How To Make Sniper Rifels Usefull

[Nakimato]

I like to start a Discussion about how to make Sniper Rifels usefull.

So feel free to discus and bring in your own ideas.

 

For a bit more background about the theme read the spoiler.

 

With the latest Prime Acces we got a Vectis Prime

(I would like to have only one shot with her but maybe 5% more crit but thats not the stuff i wanna talk over now)

 

Anyway the Vectis Prime deals a good amount of dmg.

Other Sniper Rifels like the Lanka/Vulkar/Snipetron/Vectis would also deal a good amount of dmg.

Even Bows would deal massive dmg.

 

But still even if they deal good dmg why does no one play with them?

Right! About 90% of the time there are to many enemy's that you can use a low fire rate weapon / a weapon with a small magazine.

 

Or when playing Void 1 Nullifier that shields a Bombard (which can shoot 5 missels in about 2 sec) is impossible to kill because nullifiers shields don't shrink per dmg they shrink per hit (so use a weapon with a good fire rate)

 

So my idea how to make Sniper Rifels usefull to have at least one member in your group equipped with a Sniper Rifle. (in T3/T4 or Corpus maps)

Let the Sniper Rifels be the only weapons (maybe bows to but i'm not a fan of this) that can shoot through a nullifier field, but only if the nullfield enemy is targeted.

 

So the meaning is with a Sniper Rifle you can kill a Nullifier with a blank shot but you cannot kill enemys within the nullfield.

 

I'm happy to hear your ideas or discuss my idea.

If a Moderator think this belongs to feedback feel free to move it.

 

[ONiMETSU_Z]

This would go in feedback

 

Anyway, I really like this idea

[Dhrekr]

You know what, when I opened this thread I immediately thought "yatta yatta this is going to be the usual boring thing".

 

It is actually an interesting idea. Sure, you aren't making sniper rifles "useful", you are merely making them useful "in a specific case" (T3-T4 Void and certain Corpus missions). For all other missions snipers would still be immensely lackluster.

 

However, why not. Anything that makes us shoot the damn bubblemongers faster is ok in my book.

[ShioriShi]

I would like to see a mod for snipers, lets call it "Shied Penetrator", adds 20/40/60/80/100% chance to bypass bubbles. This would make snipers a very good back up gun to deal with Nullifiers and Eximus, it would not be OP as it would still have lower fire rate then other guns and still require you to aim to deal with em, rather then just spraying the entire area with bullets.

[(PSN)KushJones512]

I feel like puncture damage should automatically go through enemies. If that were the case I could remove shred, add a utility mod. Like you said other weapons are just faster vs nully shield, I gotta swap weapons every time I see one. Or melee, but running up on a high level nully can be dangerous random bombard one shotting you, or nully himself etc..

[Cloud]

I like to start a Discussion about how to make Sniper Rifels usefull.

So feel free to discus and bring in your own ideas.

 

For a bit more background about the theme read the spoiler.

 

With the latest Prime Acces we got a Vectis Prime

(I would like to have only one shot with her but maybe 5% more crit but thats not the stuff i wanna talk over now)

 

Anyway the Vectis Prime deals a good amount of dmg.

Other Sniper Rifels like the Lanka/Vulkar/Snipetron/Vectis would also deal a good amount of dmg.

Even Bows would deal massive dmg.

 

But still even if they deal good dmg why does no one play with them?

Right! About 90% of the time there are to many enemy's that you can use a low fire rate weapon / a weapon with a small magazine.

 

Or when playing Void 1 Nullifier that shields a Bombard (which can shoot 5 missels in about 2 sec) is impossible to kill because nullifiers shields don't shrink per dmg they shrink per hit (so use a weapon with a good fire rate)

 

So my idea how to make Sniper Rifels usefull to have at least one member in your group equipped with a Sniper Rifle. (in T3/T4 or Corpus maps)

Let the Sniper Rifels be the only weapons (maybe bows to but i'm not a fan of this) that can shoot through a nullifier field, but only if the nullfield enemy is targeted.

 

So the meaning is with a Sniper Rifle you can kill a Nullifier with a blank shot but you cannot kill enemys within the nullfield.

 

I'm happy to hear your ideas or discuss my idea.

If a Moderator think this belongs to feedback feel free to move it.

I extremely like ur idea. +1

[taiiat]

being able to ignore Nullifier Shields with the direct Weapons Players are already using defeats the purpose of their existence.

the effectiveness of AoE is even questionably effective.

Nullifiers impeding Weapons with a RoF of 2 or lower less can be achieved in other ways that don't defeat the purpose of them.

from a previous thread:

Marksmanship Weapons with a RoF of 2.0 or lower are hampered much more than ones above that are.

categories of Weapon Archetypes against Nullifier Shields can address this. classify them by base RoF. ones that shoot extraordinarily slowly, will have a higher Damage allowance against a Nullifier Shield than ones that shoot extraordinarily quickly.

and a separate Category for each Shotguns and Continuous Weapons.

to quote the formula for how the Shield works as a refresher:

Every frame a sample is taken of damage done to the Nullifier Shield.

Step 1) If the amount of damage is less than 100, it is set to 100. If the amount of damage is greater than 400, it is set to 400.

Step 2) Divide that amount by 100 and multiply the default shrink rate (6% of max size for Corpus, 4% of max size for Corrupted) by that value.

If you're keen on the calculations and know a thing or two about math, click the spoiler for the real 'under-the-hood':

Example 1 - You hit it with a Braton and do 18 damage.  Step 1 indicates anything less than 100 is set to 100, so we perform that. Then, divide that value by 100 == 1.0. Then, we multiply the default shrink rate by that value. So for a Corpus Nullifier its 6%, which equates to:

0.06 * 1.0 = 0.06. We then shrink the shield by that amount.

Example 2 -  You hit it with something stronger, doing 150 damage. 150/100 = 1.5 * 0.06 = 0.09 == shrink the shield by 9% of the max size.

Example 3 - You hit the shield for 1000 damage. That's greater than 400, so I set it to 400. 400/100 = 4.0 * 0.06 = 0.24. So the shield is shrunk by 24%

And those values are based on the current size of the shield, not always max size. So the shield starts at a 1.5x scale, and if the first shot is multiplied by 4x to drop it by 24%, it will now decrease to 1.15x scale. The next shot will decrease it to a scale that is 24% less than 1.15, which is around 0.87.

So there are some diminishing returns there as the shield is damaged.

Another thing to consider - the shield responds to damage per frame. So if you shoot it with a weapon like the Hek that hits it with multiple pellets in a single frame, it's the cumulative damage of those shots that is considered. So hitting it with 3 pellets at once, each doing 1000 damage really isn't any different than hitting it once for 1000 damage. Since in both cases, that damage is normalized down to the max multiplier of 4x.

However, there would be an impact if you are using a weaker weapon that does less than 400 per pellet! 

what we should end up with, IMO, is a moderate RoF Category, a high RoF Category, a low RoF Category, a Continuous Category, and the Shotgun Category.

- the high RoF Category would have the same Damage per Frame cap of 400 as we have now. (16% current size reduction)

- the moderate RoF Category would bump that to 500-550. (20-22% current size reduction)

- the low RoF Category would bump that to 1700-1800. (68-72% current size reduction) possibly 1875, which would be 75% current size reduction.

still fond of the idea of the Nullifier Shield being hit by one of these Weapons causing a 0dmg Electric Status on the Nullifier Crewman. an 'overload' to the Shield, if you will, causing backlash on the Nullifier Crewman. doesn't cause the Shield to falter, just stuns the Crewman.

- the Continuous Category due to how they apply Damage to Inanimate Objects, should sample 50ms segments or so rather than per Frame, and bump the Damage Threshold up to ~600. (24% current size reduction)

- the Shotgun Category... sigh. i'm not as sure what to do here. like Precision Weapons, almost all of the Damage per Shot is being ignored. to start, bump the Damage Threshold up to ~1250. (50% current size reduction)

then toy with some side additions. 0dmg Impact Status? Stagger? 0dmg Electric Status? presumably these would only apply if you were close enough to the Shield so that Damage Falloff hadn't started yet.

Edited July 20, 2015 by taiiat

[Ryme]

I think innate punchthrough or a "thunderbolt" type mod would have to be introduced to make them viable for general use. Otherwise, they would only be viable on niche game modes that involved stealth and generally not fighting hoards of enemies. It's really the ammo economy that holds it back, especially when other weapons with better ammo economy fulfill the "sniping" role just as well or even better than a sniper rifle.

 

A niche application like "anti-nullifier" wouldn't change the fact that it would still be a niche weapon, and not justify bringing such a weapon against the other two (soon to be three) other factions.

[VCaptiion]

It's garbage as long as Nullifiers exists, same does bows and Opticor.

A quick-fix mod won't make it better.

 

Thanks to the toxic community, your "challenge" is finally here.

It's more like DE is making fun of you by releasing garbage weapons, and you still take the harassment as compliment.

DE takes forever for buffing players but 3 seconds for enemies buff.

Edited July 20, 2015 by VCaptiion

[(PSN)NachoZissou]

Bigger magazine sizes and ammo capacity, innate punch through of at least two metres, more damage and crit chance through the roof and snipers might actually be more viable than just being an obscure niche weapon.

[Eldnacpeek]

Innate punchthrough and Nullifier bubble penetration, I'm all for 'em.

Edited July 20, 2015 by LazerSkink

[Lewgis]

I would like to see snipers get at least 4.5m or more innate punch through and similar to OPs idea have nullifier bubbles count as something like 4.4m of wall so a sniper shot will penetrate but a rifle modded with shred and metal auger wont stand a chance of piercing 

 

and maybe have a slight crit damage buff 

[-XeqtR]

The claim that "snipers aren't useful" and that "no one plays with them" is a bit speculative. You may feel that snipers aren't useful against many enemies at once, but it highly depends on what mission you're doing. It also has to do with a matter of opinion. I know many people, including myself, that use snipers for long endgame endless missions (where sniper's high damage is welcomed with open arms against high level units).

 

I also think to add such an easy counter to the nullifier unit would just lower the already low skill-cap of the game.

[Sovamorne]

Snipers rifles are in the same niche that all other weapons are in, which is not the way to make them useful and effective. Giving them their own niche (penetrating eximus and nullifier shields) among other things would be the way to go, making them effective at what they do in the same way elemental and physical damage bonuses have their advantages.

[Nakimato]

The claim that "snipers aren't useful" and that "no one plays with them" is a bit speculative.

 

Sorry to be so speculative but in over 78 days Dungeon time I met no one that played Sniper Rifles with the words

"I like play with a Sniper it is so cool and usefull" or "I main Snipers because they deal so much dmg"

 

The only thing i get to hear all the time is stuff like "Good i'm nearly through with level this thing" or "Man i should have took a good weapon with me but i have to level this one"

 

I know many people, including myself, that use snipers for long endgame endless missions (where sniper's high damage is welcomed with open arms against high level units).

 

Good for you to know many people including yourself that actually uses Snipers, but in long endless endgame missions so you refere actually to T4 Key's because thats about the "hardest" endgame content if we don't count the raid.

 

So you wanna tell me that a Sniper Rifle in the endgame (i personally refering to T4 Survival / Defense / interception) is more usefull than a let's say Boltor Prime or even a Stug that outdmg a sniper and is on top more usefull against the masses of enemy's that appear in every "endgame mission type"

Spoiler with Builds for the mentioned weapons.

Boltor P build http://goo.gl/2Hr6Xy

Vectis P Build http://goo.gl/JHq3UU

Stug http://goo.gl/0glQvO

 

I don't wanna flame at you but i simply cannot imagine it that you actually wrote something like that and being serious.

 

And:

I also think to add such an easy counter to the nullifier unit would just lower the already low skill-cap of the game.

 

As i wrote you can only kill a Nullifier with a Blank Shot and enemy's inside the nullfield cannot be targeted.

So if i remember yesterday's round 60 in T3 Defense correct, there where 8 Nullifier that stacked their fields over themselfs with about 5 Bombards that moved like they are glued together = 0% chance to have a chance with a Sniper or a low fire rate weapon.

Nullfield inside nullfield still = save nullfield

 

 

 

I would like to see snipers get at least 4.5m or more innate punch through and similar to OPs idea have nullifier bubbles count as something like 4.4m of wall so a sniper shot will penetrate but a rifle modded with shred and metal auger wont stand a chance of piercing 

 

and maybe have a slight crit damage buff

Thats a good point with the initiall punch through and the Idea that nullifier fields cound as sort of wall, but in your version you could kill other enemys than the nulli even inside of the nullfield and it would have no additional effect if 2 or more nullfields stand close to each other because wall is wall.

[-XeqtR]

Sorry to be so speculative but in over 78 days Dungeon time I met no one that played Sniper Rifles with the words

"I like play with a Sniper it is so cool and usefull" or "I main Snipers because they deal so much dmg"

 

The only thing i get to hear all the time is stuff like "Good i'm nearly through with level this thing" or "Man i should have took a good weapon with me but i have to level this one"

 

 

Good for you to know many people including yourself that actually uses Snipers, but in long endless endgame missions so you refere actually to T4 Key's because thats about the "hardest" endgame content if we don't count the raid.

 

So you wanna tell me that a Sniper Rifle in the endgame (i personally refering to T4 Survival / Defense / interception) is more usefull than a let's say Boltor Prime or even a Stug that outdmg a sniper and is on top more usefull against the masses of enemy's that appear in every "endgame mission type"

I don't wanna flame at you but i simply cannot imagine it that you actually wrote something like that and being serious.

 

Okay so, when you say out damage is that DPS? Or damage per shot. Because there's a big difference depending on the situation. From my experience, level 3000+ enemies take many clips of a firing to kill a single one (with your boltor prime..). Whereas a sniper is just some extra shots. Also, vectis with prime chamber is much higher damage than your stug/boltor idk where you get this info from.

Most of the killing in masses is with frames (mag polarize for instance ). You only need weapons for the remaining units. Also when you say your days of dungeons (this is warframe).. are you referring to random public games? Because I'm referring to people that use Snipers who actually do real end game. T4 is fine, but I would say missions long enough for enemies to get above level 1,000. (Since t4 just starts at a higher level).

[Ajreil]

I would like to see a mod for snipers, lets call it "Shied Penetrator", adds 20/40/60/80/100% chance to bypass bubbles. This would make snipers a very good back up gun to deal with Nullifiers and Eximus, it would not be OP as it would still have lower fire rate then other guns and still require you to aim to deal with em, rather then just spraying the entire area with bullets.

Snipers already require a lot of skill to use, and even when used properly they aren't exactly OP. If they were, we wouldn't be trying so hard to get them buffed. Also, making us give up a mod slot just makes us choose between two different kinds of lackluster, one where they fail against nullifier bubbles and another with one less damage mod to work with.

Edited July 24, 2015 by Ajreil