a side note;

I remeber the old times when missions had diverse gameplay, going into an exterminate and it changes to a deception or a spy. There are big oppotunitys for this game to expand like you have explained as well as others like the mission changes it had in the past.

 

Though the old mission changes may have been removed to reduce mission length, it could have been fixed with an option to extract OR continue with the new objective for extra rewards, for whatever reason i belive it is gone.

 

Back on topic;

The Tenno co-op combos for mini-boss groups or enemys would be great, it would be amazing to come across a random Mini-boss (Raptor, Jugganaught, new mobs etc..) encounter and have the squad work together to quickly dispach it. They have plenty of assets they can use for mini-bosses, even the assasin groups could be worked in like that rather than farming for a Mark then waiting 20 missions to get attacked randomly.

 

Again well thought out ideas =3

Honor to Tenno Hastur609

[rockscl]

They did what they did for the good of the game

The game, do you know what the game is?

Is the thousand patches and updates we see

A story we agree to tell each other over and over till we forget that its a lie

But what do we have left once we abandon the lie? Grind

A gaping pit waiting to swallows all

Grind isn't a pit, grind is a ladder

Many who try to climb fail and never get to try again

The fall breaks them

And some are given the chance to grind but they refuse

They cling to the trade, or clans, or fun, illusions...

Only the grind is real

 

The climb is all there is.

[(PSN)WiiConquered]

That is the way DE wants it played and they said it on February 8th 2013 on youtube, before the March 21 2013 Trailer on youtube:

 

The Core of Warframe is supposed to be 4 Tenno Devastate Massive Army.  Warframe is supposed to have Massive Armies and 4 Tenno are supposed to Devastate them, i.e. "doubling up on the latest wombo-combo strategy so you can kill", so that 4 Tenno can kill a lot of enemy, i.e. Devastate Massive Army

You understand that reposting this again and again has not, in any way, countered anyone else's points nor explained why the game is better off with its current design?

You understand that just because "4 Tenno devastate massive army [with no teamwork, no skill, no engagement, and heaps on heaps of cheese]" technically fills the requirement of "4 Tenno devastate massive army" doesn't mean it's the only or optimal way of doing so?

You understand there's a range between Dynasty Warriors and Dark Souls? And that Interception spawns instantly, survival spawns more than it has since at least U10, and neither of those have made the game more interactive thanks to the way we the players work?

You understand that the amount of enemy cheese used to counteract our own ends up directly contradicting both the actual dev's vision and your interpretation of it?

You understand that reposting this and then assigning a meaning to it doesn't change its actual meaning?

[R34LM]

I honestly had to stop reading a 1/4 of the way through because I saw it leave out solo play. Sure, shame on me for soloing a team game, but, really, that's my playstyle.

 

From what I did read, though, you make very valid points and provide good solutions.

Edited July 3, 2015 by R34LM

[Eyeless]

I honestly had to stop reading a 1/4 of the way through because I saw it leave out solo play. Sure, shame on me for soloing a team game, but, really, that's my playstyle.

 

From what I did read, though, you make very valid points and provide good solutions.

 

1/4th of the way isn't where I addressed solo play, I did address solo play and that is why I kindly request everyone actually reads the op to it's fullest. 

 

But thank you for your support. 

Edited July 3, 2015 by Hastur609

[FelisImpurrator]

*solid wrecking*

Man, I just have to point out - this game is currently cheesier than Dynasty Warriors. DW doesn't have fifty meter radial nukes you can cast ten times in a row, it just has melee with the range of Orthos Prime and the damage of fully modded Boltor Prime.

I honestly had to stop reading a 1/4 of the way through because I saw it leave out solo play. Sure, shame on me for soloing a team game, but, really, that's my playstyle.

 

From what I did read, though, you make very valid points and provide good solutions.

I was concerned with that too - which is why I asked, and it turns out there's actually a lot more put into addressing the solo issue than most other threads on this subject. Just a bit hard to read, is all.

[TheBrsrkr]

Every time I come to this thread to try to leave a comment, there's always a blatant straw man and Felis just burning it all the time. What's is there left to say? +1 OP?

[ThePresident777]

The fact of the matter is that the OP is conflicting and poorly written, as I've described previously in this thread.  It's no strawman, derail, etc. to point out the OP's poor wording and conflicts or to point out DE's own words on how they want the game to be played:

Warframe: Developer Q&A , Answer to Question 4:

The core is the 4 guys against a massive army.  And, generally speaking, they are devastating. The core is not something like in Gears of War where the one on one is something a bit more balanced.  One Space Ninja against a whole ship of Grineer is the idea.  But, that needs to be balanced by boss battles, and by like desperate scenarios.  But, generally speaking, the whole idea of it, even an old ninja (right?) is that the untrained militia get devastated by a single one.

 

 

If people don't like how DE wants the game to be played, they are free to say so.  But, if they are going to misquote people or deny what DE has publicly said then there is no discussion to be had and the thread is a verbal circus.

Edited July 3, 2015 by ThePresident777

[MagPrime]

Well done OP!

 

I'm going back and re-reading parts, there is a lot to take in, but so far I agree 100%

 

Warframe is an amazing game, even in the state its in.  Not optimal for veterans, but still.  I'd like to see the majority of your suggested changes implemented, and soon!  

 

Every time I come to this thread to try to leave a comment, there's always a blatant straw man and Felis just burning it all the time. What's is there left to say? +1 OP?

Same.

[FelisImpurrator]

The fact of the matter is that the OP is conflicting and poorly written, as I've described previously in this thread.  It's no strawman, derail, etc. to point out the OP's poor wording and conflicts or to point out DE's own words on how they want the game to be played:

 

If people don't like how DE wants the game to be played, they are free to say so.  But, if they are going to misquote people or deny what DE has publicly said then there is no discussion to be had and the thread is a verbal circus.

Are you- are you even reading a single word of my posts?

 

Nice job digging up that quotation - at least we finally have a source on it. But DE has also stated that - for example - Mesa/Gpull camping is not the point of the game at all. You have repeatedly, consistently failed to address this simple fact: Mass camping and mass rushing are not the point of the game. They are by no means intended behavior. DE would not be constantly attempting to curb it if it were intended.

 

The OP also has nothing to do with making everyone "equal" in the sense that it takes serious teamwork to beat one squad of Lancers, and everything about providing more of these desperate scenarios and boss battles that have been so helpfully quoted - instead of cheap, no-sell units like Nullifiers and Twenty Ancient Parties. We are still meant to be powerful. We are not meant to flip-flop between completely unchallenged and lying on the ground from a conga line of brutal one-shots.

 

I also asked you a very simple question you seem to have blatantly missed or ignored, so here, for your benefit, I'm going to post it again.

What part of "two frames drop in, one of them nukes everyone before the other half of the squad even sees a single spawn" is 4 Tenno Devastate Massive Army? That sounds more like One Tenno Devastates Massive Army While Everyone Else Watches With Popcorn. And occasionally feeds the One Tenno some more glowing blue energy popcorn balls so that Tenno can keep launching more nukes than the backstory of Fallout had.

Why not try to actually read the post before replying? I'll let you try again.

[MagPrime]

The fact of the matter is that the OP is conflicting and poorly written, as I've described previously in this thread.  It's no strawman, derail, etc. to point out the OP's poor wording and conflicts or to point out DE's own words on how they want the game to be played:

 

 

If people don't like how DE wants the game to be played, they are free to say so.  But, if they are going to misquote people or deny what DE has publicly said then there is no discussion to be had and the thread is a verbal circus.

You're missing the point.

 

Right now, it only takes 1 Tenno to wipe out a massive army, not 4.  If it really did require 4 Tenno, then they would have to work together to achieve destruction on that scale.  Again, right now, it only requires 1 Tenno with a decently stocked gear wheel.  

 

No matter how many times you wave that quote around, it still doesn't support your point.  DE has stated and made changes to head in the direction of 4 Tenno Vs. Massive Army, but right now, it's 1 Tenno v. Massive Army.

[rockscl]

The fact of the matter is that the OP is conflicting and poorly written, as I've described previously in this thread.  It's no strawman, derail, etc. to point out the OP's poor wording and conflicts or to point out DE's own words on how they want the game to be played:

 

 

If people don't like how DE wants the game to be played, they are free to say so.  But, if they are going to misquote people or deny what DE has publicly said then there is no discussion to be had and the thread is a verbal circus.

 

de has changed their points of views, so trying to make a law from their statements form 2 years ago is like insisting in that the earth is not spheric, the op is not conflicting, is not poorly written, btw the OP has already stated that he will ignore you, take some advice from that if you want

Edited July 3, 2015 by rockscl

[Lukap99]

Hell yes for rewarding fun and varied way to get through levels.

[(PSN)DanteVincent]

You got my upvote sir, but i suggest you to stop dreaming, it hurts after a while.

 

#emofeelings

 

#isitstill2006?

[(PSN)DanteVincent]

They did what they did for the good of the game

The game, do you know what the game is?

Is the thousand patches and updates we see

A story we agree to tell each other over and over till we forget that its a lie

But what do we have left once we abandon the lie? Grind

A gaping pit waiting to swallows all

Grind isn't a pit, grind is a ladder

Many who try to climb fail and never get to try again

The fall breaks them

And some are given the chance to grind but they refuse

They cling to the trade, or clans, or fun, illusions...

Only the grind is real

 

The climb is all there is.

GoT reference, from its most interesting character also, you earned my upvote.