Goodbye Mastery! Nice Knowing Ya! (Not Really...)

[-Kryptyk-]

So I’ve been seeing a lot of posts lately about mastery, what it means, what it should represent, why it’s no longer a viable option anymore, etc etc.  There have been numerous suggestions, and some interesting ideas for sure.  But I haven’t seen anything that fixes this at the core.  We need an overhaul of the core problem, not covering it up by making mastery include leveling with forma.  How can we tell what kind of skill, or mastery, a player has?  Hear me out on this… How about an achievement system that contributes points toward tiers of skill levels?  Here’s how this would work.

 

First off, get rid of the current mastery and replace it with this (oh god, rank 19’s no longer having bragging rights!  Honestly, there’s not much to brag about, calm down.).  The tier system will work like this:

 

There will be ten tiers of achievements, and by default you would start at tier 0 (no accomplishments done yet, right?).  Every tier would have a certain set of achievements within it that are based on different aspects of the game, and all achievements within a tier would need to be completed before moving up to the next one.  Let’s take a look at some examples (keep in mind, these are just ideas and examples):

 

Tier 0 achievements: get 100 kills, get 1000 kills, get 500 melee kills.  Complete all the achievements, you unlock tier 1, which would show in your name in squad lists just like the current mastery level number does (again these are examples, the idea is to start easy and increase in difficulty.)

 

Tier 1 would have its own set of achievements, like level 4 frames to 30, acquire 8 weapons, etc.

 

Tiers 1-5 could be accomplished by yourself or with a team, and tiers 6-10, would have to be done in a team setting to further grow your team-play skills.

 

Tiers 1-4 could just be for getting new gear, leveling (and keeping) items, getting kills, working the trade channel, etc.  They could even be faction-themed (specific tiers would have achievements that are for going against corpus, grineer, infested, and/or corrupted.)

 

Tier 5 achievements would be strictly mobility based.  Wallrunning while shooting, killing enemies while in the air, scaling walls for a certain distance, etc.

 

Now, to get from 5 to 6, you would need to have completed a certain number of missions in a squad, and it would have to be a high number.  This would separate the solo players from those who run in squads.  Nothing against solo’ers, but this is a co-op based game, and if you’re gonna head into a raid, they would need to know that you can function well in a team setting (I see rage coming, God help us all....).

 

Tier 6 would start off the team-based achievements that can only be acquired by having more than one player in a squad that isn’t afk for more than 90 seconds.  Tier 6 can be assault and accuracy-based achievements.

 

Tier 7 can be tactical/support based: ex. Heal so many team mates so many times in one mission, choke point 15 points in a map with Vauban successfully, remove procs on allies with oberon so many times in one mission, Revive so many team mates over a certain time period, etc., snipe a certain amount of undamaged enemies, snipe a certain amount of aiding enemies (ex, ancient healers, eximuses, etc)

 

Tier 8 can be Stealth: use a team of four to complete 5 spy missions without alerting any enemies, headshot so many targets silently, rescue prisoners and get them back to extraction without alerting anyone, etc

 

Tier 9 could be conclave-based (within a team, not free-for-all).

 

Tier 10 would be endurance based.  Make sure your entire team compliments each other as far as loadouts, because here, you’ll have to go for at least 60 minutes in a t4 survival, or 60 waves in a defense, etc

 

When you hit rank 10 and achieve all the accomplishments, you earn the title Master and earn your own sigil, customizable armor set, etc.

 

This “tag” of “tier x” could be placed above players’ names in the esc menu when in a squad.  That way, you have a clear indication of skill that isn’t based on how much you’ve farmed or leveled, but rather by a log of what you’ve been able to accomplish and perform in the game and as a team.

 

Now, you might think, well, what if there are achievements where you have to acquire so many weapons and level them, then the player gets rid of the ones he doesn’t want?  I’m still working on this part as well, but there should be some sort of penalty system for going against an acquired achievement, maybe if it’s a certain amount of points lost which cause an achievement to be lost, and therefore decreasing your tier?  Not entirely sure, but it would also help protect against trolls who claim to have mastery and really don’t.  The goal is to train every tenno to be versatile within the game and to develop skill in as many areas as possible, so when the time comes to join something like a raid, or conclave, or something of the like, all players will know that everyone is capable.

 

How to get to the next tier after completing the achievements? Just like our current mastery tests, except the test you would take would reflect all the achievements you completed within the tier you’re trying to move up from.

 

This would actually make all those challenges in our profiles actually mean something, if they’re included in this.  I think everyone forgot about that part!

 

Also, matchmaking! based on the tier system instead of mastery! 

 

So thoughts? 

Edited July 30, 2015 by PriZms

[Agentcheese]

well one of my thoughts is even though i really like your ideas your conclave one will have problems if it stay's as dead as it is.

 

there has been literally no one playing it lately. meaning you couldn't get the conclave achievement for your idea as there is no one to fight at all.

[FelisImpurrator]

Not a fan, honestly.

 

A lot of them seem to be the usual "grind out x amount of crap", and that's really not a good thing - especially if you can't sell weapons to make room. It's number stacking, but slightly fancier number stacking. We already have that. A lot of the rest like surviving x minutes would just be cheesed with the latest Meta anyway, so they wouldn't exactly raise the skill bar effectively.

 

Anything to do with trade chat is an absolute, unequivocal "no" - it shouldn't be considered a player skill integral to gameplay under any circumstances. Trade is peripheral and should stay that way.

 

Forcing people to work in squads or play conclave isn't great, either, because it railroads people into doing things they might simply not be interested in. The goal of any progression rework should be to enhance player choice, not to hinder it. What about people who can't play in squads because their internet is shot to hell? People who are honestly more comfortable playing solo? Should they be locked out of things like fancy progression cosmetics?

 

Matchmaking based on this would also be a terrible idea. The last thing I want is to be shoved into the inevitable elitists' club that would arise just because I played the game way too much and did as much as I physically could.

[Phatose]

So, you want to trade one arbitrary way of rating players - item collection - for another - achievement collection.

 

All you'd do is change exactly what people are doing to grind mastery.   And you're out of your gourd if you think the player base won't create ways to achieve anything on that list with near zero effort.

Edited July 30, 2015 by Phatose

[Aigloblam]

Both would end up having the same problems, You would just be shifting them around a bit. What happens when someone gets everything possible in your Tier system? Someone could do that in a matter of Days, and be carried by someone else through 90% of it. At least with the system now, it takes a while, and while you are gaining more mastery, you experience the wealth of exploration and social areas of the game.

[(PSN)Silverback73]

It's simply one facet of progress and achievement. You need to level and use a certain amount of frames and weapons with some proficiency. It demonstrates that you have experienced "X" amount of game content.

To make it involved and highly challenging and full of stipulations that are divisive simply won't work.

You get perks along the way, and are rewarded for experiencing game content in ways that don't break competitive balance but are rewarding, nonetheless.

[dexmetomyne]

One major flaw I see with this proposed system is that the game does not currently keep track of most (if not all) of the stats mentioned. Hence everyone would be reset to rank 0. As a player who had grinded my way through the MR, not really willing to go through all of that again to obtain the tier rewards.

 

Another problem is that players would have to do a very specific set of actions to advance from tier to tier. One aspect of Warframe that I love is the freedom to play however you like, and this system restricts players of certain tiers to only play in a fixed manner.

 

If this system were to be implemented to replace MR, eventually Tier-elitism would appear as well. At least MR could be gained easily; new players with low tiers would face an even larger wall to join high level missions.

[Aigloblam]

One major flaw I see with this proposed system is that the game does not currently keep track of most (if not all) of the stats mentioned. Hence everyone would be reset to rank 0. As a player who had grinded my way through the MR, not really willing to go through all of that again to obtain the tier rewards.

 

Another problem is that players would have to do a very specific set of actions to advance from tier to tier. One aspect of Warframe that I love is the freedom to play however you like, and this system restricts players of certain tiers to only play in a fixed manner.

 

If this system were to be implemented to replace MR, eventually Tier-elitism would appear as well. At least MR could be gained easily; new players with low tiers would face an even larger wall to join high level missions.

All Hail Darknight, Speaker of Truth.

 

Its like in a lot of MMOs, some players/guilds won't even speak to you till you have hit a certain level of "Been There, Grinded that out".

 

[DeMonkey]

Yeah, can't see myself being happy about this. I dont like Vauban, his skill set just doesn't suit my playstyle, but I still leveled him and tried to have fun with it. Based on your tier system I wouldn't be able to get past tier 7 without playing a frame I don't enjoy again.

Same for tier 9, I don't enjoy conclave, why should I have to do something I don't enjoy in order to rank up? 

 

I enjoy ranking up weapons, I'd prefer it stayed at that.

[muzashi1963]

MR tests are supposed to be hard, yet achievable, for everyone who takes the time to learn a little of the mechanics and abilities available.

 

Why are they not set up so that each MR test has a specific Frame/Primary/Secondary/Melee/companion. That is "Supplied" for the MR test?

 

That is: Specific Standard kit per MR test. e.g This way people cannot cheese the MR tests.

 

How can a measurable baseline be set in a "test" where you get to choose:

 

 Whichever 3,4,5 or 6 Forma Perma invis/Invulnerable/flying Warframe with all the bells and whistles?

Your  Formaed and potatoed Primary, that can destroy whole hordes in a single shot?

the Same for your Secondary or melee weapon?

 

MR tests are supposed to be hard, yet achievable, for everyone who takes the time to learn a little of the mechanics and abilities available.

 

This achieves 3 things:

 

1. it levels the playing field, no cheesing involved.

2. We get to experience (albeit for the MR test only) weapons and frames we may not own or use.

3. MR tests become valid again.

 

 

I don't think the grind is going anywhere soon. we have to learn to live with it.

The XP gained for all the leveled frames, weapons and companions star-chart completion etc, will still be pertinent.

 

Just an idea.

[-Kryptyk-]

I think our current Mastery is better than a achievement based one like that , with mastery it forces you to rank up weapons/frames but you still learn it's abilities and weapon mechanics and soon you will learn how to mod/play the frame. While doing that you learn game mechinics like how AI usually acts , how to use certain weapons with travel time and punch thou and other stuff.

 

Your system doesn't encourage to constantly get new weapons and frames and that's what you need to know in endgame like raids/T4 S/D. Also the system seems more grindy than our current system like for a player to get to the first tiers it's just basically kill a bunch of stuff which I don't think assists count tward your killing which is going to be a problem in co-op and tier 10 is play a survival for a hour which honestly for me I always end at 40 since I need breaks since I'm not a grinding machine.

the whole point of it was to actually reduce the grind and focus on different aspects of the game, to branch out, if you will, and try new things to better yourself as a player.  Right, all you need to do is level, and it's boring and meaningless, to be honest.  It just tells how much you've leveled.  Throw some achievements in there, and all of a sudden, you actually have to "do" something productive.

 

 

One major flaw I see with this proposed system is that the game does not currently keep track of most (if not all) of the stats mentioned. Hence everyone would be reset to rank 0. As a player who had grinded my way through the MR, not really willing to go through all of that again to obtain the tier rewards.

 

Another problem is that players would have to do a very specific set of actions to advance from tier to tier. One aspect of Warframe that I love is the freedom to play however you like, and this system restricts players of certain tiers to only play in a fixed manner.

 

If this system were to be implemented to replace MR, eventually Tier-elitism would appear as well. At least MR could be gained easily; new players with low tiers would face an even larger wall to join high level missions.

I'll admit, this was still in concept phase when I posted it.  Again, the point was for the mastery system to be less grindy.  Who said you had to get new weapons to level to the next mastery rank?  There are plenty of r6 people who are founders because they didn't want to get any more gear.  Same idea goes with this.  It doesn't necessarily confine you to a way of playing, but rather allow you to branch out to move up.  

 

Also, there's already mastery elitism.  That isn't going anywhere any time soon.

 

 

I don't think the grind is going anywhere soon. we have to learn to live with it.

The XP gained for all the leveled frames, weapons and companions star-chart completion etc, will still be pertinent.

 

Just an idea.

[-Kryptyk-]

Yeah, can't see myself being happy about this. I dont like Vauban, his skill set just doesn't suit my playstyle, but I still leveled him and tried to have fun with it. Based on your tier system I wouldn't be able to get past tier 7 without playing a frame I don't enjoy again.

Same for tier 9, I don't enjoy conclave, why should I have to do something I don't enjoy in order to rank up? 

 

I enjoy ranking up weapons, I'd prefer it stayed at that.

well, suit yourself then.  No one is forcing you to level weapons that you don't like for mastery either.  It's about branching out with an open mind, trying new things.  Being elite in all things is more respectable than being elite in a few.  Instead of just complaining about something you don't enjoy, make it work instead.  That's what I did... I honestly can't stand frost from his stereotypical defensive playstyle, but I figured out a way to make him offensive.  

 

Adapt.  Learn.  Master.  I think that's what this game should be about, not just grinding your way through endless levels.... 

Edited July 30, 2015 by PriZms

[Miish.]

The Forma idea is good enough, this highly over complicates and gives no value to mastery rank.

[-Kryptyk-]

The Forma idea is good enough, this highly over complicates and gives no value to mastery rank.

Mastery has little value already... look on the forums, and you'll see that everyone is already screaming for something tangible that tells of skill level.  All adding forma does is make you go to sechura one more time.  

[dexmetomyne]

I'll admit, this was still in concept phase when I posted it.  Again, the point was for the mastery system to be less grindy.  Who said you had to get new weapons to level to the next mastery rank?  There are plenty of r6 people who are founders because they didn't want to get any more gear.  Same idea goes with this.  It doesn't necessarily confine you to a way of playing, but rather allow you to branch out to move up.  

 

Yes, let's see if this concept can be fine-tuned by looking at its problems early on.

 

Would you not agree that experimenting with new weapons and frames allow you to branch out even more?

 

 

I am going to clarify what I meant regarding restriction.  Lets take for example 

Tier 5 achievements would be strictly mobility based.  Wallrunning while shooting, killing enemies while in the air, scaling walls for a certain distance, etc.

This could potentially place a block on T5 players from advancing in the system unless they are willing to spend some time solely doing acrobatics.  Maybe if we could unlock T5 achievements even from T1-4, it would be more viable.

In comparison, to advance MR, there is no restriction on whichever weapon or frame one chooses to level.

 

 

Again, the point was for the mastery system to be less grindy.  

 

Also, there's already mastery elitism.  That isn't going anywhere any time soon.

I consider MR-elitism to be a rather serious problem in game. Instead, looking for a way to make ranking in the game "less grindy" would defeat Warframe's model. As the current situation stands, it is impossible for devs to churn out content fast enough to keep players hooked for long; having to grind is a way to keep players playing.

[DrBorris]

So you basically took the Mastery Rank tests and put them on steroids, I can dig it.

 

 

However, the current MR does NOT need to go. A statistic that represents how many items you have used in a game is a good statistic, but not one that can be used to define a pleyer's skill or progression.

[Aigloblam]

Mastery has little value already... look on the forums, and you'll see that everyone is already screaming for something tangible that tells of skill level.  All adding forma does is make you go to sechura one more time.  

 

When things are as customizable as they are in Warframe, there will never be Tangible "Proof of skill". Ever. Its just not something this game is even remotely set up to do. And if there was, the elitism would be infinitely worse. You can't boil a person's Gaming Career worth of skill into a single Metric. Completely impossible.

 

[Wolfssenger]

So I’ve been seeing a lot of posts lately about mastery, what it means, what it should represent, why it’s no longer a viable option anymore, etc etc. There have been numerous suggestions, and some interesting ideas for sure. But I haven’t seen anything that fixes this at the core. We need an overhaul of the core problem, not covering it up by making mastery include leveling with forma. How can we tell what kind of skill, or mastery, a player has? Hear me out on this… How about an achievement system that contributes points toward tiers of skill levels? Here’s how this would work.

First off, get rid of the current mastery and replace it with this (oh god, rank 19’s no longer having bragging rights! Honestly, there’s not much to brag about, calm down.). The tier system will work like this:

There will be ten tiers of achievements, and by default you would start at tier 0 (no accomplishments done yet, right?). Every tier would have a certain set of achievements within it that are based on different aspects of the game, and all achievements within a tier would need to be completed before moving up to the next one. Let’s take a look at some examples (keep in mind, these are just ideas and examples):

Tier 0 achievements: get 100 kills, get 1000 kills, get 500 melee kills. Complete all the achievements, you unlock tier 1, which would show in your name in squad lists just like the current mastery level number does (again these are examples, the idea is to start easy and increase in difficulty.)

Tier 1 would have its own set of achievements, like level 4 frames to 30, acquire 8 weapons, etc.

Tiers 1-5 could be accomplished by yourself or with a team, and tiers 6-10, would have to be done in a team setting to further grow your team-play skills.

Tiers 1-4 could just be for getting new gear, leveling (and keeping) items, getting kills, working the trade channel, etc. They could even be faction-themed (specific tiers would have achievements that are for going against corpus, grineer, infested, and/or corrupted.)

Tier 5 achievements would be strictly mobility based. Wallrunning while shooting, killing enemies while in the air, scaling walls for a certain distance, etc.

Now, to get from 5 to 6, you would need to have completed a certain number of missions in a squad, and it would have to be a high number. This would separate the solo players from those who run in squads. Nothing against solo’ers, but this is a co-op based game, and if you’re gonna head into a raid, they would need to know that you can function well in a team setting (I see rage coming, God help us all....).

Tier 6 would start off the team-based achievements that can only be acquired by having more than one player in a squad that isn’t afk for more than 90 seconds. Tier 6 can be assault and accuracy-based achievements.

Tier 7 can be tactical/support based: ex. Heal so many team mates so many times in one mission, choke point 15 points in a map with Vauban successfully, remove procs on allies with oberon so many times in one mission, Revive so many team mates over a certain time period, etc., snipe a certain amount of undamaged enemies, snipe a certain amount of aiding enemies (ex, ancient healers, eximuses, etc)

Tier 8 can be Stealth: use a team of four to complete 5 spy missions without alerting any enemies, headshot so many targets silently, rescue prisoners and get them back to extraction without alerting anyone, etc

Tier 9 could be conclave-based (within a team, not free-for-all).

Tier 10 would be endurance based. Make sure your entire team compliments each other as far as loadouts, because here, you’ll have to go for at least 60 minutes in a t4 survival, or 60 waves in a defense, etc

When you hit rank 10 and achieve all the accomplishments, you earn the title Master and earn your own sigil, customizable armor set, etc.

This “tag” of “tier x” could be placed above players’ names in the esc menu when in a squad. That way, you have a clear indication of skill that isn’t based on how much you’ve farmed or leveled, but rather by a log of what you’ve been able to accomplish and perform in the game and as a team.

Now, you might think, well, what if there are achievements where you have to acquire so many weapons and level them, then the player gets rid of the ones he doesn’t want? I’m still working on this part as well, but there should be some sort of penalty system for going against an acquired achievement, maybe if it’s a certain amount of points lost which cause an achievement to be lost, and therefore decreasing your tier? Not entirely sure, but it would also help protect against trolls who claim to have mastery and really don’t. The goal is to train every tenno to be versatile within the game and to develop skill in as many areas as possible, so when the time comes to join something like a raid, or conclave, or something of the like, all players will know that everyone is capable.

How to get to the next tier after completing the achievements? Just like our current mastery tests, except the test you would take would reflect all the achievements you completed within the tier you’re trying to move up from.

This would actually make all those challenges in our profiles actually mean something, if they’re included in this. I think everyone forgot about that part!

Also, matchmaking! based on the tier system instead of mastery!

So thoughts?

This screws over solo players, and they will whine. Sry mate.

[-Kryptyk-]

Yes, let's see if this concept can be fine-tuned by looking at its problems early on.

 

Would you not agree that experimenting with new weapons and frames allow you to branch out even more?

 

 

I am going to clarify what I meant regarding restriction.  Lets take for example 

This could potentially place a block on T5 players from advancing in the system unless they are willing to spend some time solely doing acrobatics.  Maybe if we could unlock T5 achievements even from T1-4, it would be more viable.

In comparison, to advance MR, there is no restriction on whichever weapon or frame one chooses to level.

 

 

I consider MR-elitism to be a rather serious problem in game. Instead, looking for a way to make ranking in the game "less grindy" would defeat Warframe's model. As the current situation stands, it is impossible for devs to churn out content fast enough to keep players hooked for long; having to grind is a way to keep players playing.

solid reasoning!  Nice tweaks! :D

This screws over solo players, and they will whine. Sry mate.

well.... the game is co-op based, soo... there's that.

[-Kryptyk-]

So you basically took the Mastery Rank tests and put them on steroids, I can dig it.

 

 

However, the current MR does NOT need to go. A statistic that represents how many items you have used in a game is a good statistic, but not one that can be used to define a pleyer's skill or progression.

you know, I thought of that as well... but I couldn't decide if it would be confusing to have to look at two metrics instead of one for leveling and progression or not.  I know players' profiles tell what they have leveled and what-not... maybe we can utilize that section a little more as well. 

[bloodystainednikes]

To be honest, the only thing i'd like to see is a stat that's shown on player profile of how many hours they've played.

[-Kryptyk-]

To be honest, the only thing i'd like to see is a stat that's shown on player profile of how many hours they've played.

it's already there

[saintsspider]

You say the game is CO - OP based.... DID DE confirmed you in a written statement or something ?? I like your idea but this right here is a wrong statement.

 

I for one only needs to know one thing when I make a random squad for t3 or t4 survival 60 min grinding

1. Are their weapons totally top notch

2. Have they maxed out and made their WF op so they can survive/ Protect/ Kill till high tiers.

3. Would they be a burden on me or be an asset for the team( diying too much, running away from the battle field, not EV/healing/protecting enough)

4. And finally is each and everyone of them able to keep the hordes of enemy at bay

 

MR Tells me this .. maybe not 100% , or not even 60% but at least in my own statistical analysis of how many times i have run high tier missions and the kind of MR squad mates have; I know the better the MR the better my team's CHANCES are.

 

I like your idea to be included in the game along with MR as it would make me do more things for fun, things i dont like to do but would want to do even thats fun, cuz most times i find out that hey i actually like doing that or playing with that frame.

 

but as i said for me MR means the success of the mission, thats all i need to know. 

All you guys are coming to a solution when No on even know what the real problem is. Find that problem first.

Edited July 30, 2015 by saintsspider

[UndeadGhostWarrior]

Il stay mr 19 tyvm

[(PSN)wonderwoman814]

I hate this idea. It just seems worse than what we have now. if not kind of the same just more irritating .