Damage /scaling / Guns 3.0

[Deidaku]

All I gotta say DE  is :

 

 

I for one welcome this "nuclear bomb" as Steve said.

 

There was too much unbalance with every new weapon being released.

 

+ Some weapons need to be looked at really really fast

+We die way too fast 

+ melee damage doesn't scale as fast as enemies. The combo meter thing should be looked at again: combos should climb up faster , i mean to get at 2.5*  damage you need 35 hits , if you need 35 hits to kill something , melee wasn't a good choice in the first place. So I hope it will be revisited again

 

+Melee also , shoudln't charge attacks come at the same time as  all these changes? Because if damage is changed and charge attacks come afterwards , => more avoidable fixing....?

 

 

 

 

To sum it up : good idea DE , damage 2.0 's problems have outweighed it's advantages for a while now , the changes need to be done

[Oystar]

we dont need damage 3.0 we need mods 3.0 dmage system is fine aside from a few UI complaints (i want the damage of each pellet on my shotgun not the total and just tell me how many bullets will come out at a time) the fact that seration is always on and split chamber is always on is unfortunate because you could add another elemental mod or somthing fun like one of the reach mods or that melee mod that removes armor from enemys when there hit with impact damage

 

but the slots are taken up and we need to stack more damage on cause its not good enough yet, its going to be a long process and if they do actualy do that id expect to wait for U19 but im happy anything is happening cause anything that'll get people off boltors will be a good thing 

[Flanyr]

At this point it's sounding less like Damage 3.0 or Mods 3.0 but more "Combat 3.0" (Maybe 2.0, not entirely sure)

[[DE]Grzegorz]

We need to address the source of the problem, which is infinite scaling.

Once we get a system where the ultimate solution isn't "the most damage" then we might get to address modding system.

 

As a player, I'd rather have sudden difficulty drop when I'm capable of killing everything thanks to not yet reworked weapons than be left with my hands tied because suddenly my weapons are all peashooters while enemies still turn into bullet sponges rather quickly.

Edited September 10, 2015 by Mofixil

[shut]

we dont need damage 3.0 we need mods 3.0 dmage system is fine aside from a few UI complaints

Honestly, I disagree.

I'm not overly fond of Damage 2.0's type-effectiveness system; it's just the same element-stacking that Damage 1.0 had, except now you have to have a separate build for each faction for maximum viability. It's far less convenient and hardly even solves the "lol rainbow build" problem that it tried to address in the first place; people are still stacking damage all the same, just with a specific set of "viable" elements for each faction.

I'd like to see this change. Having to stack stats against enemies is boring, and having to swap loadouts every time you face a different faction is a nuisance. I'd like to see at least a significant change to our type-effectiveness system to complement our Scaling 3.0 overhaul, so that each element has its own role against each faction instead of certain elements being complete duds outside specific builds (e.g. Gas).

EDIT: Probably should've realized before posting that that's a completely different topic by itself.

OT: It's about freaking time that the devs deal with scaling and "necessary" builds.

Honestly, I hope that stat scaling for both players and enemies gets toned down a lot. Not to the point of stat scaling being nonexistent (the game would have to find a different source of "progression" then), but to the point that pure-damage builds and pure-utility builds are equally viable on weapons.

Modding should be about changing a weapon's capabilities to your tastes, not mindless stat-stacking. The best way to accomplish this ideal that I can think of is with a much more subtle stat-scaling system.

Edited September 10, 2015 by SortaRandom

[Blatantfool]

 DE should pick a level cap for enemies.

 

 That may SOUND controversial, I know. "But I like the endless scaling!" I get that. It's been a fun and unique part of Warframe and it's difficulty.

 

 But at this late stage, as our arsenal grows faster and faster, we need balance more than we need that uniqueness. In fact, that uniqueness is in the way.

 

 DE ought to set a static level cap and rework ALL enemy scaling to fit smoothly into a predictable curve. That way future alterations to weapons can be done with the knowledge that DE can tune them accurately to fit in a specific place in relation to enemy power levels.

 

 In the current climate ALL guns, regardless of position in player tiering, eventually and inevitably get rendered majorly ineffective. Same with many, many skills. This is because enemy scaling is an endless upward spiral. It's time for that to change. Warframe needs to mature into a more controlled environment for both us as players and DE, who is stuck making the pieces fit.

 

 

 Until that happens I strongly feel that changes like what is being done to multishot, along with most other weapon changes, are going to do little aside from alter which weapons and mods are 'mandatory for peak effectiveness'.

 

 You can't 'fix' the problem in build variety by just attacking what effective builds are in place. You've gotta work on the reasons why we want and need things to the point that they become 'mandatory' at all.

 

 Edit: I seriously think a lot of you guys ought to start pondering this very idea. Brainstorming is best when done with others.

Edited September 10, 2015 by Blatantfool

[PookieNumnums]

What I am hoping is that weapon damage doesn't scale with rank

Because guns don't shoot harder the more you fire them.

Perhaps a mix between base stat buffs and enemy nerds...

But yah. No damage with rank please.

[peekitea]

At this point it's sounding less like Damage 3.0 or Mods 3.0 but more "Combat 3.0" (Maybe 2.0, not entirely sure)

 

I agree. I think some of melee needs to be touched up upon. There are so many weapons that could be more viable. Espeacially the ones earned from events. Like the god forsaken sheev.

[Deidaku]

What I am hoping is that weapon damage doesn't scale with rank

Because guns don't shoot harder the more you fire them.

Perhaps a mix between base stat buffs and enemy nerds...

But yah. No damage with rank please.

Agreed

that would be terrible indeed

 

I'm hoping for somehting like serration should be *in* the weapon . So you fill your gun with fusion cores to make it better. BUT it shoulnd't require as much as current serration of course. Imagin maxiing serration for every single weapon , you'd need several millions of credits and cores.

[S.T.M.P.D]

we dont need damage 3.0 we need mods 3.0 dmage system is fine aside from a few UI complaints (i want the damage of each pellet on my shotgun not the total and just tell me how many bullets will come out at a time) the fact that seration is always on and split chamber is always on is unfortunate because you could add another elemental mod or somthing fun like one of the reach mods or that melee mod that removes armor from enemys when there hit with impact damage

 

but the slots are taken up and we need to stack more damage on cause its not good enough yet, its going to be a long process and if they do actualy do that id expect to wait for U19 but im happy anything is happening cause anything that'll get people off boltors will be a good thing

I think Scaling and Damage and Modding are all big problems. I don't think you could fix this game without addressing all three at once.

[Lost_Cartographer]

Removing endless scaling would force DE to come up with some other method to eventually force players out of an endless mode.  That's what the scaling was initially supposed to do, so it was never a problem in itself per se (player mentalities however...)  Nor was armor scaling.  Armor scaling made enemies harder to kill much faster as it essentially multiplied on board health, but even without armor enemies would eventually scale up high enough in raw health that it wouldn't matter if they had armor or not.  The difference in 50 health and 300 armor and 100 health and 0 armor is found in a corrosive proc and that's it.  If anything, it isn't that armor scaling is broken, so much as armor itself is an unimaginative mechanic within Warframe that exists solely for the sake of one element's proc.

 

So unless the new limits to endless modes are ever decreasing quantities of air packs from drops and a cryopod that never heals and can not be healed but has an absurd quantity of health and a scaling shield to compensate, I'm hard pressed to believe DE will ditch endless scaling unless said scaling comes in the form of really cheap shots, like Corrupted Manic Bombard Nullifiers.  Have fun with that one, it's a doozy.  Or extending the time frame between rotations/waves in an endless mode.  Imagine if C came around at the 20 minute/wave mark, but then each round after that lasted 10 minutes/waves instead of 5?  And then after making it to rotation C again, that time is again doubled, to 20 minutes per reward...  But mostly, I doubt DE ever intended for people to hold out in endless modes for as long as they do.  Little good fixing combat damage and mods will do if the same basic mentality that is bringing these realities on modding and damage and health scaling to light is left intact.

Edited September 10, 2015 by Littleman88

[Kinetos]

If the goal is to not have endless, why not just not have endless? Example: infested outbreaks.

[Lost_Cartographer]

If the goal is to not have endless, why not just not have endless? Example: infested outbreaks.

 

In the word of the many that go that hour into a survival or defense, "challenge."

 

We're meant to eventually be booted out, no doubt, but they definitely did not want us forcibly extracted at wave/minute 20 either.  Hence infinite scaling and inevitably ridiculously absurd effective health pools and damage as a result.

Edited September 10, 2015 by Littleman88

[Kinetos]

What about nightmare? Every 20 minutes in, add a random nightmare modifier?

[Lost_Cartographer]

What about nightmare? Every 20 minutes in, add a random nightmare modifier?

 

I'd get behind that.  But then we'd hear complaints about the energy drain modifier.  No-shield is a non-issue because that reality hits players in an endless mode eventually, so they've already adapted to it.  But energy drain?  I think people would be more tolerant of eating Cheerios someone already p****ed into.  The players on this forum have not been subtle about their extreme entitlement complex and insist that smart AI and challenge can exist in the same universe where their warframe's powers literally shut down the enemy's capacity to do anything, hence why they can suirvive for as long as they do.

 

The most likely scenario to please people while still representing climbing enemy strength is probably the Manic Bombard Nullifier.  Or in other words, DE will likely do something to impede and discourage players from sticking around in a single survival/defense for 8 hours, but whatever that method, these people will be absolutely against it.  It's more of a "pick your poison" deal, and it will build into a lethal dosage eventually.

Edited September 10, 2015 by Littleman88

[shut]

What about nightmare? Every 20 minutes in, add a random nightmare modifier?

Nightmare Mode is frankly a piece of crap and the last thing I want to see happen is for it to bleed over into regular missions.

Even if RNG were not a factor, some of the Nightmare modifiers shorhorn players into specific builds in order to last more than a minute (namely, the no-shields modifier that happens in Alerts). Any shield-users are practically screwed (and mods like Redirection become completely dead slots) and Shield-using abilities lose their effect (Vex Armor, Polarize, etc), all while players like pure-melee Excals are virtually unaffected.

Not balanced. Not fun.

Edited September 10, 2015 by SortaRandom

[Lorthos_Mornin]

I disagree concerning "the horrible weapon imbalance of all new weapons" most simply haven't had their place (i.e. required mr) assigned to them yet.  I also disagree that we die too fast.  Pick any node on the star chart, you can take a few hits and by combining a few mods and abilities you can easily take quite a few and keep on trucking.  It is only rather far into endless and in the trials that tenno die quickly and that's supposed to happen at those points.

 

I do agree that the combo meter could use a second look.  It appears to be a means to help melee outperform guns at a certain point but the multiplier climb is too low for that to happen before you run out of ammo, which is where you switch to melee anyway.

[Kinetos]

Ok, not nightmare. So why doesn't DE want endless? To much loot? Every 20 minutes, reduce all drops by 50%, and slow down new life support things. Eventually, no drops. And maybe only one round of aabc rewards. Players could go on if they want more challenges, but getting less loot.

Edited September 10, 2015 by KinetosImpetus

[Lost_Cartographer]

Ok, not nightmare. So why doesn't DE want endless? To much loot? Every 20 minutes, reduce all drops by 50%, and slow down new life support things. Eventually, no drops. And maybe only one round of aabc rewards. Players could go on if they want more challenges, but getting less loot.

DE doesn't want endless because feeding too many items via a single key is bad for business, not to mention it encourages and allows really bad player behavior that simply leads to burn out, which is also no bueno for business.  Players need to be protected from the themselves in a game like Warframe where they're gallivanting through a field of carrots and just don't know when or even how to apply the brakes.

[Thumper3]

 

 Until that happens I strongly feel that changes like what is being done to multishot, along with most other weapon changes, are going to do little aside from alter which weapons and mods are 'mandatory for peak effectiveness'.

 

 You can't 'fix' the problem in build variety by just attacking what effective builds are in place. You've gotta work on the reasons why we want and need things to the point that they become 'mandatory' at all.

 

Thank you!

 

This is what I have been saying.  You can't attack the "mandatory" mods and weapons, if you make them no good something else will then become the best thing ever and then that will be mandatory.

 

I have no golden idea that will solve that, but yes, need to talk about the problem not the symptom. 

[Lightsmith]

Warframe Infinity.0

This isn't new, just like when they talked about removing direct damage mods. This will likely be shelved. There is to much work to be done on it if they want to tweek one mod. Plus its stupid to change multishot so, "its not something every one uses," but leave in serration and the like.

Most weapons have key mods you have to use look at the Soma or Grak, build those without critical mods and see how you do.

As it currently stands the only versatility of mods is between weapons. Most weapons have 5+ mods everyone puts on them with a few others swapping.

Warframes are a little better since there is defense mods or skill mods.

Overall the whole mod system needs to be reworked so all mods have gains and losses. At the same time weapons need to be improved due to the change and enemies being rebalanced.

In the end the multishot change will be put into a large project that won't be complete until this time next year.

Edited September 10, 2015 by Lightsmith

[Nolla]

Mastery Rank has long been over looked. Maybe Weapon scaling should increase with Mastery Rank, this includes all weapons - primary, secondary, melee, everything. Thus it pays for you to rank up your mastery as you do more damage and can survive longer.

 

Masterying every weapon in the game must have some benefits?

[Lightsmith]

Mastery Rank has long been over looked. Maybe Weapon scaling should increase with Mastery Rank, this includes all weapons - primary, secondary, melee, everything. Thus it pays for you to rank up your mastery as you do more damage and can survive longer.

 

Masterying every weapon in the game must have some benefits?

you're saying MR as a whole should do it? No, that means anyone new will have to grind every weapon up to be useful. Also Founders and players with event weapons will always be stronger

[Kinetos]

Focus System?

[S.T.M.P.D]

In the word of the many that go that hour into a survival or defense, "challenge."

 

We're meant to eventually be booted out, no doubt, but they definitely did not want us forcibly extracted at wave/minute 20 either.  Hence infinite scaling and inevitably ridiculously absurd effective health pools and damage as a result.

I proposed a thread wherein enemies get little RNG based Perks like under-barrel grenade launchers, and that the likeliness of a perk occuring would scale up per level, and then at some high level everyone would have all the crazy perks all the time, kinda like KF2. Howzat?