Why Are The Snipers Even In Pvp?

[AlphaSierraMike]

Ok so at the start, it was pretty difficult in the first place with its massive reticle, which i hated, but whatever, zoom mods kinda bandaged up that problem. Then it gets its legs broken by the decrease in damage making it a very weak three body shot kills, most of the time requiring four, and on top of that, we covered the wound with a huge pile of salt in the form of Parkour 2.0, making headshots nearly impossible unless the dude is walking/standing still. And now the Sybaris/Latrons straight up outclasses the Sniper Rifles, akin to walking over the corpse and teabagging it.

 

Sybaris outperforms the Vectis just in terms of damage per bullet, not to mention Sybaris is 2 shot burst and its burst delay is faster than Vectis' reload time. Latron P also outdamages Vectis, has a significantly faster fire rate. Both have a mag bigger than the total ammo of the Vectis, and, in my opinion, a better aim reticle that doesn't cover up the targets entire face with room to spare at mid-long range.

 

"But snipers can one shot headshot..." etc. Parkour 2.0 pretty much nulled it as a balancing factor, unless you're playing against ground huggers. Every movement was, in a way, made to make even body shots more difficult, imagine trying to land a shot on a head that's a fifth of the size of the body, 

 

If it was two shot, at least it's usable, but at the moment, why does snipers even exist in PvP?

 

The secondary buffs look alright though, stuff like AkSomati and Dex Furis. Seems like they're going for the backup secondary route instead of finishing secondary. Except for the Twin Grakatas. Like, Bruh....

 

Side note: .... yay. more knockdown weapons... because we have such a shortage on those..... -_-

 

 

[Skaleek]

Agreed, snipers need a little love, i think perhaps a bonus stagger effect would be an interesting choice.

[JonBenj]

Agreed, snipers need a little love, i think perhaps a bonus stagger effect would be an interesting choice.

 

Stagger effect, as in stopping the player for any amount of time would equal certain death for an experienced Vectis/Prime user.

 

2 body shots was about right.

[AlphaSierraMike]

Agreed, snipers need a little love, i think perhaps a bonus stagger effect would be an interesting choice.

I would have to disagree on that idea, when snipers can potentially put someone on permanent stagger and earn a free kill that way, and that's not something I want on any weapon. I sure as hell don't want a long range Kogake in the game. Besides, with the resist stagger mod, this function would just be useless at long range outside of a support role if it remains 3 shot kill, where you stagger someone and another person picks up the easy kill. Again, screw easy kills. But if it's a 2 shot kill and staggers, then it's just a free kill, again.

 

Having innate Dead Aim on sniper rifles to make scoped shots 2 shot kill have been suggested before, which, in theory, would make it viable for its long ranged role, but limiting its close range capability by making unscoped shots 3 shot kill. The only problem is the fact that Vectis has the lower zoom scope, similar to a regular AR, making it less crippling at close-medium range. Personally, even with a higher zoom, I can still make it work and have 2 shot kill in close range, but I dunno.

Edited August 13, 2015 by AlphaSierraMike

[Burnthesteak87]

Imho the problem is this one: 
Intro:
In the earlier PVP there was a ridicle mobility, but still there were plenty of occasions to hit a target during orizontal moviment, some weapon was oneshotting, and for balance got nerfed. Of course, for that kind of meta, Oneshots were toxic.

Now with Parkour 2.0 (which is really nice), the occasions to hit a target got reduced. So hard to hit weapons like Latrons, Lex, etc. are getting rebalanced again to kill targets in the small window a sniper has now. Even like this, hitting a moving target is painful.

The Problem:
Now the logic error is: Weapons mustn't be balanced around the window of opportunity the actual Parkour offers now (so to oneshot in the smallest occasion you have), but to give Parkour some limit, to give BOTH a chance to react and fight back your aggressor AND a chance for your aggressor to make its own move.

The Solution:
Imho a Stamina based limitation would be the right answer. Check more information on the link, but in short, preserving full stamina would mean being FAST, having the opportunity for escaping your target, doing achrobatics do dodge its attack (exactly what you can do now freely with Parkour 2.0), while after ending or having Stamina low would mean you are SLOW, you've done your move and now it's time for your opponent to go on aggressive and taking a chance to beat you.
This would also give an occasion to lethal guns like sniper guns to have a chance at hitting the target without excessive difficulties.

This way, without the need of abusing stuns and stagger, and avoiding toxic oneshots, there can be a good gameplay of attack and defense, maybe even giving some weapon chances to exhaust the enemy stamina faster (arrows pierced in your body?, automatic secondaries with low damage?) for some alternative strategy.


https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/501868-about-just-gone-stamina-pvp-feedback/
 

Edited August 13, 2015 by Burnthesteak87

[-InV-igo95862]

Twin Grakata best sniper rifle: http://gfycat.com/ParallelFreshFoal

 

but in all seriousness any hit scan weapon with decent accuracy can preform as sniper. There needs to be more differentiation between sniper rifle and hit scan weapon. I remember that in Planetside 2 all weapons had a drop off with distance but snipers had fall off at much higher range compared to other weapons. Maybe do the same? Add drop off to all hit scan weapons except sniper rifles. That way snipers will have a unique niche - long range weapon - and no other weapon will out preform it at long distances.

Edited August 13, 2015 by igo95862

[-dicht.ThanksFrost-]

Imho the problem is this one:

Intro:

In the earlier PVP there was a ridicle mobility, but still there were plenty of occasions to hit a target during orizontal moviment, some weapon was oneshotting, and for balance got nerfed. Of course, for that kind of meta, Oneshots were toxic.

Now with Parkour 2.0 (which is really nice), the occasions to hit a target got reduced. So hard to hit weapons like Latrons, Lex, etc. are getting rebalanced again to kill targets in the small window a sniper has now. Even like this, hitting a moving target is painful.

The Problem:

Now the logic error is: Weapons mustn't be balanced around the window of opportunity the actual Parkour offers now (so to oneshot in the smallest occasion you have), but to give Parkour some limit, to give BOTH a chance to react and fight back your aggressor AND a chance for your aggressor to make its own move.

The Solution:

Imho a Stamina based limitation would be the right answer. Check more information on the link, but in short, preserving full stamina would mean being FAST, having the opportunity for escaping your target, doing achrobatics do dodge its attack (exactly what you can do now freely with Parkour 2.0), while after ending or having Stamina low would mean you are SLOW, you've done your move and now it's time for your opponent to go on aggressive and taking a chance to beat you.

This would also give an occasion to lethal guns like sniper guns to have a chance at hitting the target without excessive difficulties.

This way, without the need of abusing stuns and stagger, and avoiding toxic oneshots, there can be a good gameplay of attack and defense, maybe even giving some weapon chances to exhaust the enemy stamina faster (arrows pierced in your body?, automatic secondaries with low damage?) for some alternative strategy.

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/501868-about-just-gone-stamina-pvp-feedback/

No no one wants this, stop trying to push forward your own agenda using a different topic. It is much easier to hit a target now than before, to say we need stamina is like saying that you simply cannot handle hitting moving targets.

I have killed people mid air, while flipping and killed people who are flipping, jumping, and rolling, not to mention I use a bow. Saying to add a stamina bar makes 0 sense and is bringing the game back to square one, stamina is not comming , no one wants it and the devs do not want it.

1 shots are not toxic, this is the "oh its like cod so its bad" toxic mentality. In a movement heavy game like warframe one shots are not a big problem. You can easily avoid someone's line of fire. And with the extremely low ttk the devs have integrated lately, we should at least try to make snipers and bows 1 shot again. Back in 1.0 when snipers used to more or less 1 shot along with most of the weapons the game became not entirely reliant on gunskill, but had emphasis on movement and positioning and premeditated thinking.

[Bizzaro21]

I feel your pain guys, I`ve made a thread about it a while ago, here: https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/504269-vectis-nerf-was-too-much-pvp/

[AlphaSierraMike]

Twin Grakata best sniper rifle: http://gfycat.com/ParallelFreshFoal

 

but in all seriousness any hit scan weapon with decent accuracy can preform as sniper. There needs to be more differentiation between sniper rifle and hit scan weapon. I remember that in Planetside 2 all weapons had a drop off with distance but snipers had fall off at much higher range compared to other weapons. Maybe do the same? Add drop off to all hit scan weapons except sniper rifles. That way snipers will have a unique niche - long range weapon - and no other weapon will out preform it at long distances.

 

You still need a fast TTK to feel like a sniper, but anyway....

 

The dropoff thing would be nice, i guess, but I doubt DE would expand dropoff to weapons outside of shotguns, since changing the mechanics in PvP would probably mean changing PvE as well, and nobody wants dropoff in PvE. And if the change only applies in PvP, then the characteristic of the weapon changes between PvP and PvE, not exactly a pleasant feel, I would imagine.

 

But then again, this would probably make balancing easier, since with this the devs can define engagement distances instead of making every weapon "medium ranged" and just changing damage figures so a weapon can either be mediocre in close quarter and useless in mid range or beastly in close range and above mediocre in mid range because damage is fixed. For example, the Grakata can have a fast TTK up close but is restricted to close quarter by having a massive damage dropoff past 5m. But at the moment, just to make it not as melty in mid range, the close range output is somewhat mediocre.

 

Another way, i guess, would be lowering accuracy on all weapons according to their role so that it statistically do the same thing, less shots landing = less damage. But yet again, it's changing the weapon's stat outside of damage, which apparently, it's the only thing the PvP team is allowed/wants to tweak.

[Burnthesteak87]

No no one wants this, stop trying to push forward your own agenda using a different topic. It is much easier to hit a target now than before, to say we need stamina is like saying that you simply cannot handle hitting moving targets.

I have killed people mid air, while flipping and killed people who are flipping, jumping, and rolling, not to mention I use a bow. Saying to add a stamina bar makes 0 sense and is bringing the game back to square one, stamina is not comming , no one wants it and the devs do not want it.

1 shots are not toxic, this is the "oh its like cod so its bad" toxic mentality. In a movement heavy game like warframe one shots are not a big problem. You can easily avoid someone's line of fire. And with the extremely low ttk the devs have integrated lately, we should at least try to make snipers and bows 1 shot again. Back in 1.0 when snipers used to more or less 1 shot along with most of the weapons the game became not entirely reliant on gunskill, but had emphasis on movement and positioning and premeditated thinking.

I'm offering a possible alternative to think about.

Forums are made to show opinions and discussing about it.

If you just refuse them because you have some resentment toward me, it's not my problem.

Also be careful when saying "nobody wants, and dev do not want", "1 shots are not toxic, this is the "oh its like cod so its bad" toxic mentality" because you're making assumptions on informations you can't fully afford.

[-InV-igo95862]

You still need a fast TTK to feel like a sniper, but anyway....

 

The dropoff thing would be nice, i guess, but I doubt DE would expand dropoff to weapons outside of shotguns, since changing the mechanics in PvP would probably mean changing PvE as well, and nobody wants dropoff in PvE. And if the change only applies in PvP, then the characteristic of the weapon changes between PvP and PvE, not exactly a pleasant feel, I would imagine.

 

But then again, this would probably make balancing easier, since with this the devs can define engagement distances instead of making every weapon "medium ranged" and just changing damage figures so a weapon can either be mediocre in close quarter and useless in mid range or beastly in close range and above mediocre in mid range because damage is fixed. For example, the Grakata can have a fast TTK up close but is restricted to close quarter by having a massive damage dropoff past 5m. But at the moment, just to make it not as melty in mid range, the close range output is somewhat mediocre.

 

Another way, i guess, would be lowering accuracy on all weapons according to their role so that it statistically do the same thing, less shots landing = less damage. But yet again, it's changing the weapon's stat outside of damage, which apparently, it's the only thing the PvP team is allowed/wants to tweak.

 

They seems to have ability to change spells and weapons in depth: Miasma deals poison damage instead of corrosive, Equinox sleep has invulnerability on first shot, Daiky has limited charge time...

 

However, what I am concerned about is their ability to play test. It seems there is only one person working on PvP (Joe - judging from devstream 49) If he is alone there is no way he can test all the changes. What he should do is follow the Icefrogs (balance designer of dota) way - have a dedicated team of beta testers from community.

[TaylorsContraction]

Please no stamina, that's a trouble suggestion. No stagger either, just revert the damage to how it was before three nerf. 2 shot body,1 shot head. It wasn't nearly as strong as the daiq when it first came out.

[Skaleek]

As a follow up to what i was saying with the stagger. First of all, there is a mod that makes you immune after a single stagger, and second, if getting staggered means you will die to a sniper, i highly suggest playing mag and combo'ing with pull, you still wont instagib. That's why i made the suggestion of utility over damage.

[Shin]

Yes. Trying to take take headshot kills with a sniper rifle is just Disgusting. There is no other way to put this out. Even when the target sits still, the Scope on Sniper rifles are horrible. Quite possibly you cant find a worse scope on a sniper rifle anywhere in game industry. 

 

I would suggest different Scope types with Multiple zoom levels as a mod. Right now anyone who uses Braton or something has a higher chance at taking out someone. 

 

We seriously need different scopes. Vectis prime is my favourite weapon but i cant even use it because its practically useless.

[Rakshal]

Might want to throw the Grinlok in this category of terrible sniper like weapons with it's amazingly bad 3-4 shot kill.

[Burnthesteak87]

Yes. Trying to take take headshot kills with a sniper rifle is just Disgusting. There is no other way to put this out. Even when the target sits still, the Scope on Sniper rifles are horrible. Quite possibly you cant find a worse scope on a sniper rifle anywhere in game industry. 

 

I would suggest different Scope types with Multiple zoom levels as a mod. Right now anyone who uses Braton or something has a higher chance at taking out someone. 

 

We seriously need different scopes. Vectis prime is my favourite weapon but i cant even use it because its practically useless.

This maybe could be fixed with a secondary fire utility, enlarging the Scope.

Anyway given the quickness of the action I don't think this would change the matter about Headshots. The problem are Momentum in actions and the Window of Opportunity.

This can either be achieved with a Stamina 2.0 or putting a "moment of recover" on every parkour action.

For example you can see it after an high jump, dropping and landing on the ground takes some seconds of animation for the Tenno to recover and start moving freely again.

 

[-dicht.ThanksFrost-]

Anyway given the quickness of the action I don't think this would change the matter about Headshots. The problem are Momentum in actions and the Window of Opportunity.

This can either be achieved with a Stamina 2.0 or putting a "moment of recover" on every parkour action.

Even if you want to ruin the game by adding stamina, the current TTK is so low that snipers will still not be a viable choice.

 

Also

 

 

I'm offering a possible alternative to think about.

Forums are made to show opinions and discussing about it.

If you just refuse them because you have some resentment toward me, it's not my problem.

Also be careful when saying "nobody wants, and dev do not want", "1 shots are not toxic, this is the "oh its like cod so its bad" toxic mentality" because you're making assumptions on informations you can't fully afford.

It's not a possible alternative, that's going backwards. With the multitude of solutions and things that can be done, you go towards the most radical change of adding back the stamina bar. It's because of the new parkour system that PvP actually has some depth and enjoyment. Noobs can use their melee spams and power spams pros can use their guns with no problem. This is the first conclave build since release that I and many of my old vet buddies can actually counter spammers. Removing stamina will basically revert that and no one wants to be grounded and slashed to death by someone who is just slapping his hand on the E key.

Edited August 14, 2015 by Eureka.seveN

[Burnthesteak87]

A pity that the game still needs a lot of changes, you can't drop scared and reticent just by a single proposal.
And don't even think that this is going to stay like this forever.

Changes need to be done, you can't deny it forever just because "old vets" feel cozy in this environment.
Also, who said that the ALL vets are feeling like this? This is an assumption made on your own, you're making yourself the spokesman of a circle. Then, feeling cozy for what? And what's the value of this "experience" since the old Conclave was even more broken?
No need to answer, I've enough years of psychology and gaming experience to understand what's going on in PVP gamers' heads.

Can you be objective about it and skim the opinion from unnecessary rancors?
 

Edited August 14, 2015 by Burnthesteak87

[Lakais]

If you want to feel true frustration with "sniper" weaponry. Try the Opticor. It takes half an hour to get to full charge and even when you want to half-charge shots, each shot has like a second's worth of delay before you can start an another charge.

Yeah you can basically one-shot anyone with full charge but as I said, that full charge takes enough time for any yahoo to cross the map without parkour 2.0, stab you with a channeled galatine (channeling costs need to be WAY upped) , find and kill one more person before this blueballs of a weapon would be ready to fire off a full blast.

And that's almost fine. But the biggest problem is the fact that you can't do any kind of follow up shot. Not only do you need 5 seconds to charge before the gun will even fire, but you need to pause for a full second or more after a shot to start charging the other shot. That second might not sound like much, but it makes all the difference in the world.