Proposed Multishot Change Mentioned In Devstream 59 [Megathread]

[Illamonati]

RIP anything that is not ammo efficient.

 

This^^

 

Guess im starting to level the Phage and Qnanta V.

 

Its a totally stupid idea btw...

...shotguns will be literally useless.

Edited September 8, 2015 by Illamonati

[Countess_Hapmuhr]

Change is good. The game is just going to stagnate if everyone is afraid of changing things to see what works better. I'm optimistic for the multishot change and hopeful about the ensuing rebalancing. Even if it doesn't work out, lessons will be learned. Hopefully it will end up with more viable options wrt weapons/mods loadouts.

 

Nerfs to players' ability to get to wave 80 or w/e in endless missions doesn't really tug at my heartsrings.

 

Not all change is good, just look at the "new" star chart which is still a complete disaster to view and navigate.

 

Also, I don't fancy having to forma all my old weapons again to make them viable in a new system. It was bad enough to do that once damage 2.0 hit. I just won't go through that crap again.

[PapaFragolino]

From Scott's Twitter.

 

 

[Lightsmith]

Personally they should just make some mods mutually exclusive.

You can have Serration OR Multishot as example. Of course, balance would still need to be done. A third mod part of the set would be a damage AND Multishot ie. 50% of each of the pure mods.

[Acos]

As of the most recent devstream the Multishot nerf is being explored by the developers as an answer to the somewhat high amount of damage that weapons with access to Multishot are capable of doing in comparison to other options, such as melee or our rather luck-luster damage power options (I mean, Psychic Bolts. Like, srsly?)  

The proposed idea seems to be that multi-shot would no longer produce 'magic' ammunition, but instead pull those extra shots from the ammo clip of the weapon. This immediately poses a few problems as many weapons do not have very large clips, and using a nerfed Multishot on those weapons would result in a larger decrease in DPS than other weapons that do have a larger clip as they are forced to reload much more frequently than something with a large spool. Compare the Hek Shotgun to something like the Boltor Prime or Soma Prime; The Hek Shotgun would need to reload after every shot where the Boltor or Soma have a lot larger clips and therefore more staying power. 

~*BLAH BLAH BLAH THIS IS THE NEW IDEA PART, READ HERE: 
My proposed idea for approaching the nerf is that Multishot should not pull from the current clip, but rather our larger ammo pool. Gameplay-wise, nothing really changes in our short-term DPS. Our weapons aren't all re-classified as 'Vectis', and the adjustments the playerbase needs to make are pretty minimal. Long-term we'll start to find that our weapons are running out of ammo more frequently, which will encourage players to actually switch out their weapons based on ammo for the first time ever, use ammo mutation mods, or use ammo restores. 

I think nerfing Multishot in this way gives us the best of both worlds; the mod doesn't become entirely useless or only heavily favoring certain weapons (and really, the Boltor Prime doesn't need more favoritism), but at the same time there is an appropriate cost for the amount of power that equipping a Multishot mod gives you that is fairly universal across the board. Equipping the mod gives you an immediate and obvious increase in burst damage regardless of the weapon, but whether or not you want to deal with trying to sustain your ammo pool means that the mod isn't just an obvious no-brainer either. Powerful, but no longer mandatory. 

ONE MORE THING

All of the above considered, that doesn't mean that the developers still shouldn't go through weapons and make our current 'bullet-hose' weapons a bit more sustainable. Things like the Twin Viper, AkZani, Dex Furis, and several others eat ammo so fast that they are already quite unappealing, and I can't imagine that situation improving if Multishot is also eating through ammo reserves. Having a gun that is only relevant for a few seconds probably isn't going to be terribly popular with anyone. 

AND ONE MORE THING
I might also encourage the developers to consider baking mods like Pressure Point, Serration, Point Blank, etc, into the weapons themselves, increasing their damage as they level up until rank 30 where they act as though they have a fully modded version of their base damage mod already slotted. Just from personal experience; I dont' tend to enjoy any weapon until it has at least a couple of mods on it, and the long march from taking an un-forma'd, no-potato, unranked weapons to a high enough rank that I can equip the most basic damage increasing mod that every weapon equips no matter what (hyperbole?) is kind of an agonizing process. Having Serration & Friends be innate gives us more mod space to work with, lessens the intense psychological damage of nerfing multishot (and I am absolutely billing you for the therapy), and makes ranking up new weapons less of a mind-numbing chore. 

Thanks for reading, and try to keep it constructive~
 

[rechot]

my twin grakatas arnt going to have a ammo pool anymore lol

[swizzybeatzjamz]

I personally don't want multishot to be needed

Simply because I put forma in my weapons so I could slot in multishot mods. It didn't seem all that broken to me.

But DE the creators said a change must come.

And there is nothing we can do about it but accept it.

My idea: its extremely simple, instead of ammo consumption make the second bullet caused by multishot mods, do 60% of the damage of the original.

Ammo consumption didn't seem like a good idea to me.

I think this suggestion would be balanced

[Jubileyr]

Some people do believe that's broken because makes no sense, a bullet that hits for two, "eventually". Eww, no. If you can imagine a bullet "eventually" being ripped in the middle of it's path then striking the enemie with not one, but 2 projectiles, then you have the actual formula. The problem is that both projectiles have the same dmg, same proc chance, and both adds to crit countage. Thinking like that you'll probably reach the fact that is somewhat broken, physically wise (there's also the fact of multishot being a mandatory mod on builds, which they've aborded and which i will ignore because i'm here to make the mod make sense and not nerfing the s**h out of this game).

 

So now, considering that schematic which a projectile have a chance to be ripped in the middle of it's path towards the target, what if, instead of destroying my bullet sack, the "y" pieces generated by that very projectile would do "projectile/y" of dmg EACH? It's a simple math that WILL DROP DOWN DMG as the first thought of yours, but it'll be build-wise when we're speaking of PROC and CRIT scale, kunais would still trigger more-than-one concealed explosives each bullet and the reloading boring time would be kept the same.

 

 

Think, just think about it.

Edited September 9, 2015 by Jubileyr

[Tesseract7777]

Can this not go in the megathread? Do we need yet another independent thread about multishot change? 

[Jubileyr]

that's a whole different mechanic being presented instead of "yea, good idea using all my bullets at once" either being satiric or serious pissed.

[Tesseract7777]

What does that have to do with this being yet another thread about the multishot change when we already have a megathread for anything related to the topic? Why can't this thread be part of that discussion? Link to megathread is here: https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/522950-proposed-multishot-change-mentioned-in-devstream-59-megathread/page-58

[low1991]

YAY! with the offical summary out, i finally see the statement 'look into balancing weapon DPS'

 

DE, can we have this? v

Yes, where every weapon have a Base DPS of 10 (including reloading second)

Of which eac different weapon category after receive buffs (sniper: crit dmg & %, shotgun: massive dmg & greater fallout, etc)

And enemies taking full 100% at weak spot, reduced damage (by x amount) on armors/others. More for heavies etc. [don't scale by level], 

Health of enemies with 1 hp at base level 1, 10 for heavies etc, and slowly scale up.

Damage of enemies weakened. (minor scaling, +1 DPS for commons per 20 levels, +1 DPS for heavies per 10 levels, etc )

Shield, Health, ability damages of Tennos lowered.

Ammo regain over time (different rate for each category), picking up ammo restore 100%, lowered drop rates.

 

Let's rock~

Time for Warframe v2.0

*mostly me*

Edited September 9, 2015 by low1991

[Culaio]

As of the most recent devstream the Multishot nerf is being explored by the developers as an answer to the somewhat high amount of damage that weapons with access to Multishot are capable of doing in comparison to other options, such as melee or our rather luck-luster damage power options (I mean, Psychic Bolts. Like, srsly?)  

The proposed idea seems to be that multi-shot would no longer produce 'magic' ammunition, but instead pull those extra shots from the ammo clip of the weapon. This immediately poses a few problems as many weapons do not have very large clips, and using a nerfed Multishot on those weapons would result in a larger decrease in DPS than other weapons that do have a larger clip as they are forced to reload much more frequently than something with a large spool. Compare the Hek Shotgun to something like the Boltor Prime or Soma Prime; The Hek Shotgun would need to reload after every shot where the Boltor or Soma have a lot larger clips and therefore more staying power. 

~*BLAH BLAH BLAH THIS IS THE NEW IDEA PART, READ HERE: 

My proposed idea for approaching the nerf is that Multishot should not pull from the current clip, but rather our larger ammo pool. Gameplay-wise, nothing really changes in our short-term DPS. Our weapons aren't all re-classified as 'Vectis', and the adjustments the playerbase needs to make are pretty minimal. Long-term we'll start to find that our weapons are running out of ammo more frequently, which will encourage players to actually switch out their weapons based on ammo for the first time ever, use ammo mutation mods, or use ammo restores. 

I think nerfing Multishot in this way gives us the best of both worlds; the mod doesn't become entirely useless or only heavily favoring certain weapons (and really, the Boltor Prime doesn't need more favoritism), but at the same time there is an appropriate cost for the amount of power that equipping a Multishot mod gives you that is fairly universal across the board. Equipping the mod gives you an immediate and obvious increase in burst damage regardless of the weapon, but whether or not you want to deal with trying to sustain your ammo pool means that the mod isn't just an obvious no-brainer either. Powerful, but no longer mandatory. 

ONE MORE THING

All of the above considered, that doesn't mean that the developers still shouldn't go through weapons and make our current 'bullet-hose' weapons a bit more sustainable. Things like the Twin Viper, AkZani, Dex Furis, and several others eat ammo so fast that they are already quite unappealing, and I can't imagine that situation improving if Multishot is also eating through ammo reserves. Having a gun that is only relevant for a few seconds probably isn't going to be terribly popular with anyone. 

AND ONE MORE THING

I might also encourage the developers to consider baking mods like Pressure Point, Serration, Point Blank, etc, into the weapons themselves, increasing their damage as they level up until rank 30 where they act as though they have a fully modded version of their base damage mod already slotted. Just from personal experience; I dont' tend to enjoy any weapon until it has at least a couple of mods on it, and the long march from taking an un-forma'd, no-potato, unranked weapons to a high enough rank that I can equip the most basic damage increasing mod that every weapon equips no matter what (hyperbole?) is kind of an agonizing process. Having Serration & Friends be innate gives us more mod space to work with, lessens the intense psychological damage of nerfing multishot (and I am absolutely billing you for the therapy), and makes ranking up new weapons less of a mind-numbing chore. 

Thanks for reading, and try to keep it constructive~

 

 

The thing is that current multishot is ONLY OP if you bring full team with 4xCP to void, if you play with random's or solo (because of unreliable internet connection) then its unimpressive after 35 minute, even boltor prime with strongest build becomes pretty much useless. the whole change to multishot mods is horrible if you dont bring full team with mandatory 4xCP.

 

Also multishot "magic" bullets, are in now way, magic-like, there is pretty simple and resonable explanation, so called DUPLEX ammo:

 

Normally you have 100 bullets in 100 cartridges but in DUPLEX ammo you have 200 bullets in 100 cartridges, and they take the exact same amount of space.

And since we have mods that can turn one ammo type into another then there is no reason why multishot mod cant turn normal ammo into DUPLEX ammo.

[SharkPot]

The thing I wanted to ask was the ammo which will be drained for multishot will it be from magazine or the ammo reserve cause else any short magzine gun will become obsolete as too much reload time.

So could anybody say for sure where the ammo will be drained??

[Mac2492]

The thing is that current multishot is ONLY OP if you bring full team with 4xCP to void, if you play with random's or solo (because of unreliable internet connection) then its unimpressive after 35 minute, even boltor prime with strongest build becomes pretty much useless. the whole change to multishot mods is horrible if you dont bring full team with mandatory 4xCP.

That's simply incorrect. Going from 0% to 100% multishot effectively doubles your damage within your weapon's effective range. There's a reason multishot is mandatory in all builds. With slight nuances (status damage vs. status chance, bullet spread), it's effectively another base damage mod that stacks multiplicatively with base damage. This makes it absolutely mandatory to use elemental damage, base damage, and multishot together.

 

+100% damage = 2x damage

+100% multishot +100% damage = 4x damage

+100% element +100% multishot +100% damage = 8x damage

 

CP has nothing to do with the strength of multishot. Multishot is used because your damage is (at least) halved if you omit it from your build. The same applies to elemental damage and base damage, which is why people describe them as "mandatory mods".

[low1991]

+100% damage = 2x damage

+100% multishot +100% damage = 4x damage

+100% element +100% multishot +100% damage = 8x damage

 

CP has nothing to do with the strength of multishot. Multishot is used because your damage is (at least) halved if you omit it from your build. The same applies to elemental damage and base damage, which is why people describe them as "mandatory mods".

CP reduced the enemies' armor, hence increasing your overall DPS.

You missed out that factor.

 

example: doing 100 damage w/o CP, while with 1 CP = doing 110 damage.

10 damage increase, is it not an increase of DPS?

Edited September 9, 2015 by low1991

[Kolos1001]

Why can't they just buff other mods into usability instead of nerfing the ones the entire game is balanced around. I mean they have some extremely garbage mods...

[Jubileyr]

^ Double it, just do it.

[Mac2492]

CP reduced the enemies' armor, hence increasing your overall DPS.

You missed out that factor.

 

example: doing 100 damage w/o CP, while with 1 CP = doing 110 damage.

10 damage increase, is it not an increase of DPS?

I didn't say Corrosive Projection has no effect on damage. I said it has no effect on the damage increase from multishot.

CP reduces armor. Armor decreases damage by a percentage. If you go from 0% multishot to 100% multishot you will be doubling your damage whether your enemy has 0 armor or 200 armor. This applies until the enemy has enough armor to bring your damage to 0.

 

Suppose 50% damage reduction from armor.

100 base damage

 

without mods = 100 damage * 0.5 = 50 damage

with 100% base damage = 200 damage * 0.5 = 100 damage

with 100% multishot = 2x100 damage * 0.5 = 100 damage

with 100% base damage and 100% multishot = 2*200 damage * 0.5 = 200 damage

 

With 4x CP? 0% damage reduction.

 

without mods = 100 damage

with 100% base damage = 200 damage

with 100% multishot = 2x100 damage = 200 damage

with 100% base damage and 100% multishot = 2x200 damage = 400 damage

 

With or without CP, 100% multishot doubles your damage. CP is irrelevant to this discussion.

 

 

Why can't they just buff other mods into usability instead of nerfing the ones the entire game is balanced around. I mean they have some extremely garbage mods...

 

No amount of buffs to that mod will make it superior or even equal to multishot. Let's say it's 0 cost and +100% status chance at max rank. Will you give up Split Chamber or Serration for it? You cannot solve the problem by buffing other mods when using the three "mandatory" mods in unison (base damage, multishot, and elemental damage) provides over 8x damage without even max ranking them. Ignoring blatantly broken and stupid buffs, there is nothing you can do to fire rate, reload, ammo, status chance, etc... that will ever bring them up to that level of strength.

[achromos]

-snip-

 

You know what is stupidly, blatantly broken?  Enemy scaling.  They should fix that first.  I don't know why you people think that 'mandatory' mods are bad.  The mod system is a both a customization AND upgrade system. 

 

You people keep using "Mandatory" as your buzz-word, yet you don't realize that MMO's make 'mandatory' items all the time for end-game content.  Psst. It's usually called B.I.S or Best in Slot.

 

Do you think that they would nerf a sword because it is something that their players use more often in end-game?  Or a Accessories?  No.  Look at FFXIV for instance.  Look up B.I.S, Min/Max'ing isn't evil, it isn't something that is JUST in warframe and it isn't the wrong way to play the game 'just' because you are throwing numbers "AAARGH SCARY NUMBERS!!" at the screen.  Yes, it gives a huge damage boost, but they still take up slots, you still need to forma for it, and you still need a potato and to level the weapon (for every forma you need/want on it)

 

All this will do in the end is increase the grind.  Don't see it?  Enemies that  based on YOUR Scary numbers will take approx Twice if not more time to kill.  Do you not see what you are doing?  Nobody cares if you oneshot things in Mercury, they shouldn't care.  These weapons, mods, ect have a place and that's end-game. 

 

Before you go:  Oh but nobody should be fighting enemies that hard!!!

 

...  One word.

 

Raid.

 

...  Two words.

 

Nightmare Raid.

 

Understand my point?

 

If DE wants to make less mandatory mods?  Make more INTERESTING mods, make MORE choices instead of kneecapping your players, saying it's a bug and saying that just because people are trying to hammer in common sense into the rest of the community by showing them the fallacy of their plans is wrong and that they will have to 'deal with the demons, or w/e' because guess what...  There will ALWAYS be a B.I.S (Aka, what you call 'mandatory'), there will always be a preferred build, you will just end up switching the builds up as much as you switch your elements nowadays anyway.  So, no, this will not make YOU people seem like better players, and it WON'T solve world hunger.

 

At the end of the day we will still have the same bloated HP enemies that have lack-luster AI that scales so harshly against players to the point of one-shotting us within the first 20 minutes of a mid-tier survival, looking at the grineer ballisticas >.>

Edited September 9, 2015 by achromos

[Culaio]

That's simply incorrect. Going from 0% to 100% multishot effectively doubles your damage within your weapon's effective range. There's a reason multishot is mandatory in all builds. With slight nuances (status damage vs. status chance, bullet spread), it's effectively another base damage mod that stacks multiplicatively with base damage. This makes it absolutely mandatory to use elemental damage, base damage, and multishot together.

 

+100% damage = 2x damage

+100% multishot +100% damage = 4x damage

+100% element +100% multishot +100% damage = 8x damage

 

CP has nothing to do with the strength of multishot. Multishot is used because your damage is (at least) halved if you omit it from your build. The same applies to elemental damage and base damage, which is why people describe them as "mandatory mods".

 

I just meant that with the way enemies scale having over 20k  sustained DPS is not a lot after 35 minute if you dont have corrosive projection or have only one(if you play solo), after 35 minute  20k sustained DPS uses up 1/3 of ammo from your clip to kill ONE bombard that is affected by molecular prime.

 

On the other hand with 4xCP over 20k  sustained DPS  is a lot

[low1991]

Before you go:  Oh but nobody should be fighting enemies that hard!!!

...  One word.Raid.

...  Two words.Nightmare Raid.

Understand my point?

Yes SURE~~~ From what i heard from some players, it seems that you'r NOT suppose to kill/ fight on par with those enemies (level 80+).

What's more, DE can reduce raid' average levels. 

Unless DE nerf scaling, mandatory mods are always a must.

[helix.hex]

they better fix everything else before the damage nerf (it is a damage nerf because of the extra bullet.)

 

until they get there stuff together or quit hitting us witht these damn nerfs i am going to go back to payday 2 and play it.

 

at least i know stealth works in THAT game

[(PSN)NachoZissou]

It's a genuine surprise to me how so many people are apparently looking at their guns and thinking "yeah I like it but I wish it did less damage" or "if only it chewed through ammo faster".

[TheBrsrkr]

It's a genuine surprise to me how so many people are apparently looking at their guns and thinking "yeah I like it but I wish it did less damage" or "if only it chewed through ammo faster".

It's no surprise to me how many people assume that this is what's happening. It's ridiculous.