Direction Of The Mod System

[(PSN)KaxMcc]

Considering the recent announcement of the changes to multishot, I'm gonna go ahead and jump on this wagon as well to discuss what I'm seeing as a huge disparity between what DE and the players seem to want out of the mod system.

 

I've seen plenty of threads made over time that discuss the "serration problem" which, when you boil it down, basically amounts to the lack of diversity in mod layouts leaving a sore spot for a portion of the community. This portion of the community is currently under the expectation that the mod system is supposed to facilitate the customization of our weapons and frames across several different paths. And what we have now only presents us with a single path.

 

But, outside of a few exceptions, there isn't really a whole lot of customization going on with the mod system with the current mods. What is the biggest difference between a crit build and a pure damage build? Depending on the weapon,  one will be better than the other, that’s for sure, but is there really a big difference between playing with the two? What about status builds? You lay down status procs more often but how do you interact with them? Do status procs create any sort of unique situations that affect the way players need to execute? Not really. Usually people stick with the status procs that do the most DPS.

 

For the most part, the current mod system is a puzzle that needs to be solved in a specific way to optimize each weapon. Boltor is a pure damage build Soma is crit build and so on. Based on the proposed changes to multishot, it seems that  what DE is trying to do is to create more configurations that are more specific to each weapon. In other words, they seem to want each individual weapon to have a unique "optimal mod configuration". As opposed to what we currently have, an optimal mod configuration that works for just about every weapon. Which is fair, after all we did ask for diversity and technically that would be it.

 

But, in this respect, DE's ideal mod system isn't really about customization. Its more about upgrading and optimization.

 

What I've seen from many players, on the other hand, is a desire for the mod system to be equal parts optimization and customization. Many players seem to want the mod system to facilitate the optimization of weapons stats and at the same time have room for meaningful customization.

 

This isn't impossible, but it does mean that DE will probably need to change the way they approach these changes. Which means that we need to start telling DE specifically what we want out of the mod system. At this point saying "we want mod diversity" doesn’t seem to be getting the message across but that's probably because were sending the wrong message.

 

If we really want meaningful customization options that exist in parallel with our current upgrade-focused mod system we shouldn't be focused on the mods. We should be focusing on the gameplay.

 

What we need is to be able to reach that optimal level in several different ways. Which means we need to expand on the mechanics that dictate how effective we are.

 

Lets take warframe modding which is currently one of the closest examples of an ideal mod system. When you approach modding a warframe you have several different paths in which you can optimize your frame.

 

If you favor and offensive approch you can optimize one or two of your offensive powers.

If you favor a support role you can optimize your support abilities

If you want to optimize damage mitigation you can either:

-optimize a defensive power to play as a defensive caster

-optimize passive damage mitigation and play as a tank

-optimize movement capabilities and engage in a mobility playstyle

 

Now, granted you can't do all of this with one frame and there is still quite a bit of depth to be added to all of these playstyles, not to mention that there are still a few that aren't even viable. But the core idea here is that there are several different paths available because there are several different ways to achieve the same goal. When it comes to warframes not only can you choose to optimize for both offense and defense, but you also have several different playstyles to be optimized for on both ends.

 

IMO this is what DE should be focused on creating for weapons. New playstyles that are actually viable. Afterwards, creating different mods to facilitate and optimize each playstyle will ensure that the mod system actually becomes more diverse without needing to divert from its core or go through a giant rework.

 

TL;DR: Players seem to want the mod system to be about customizing weapons and DE seems to continue building towards a mod system focused on upgrading weapons. DE seems to know that the players want more mod diversity but they are working towards a different end goal than players want, which is why every change is met with so much controversy. DE should focus on creating more viable playstyles instead of changing mods. Then the problem would fix itself.

 

I could go on but I want to know what you guys think. Are you for or against DE's current mod direction? What direction do you think they should be taking? Where do you think the majority of their focus should be at when addressing this issue?​

 

edit: added tl;dr

Edited September 8, 2015 by (PS4)KaxMcc

[x_Soulframe_x]

Currently I think they should simply add more diversity to the mods/weapons. Look at the warframes for example, they have a very diverse modding spectrum for each warframe. Now if weapons were this unique then alot more people would be forced to diversify the mods on their weapons, say daggers for example.

             Now daggers have became absolutely amazing at stealth, just because DE added the Covert Lethality mod, this diversifies daggers from the rest of the melee weapons. My point is that DE needs to make every weapon type have a certain strength over another and that strength should be even further brought out by a mod or two, that pushes players to build the weapon in the unique way it is supposed to be built.

Edited September 7, 2015 by x_Soulframe_x

[(PSN)KaxMcc]

Currently I think they should simply add more diversity to the mods/weapons. Look at the warframes for example, they have a very diverse modding spectrum for each warframe. Now if weapons were this unique then alot more people would be forced to diversify the mods on their weapons, say daggers for example.

             Now daggers have became absolutely amazing at stealth, just because DE added the Covert Lethality mod, this diversifies daggers from the rest of the melee weapons. My point is that DE needs to make every weapon type have a certain strength over another and that strength should be even further brought out by a mod or two, that pushes players to build the weapon in the unique way it is supposed to be built.

 

I feel like more weapon specific mods is definitely a step in the right direction as far as weapon uniqueness goes but, down the road, I think mods like covert lethality could end up making each weapon type specific to a single playstyle. While that isn't necessarily bad in and of itself, when a lot of people talk build diversity they want each weapon to be usable fo several different playstyles dependant on the mods.

 

That would mean weapons like the daggers would need to also have mods that work towards a seprate end goal that is equally as viable as stealth and there would need to be something to keep players from just throwing covert lethality in along with those additional mods.

 

A lot of people talk about how corrupted-type mods with drawbacks can be used to force the specialization in each playsyle. Do you think that an equivalent disadvantage should be added along with the advantages offered with these new mods?

[(PSN)KaxMcc]

bump for more input

[TARINunit9]

Hit the nail on the head, OP. The mod system presented in the game is geared towards UPGRADING, not sidegrading as a bunch of people seem to want. This isn't TF2. In Warframe, we grind to be more powerful; thus, we expect more grinding to give us better results

 

We grind to become overpowered, not more diverse

 

Yes, Corrupted Mods have downsides, but that's because their upsides are just so much better than non-Corrupted mods. You're still upgrading, just at the expense of something else

[vaugahn]

If the system is about upgrading weapons, it should stop pretending to be a customization system. 

[Firetempest]

Would have liked a "mod" system that had added options Instead of tiering up the weapon, Which should have been the base guns leveling doing the job or forma, that would add a extra level, yet if each level had diminishing returns, all guns would plateau equally. Exceptional high MR weapons with naturally higher base stats could have more xp levels requiring less forma to reach the plateau.

Mandatory mods would have been like new secondary triggers.

Multishot would be like taking a % of the current clip and firing them all at once in a spray.

The shotgun counterpart would be to condense ammo into a slug with no drop off.

Pure damage mods could be changed to a energy channel secondary that adds that boost of damage at the expense of energy per shot.

 

The scopes to increase zoom and crit damage from select body parts.

The faction specific damage would not be flat damage. But perhaps Crit/or natural effects. shots with the grineer mod X would decrease armor by various %s depending on the body part hit, like torso hits would actually decrease more armor. Shots with corpus mod Y would increase elemental effects/weaknesses. Shots with infested mod Z would cause speed reduction, more from leg shots, and so on. Talking about fractions of a percent when aiming at the wrong body parts here, but at high levels with additive effects per hit, the more you wail on a target the more you would actually accomplish. Soon enough, that one grineer will eventually have no armor if it lives that long, or that charger is a bloody mess that cant keep up.

Elemental mods should have been limited to two slots and would make your base damage count as its physical and elemental type without extra damage. The boost in damage should have only came from the weakness the enemy has from that type.

 

It would take a metric ton of effort to do anything close to these lines would basically require damage 3.0, mod 3.0, energy 3.0 all at once. And thats why I think it will never happen.

Edited September 9, 2015 by Firetempest

[(PSN)PillarOfWar]

If the system is about upgrading weapons, it should stop pretending to be a customization system.

I think that hit the nail on the head.

It is just upgrading the damage output. What customization do we have really? A zoom and a silencer that are always passed over for more damage.

The customization is a myth! Or a joke?

[TARINunit9]

I think that hit the nail on the head.

It is just upgrading the damage output. What customization do we have really? A zoom and a silencer that are always passed over for more damage.

The customization is a myth! Or a joke?

Those are utility upgrades, as opposed to damage upgrades. You have a choice, technically. The game predicts (correctly) that the player will gravitate towards damage upgrades, which is why damage upgrades are more expensive drain-wise

 

Yes, you can offset the cost with potatos and formas. At that point, you've basically made a level 90 gun. And a level 90 gun SHOULD be super brokenly amazing

[(PSN)PillarOfWar]

Those are utility upgrades, as opposed to damage upgrades. You have a choice, technically. The game predicts (correctly) that the player will gravitate towards damage upgrades, which is why damage upgrades are more expensive drain-wise

Yes, you can offset the cost with potatos and formas. At that point, you've basically made a level 90 gun. And a level 90 gun SHOULD be super brokenly amazing

Yup. Damage mods = upgrade. Utility mods = customization. So calling the mods system customization puts the wrong idea in our minds. Right?

I'm talking about the guns. Frames are a different beast.

Edited September 9, 2015 by (PS4)PillarOfWar

[(PSN)KaxMcc]

If the system is about upgrading weapons, it should stop pretending to be a customization system. 

 

I feel like DE initially(and probably still) wanted the mod system to be both in one without realizing how different those two systems actually are. And how difficult it would be to mesh them together in perfect synergy.

 

At this point i'd be totally fine with keeping the current mod system as is and letting the ever elusive focus system hanlde the customization aspect that many people seem to want.

Edited September 9, 2015 by (PS4)KaxMcc

[vaugahn]

I feel like DE initially(probably still do) wanted the mod system to be both in one without realizing how different those two systems actually are. And how difficult it would be to mesh them together in perfect synergy.

 

At this point i'd be totally fine with keeping the current mod system as is and letting the ever elusive focus system hanlde the customization aspect that many people seem to want.

 

I'd rather have focus handle stat building and the mods handle customization. The way the mod system is designed (cards, slot/drain limitations, mix and match and random acquisition) seems designed for customization, something more innate and static would be better for the progression side of things.

[(PSN)KiloCrusher]

Although players keep attacking DE for changing the mod system, you have to at least admit that DE has added in some great mods that really change up how certain weapons are used.

 

Covert Lethality took daggers from being useless weapons, to being very functional/deadly stealth weapons. 

 

Combustion Beam allowed primary beam-firing weapons to be used in a completely different way. 

 

etc.

 

With more mods like these that can really change up the way certain weapons are used, DE could significantly diversify the modding system.

[Hypernaut1]

I dont feel that modding diversity is all that important when we have that diversity in the weapon selection itself.

Its not like we have 2-3 basic rifles and depend on mods to change our playstyle. No, we have different weapons that interact with mods differently. We have weapons that crit, weapons with high RoF, status weapkns, etc.

Its redundant to need mods to provide such a huge diversity. I think its unreasonable to expect 20 unique variation of 100+ diverse weapons.

Look at it like this- you have a Braton P. If you would like to use a Braton than crits, instead of a bunch of crazy mods' you just switch weapons to a soma P and tweak it from there. That is you modding diversity.

Edited September 9, 2015 by Hypernaut1

[S.T.M.P.D]

I personally lean towards a separate system for raw stat upgrading and modding to customize my weapon. Warframes sorta fall under that same category because why WOULDN'T you install Vitality and Redirection?

Another trouble as I see it is that for most weapons potatoes and maybe formas are very very mandatory if you want to get the experience you want out of a weapon - but I suppose that's the idea, that you use formas to enhance the build you're after. If that's true, then they need to equalize the polarity ratios so that D polarity isn't such a big wee-wee. Perhaps new, gameplay-based mods could help us be more creative, things like "more fire rate per consecutive headshots" or "plus melee damage when no shield" or "Trigger shield regen on channeling kill". Just - more than raw stat upgrades. We need to make sure that both get love.

[(PSN)KaxMcc]

I'd rather have focus handle stat building and the mods handle customization. The way the mod system is designed (cards, slot/drain limitations, mix and match and random acquisition) seems designed for customization, something more innate and static would be better for the progression side of things.

 

That definitely makes sense, from a design standpoint, but considering that the current mod system is already handling the progressive side of the things it would probably be less work on DE to modify what we currently have to gear it specifically towards that instead of starting from the ground up on both systems.

 

And to be honest, outside of the randomness of mod drops, I think what we currently have is a pretty intersting take on a linear progression system.

 

 

I dont feel that modding diversity is all that important when we have that diversity in the weapon selection itself.

Its not like we have 2-3 basic rifles and depend on mods to change our playstyle. No, we have different weapons that interact with mods differently. We have weapons that crit, weapons with high RoF, status weapkns, etc.

Its redundant to need mods to provide such a huge diversity. I think its unreasonable to expect 20 unique variation of 100+ diverse weapons.

Look at it like this- you have a Braton P. If you would like to use a Braton than crits, instead of a bunch of crazy mods' you just switch weapons to a soma P and tweak it from there. That is you modding diversity.

 

You have a good point, but the current state of our weapon balance unfortunately leaves us with fewer and fewer weapon options as we progress further into the game. And if the upcoming MR changes are any indicator, DE seems to be moving towards a tiered weapon system in which weapons will be acquired only to be made obsolete later on. Not only that, the playstyles that are enabled through changing weapons as of now isn't as distinctive or personalized as the ones people were hoping mods could enable.

 

I wouldn't necessarily say that each weapon needs to have 20 different variations available due to mods but as of now we really have very little to no variation at all. 2 or 3 distinct playstyles that fall within each weapon type would be ideal for me, but in order for that to be possible there would need to be room for further customization beyond weapon choice.

[Burnthesteak87]

" I've seen plenty of threads made over time that discuss the "serration problem" which, when you boil it down, basically amounts to the lack of diversity in mod layouts leaving a sore spot for a portion of the community. "

 

Nope, the problem boils down to the fact that the most efficent way of building is for Max Damage.

 

"  What is the biggest difference between a crit build and a pure damage build? Depending on the weapon,  one will be better than the other, that’s for sure, but is there really a big difference between playing with the two? "

 

Agree on this.

 

" What about status builds? You lay down status procs more often but how do you interact with them? Do status procs create any sort of unique situations that affect the way players need to execute? Not really. Usually people stick with the status procs that do the most DPS. "

 

Here you fail. Status doesn't deal a consistent amount of DPS, status is used for Utility. The elemental combo is used for the damage. The damage is always applied, the status is based on a proc chance.

 

Also I'll criticize the fact you're making preassumptions about DE's doing and decisions, while they lightly told, during the last devstream, what their aim was.

What's about

"DE seems to know that the players want more mod diversity but they are working towards a different end goal than players want" ?

Maybe you got confused by people's mass-whim? Infact it (the riot) has been a public display of ignorance.

Also, what's this attitude? A mass of sheeps orders, DE has to produce it? On what basis?

They yet changed Damage trying to fix exact the same actual problem (absence of build variety), maybe not fixing it in the first try, but still changing the old system into the actual Damage 2.0.

Before it you could go around with a full elemental mod, now you CAN build for different status and damage for different factions. The problem wasn't erased totally, but it still has been an useful change.

 

"  DE should focus on creating more viable playstyles instead of changing mods"

Also this comment shows your incomprension of the real problem. The playstyle has been changed with Parkour 2.0 and can also be changed by working on mods.

Also they're yet doing it by adding weapon-specific mods little by little.

Edited September 10, 2015 by Burnthesteak87

[Phatose]

If the system is about upgrading weapons, it should stop pretending to be a customization system. 

 

How, exactly, is it pretending to be a customization system?  I don't see it claiming to be about customization.  Modules, not modifications.

[vaugahn]

How, exactly, is it pretending to be a customization system?  I don't see it claiming to be about customization.  Modules, not modifications.

 

I mentioned it above. Mix and match random drop modules and a system designed to make you choose between a select group of favorites (this is the big one).

 

If it was purely a stat building system, it wouldn't make you choose to equip a vital stat. That's a completely pointless feature for a stat building system to have. 

[Phatose]

I mentioned it above. Mix and match random drop modules and a system designed to make you choose between a select group of favorites (this is the big one).

 

If it was purely a stat building system, it wouldn't make you choose to equip a vital stat. That's a completely pointless feature for a stat building system to have. 

 

It's also something used in nearly every stat building system used in gaming from D&D onwards.  Banded armor or scale?  Same AC either way.  Mace+5 or Longsword+5?  Same damage, only very slight differences.   Learn lightning bolt or fireball?  Same casting time, same damage, slight advantages to one or the other in very specific situations.

 

This isn't anything more then how stat building systems have been functioning since the introduction of D&D.

[vaugahn]

It's also something used in nearly every stat building system used in gaming from D&D onwards.  Banded armor or scale?  Same AC either way.  Mace+5 or Longsword+5?  Same damage, only very slight differences.   Learn lightning bolt or fireball?  Same casting time, same damage, slight advantages to one or the other in very specific situations.

 

This isn't anything more then how stat building systems have been functioning since the introduction of D&D.

 

You don't have to choose to equip your health stat in any game I've ever played. If they want it to be a progression system, then just let us spend fusion cores on the frame and build our health directly, the same way it's done everywhere. 

 

Also, that's not really a very good example, considering those are all sidegrades and there are no sidegrades in our mod system.

[(PSN)T_ravenis]

I personally lean towards a separate system for raw stat upgrading and modding to customize my weapon. Warframes sorta fall under that same category because why WOULDN'T you install Vitality and Redirection?

-Shrug- different strokes for different folks... I personally only use redirection and vitality on a couple frames, most of them I pick one or the other and if they have a high energy pool (600 or above) I usually opt for quick thinking/prime flow without redirection or vitality. Warframes actually do have a lot of customization, IMO. A big part of this is the way corrupted mods allow you to buff certain powers, which can lead to a whole different feel of a frame. Weapons though feel a lot less customizable... After the formas get slapped on 95% all my builds are just Damage Mods +Crit Mods/Elements good against whatever faction I'm going up against.

I don't really have great answers for the problem the OP brings up, but I do think it's an important discussion to have.

Edited September 10, 2015 by (PS4)T_ravenis

[Lightsmith]

Honestly the only proper direction I see is a complete rework. These simple tweeks will not fix the issue, which even they mentioned on the Devstream with the removal of Serration idea, it would only result in another mod being the new "must have"

 

Fact is "Straight increase" mods (most mods) are not effective. If the whole system were dual stat, with variance in gain and loss, and what is gained and lost, would result in a much more dynamic (although probably harder to balance) mod system.

 

That being said, if they were to just implement that alone things would not work, enemies need to be reworked and / or weapons need to be readjusted. The problem is the current game has been built around people using these mods (Serration and Multishot) and if they make it so people don't want to use them (nerf) or can't (removed) then playing high end content would be like playing it now if you didnt' use those mods.

 

DE can't leave the mod system, since people have put a lot of money and time gathering the mods, (for example a talent tree system for weapons) Options are limited on how to handle the power creep and keeping the diversity. That is likely why we haven't seen new mods other than ones that target specific weapons.

Edited September 10, 2015 by Lightsmith

[MumblesMcphatty]

Also, that's not really a very good example, considering those are all sidegrades and there are no sidegrades in our mod system.

Technically - aside from AC - none of his examples are 'stats' anyway. In fact, actual D&D stats were strangely omitted from the list.

Probably because the stat mechanic actually supports what you're saying here.

[DJ_Redwire]

If the system is about upgrading weapons, it should stop pretending to be a customization system. 

 

It's a hard truth, but a truth nonetheless IMO. In a perfect world there is a place for every mod in our loadouts, and the decisions are made purely based on personal style and preference. Personally I think at some point even I believed that was possible if enough thought and effort was put into reworking mods altogether. But now it's pretty clear that's a lofty and ultimately undesirable pipe dream. 

 

It's a good thing I'm not a dev or Warframe would suck.