Proposed Multishot Change Mentioned In Devstream 59 [Megathread]

[(PSN)CO-CITY-BOSS]

I think DE needs to watch this video... they are making to many weapons obsolete/useless. Edited September 13, 2015 by (PS4)CO-CITY-BOSS

[Boltwin]

Reduce? There are only two primary and three secondary "mandatories". This mandatory thing has been blown completely out of proportion. Even with the "mandatories" there is still plenty of room for diversity and being a special snow flake. Hek, even the "mandatories" are not actually mandatory for 90% of the content, you could easily clear the star chart without either serration or split shot if you wanted too.

There is not plenty of room. the next mods that you add are 2 90% element mods, a punchthrough mod if applicable and 2 crit mods if it is a crit weapon or 2 other element or dual stat mods. You could go with a plain weapon if you want, but does it make sense? People like to see high numbers and use the stuff they actually have and not cripple them self just to make the game more challenging.

 

I made a few suggestions regarding those mandatory mods and this would pretty much free up some space to add some fancy new mods

 

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/523620-damagemultishot-mods-choice-of-mods-in-general-and-possible-new-mods/#entry5862020

[ArsVampyre]

Remove, no. scale down to the point where they aren't obligatory 100% of the time, yes.

 

The problem, of course, is Primed Point Blank.

Damnit Pauli, stop screwing with Uncle Touchy!

[ArsVampyre]

The "funny" thing is on the same stream Rebecca mentions how Carrier is the most used sentinal and off camera Steve says "something has to be number one".

Carrier isn't #1 because of it's weapon, it's #1 because of vacuum. If you could put that on another sentinel, I'd use that instead.

 

The pickup dog is not the same. Carrier is about collecting loot. Killing stuff is secondary. In fact, I bet many of the carrier users have the Striker precept off so it won't steal their melee kills.

 

Regardless, the point stands. NO matter what they do, there will be 'mandatory mods' because people enjoy min/maxing and they'll find a way to do it in whatever the situation is. I think DE needs to stop trying to fight that and just embrace it, and let people choose different paths by making the under-used mods stronger, not making the 'mandatory mods' weaker.

[Hueminator]

Regardless, the point stands. NO matter what they do, there will be 'mandatory mods' because people enjoy min/maxing and they'll find a way to do it in whatever the situation is. I think DE needs to stop trying to fight that and just embrace it, and let people choose different paths by making the under-used mods stronger, not making the 'mandatory mods' weaker.

Although it is true but if they remove serration and replace it with "exilus" slot which only let you put in things such as clip size, reload rate, max ammo, zoom, noise reduction, ammo mutation, and special mod that specific to the weapon type (thunderbolt, + range for beam weapon, covert lethality and such), I think that it would be more fun trying to min and max with these mods.

 

Imo the goal is reduce the damage gap between various build.  (Ex: 4 element + 1 more element mod vs 4 elements + 1 straight damage mod)

Edited September 14, 2015 by Hueminator

[(XBOX)thinkfast78]

why do we want to nerf these great ideas. multi shot is fine. it turns 1 bullet into many. it does a great job and is a great idea. if it takes ammo it will then be a fire rate mod. i have said this in other post. but why not change certain enemy types so that multi shot does not do as much damage to them as it would do to other enemies. why not make more accuracy mods. multi shot isnt a problem its a great idea. now before anyone says since when does a gun change a bullet into multiple bullets, its done by tenno and orokin science.

[Hueminator]

why do we want to nerf these great ideas. multi shot is fine. it turns 1 bullet into many. it does a great job and is a great idea. if it takes ammo it will then be a fire rate mod. i have said this in other post. but why not change certain enemy types so that multi shot does not do as much damage to them as it would do to other enemies. why not make more accuracy mods. multi shot isnt a problem its a great idea. now before anyone says since when does a gun change a bullet into multiple bullets, its done by tenno and orokin science.

You can call it another firerate mod but imo it would be more like:

 

Turn Semi/Charge into Burst weapon

Turn Burst into more Burst weapon per click (since firerate mod only affect delay between each click)

Turn Full Auto into Kohm (without the spread penalty)

 

The only thing it actually turn into fire rate mod is continuous weapon (since the firerate mod doesn't really affect it)

Edited September 14, 2015 by Hueminator

[DxAdder]

Ok here a out of the box thought:

 

What if they went to the Arch WIng Weapons style ? i.e. NO Ammo at all with lower benefits for mulitshot and serration?

 

Less items to render, Vacuum dependency lowered ?

[(PSN)obsidiancurse]

There is not plenty of room. the next mods that you add are 2 90% element mods, a punchthrough mod if applicable and 2 crit mods if it is a crit weapon or 2 other element or dual stat mods. You could go with a plain weapon if you want, but does it make sense? People like to see high numbers and use the stuff they actually have and not cripple them self just to make the game more challenging.

 

I made a few suggestions regarding those mandatory mods and this would pretty much free up some space to add some fancy new mods

 

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/523620-damagemultishot-mods-choice-of-mods-in-general-and-possible-new-mods/#entry5862020

Lol what? The elements, punch through, crit chance etc etc ARE the customisation. You have proven there is more than enough scope already. Or are you now arguing that elements are mandatory too, same with shred, point strike etc? The madness doesn't stop does it?

I stand by my claim that for 90% of the content there are no true mandatory mods. Sure there are optimal ones but no matter how many you take away there will always be an optimal build. DE should be adding new mods, that's the way to encourage build diversity, not reducing what we have.

[Brasten]

Ok here a out of the box thought:

 

What if they went to the Arch WIng Weapons style ? i.e. NO Ammo at all with lower benefits for mulitshot and serration?

 

Less items to render, Vacuum dependency lowered ?

 

Switching Ammo to a regeneration system would help in the longish run with modding for "endurance" missions vs burst down boss kill missions. However it doesn't change the core problem.

 

Enemies Scale to Infinity.

 

Until that is fixed, and a hard upper limit imposed on enemy health/armor no amount of "nuclear balancing" will magically create diverse end game mod builds.

 

You cannot balance around Infinity. If you try, you break your game or turn it into the exact same thing at every level of play, just with bigger numbers.

 

Warframe has a maximum theoretical limit on the players. 120 Mod Energy. An Overcharge Weapon, with every slot with the perfect polarity. If one were to actually create a game system around that fact, we could see legitimate moves at so called balance around that.

 

Straight up we can do the math on how much damage any fully maxed out Warframe can take. This should inform how much damage the enemy AI should be able to dish out. Likewise the same math can be done for our weapons, which can determine how much damage a Max Level enemy should be taking. At that point we are starting to talk real balanced gameplay.

 

We also know where the breaking point is, where player will being to lose by inches. Where the damage they do, and the damage they take is mathematically less than can actually be achieved. Which is fine because at that point you have end game. Where player's ability to manipulate actual combat in real time starts making the difference between success and failure, and the math game is only the platform on which the experience stands.

 

=====

 

What's happen is DE is "balancing" our warframes and our weapons around the broken Infinite Scaling Enemy Stats. Until that stops, this game will never see balance.

Edited September 15, 2015 by [DE]Danielle
Removed dev bashing comment

[Auramaru]

People are gonna rage so hard, while forgetting weapons will also be rebalanced for it.

 

Multishot doesn't have a drawback, so it makes sense to change it. Especially if it was always meant to consume ammo.

Hold on, since when do mods require a drawback?

 

Normal mods aren't CORRUPT mods. They are supposed to be all good.

 

Are you saying that Serration ought to decrease accuracy too?

 

This is some really messed up logic. Why would mods exist if they were just supposed to add stats only to take away an equally vital portion of the gun's functionality?

Edited September 14, 2015 by Aura

[(PSN)whoistimjones]

People are gonna rage so hard, while forgetting weapons will also be rebalanced for it.

 

Multishot doesn't have a drawback, so it makes sense to change it. Especially if it was always meant to consume ammo.

Its not a Corrupt mod its a nightmare mod, it shouldn't have a drawback.

[AdunSaveMe]

Its not a Corrupt mod its a nightmare mod, it shouldn't have a drawback.

Hold on, since when do mods require a drawback?

The point is that it's mandatory. We're meant to have 8 slots, but all we have is the 6 after you put in multishot and serration.

Edited September 15, 2015 by AdunSaveMe

[Hueminator]

Some mod that do have a drawback while not really a corrupted mod are Thunderbolt and the secondary version (the drawback is self damage).

[Zeis]

RIP status grakata prisma

[achromos]

 

 

The point is that it's mandatory. We're meant to have 8 slots, but all we have is the 6 after you put in multishot and serration.

 

 

"Mandatory" such a good buzz word.  Why not call it what it really is.  "Best-In-Slot"  Adun, Mandatory implies that you physically CANNOT do without, when you actually can. You are a smart person Adun, I would want to say... do you think, by any stretch of the imagination... that Min/Maxers like me, and other players wont find the Next "Best-In-Slot" for the most efficiency?  Doing this will NOT magically fix the 'mandatory' issues, because people that refuse to go with the general "Best-In-Slot" of the year will be behind those that DO sacrifice those slots.

 

The funny part is, that when they do change multishot like they are planning... The GRIND will increase exponentially because you will be killing things at least TWO times slower especially in High-End-Content.  However, let's say they do balance the game around this change to where It's not so bad.  I mean I do have confidence in DE to do such a thing.  Regardless of that there will always be a BiS "Best-In-Slot" in this game for the weapon of your choice.

Edited September 15, 2015 by achromos

[-Dantos-]

 

 

The point is that it's mandatory. We're meant to have 8 slots, but all we have is the 6 after you put in multishot and serration.

 

 

If we're going that route, then really we have 4, because i cant think of any weapon off the top of my head that I wouldnt throw at least 2 elemental mods on, heck we might as well say we only have 1 or 2 slots if its a high crit weapon.

Edited September 15, 2015 by Vanroe

[Hueminator]

If we're going that route, then really we have 4, because i cant think of any weapon off the top of my head that I wouldnt throw at least 2 elemental mods on, heck we might as well say we only have 1 or 2 slots if its a high crit weapon.

Then again you could argue it is not "mandatory" because there is 8 elemental mods (include dual stats) and if you include the IPS there are more.

 

The elemental 90% also compete with the dual stats (the issue of pure damage vs status chance in late game).

Edited September 15, 2015 by Hueminator

[(PSN)kira4715]

Yes damage mods are mandatory just like elemental combos and crit mods for crit based weapons >_> when will people get that every game has "mandatory" gear if you wanna min/max 

[panagio]

For me the way to fix the problem is unlimited mod slots with only the limitation of mod capacity and a fix in RNG and enemy scaling and i would prupose a fix for the RNG to be like lets say u get a forma at C rotation it must decrease the chance of getting a forma again in the same game by 50% and that way everything else drop rate would be boosted the same for resources u get like nano spores for instance next drop sould have a 5-10% to be the other uncommon drop as for the rare resources lets say u get like a detonite injector u must have a 10% more chance to get a neurode instead for the case of earth or drops based on affinity the possibilites are unlimited but at the end DE is all about the nerfs...

[DxAdder]

Switching Ammo to a regeneration system would help in the longish run with modding for "endurance" missions vs burst down boss kill missions. However it doesn't change the core problem.

 

Enemies Scale to Infinity.

 

Until that is fixed, and a hard upper limit imposed on enemy health/armor no amount of "nuclear balancing" will magically create diverse end game mod builds.

 

You cannot balance around Infinity. If you try, you break your game or turn it into the exact same thing at every level of play, just with bigger numbers.

 

Warframe has a maximum theoretical limit on the players. 120 Mod Energy. An Overcharge Weapon, with every slot with the perfect polarity. If one were to actually create a game system around that fact, we could see legitimate moves at so called balance around that.

 

Straight up we can do the math on how much damage any fully maxed out Warframe can take. This should inform how much damage the enemy AI should be able to dish out. Likewise the same math can be done for our weapons, which can determine how much damage a Max Level enemy should be taking. At that point we are starting to talk real balanced gameplay.

 

We also know where the breaking point is, where player will being to lose by inches. Where the damage they do, and the damage they take is mathematically less than can actually be achieved. Which is fine because at that point you have end game. Where player's ability to manipulate actual combat in real time starts making the difference between success and failure, and the math game is only the platform on which the experience stands.

 

=====

 

What's happen is DE is "balancing" our warframes and our weapons around the broken Infinite Scaling Enemy Stats. Until that stops, this game will never see balance.

 

Endless missions are why we are having these issues, for a Min/Max player ALL 8 slots are mandatory for maximum DPS. If fact all they do care about is DPS, so no matter what they do if they drop the DPS by 1 point the min/maxers are going to be pissed its unavoidable.

 

DE has painted themselves into a corner, how are they going to address this ? I have no Idea.

[(XBOX)XOGXshadowlight]

People are all for multi shot nerf but when has DE ever put out a actual good nerf that does not kill a weapon/warframe... as I recall never. MultShot Nerf is a NoNo.

[(PSN)theraputicGreen]

Personally I don't mind the rework that's coming.This is a change that needs to happen whether the community likes it or not.

After the rework we should all hold a bet to see who throws the largest hissy fit about it.

[(XBOX)Trauma Paladin]

Seems like they're trying to address the whole mandatory mod situation but by doing it in this way they are sacrificing weapon diversity for mod diversity. Which seems like they are really just trading problems.

[(PSN)CH13F_CR0SSB0W]

I know the devs are saying the proposed changes to "mandatory mods" like multi shot and serration type mods are for build diversity. However, there's a large part of me that thinks it has a lot more to do with their desire to address enemy scaling by nerfing our damage, increasing grind, and possibly even worse.

I have a fairly simple solution if it truly is about MOD DIVERSITY and not to NERF AND TROLL THE COMMUNITY.

*Remove multishot and serration(hornet strike, pressure point, point blank) mods from the game and BUFF the damage of all the weapons in game.*

By doing this, the devs could create more build diversity by freeing 2 mod slots. This solution would also not nerf our weapons into the ground. Scott said in a recent TENNO CLOCK YouTube video that he has ALL the weapons and their dps out on a spreadsheet. Take the percentage that serration and multishot add to each weapon, and add that percentage to the base damage of each weapon.

Another step should probably be taken by the devs if something like my proposal were implemented: SOME SORT OF COMPENSATION FOR LOST RESOURCES. This could be something like 20 complete legendary forma (which would change the polarity while leaving the weapon at level 30)...legendary cores...platinum...etc.

I believe this solution would address the mandatory mod and build diversity issue, but I fear that the devs aren't being entirely transparent with their intentions for this change.

Let me know what you all think.