Camping -- How To Get Players To Stop Being Cub Scouts And Go Be Space Ninjas

[(PSN)DesecratedFlame]

Then just stay around for 40-60 mins instead of 2 hours and have fun doing something else with the time.

People will stop sticking around for 2 hours on one key when keys stop being one time use.

[Fifield]

People will stop sticking around for 2 hours on one key when keys stop being one time use.

 

They also will if it's impossible to stick around 2 hours...

[Dillon_J]

My suggestion -

   Make all dead end rooms have a door.  Players can not go into this door. there is a impenetrable shield over this door.  enemies spawn behind this door.  Enemies can hurt players from behind this door but players cant hurt them until the enemies pass through the door.  This includes powers.  RIP camping for a lot of spots. Not all but a lot.

[(PSN)DesecratedFlame]

My suggestion -

   Make all dead end rooms have a door.  Players can not go into this door. there is a impenetrable shield over this door.  enemies spawn behind this door.  Enemies can hurt players from behind this door but players cant hurt them until the enemies pass through the door.  This includes powers.  RIP camping for a lot of spots. Not all but a lot.

That's a terrible idea.  People will just find other places to camp.  I know where I camp survival is a room with several entrances anyway.

[Dillon_J]

That's a terrible idea.  People will just find other places to camp.  I know where I camp survival is a room with several entrances anyway.

 

 

 

 Not all but a lot.

READ ...

[(PSN)DesecratedFlame]

READ ...

I did. It's still a terrible idea. You would be punishing non-campers for nothing. Campers won't even miss a step.

[Dillon_J]

I did. It's still a terrible idea. You would be punishing non-campers for nothing. Campers won't even miss a step.

go ahead and explain how that punishes non campers.

[BlackCoMerc]

The best way to get players to stop camping, is to make Non-Endless missions more rewarding. 

 

I love running Sabotage and Exterminate missions. But I rarely do so, except to level low ranked frames. The reason? Lack of rewards. You just dont get anything from them. If you want rewards, you're basically forced to run babysitting missions - Coffins, Extractors, Oxygen tanks - over and over again. 

 

Its time to make being a space ninja more rewarding then being a Camper. No amount of nerfing camping abilities will work. You have to - HAVE TO - work with, and not against, human psychology. Make the Non-Endless missions more rewarding or make endless variants of them that are more rewarding. You must - MUST - provide incentive for players to do something else.

[Marthrym]

Then just stay around for 40-60 mins instead of 2 hours and have fun doing something else with the time.

If keys were guaranteed and not put behind another layer of RNG people wouldn't stay so long.

It's not fun is the issue. Whether you camp or run around pointlessly doesn't change anything. It's just more efficient to stick together and use our brains to create chokepoints and find the best positioning to kill enemies in the safest and most efficient way. It's simple logic here man. You prefer running around, good for you, I have no problem with it. But don't you go tell me how I should play this game, or demand it changes to adapt to what YOU specifically want while screwing with many other players and what THEY want. Thanks.

Edited July 26, 2015 by Marthrym

[Fifield]

But don't you go tell me how I should play this game, or demand it changes to adapt to what YOU specifically want while screwing with many other players and what THEY want. Thanks.

 

You're saying I don't have the right to critique the design of a game and offer better ways to do things?

Edited July 26, 2015 by Fifield

[Marthrym]

You're saying I don't have the right to critique the design of a game and offer better ways to do things?

I'm saying don't tell players who don't play like you to play like you because you say your way is "more fun" to you. Especially if it's not for them. "Your" way isn't better than theirs. That's subjective.

You can though say that you don't like it, like I said I have no problem with you sharing your viewpoint and personal experience, quite the contrary. And sorry for the harsh tone, that was stupid of me.

Edited July 26, 2015 by Marthrym

[Tsukinoki]

Then just stay around for 40-60 mins instead of 2 hours and have fun doing something else with the time.

I disagree with you completely.

I don't camp and am constantly moving and I enjoy playing survival for 1.5 to 2 hours.

Both because its easier on the keys and because its actually a small challenge.

With your first idea that becomes completely impossible.

And all because you don't like long survivals and you think that no one should ever be able to play long survivals.

If you don't like long survivals then don't play them.

But don't try to make it completely impossible for other players who may enjoy it to play that long.

You try playing a T4 survival and see how far you can get picking up absolutely no life support drops and only using the lotus' pods when each pod only provides 45 seconds of oxygen and it quickly takes 2 or more minutes between pod drops.

Just because you don't like playing long survivals doesn't give you the right to try and force that on every other player in the game.

Why should there be just a sudden hard wall of "Nope now it is literally impossible to continue" after 90 minutes?

If a team has the capabilities and desire to go past 90 minutes they should be able to.

Just because you don't like it doesn't mean that everyone else doesn't either.

Edited July 26, 2015 by Tsukinoki

[BoneBreakerx]

sounds like someone dont remember how it was before the LS drop rate buff...

 

back then doing more then 20 min was allmost impossible without a necros desecrating nonstop...

[Fifield]

You try playing a T4 survival and see how far you can get picking up absolutely no life support drops and only using the lotus' pods when each pod only provides 45 seconds of oxygen and it quickly takes 2 or more minutes between pod drops.

 

Or just buff the capsules.  Damn that took almost 2 brain cells to work out.

 

Just because you don't like playing long survivals doesn't give you the right to try and force that on every other player in the game.

 

Already countered the same argument 3x, though it is becoming a minigame to me to find new ones.

Edited July 26, 2015 by Fifield

[Tsukinoki]

Or just buff the capsules.  Damn that took almost 2 brain cells to work out.

Except that if you had more than 2 brain cells you would figure out that in the current mechanics you can't buff the capsules enough to be sustainable.

Even if the capsules restored 100% of the life support that is only 150 seconds of air.

And with each capsule taking longer than the last one to appear that is still unsustainable without enemy life support drops, which you want to be a hard wall of zero drops at 90 minutes.

And you have yet to give a solid reason how it would be better to put in a hard wall like that into survival missions.  All that you've said is that you don't like long survivals which translates into wanting to prevent everyone else from playing long survivals if they want to.

Edited July 26, 2015 by Tsukinoki

[Fifield]

Even if the capsules restored 100% of the life support that is only 150 seconds of air.

Because that can't be changed, right?

 

And you have yet to give a solid reason how it would be better to put in a hard wall like that into survival missions.

 

I don't need to.  It's obvious.  Nobody apart from you bothered to question it.

[(PSN)DesecratedFlame]

 

I don't need to.  It's obvious.  Nobody apart from you bothered to question it.

 

I'm questioning it too.

[THEB00BA]

Wait. Is this thread really still going?

 

Sorry to say buddy, but my clan mates and I camp a lot. I have yet to experience going into a mission where other players who are not in my clan will tell me that I'm playing the game wrong because I want to camp at extraction.

It's efficient, and all the resources are dropped in one place while LS drops are also dropped enough because of the sheer amount of enemies squeezed into one area.

 

I enjoy camping, and I will keep doing it.

If you don't like it, play with your clan mates and stop whining.

[Fifield]

I'm questioning it too.

 

What exactly are you questioning?

@Vengeful, rebutted 3x in 3 different ways, here's a new one:

If there was a warframe which could kill all the enemies on the map and farm their bodies for extra drops, which would all be drawn to that warframe a la GMag, would I be whining if I said that was bad game design?

[(PSN)DesecratedFlame]

What exactly are you questioning?

@Vengeful, rebutted 3x in 3 different ways, here's a new one:

If there was a warframe which could kill all the enemies on the map and farm their bodies for extra drops, which would all be drawn to that warframe a la GMag, would I be whining if I said that was bad game design?

What is a solid reason to put a hard end on endless missions.

[Fifield]

Don't know, why are you asking me?

If you'd bothered reading the comment immediately before the one where you jumped on Tsukinoki's bandwagon, you'd see that's not what I suggested.

[(XBOX)ShapelessHorr0r]

Comment towards the OP's suggestions at the bottom.

"There isn't camping in defense, but there is in survival.

The latter is an issue, but the solution lies with DE, not with players.

1) the void tile set supports camping and duscourages movement

2) current enemy design discourages movement

3) current Warframe design discourages movement

1:

This comes down to spawns and aggro mostly. Certain areas have many spawns in a relatively small area along with plenty of alcoves to set up more easily defended locations. Locations that are literally easier to defend than the defense mission. Camping solves the issue of enemy spawns and aggro. Split up teammates means that enemies may spawn unevenly and at varied locations along with them chasing teammates at random it seems. The life support mechanic alone makes camping a super viable solution. That doesn't even take into account how much easier it is.

2:

Hit scan weapons and bombard missles' tracking capabilities make it a deadly for any frames unless a hard counter is used. In other words, things like the frost globe, Loki invs, or literally killing them before they can do too much damage (i.e. why Mesa is so popular).

3:

How many Warframes have good CC capabilities that are also highly mobile in nature? We now have literally one support character (provides energy and health), but if you don't like her, you're stuck to static energy plates. All defense frames (frost and volt to my knowledge) are inherently static as well. Utility/debuff frames are slightly better in that regard. Loki; nova; and Nyx, for example, can cast-and-forget so to speak but Loki has to recast disarm for each group of enemies (not to mention that a good disarm Loki has to be protected because he can't stay invs for long). Nova's prime takes a while to reach a large area. Nyx's chaos has the same issue as Lok but also has a pseudo cooldown. All three of these frames are much more efficient when the enemies are compacted together. In other words, camping.

The fact if the matter is that plsyers are simply reacting to the rules given to them by DE. "

The first option is completely stupid beyond redemption. Yes that is extremely harsh but hard capping players is dumb especially if they can continue going. The survey is irrelevant as only the top teams could actually go past 40 let alone 60. Those players should be rewarded for that, not forced to extract.

The second option, however, is extremely cool, but you're still having to deal with life support drops which inherently support camping. IMO, the life support mechanic needs to go. After minute 10 and in a good camping spot, it serves very little purpose other than to simply be another pickup.

Edited July 26, 2015 by (XB1)ShapelessHorr0r

[Fifield]

Great comment.  This thread isn't about blaming players though but about helping DE improve the game.

From what I remember, the Frost remake makes him more mobile.  Valkyr can do whatever she wants as long as it's not run into a nullifier shield -- so that's a nice buff for her.  Limbo has several useful turtling skills.  Nyx can distract unlimited enemies long enough for team to get through. Nova can make enemies much less dangerous.  So that's 4 underused frames that might get picked up in the new meta.

[Lost_Cartographer]

If DE's additions to the game seem built to break CC/4 spam and camping, I think it's safe to say DE doesn't intend for players to camp or lock down entire maps for ungodly durations of time.  Thing is, there ARE simple fixes (limit number of entities affected by abilities or even enemies immune to CC's without a nullifier shield, diminishing returns on CC, ability cooldowns, maybe no energy orbs on ability kills, etc.)  

 

I mean, technically there are scenarios where camping would break instantly if they could just happen - a high level grenade will wipe an entire cell easy if it could get an angle.  An ancient standing out of view while other units rush in with it's near invulnerability buff.  Even if players could place down ammo pad after ammo pad and CC indefinitely, they'll run out of air sooner or later unable to kill anything.

 

Really, despite all the cheap-shot enemies in Warframe, DE is actively trying to avoid resorting to cheap shot mechanics to stop camping and taking "endless" inch the extra mile.  Couple this with community that thinks weapons and abilities should be balanced around level 90 enemies or the one hour+ survival range, and it's a hot bed of molten needles for them to dance on.  Eventually they'll either have to drop the hammer or decide they just don't care and keep diluting RNG pools because clearly people are okay running endless modes mindlessly.  Eventually they have to get what they want from a pool of 450 items. 

[Marthrym]

If DE didn't use a double system and then balance everything else around one part or the other of said system, life would be a lot easier for everyone, and this camping (non-)issue wouldn't even exist (yeah right...). They are the ones who made what I think was the first mistake, which they still haven't addressed after years, and the many, many, many threads begging them to.

 

On one end, we have a leveled content, where there is not much stuff to get, mostly regular frames and a few token weapons, and resources that we seldom have any use for, bar a very few exceptions, and these very few exceptions are only farmable reliably in, surprise surprise, endless modes... Not a very smart nor logical design in my humble opinion.

 

Then there is the Void. Where a good chunk of the shinies is once again hidden behind endless modes (and multiple layers of RNGesus...), while the tiers of leveled content mostly mirror the rest of the Sol system content. It's impossible to balance frames, powers and weapons around both these leveled AND infinitely scaling contents. Not the way the devs do it anyway. Not without it being a major pain in the @ss for them, even moreso than it is now.

 

Our gear is either balanced for leveled content, which has a slight tendency to make it suboptimal quite fast in endless modes where enemies turn into huge HP bags with nuke level kind of firepower and Godly aim and reflexes, or around a certain level cap for these endlessly scaling modes, which is usually much higher than what the leveled content offers and turns it into a breeze, a joke even. That's what DE should break down and rebuild first. That's where they should start if they want the game to reach a point where most frames, abilities and weapons can have a spot in the sunlight and not be either utterly useless or ridiculously overpowered depending on where you bring them. Not the other way around. Though from what they have been saying in the last few devstreams, there is hope.

 

If DE keeps taking away what little gameplay options we have from our hands through the use of cheap mechanics and a broken enemy scaling without rebuilding what causes so many balance issues, that lack of a stable base for balance will ultimately break under the weight of all the accumulated content that requires tweaks almost weekly.

At least that's how I see it. That's just my personal opinion, I'm really not trying to force anyone to agree or anything (not that stupid). And I certainly can't tell the devs how to make things better. That's not my place, and obviously it wouldn't appeal to many other players, who certainly have their own opinions and visions of what would be best for the game. So yeah, this post serves absolutely no purpose other than me ranting and criticizing... sorry.^^'

Edited July 26, 2015 by Marthrym