[Heavy Spoilers] The Natah Quest Revelation (Now With Pictures)

[Morec0]

There is a school of thought that thinks humanity is affirmed by celebrating weakness and frailty. Like crying and helplessness.

 

There is another school that thinks humanity is also affirmed through other qualities, such as tenacity, determination, willpower, stoicism, bravery, even in the face of overwhelming odds, defeat, ultimate death.

 

These two viewpoints cannot be reconciled. They are separate focuses and forces.

 

Celebrating? No.

 

Not being a monster and forcing a wounded, dying man to fight on?

 

There's no celebration of weakness in wanting to help others and keep others from harm. Tenacity, determination, willpower are all fine and dandy, but when someone falls it serves no purpose to tread on them or use them as your own personal shield.

 

For the third time: don't put words in my mouth.

 

But, ultimately, yes, it seems our views of humanity simply do leave us unable to come to fair enough ground on this.

Edited August 3, 2015 by Morec0

[Cosmosframe]

how can i get this quest?

[Kaotyke]

how can i get this quest?

Do missions on Uranus, bring a Scanner. The being you must scan will spawn like a Death Squad from a Syndicate, but you will glow blue instead of red. Scan it and let it scan you, the moment you get out of the mission the Quest will be in the Codex. I suggest Sabotage Missions, avoid Exter since there is a bug where the enemy stop spawning and you are unable to finsih the mission.

[(XBOX)Grihaly]

Something that came to mind: Did the Orokin know of Lotus?

I think not.

Judging by the abundant amount of Lotus symbols in the Void, I'd say yes.

[fishworshipper]

Judging by the abundant amount of Lotus symbols in the Void, I'd say yes.

Remember though, that there was no Lotus at that point in time. Instead there was Natah. It was after the Tenno went into cryosleep that she rejected her nature as Natah and became the Lotus.

 

It seems more likely that the Orokin simply liked that symbol and Natah adopted it as a method to help gain the trust of the Tenno, before eventually fully taking it as the Lotus.

[Morec0]

It seems more likely that the Orokin simply liked that symbol and Natah adopted it as a method to help gain the trust of the Tenno, before eventually fully taking it as the Lotus.

 

Aye. It would have been a familiar symbol to the Tenno, made it easier to slide in and assume a position of leadership.

 

The question remains: how and when did she managed to do this?

[helix.hex]

Let me get this straight. The Sentience took control of the Tenno and ended the war between them and the Orokin, and once they had expended the use of the Tenno, the plan was to execute the remaining Tenno; yet, the Lotus defied her kind to spare the Tenno, and proceeded to hide us throughout the Sol System to protect us from both the Sentience and the Orokin survivors...and most of you want to betray the Lotus who liberated us from both the Sentience and Orokin?

THATS WHAT I HAVE BEEN SAYING FOR THE PAST WEEK!!

 

bad logic guys: bad logic

[Terumitsu]

So, on a whim. I did a google of 'Natah' and found it is an old Hebrew word meaning (more or less): 'to stretch out, extend, spread out, pitch, turn, pervert, incline, bend, bow.'

Given the implications of the Lotus' mission, this seems to mesh with the theory of her being the one who turned the Tenno against the Orokin. At the very least, the word seems to imply distortion of some kind.

[(XBOX)Grihaly]

Aye. It would have been a familiar symbol to the Tenno, made it easier to slide in and assume a position of leadership.

 

The question remains: how and when did she managed to do this?

It's possible, and I don't like this, but it's possible we had a Lotus, and the Sentients killed her and replaced her with Natah, or, and I really don't want to say this, Natah killed her and took her place. That's just a possibility, and I can't think of much else, it's not like you can just apply to an empire for the job of guiding super humans.

[Morec0]

It's possible, and I don't like this, but it's possible we had a Lotus, and the Sentients killed her and replaced her with Natah, or, and I really don't want to say this, Natah killed her and took her place. That's just a possibility, and I can't think of much else, it's not like you can just apply to an empire for the job of guiding super humans.

 

Hmmm, so there was a Lotus before all of this and Natah claimed her spot?

 

iiiinteresting... It definitely seems out there, but interesting.

 

If the location of the Void Shadow we find during Hidden Messages is any indication, she DID talk with us while we were in Origin before the the Sentients were pushed out and we followed them back to Tau (as seen in Mag Prime), so that gives us SOMETHING of a timeframe, but... It still leaves a lot of things open.

[(XBOX)Grihaly]

Hmmm, so there was a Lotus before all of this and Natah claimed her spot?

 

iiiinteresting... It definitely seems out there, but interesting.

 

If the location of the Void Shadow we find during Hidden Messages is any indication, she DID talk with us while we were in Origin before the the Sentients were pushed out and we followed them back to Tau (as seen in Mag Prime), so that gives us SOMETHING of a timeframe, but... It still leaves a lot of things open.

But the thing I'm a little confused with, in the Hidden Messages quest, Lotus seemed to have 'forgotten' the details, and only remembered them as we progress through it. If I'm correct, only the Tenno lost their memory, which is why (and I only spoiled like 80% of the Natah quest, so I could be mistaking) she still had memory of her... Sentient ties, so, why did she completely and utterly forget about Mirage?

 

A possibility: Those were memories of a different Lotus. I don't like this theory, but there is still a monumental amount of questions.

[Morec0]

But the thing I'm a little confused with, in the Hidden Messages quest, Lotus seemed to have 'forgotten' the details, and only remembered them as we progress through it. If I'm correct, only the Tenno lost their memory, which is why (and I only spoiled like 80% of the Natah quest, so I could be mistaking) she still had memory of her... Sentient ties, so, why did she completely and utterly forget about Mirage?

 

A possibility: Those were memories of a different Lotus. I don't like this theory, but there is still a monumental amount of questions.

 

Lotus herself says "There are gaps" in the finale, which I take to be gaps in her own memory. She seems to have lost some of it herself - not nearly as completely as the Tenno seemingly have, but still to the point where something like Hidden Messages would have come back to her.

 

And the idea of multiple Lotus' crossed my mind as well, due to Burning Lotus' appearance. But it's a possibility. I doubt it, but it's a possibility.

[helix.hex]

or natah is a parasite sentient and she and the old lotus are conflict. because the way she talks is somewhat of a person with split personality disorder. 

 

remember we dont know if lotus got away from the sentients in the hidden message.....or how..

Edited August 4, 2015 by helix.hex

[(XBOX)Grihaly]

Lotus herself says "There are gaps" in the finale, which I take to be gaps in her own memory. She seems to have lost some of it herself - not nearly as completely as the Tenno seemingly have, but still to the point where something like Hidden Messages would have come back to her.

 

And the idea of multiple Lotus' crossed my mind as well, due to Burning Lotus' appearance. But it's a possibility. I doubt it, but it's a possibility.

It's been months since I played that, there 'gaps' in my memory as well, point taken, especially since Mirage's death was (hundreds? thousand maybe?) years ago.

 

I doubt it too, and I hope that is not what happened.

 

 

 

because the way she talks is somewhat of a person with split personality disorder. 

lolwut?

[helix.hex]

It's been months since I played that, there 'gaps' in my memory as well, point taken, especially since Mirage's death was (hundreds? thousand maybe?) years ago.

 

I doubt it too, and I hope that is not what happened.

 

 

 

lolwut?

i made a topic on my view

[helix.hex]

So I point out the flaws in your wildly unbelievable theory, and because you know I'm right, you resort to platform bashing?

not reaaly nine times out ten consoles is wher i meet the most self-center people in the world....which is why i broke my headset and threw it away from day one.

 

the fact you had to say you  "laugh" at someone idea. is enough to shwo there is a core problem with your personal life. which is why i called console players "children".

 

most "children" believe it is right to insult anothers beliefs in front of other to make themselves feel good. and adult doing this would have some kind of punishment or shame in it.

 

whatever your problem is i hope you get well soon. and i do play Xb1

[Coryphaus]

You say giving a man strength to fight on despite mortal injury is being a monster?

 

It's bad enough that Lotus is a space mom, now Mag must be a space girlfriend?

 

That soldier could not be saved. There would be no ships able to take him back through the rail. There are no doctors, no space ambulances, no paramedics, no place he can return to. Conveniently overlooking this point is dishonest. Convenient, but dishonest, or worse delusional.

 

Mag doesn't need a human shield or a bodyguard. No matter how hard you try to spin this, this fact is self-evident except to the most invested in creating an imaginary monster.

 

Mag gave that soldier an option other than just giving up in the face of an enemy waging a war of extermination. She gave him the option and the strength to continue fighting on when others would just have just expected him to lie down and fade away. This is humane.

 

Nothing you say or spin will take away from her act of kindness and that soldier's heroism.

 

I have not put any words in your mouth. Illustrate how I have done so if you disagree.

 

Celebrating? No.

 

Not being a monster and forcing a wounded, dying man to fight on?

 

There's no celebration of weakness in wanting to help others and keep others from harm. Tenacity, determination, willpower are all fine and dandy, but when someone falls it serves no purpose to tread on them or use them as your own personal shield.

 

For the third time: don't put words in my mouth.

 

But, ultimately, yes, it seems our views of humanity simply do leave us unable to come to fair enough ground on this.

[helix.hex]

Yeah, I've been reading your comment Helix, and I have to agree with Girzzy (Despite hes a Xbone), you got mad and you fed him what he wanted, Hate, if you whuold of accepted the truth, you'll whuold of been fine.

eh you win some. you lose some. now then.

 

back to the topic!

 

still going with brain parasite!

[Laucivol]

I've got to say, as a veteran myself, that matter-of-factly what Mag did was due and right.  In the circumstance, what else is there to do?  Honestly he was trying to wave off the fog from the injury by how I read it, not wave her off.  It's established that there is no viable retreat vector in this battle, it's like trying to retreat from the beaches of Normandy during D-Day, practically assured death and probable doom for many.  Beach heads suck like that.

 

Surrounded by the enemy... well to quote Chesty Puller, "We've been looking for the enemy for some time now. We've finally found him. We're surrounded. That simplifies things." 

 

There's fiction, and reality will always be stranger/cooler and what fiction draws from.  Mag and Mirage are not inhumane for taking a bad circumstance, and making something noble out of it.  I'm not denying that the Tenno have a lot of mental issues as a result of being literally made into warriors by force (see the Spartans for an arguable example - or more contemporary, many modern vets. Wars, and the warrior's path, are a very costly matter on the human element), but these events don't point to it.  Just a code of ethics which is devoted to overcoming the enemy (see WWII for what humanity does - and how noble it can be - when faced with the most grotesque of war e.g. Medal of Honor recipients).  An enemy, which for some reason unknown to us, is equally devoted to exterminating the species (far as I can tell).  That back against the wall situation demands great things, and the Tenno are uniquely situated to make it happen.  

 

That said, for Mirage's story, I'm still not completely convinced it's the Lotus' story even as she recounts it - she has clear confusion to what she's saying.

 

As contrasted by the Natah arc, she's solid in her statement, confident in what's going on.

 

That said, to the immediate topic, I can see some merit to the thought of multiple Loti (or -es, if that floats your boat), though there's a substantial lack of evidence to even how that might fit.   What we do know is that the one known as Natah did not complete her duty (sequence), which Teshin draws out of her which is to destroy the Tenno.  She redefines herself as 'mother,' and takes on the sobriquet 'the Lotus'. The rest, as they say, is history.

 

As for why the pseudo-Lotus states that he cannot stop them seems straight forward to me - she's broken some big rules and is beyond defense from him.  To me, it feels pained, longing to protect but unable to do so.  As in: she's committed high treason and is irredeemable as a result for the evidence - the Tenno - is apparent.

 

In essence, he's not strong enough to protect her any more.  It seems like lamentation to me. 

[SilentMobius]

You say giving a man strength to fight on despite mortal injury is being a monster?

 

It's bad enough that Lotus is a space mom, now Mag must be a space girlfriend?

 

That soldier could not be saved. There would be no ships able to take him back through the rail. There are no doctors, no space ambulances, no paramedics, no place he can return to. Conveniently overlooking this point is dishonest. Convenient, but dishonest, or worse delusional.

 

Mag doesn't need a human shield or a bodyguard. No matter how hard you try to spin this, this fact is self-evident except to the most invested in creating an imaginary monster.

 

Mag gave that soldier an option other than just giving up in the face of an enemy waging a war of extermination. She gave him the option and the strength to continue fighting on when others would just have just expected him to lie down and fade away. This is humane.

 

Nothing you say or spin will take away from her act of kindness and that soldier's heroism.

 

I have not put any words in your mouth. Illustrate how I have done so if you disagree.

Yeah, I'm with Coryphaus here. I can't see anyway to interpret that Mag Prime codex entry as indicitave of a lack of humanity on the part of the Tenno.

That Tenno wearing a Mag Warframe, didn't need to save that soldier, it didn't help their mission, they didn't need the assistance. They took time out of their mission to help a fellow soldier live longer, perhaps survive long enough to muster an extraction if any such thing was coming. Most likely to simply allow them to die fighting rather than burn/freezing in space after an ambush. "Go down fighting" is a very human notion, bedfellows with notions of honour in battle and respect for you fellow soldiers.

[Terumitsu]

A little note or difference in point of view but while many seem to see the phrase of 'I cannot stop them' said by the 'Burning Lotus' as a kind of lamentation of some sort, I felt it came off more as a backhanded threat than anything. 

 

But that's just my perspective.

[Laucivol]

A little note or difference in point of view but while many seem to see the phrase of 'I cannot stop them' said by the 'Burning Lotus' as a kind of lamentation of some sort, I felt it came off more as a backhanded threat than anything. 

 

But that's just my perspective.

 

I can see that as well, though.  It's deliciously ambiguous - I'm looking at the literal terminology and my perceived connotation based on that (cannot indicative of purely unable to do so) - and you're taking it in a different direction (equally valid), as in will not.  As though the subtext was, "I could, but I won't help you, you've gone too far." Or some permutation thereof.

 

Thing is, that without more context, we will put our own spins on it based on a combination of a whole slew of things (that is to say perspective and what goes into that).

 

I lean towards the lamentation thought because it's what I want to see in the apparent big bad wolf (EG the possible leader of the local Sentient branch), a willingness - though not always ability - to care for family. On the grander context it makes sense because of the apparent familial relationship between the two.

 

Though the logic of the spite fits too, in the grander context of apparent betrayal (the incomplete sequence, and more?) and how the speaker would react to it.  Arguably not very kindly, depending on wider context - including culture, which we have the foggiest - and there's strength in that thought.

 

Ultimately, at this point, it's a matter of taste.  Far as I can see both arguments are compelling in their own right (and who says it can't be a mix of both? Sentient creatures are complex, and it's quite obvious that these ones do have emotions of some potent sort).

[Terumitsu]

Hmm.. Another thing.. And pardons if this has been explored already as I do not remember the entire thread.

 

Could the Hidden Messages quest be taken as Natah encountering Mirage before she was the Lotus? Perhaps whatever happened there was the turning point of when she began to decide to disobey the final step of the mission? I mean, the way she speaks about it, she seems to be actually there and I always found that odd for someone who I had felt was an AI of some kind up till this point.

[Tengu147]

Hmm.. Another thing.. And pardons if this has been explored already as I do not remember the entire thread.

 

Could the Hidden Messages quest be taken as Natah encountering Mirage before she was the Lotus? Perhaps whatever happened there was the turning point of when she began to decide to disobey the final step of the mission? I mean, the way she speaks about it, she seems to be actually there and I always found that odd for someone who I had felt was an AI of some kind up till this point.

 

Wait... So you're saying that we might have known the Lotus while she was still Natah? I thougt of it as that she became the Lotus during her mission as a sleeper agent (gain out trust, etc.), but then finally 'killed' Natah when she chose not to complete the final sequence and hid the Tenno away, after coming to love and care for them.

 

I kinda look at the incident as the first known example to which the Lotus' convictions started to waver. Maybe that's just one of the many events that made her change her mind about us.

[Laucivol]

With that thought though, that she may or may not be an artificial intelligence of some sort (if we run with the assertion that the Lotus is a Sentient, whom we do not know their nature clearly as of yet) it's not impossible that there's a third party.  I'm still not convinced that in the Hidden Messages quest that the lines spoken by the Lotus were her.

 

Might be, good possibility, but really not sure.

 

Considering there is some sort of feed to the central command (in context, now, the Lotus), it could be anything considering that we could have been picking up data ghosts from the prints which fed bad to the Lotus.  Even if she's not AI, but there's that close of link.  Well, it could be a really detailed link.

 

I'm kinda going of the deep end here.. but:

 

We know for a fact that there's a data feed to the Lotus, she mentions it cutting out on the arrival of the Sentient scout.  What we do not know is how much data is transferred.  Presumably video and audio feeds, probably biometrics (or whatever the Tenno's vitals show up as... not even sure there), energy readings and such.  Possibly even thoughts, which could lead to interesting problems.

 

What comes to mind is this scene in the Matrix: Reloaded.  At about 10 seconds in, you'll see the control room I'm thinking.

 

 

Of course the details aren't that austere white with human beings plugged in, but the general idea.  A control center, where the data is processed and instructions given in a virtual construct.  Considering that, unless I'm misconstruing something massively, she's in contact with pretty much all on mission Tenno (which is to say constantly).  Though that's almost as bad as assuming the Tenno do not sleep, because we do not see them sleep, nor does the visible elements of the Liset have bed or - as Ordis periodically reminds us - chairs.

 

That level of back and forth communication, once confronted with the scan of the Sentient is both why she initially lost connection (to certain energy types/signals vulnerable), and to make it appear a fluke on their scans she abandoned the Tenno.

 

Kinda makes sense to me.