Let's Talk Trinity

[Attel_Malagate]

It's actually the most relevant now because they need to take trinity's overpowered kit into consideration. This discussion helps in pointing out all the problems that trinity brings. Like removing the energy costs from the game. 

 

Also "Olololol I'm so D4rK I'm so elitist XDDDD" is the toxic garbage I was talking about. Blatantly trying to instigate people. 

Still, you are trying to solve an equation with said seting while you know that thoose setings will change soon, it is pointless, what looks "OP" to YOU (as about75% or the replies are telling you otherwise) may not be in the near future.

[Kolos1001]

Still, you are trying to solve an equation with said seting while you know that thoose setings will change soon, it is pointless, what looks "OP" to YOU (as about75% or the replies are telling you otherwise) may not be in the near future.

Good thing changes are not a democracy based on forum users. 

 

No one is trying to solve an equation. I'm pointing out what is currently breaking the game. Infinite energy for the entire team and 99% damage reduction making the vast majority of the game irrelevant. 

 

Those two issues need to be addressed in the update. 

[Cleesus]

Alright we are going to give it one more go. The forums is not a place for attacking each other and bickering. Anymore of that and enjoy warn

[Chroia]

Honestly I don't care about the WoL/EV combo, because it's possibly the least efficient way to kill something even with high armor scaling. I have no idea why it's even a point.

Agreed. I addressed it to preempt 'your analysis is invalid because you didn't say anything about X'.

EV having a "limited" range is a bit misleading. The base range of EV is 35m. Stretch alone puts this up to 50 or so.

Unless I'm mistaken, EV's base range is 25 meters. Stretch puts that at ~36.

Granted, that's on the high end of 'average range', but it is "normal".

Further, yes - it's on the high end, which is fine/might be excessive if Warframe were purely a corridor shooter, but there are common hub-tiles that are more than twice that length.

And this is assuming that the whole team's in the same tile - vs. spread out.

What point are we balancing for, here? It kinda matters. What game mode?

Balancing EV for mid-modded players in a non-endless on the star chart is a rather different balance point than balancing for 30+ minutes/waves into any endless.

Also, range as a limiting factor is one of the reasons that people camp. Probably/possibly not a primary one, but it's there.

It also doesn't just provide energy, it provides excessive amounts of energy. Even without Blind Rage, which gets it's downside rendered irrelevant because you make more energy than you lose, you can get upwards of 60 energy per tick, for the entire team. More if you shoot the enemy before the timer runs down.

EV gives a base of 25 energy per tick.

With just a maxed Intensify and Transient Fortitude (i.e. no eff malus, no mod slot for r2 Blind Rage) that's 46.25 energy per tick. With an R2 BR that's still only ~53 energy.

Blind Rage's malus may be countered on EV, but it still hits your other skills and Quick Thinking.

Which, if you're running a non-min-duration build, means self-damage costs you more energy -> More EV recasts to recoup the lost energy -> more 'upkeep' time/less 'why yes, I am playing.

See next.

Killing an EV'ed enemy doesn't make it release more energy, which I assume you know.

So I assume you're talking about energy/sec.

I'll grant you that, but it merely means that recasting EV just got bumped on your Trin's schedule. You're still trading a player for resources.

1) Even when you run negative efficiency like I do, that's a lot of energy that you can keep up for quite a while. 2) It does not "require" low duration; it's better with low duration. That isn't the same thing. 3) It doesn't need to be minmaxed to oblivion to trivialize the energy system, and even then, it would STILL trivialize the energy system. It really doesn't matter how hard it is to break something, the point is that it's broken.

1) Agreed. In a void, where you can afford to do nothing but generate energy, and have no concern about doing damage, avoiding incoming damage, buff upkeep or antimagic units.

*shrug*

The question remains: What is the balance point?

2) I did not, anywhere, say it requires a negative duration build.

I specifically said 'best results', and I specifically noted that it can be done with positive duration, how to do it, and what problems you run into (recap: More things to juggle, requires that you quickly kill an enemy; which is trivially easy where the game's trivially easy and much less so when scaling starts creeping up - which is where you want the 'infinite' energy available).

So, what exactly is your issue here?

3) * It doesn't need to be minmaxed. It needs to be in content under a certain level.

* It trivializes energy in a coordinated group.

* I disagree: If something's broken, it's broken. But why does it not matter how hard it is to break?

How is 'primary weapons ignore Nullifier bubbles' the same as 'Buzlok shots homing in on a tracker ignore Nullifier bubbles'?

Heck, why did you discount WoL+EV at the start of your post?

Am I missing something here?

As for Blessing, come on. Needing a specific weapon to do it isn't really a downside. Lots of weapons can kill YOU and loads of enemies too.

You're misrepresenting.

The weapon needs to fit several criteria:

Can hurt you enough, fast enough.

Won't (accidentally) kill you doing it.

Won't drain all your energy doing it.

All the above need to happen reliably.

Also being able to kill enemies is a plus.

Let's review: Weapons that cause self-damage.

* Any Power Throw thrown melee.

* Thunderbolt bows: Low chance, low damage = unreliable.

* Concealed Explosives thrown secondaries: YMMV.

* Stug: YMMV, possibly fast enough, possibly not.

* Tonkor: fails at applying sufficient self-damage.

* Secura/Penta: Requires Link to both kill enemies and not kill you.

* Ogris: Requires Link to both kill enemies and not kill you.

* Sancti/Sactanas: This is probably good (Haven't used since the change to sniper ammo; so don't know), but sniper ammo.

* Angstrum/Kulstar: Requires Link to both kill enemies and not kill you.

- Did I miss any?

I'll grant you that that's not "3 options".

But the entire list is still less than 10% of the total available weapons, and the (imo) good options either require Link (which is a tradeoff since, as per my previous post, it can mess with your Blessing), or drop off sooner.

Which leaves you with distinctly less options.

Requiring skill to do it? Not really a limitingfactor, is it? Some people can do it, some can't, but that doesn't change anything about the ability itself.

I don't think that 'skill' is the right word.

It's attention. It's focus. It's tracking (all the balls you have in the air). It really is a lot like juggling.

And yes, it's certainly a limiting factor.

To roll with the juggling metaphor:

Not everyone can juggle equally well, untrained.

Not everyone can juggle equally well, with training.

Not everyone can juggle the same amount of simultaneous objects.

etc.

But your ability isn't static. It improves with use. It improves with focus ('in the zone'-ness).

You know, 'skill' may actually not be as bad a word for it as I initially thought.

'Doesn't change anything about the skill itself' - You're right, it doesn't.

But skills requiring greater player skill (or 'skill') are certainly should certainly be balanced on a different scale from skills that aren't.

Case in point: The recent Peacemaker change.

Alternatively, will you tell me that the damage increases from Total Eclipse, M Prime, Roar, Accelerant, etc. are no different from Sonar?

1) And even if everything you said is true, is 99% damage reduction really something we want or need in Warframe? 2) Because eventually, DE is going to HAVE to balance around it. 3) How would you balance around an enemy doing 99% less damage than it should?

2a) Not really. At a character level where Trinity frame abilities can break the game, most of the supported game (read: Star chart levels, and up to Rot C in endless) is statistically easy enough to not require 99% DR. (Partially, but nowhere near entirely, due to Energy being a non-limit at that point.)

2b) Too late, they already do. See: Raids. See: Hard counter enemies.

That said:

1) Whether it's something we need in Warframe? I'd rather it not be.

Whether it's something we want in Warframe? Depends what you're asking.

For the health of the game? Definitely not.

For Rule of Cool/power-trip gaming? Certainly.

3) Note that in all the following I'm using 'level' conceptually, not game-term literally.

Start from deciding on a 'greatest difficulty' balance point.

Continue with deciding A) how open vs. tiered you want your game to be:

Do you want (to incentivize) your max level players playing in lower-than-max level content?

B) Where will your game stand, on a 'player skill <-> gear power' scale?

- How steep is the power curve? How well should a skilled newbie be able to manage in mid level content? High level content? Same for mid-level players. Also, how trivial should a high level character find (varyingly) lower level content.

C) Subsequently, decide on the maximum character-power growth from 0 to max.

e.g., broadly speaking:

Unranked frame vs. Unranked frame with maxed Vitality -> x5.4 HP.

Unmodded weapon vs. Same weapon with maxed Serration -> x2.65 damage output.

Unranked frame + unmodded weapon vs. unranked frame with maxed Vitality + same weapon with maxed Serration -> x14 power growth.

Once you have that, just make sure everything else falls in line.

[alergiclaprosti]

Well of life:Used with energy vampire can kill almost anything in the game regardless of level. Exceptions include bosses, juggernauts, manics, nullifiers and things like that

 

Link:75% damage reduction(Equal to about 900 armor), CC invulnerability, Reflects damage.

 

Blessing: up to 99% damage reduction for the entire team. Heals entire team/companions and fully restores shields. 

 

 

If you say it's so powerfull that it kills enemies regardless of level, why don't you go do that?

 

Oh ... is it because if you decrease power duration to the point at which your WoL + EV becomes relevant, you will not be able to benefit from the 75% damage reduction from Link or 99% damage reduction from Blessing?

 

Even if you decrease the duration at that point, your killing time, for one target, is around 1 second. Killing one target per second while being completely naked against damage doesn't feel that OP to me. Ash can kill more than one taregt per second with Teleport + melee (also not caring of level) all from the cover of stealth.

 

Please stop spreading rumored OP tactics that you never tried, or if you tried them, you didn't do it solo.

 

Yes, Trinity is the most resistent frame in the game and can make all the party invulnerable to damage but she can't kill large crouds of enemies like Nova.

 

Yes, you can kill enemies of any level, but by using your weapons in conjunction with Abating Link and lots of Power Strength. You do this by killing them one by one (targeting the ones linked with you) while staying protected at all times by you other skills. The moment that protection is not up, in late game, any stray bullet will kill you.

 

I rarely play Trinity, it's the first frame I built after the free one, a long time ago. With the build I made, I feel realy OP, but that's carefull theory crafting and timers/energy management. In my opinion, what you call OP I call "a very bad build". Oh yes ..... my Trinity functions with or without a team.

 

So no .... let's not start the nerfs with Trinity,  let's do that with Loki first.

Edited October 12, 2015 by alergiclaprosti

[TheBrsrkr]

Alternatively, will you tell me that the damage increases from Total Eclipse, M Prime, Roar, Accelerant, etc. are no different from Sonar?

I don't see where I did. They are all different and effective in their own way, but none of them render your entire team nigh invincible. Also, Sonar is kind of broken. I mean, TE Mirage gives you a crapload of damage, but in a 5m range. M Prime is broken as hell. Roar is a lot weaker than the others,but lasts for a long time, and Accelerant..... doesn't it only work for fire damage? Sonar gives you literal millions of damage, which is quite ridiculous when enemy EHP is in the tens of thousands hours into the hardest game modes.

2a) Not really. At a character level where Trinity frame abilities can break the game, most of the supported game (read: Star chart levels, and up to Rot C in endless) is statistically easy enough to not require 99% DR. (Partially, but nowhere near entirely, due to Energy being a non-limit at that point.)

Then why must it stay? The suggestions were to take it down to 90%, since it's a team DR unlike others with personal DR. Would that really be so bad?

2b) Too late, they already do. See: Raids. See: Hard counter enemies.

Can you call these things enjoyable,fun and challenging? I can't. Hard counters are the worst way to balance anything, but they are necessary since anything else would be ineffective. But all that does is make powers a liability. I'd rather not let cheesy mechanics be the baseline of what DE balances around.

That said:

1) Whether it's something we need in Warframe? I'd rather it not be.

Whether it's something we want in Warframe? Depends what you're asking.

For the health of the game? Definitely not.

For Rule of Cool/power-trip gaming? Certainly.

I'm asking for the longevity of Warframe, not because I like going to lvl 200 and tickling enemies that can't tickle back.

3)

You skipped 2.

3) Note that in all the following I'm using 'level' conceptually, not game-term literally.

Start from deciding on a 'greatest difficulty' balance point.

Continue with deciding A) how open vs. tiered you want your game to be:

Do you want (to incentivize) your max level players playing in lower-than-max level content?

B) Where will your game stand, on a 'player skill <-> gear power' scale?

- How steep is the power curve? How well should a skilled newbie be able to manage in mid level content? High level content? Same for mid-level players. Also, how trivial should a high level character find (varyingly) lower level content.

C) Subsequently, decide on the maximum character-power growth from 0 to max.

e.g., broadly speaking:

Unranked frame vs. Unranked frame with maxed Vitality -> x5.4 HP.

Unmodded weapon vs. Same weapon with maxed Serration -> x2.65 damage output.

Unranked frame + unmodded weapon vs. unranked frame with maxed Vitality + same weapon with maxed Serration -> x14 power growth.

Once you have that, just make sure everything else falls in line.

You're preaching to the choir at this point.

Wow.

More than half my post just disappeared. Bummer.

Edited October 12, 2015 by TheBrsrkr

[Chroia]

Wow.

More than half my post just disappeared. Bummer.

I empathize.

:(

I don't see where I did. They are all different and effective in their own way, but none of them render your entire team nigh invincible.

Maybe I misunderstood what you're say. Maybe I wasn't clear enough.

Let me try again:

Comparing a 'no brainer' godmode, a la OG Blessing, to blanket damage increases;

to something that requires some investment of effort on the player's part, i.e. current Blessing, like Sonar, which, to have any effect, requires that the player shoot the glow-y spots.

A bad example, perhaps, but the best I could come up with on the spot.

I understood you to be saying 'some people can do it, some people can't - makes no difference how hard something is to put to use, if anything can break the game then the game is irretrievably broken'.

Edit:

Also, why is Sonar so much more powerful than the 'blanket' options? Because it's not a 'blanket' option.

Which is what I'm saying.

Also, Sonar is kind of broken. I mean, TE Mirage gives you a crapload of damage, but in a 5m range. M Prime is broken as hell. Roar is a lot weaker than the others,but lasts for a long time, and Accelerant..... doesn't it only work for fire damage? Sonar gives you literal millions of damage, which is quite ridiculous when enemy EHP is in the tens of thousands hours into the hardest game modes.

All of them are some kind of % increase. Which, with how scaling works, means they're ludicrous overkill or negligible.

And no, Sonar doesn't give you 'millions of damage'. It gives you a conditional percentage increase.

That said: Overkill? Usually.

Then why must it stay?

It doesn't, inherently.

The suggestions were to take it down to 90%, since it's a team DR unlike others with personal DR. Would that really be so bad?

In itself, probably not. However, that looks a lot like a slippery slope.

Can you call these things enjoyable,fun and challenging? I can't. Hard counters are the worst way to balance anything, but they are necessary since anything else would be ineffective. But all that does is make powers a liability. I'd rather not let cheesy mechanics be the baseline of what DE balances around.

Preaching to the choir, indeed.

I'm asking for the longevity of Warframe, not because I like going to lvl 200 and tickling enemies that can't tickle back.

Fair enough. You have my answer.

You skipped 2.

I didn't, I just answered it before #1. :) Edited October 12, 2015 by Chroia

[-dicht.Amducias-]

I don't see where I did. They are all different and effective in their own way, but none of them render your entire team nigh invincible. Also, Sonar is kind of broken. I mean, TE Mirage gives you a crapload of damage, but in a 5m range. M Prime is broken as hell. Roar is a lot weaker than the others,but lasts for a long time, and Accelerant..... doesn't it only work for fire damage? Sonar gives you literal millions of damage, which is quite ridiculous when enemy EHP is in the tens of thousands hours into the hardest game modes.

Then why must it stay? The suggestions were to take it down to 90%, since it's a team DR unlike others with personal DR. Would that really be so bad?

Can you call these things enjoyable,fun and challenging? I can't. Hard counters are the worst way to balance anything, but they are necessary since anything else would be ineffective. But all that does is make powers a liability. I'd rather not let cheesy mechanics be the baseline of what DE balances around.

I'm asking for the longevity of Warframe, not because I like going to lvl 200 and tickling enemies that can't tickle back.

You skipped 2.

You're preaching to the choir at this point.

Wow.

More than half my post just disappeared. Bummer.

Why the F*** everyone tells Trinity makes your team invincible? It is NOT true. Do 60min or longer of Palus Survival and your blessing will be the only way to keep up a bit even with the 99% you get rekt by corpus techs in near no time

[-CM-Hekovashi]

Just close this topic, this is clearly lead to nothing constructive due to op attitude and people just repeats same arguments over and over

[TheBrsrkr]

@W4ve:

Yes, if I take frame A to arbitrary point B with weapon C, it's not going to perform as it did 10 minutes before that point. But this is only possible due to the levels of anti cheese exponentially raising after that point. Because they cheese harder than you. Not to mention that 40 or so minutes before that point would probably bore you to tears. That is not the type of gameplay that should be encouraged, yet some actively encourage it.

I edited instead of quoting by mistake.

[Volinus7]

Invisibility trivialize all of the game content spy included my loki and ash can sustain it indefinitely.

It's far more than blessing.

Frost Globe trivialize defense as well.

Trinity blessing is risky QT can stunlock you.

 

EV only give energy. Mostly only two types of players has problem with "not enough energy".

1.Nuke Spammer [Without 4CP you cannot nuke in high lvl content. CP trivialize the game?]

2.Someone who doesn't know how to build a sustainable build

Even without EV support from my teammate I can run all frames without running out of energy.

 

If you think healing and energy support are trivializing the game and you are supposed to run around finding health orbs.

Rage trivialize the game

Oberon renewal trivialize the game

LifeStrike trivialize the game

Regenerative Molt trivialize the game

Mend trivialize the game

Wind of Purity trivialize the game

Curative undertow trivialize the game

 

The most important asset of warframe is not buff or healing, It's CC. Warframe-esque is pouring a ton of enemies on you if you don't have CC you get swarmed, cannot protect the objectives or interception points.

Nyx can trivialize all enemies at almost global range

Mirage and Excalibur can do the same with damage bonus

Frost and Nova can slow enemies to almost stop.

Radial Disarm trivialize all enemies permanently and spammable.

Trinity doesn't have any CC.

 

 

Do they actually trivialize the game? in my opinion, NO.

 

 

Your reasons that said Trinity is overpowered are invalid because every frame has that aspect as well as their own weakness when you contrast it with other frames.

 

If your standard is high nothing is overpowered, no nerfs needed.

 

 

 

BTW. Loki is the frame that has the highest amount of trivialized contents not Trinity.

Superman is so strong lets nerf him until he's a normal homo sapiens< this is the kind of logic of every nerf-talk.

Edited October 12, 2015 by Volinus7

[KiraPlaga]

I think Trinity is too powerful right now, in terms of having a monopoly on instant useful healing and energy giving. But I also think that's perfectly okay, because of how little people use her unless they 'have' to for missions. She's so unpopular, that her OPness is perfectly okay in the current state of the game. Why is she not very popular despite being so damned useful and powerful?

 

She's boring as hell to play. That's my theory anyways, the only reason I don't play her and why I see so few people playing her unless they're ordered to play her for a mission, like Nekros for survivals. I absolutely love healers in all games I play, but Trinity takes the cake for most boring and passive support/healer for me.

 

(Before Trinity mains harp on me, I know you love her. I know you think she's fun as hell, that's your personal opinion and that's aweosme. But every single frame has die hard fans that find their frame the best and funnest, while the majority maybe disagrees.)

Edited October 12, 2015 by KiraPlaga

[Sakatchi]

Well of life:Used with energy vampire can kill almost anything in the game regardless of level. Exceptions include bosses, juggernauts, manics, nullifiers and things like that

 

Energy vampire:Supplies entire team(Including herself making her entire kit infinitely sustainable as long as there are enemies) with infinite energy. Single target CC. Armor ignoring damage. With mods can overshield team. 

 

Link:75% damage reduction(Equal to about 900 armor), CC invulnerability, Reflects damage.

 

Blessing: up to 99% damage reduction for the entire team. Heals entire team/companions and fully restores shields. 

 

So we have 

 

Infinite energy for entire team

Autokill nearly anything in the game regardless of level

immune to CC

Nearly immune to damage

Makes entire team nearly immune to damage

 

Now. If we are going to talk about nerfing something that breaks the game...Let's start with trinity. 

 

In what world is one of the few healers being strong enough to take care of herself and her team a bad thing?

 

You seem to be more of the competitive type, maybe you ought to return to Modern War field battle fighters 5

[Viper1991]

Well of life:Used with energy vampire can kill almost anything in the game regardless of level. Exceptions include bosses, juggernauts, manics, nullifiers and things like that

 

Energy vampire:Supplies entire team(Including herself making her entire kit infinitely sustainable as long as there are enemies) with infinite energy. Single target CC. Armor ignoring damage. With mods can overshield team. 

 

Link:75% damage reduction(Equal to about 900 armor), CC invulnerability, Reflects damage.

 

Blessing: up to 99% damage reduction for the entire team. Heals entire team/companions and fully restores shields. 

 

So we have 

 

Infinite energy for entire team

Autokill nearly anything in the game regardless of level

immune to CC

Nearly immune to damage

Makes entire team nearly immune to damage

 

Now. If we are going to talk about nerfing something that breaks the game...Let's start with trinity. 

Like other people have said 1-2 combo works only on a negative duration build and casting 1 and 2 freezes you in one spot for a second or so. A lvl 80 mob will one shot you since link and blessing last for about 2-3 seconds 

 

Her Tank build is basically a high duration build and that gimps her WoL. Ev target now needs to be killed to get any energy  back otherwise it will take around a minute to gain the energy. 

 

Her Damage build leaves her extremely fragile , Her survival build means she cant do the 1-2 combo . Fair trade off in my opinion. 

[DelialFallen]

I think Trinity is too powerful right now, in terms of having a monopoly on instant useful healing and energy giving. But I also think that's perfectly okay, because of how little people use her unless they 'have' to for missions. She's so unpopular, that her OPness is perfectly okay in the current state of the game. Why is she not very popular despite being so damned useful and powerful?

 

She's boring as hell to play. That's my theory anyways, the only reason I don't play her and why I see so few people playing her unless they're ordered to play her for a mission, like Nekros for survivals. I absolutely love healers in all games I play, but Trinity takes the cake for most boring and passive support/healer for me.

 

(Before Trinity mains harp on me, I know you love her. I know you think she's fun as hell, that's your personal opinion and that's aweosme. But every single frame has die hard fans that find their frame the best and funnest, while the majority maybe disagrees.)

 

Trinity's gameplay has a lot to do with micro management and requires a bit more situational awareness than most other Warframes do.  It's in my experience a very busy game play, and isn't necessarily 'satisfying' as other Warframes to some players due to being primarily concerned with support rather than damage.

 

It is my opinion that these things contribute to making Trinity 'balanced' relative to the relation between effort and payoff.  There's exception to this, of course: one can simply self-farm and Bless ad nauseum.  It can be argued that aspect does not require nearly as much micro management, situational awareness and skill.  Perhaps the crux of it all lies within self harm mechanics and how Trinity turns what is essentially a disadvantage into an advantage.  Yet I catch myself thinking about how it is that very management and redistribution of 'harm' is fundamental to her gameplay -- or, at least, what makes her so interesting to me personally.

 

Perhaps the perception of Trinity's power relates directly to the game's mechanics and how forma and mods allow for sizable leaps forward where power and effectiveness are concerned.  Yet, is that not what 'progression' is meant to accomplish?  An increase in effectiveness and performance of powers, abilities and weapons?  Rhetorical questions, obviously.

 

At any rate, I'm not convinced it requires change in of itself as it does seem on par with the game's design and direction: activity leading to the increase and improvement of gear.  Certainly, in another context or in a vaccum one can conclude the sort of toolkit Trinity commands is possibly of the most powerful sort and that power may need to be diluted in some respects.  That, however, does not feel to me as being something which immediately concerns Warframe in its current state.

[izzatuw]

You realize blessing trivializes the vast majority of the game right?

Entire star chart

All void missions outside endless

Raids

Boss battles

nightmare mode

Endless missions up to 2 hours.

So basically blessing makes 99% of the game trivial. Which is why they nerfed blessing in the first place.

I recently was able to tank raid manics with a loki frame because of blessing.

The problem is not enemy scaling the problem is it takes 2 hours in an endless mission for there to be any challenge because blessing is so broken.

Don't think I'm bashing you but I suspect you don't have enough experience to consider her being capable of clearing endless void missions "easily". Her lacking any real CC makes it pretty difficult for her to solo defense missions.

Boss Battles hardly require a Warframe's ability, just take a relatively strong weapon. Can you really tell me she's capable of cheesing Vay Hek alone when most abilities don't work well against him?

Tbh Rhino's probably better than Trinity if you wanna run nightmare missions depending on which one, a Rhino can use Iron Skin a couple of times if he were to enter energy leech mode. Not lose health if it's no shields.

By the time you reach 2 hours on any planet the enemies would kill you in one shot regardless of your stats and even if you did use a tactic like Glaive self damage+Blessing it'd take you a few seconds. The enemies will have a pretty wide window of opportunity to down one or two of your allies if they get too careless.

[-CM-Hekovashi]

I think Trinity is too powerful right now, in terms of having a monopoly on instant useful healing and energy giving. But I also think that's perfectly okay, because of how little people use her unless they 'have' to for missions. She's so unpopular, that her OPness is perfectly okay in the current state of the game. Why is she not very popular despite being so damned useful and powerful?

 

She's boring as hell to play. That's my theory anyways, the only reason I don't play her and why I see so few people playing her unless they're ordered to play her for a mission, like Nekros for survivals. I absolutely love healers in all games I play, but Trinity takes the cake for most boring and passive support/healer for me.

 

(Before Trinity mains harp on me, I know you love her. I know you think she's fun as hell, that's your personal opinion and that's aweosme. But every single frame has die hard fans that find their frame the best and funnest, while the majority maybe disagrees.)

When i play trin i play tanky one, and i always have something to do-check out link cd, mate health, watch energy pool and even my is full and il see a mate passing by-il cast ev to help him. My main is nyx and She is really boring to play-you just cast 3 and then shot guys while they busy killing each other, thats it. Still loves her tho

[izzatuw]

I just realized the OP is wrong about Blessing restoring all shields and health. It can do that if there is a strength mod but I recall my Blessing still having a bit of shield left to restore after casting it.

[izzatuw]

The problem is blessing along with EV are on the same level as a game exploit.

That's why they nerfed pull

That's why they introduced nullifiers

That's why they nerfed pull again

I'm guessing that's why they nerfed mesa

Afaik they nerfed Pull and than Greedy Pull. They're pretty different.

The reason they nerfed Mesa was blatant enough wasn't it? You just sat someone and held the shoot button stop for a second to regain energy, repeat.

And guess what? If a Mag had G-Pull prenerf the Mesa didn't even need to stop cause the Mag would be capable of restoring the Mesa's energy.

[Kolos1001]

I just realized the OP is wrong about Blessing restoring all shields and health. It can do that if there is a strength mod but I recall my Blessing still having a bit of shield left to restore after casting it.

While you are correct that blessing only restores 80% of health and shields without any power mods. The damage reduction still goes up to 99% which is the main issue. 

 

Don't think I'm bashing you but I suspect you don't have enough experience to consider her being capable of clearing endless void missions "easily". Her lacking any real CC makes it pretty difficult for her to solo defense missions.

Boss Battles hardly require a Warframe's ability, just take a relatively strong weapon. Can you really tell me she's capable of cheesing Vay Hek alone when most abilities don't work well against him?

Tbh Rhino's probably better than Trinity if you wanna run nightmare missions depending on which one, a Rhino can use Iron Skin a couple of times if he were to enter energy leech mode. Not lose health if it's no shields.

By the time you reach 2 hours on any planet the enemies would kill you in one shot regardless of your stats and even if you did use a tactic like Glaive self damage+Blessing it'd take you a few seconds. The enemies will have a pretty wide window of opportunity to down one or two of your allies if they get too careless.

The problem has never been her solo game. The problem is that she allows the entire team to cast without any cost and keep them all at 99% damage reduction indefinitely. She is very much a support frame. But when she's in a team she removes one of the most basic things in the game...energy. All abilities are built on the idea that there is a cost for using them. Which is why the most powerful generally cost the most. Take that away and you break what the game is built on. 

 

One suggestion would make it so that EV does not restore trinity's energy. That way she couldn't sustain her entire kit indefinitely. If that change happened I think the UI would have to display ally energy levels in order for her to actually choose when to cast it...instead of autocasting it on recharge like she does now. 

 

And like I have said before you can't balance around people making mistakes. Sure if you play the game horribly it's a lot harder but that's not really relevant here. It's very easy to notice when blessing is going to run out thanks to the UI. You just stop facetanking everything and start using your mobility like you're supposed to in the first place until blessing comes back in a second. 

 

Even if an ally does die it's easy to revive them with that much damage reduction and infinite energy to deal with surrounding mobs. 

Edited October 12, 2015 by Kolos1001

[izzatuw]

While you are correct that blessing only restores 80% of health and shields without any power mods. The damage reduction still goes up to 99% which is the main issue.

The problem has never been her solo game. The problem is that she allows the entire team to cast without any cost and keep them all at 99% damage reduction indefinitely. She is very much a support frame. But when she's in a team she removes one of the most basic things in the game...energy. All abilities are built on the idea that there is a cost for using them. Which is why the most powerful generally cost the most. Take that away and you break what the game is built on.

One suggestion would make it so that EV does not restore trinity's energy. That way she couldn't sustain her entire kit indefinitely. If that change happened I think the UI would have to display ally energy levels in order for her to actually choose when to cast it...instead of autocasting it on recharge like she does now.

And like I have said before you can't balance around people making mistakes. Sure if you play the game horribly it's a lot harder but that's not really relevant here. It's very easy to notice when blessing is going to run out thanks to the UI. You just stop facetanking everything and start using your mobility like you're supposed to in the first place until blessing comes back in a second.

Even if an ally does die it's easy to revive them with that much damage reduction and infinite energy to deal with surrounding mobs.

2. That would make EV stupidly useless in solo play, people don't use Haven because it only heals teammates and Safeguard Switch because it only gives invulnerability to the teammate.

Blessing comes back in a second can only be gained by facetanking for a few seconds. Don't fool around. Self inflicting damage with Glaive is the most efficient way but it's also a slow way which takes about 3-5 seconds. By than a Bombard what drop someone, a nully would shoot someone and one person would die. Using a Penta or another self inflict weapon might kill you if done wrong.

Again?

You can't have both 20+ seconds Blessing and an EV that constantly gives waves of energy in 5 seconds on the same build. If you run the EV build your Blessing will last 3 seconds... If you run the Blessing build you'd have to wait for each pulse in a long period.

Don't try to argue with "oh we can have more than one Trin"

Tell me one meta that requires 2 Trins? Or even one squad that prefers 2 Trins? No. People want 1 Trin, 1 this, 1 that and another frame. I have never had a pre-planned squad require 2 Trins, never, I'm not talking about those 2 hour survival camp strategy squads, I'm talking about a normal squad you create with your friends and have fun with.

[DelialFallen]

While you are correct that blessing only restores 80% of health and shields without any power mods. The damage reduction still goes up to 99% which is the main issue. 

 

The problem has never been her solo game. The problem is that she allows the entire team to cast without any cost and keep them all at 99% damage reduction indefinitely. She is very much a support frame. But when she's in a team she removes one of the most basic things in the game...energy. All abilities are built on the idea that there is a cost for using them. Which is why the most powerful generally cost the most. Take that away and you break what the game is built on. 

 

One suggestion would make it so that EV does not restore trinity's energy. That way she couldn't sustain her entire kit indefinitely. 

 

I'm not convinced the particular mechanics of Trinity's toolkit 'break what the game is built on', mostly due to the game designers deigned it fitting to build upon the game with a power set which includes a group energy restoration mechanic.  I'm sure we can disagree with that design decision, but it wouldn't be entirely correct to word it the way you have.

 

Regarding your suggestion that EV ought perhaps not replenish Trinity's own energy reserves, I find the concept to be rather difficult to make sense of given how the ebb of energy of the affected target blooms outwardly and the ripples it creates represent the zone in which Frames get a return of energy.  One would have to struggle in making sense of how it does not affect Trinity herself -- although I'm sure it's a minor detail and could plausibly be modified to reflect the change.

 

I believe, though, that the change would severely interfere with Trinity's ability to make use of her toolkit and plausibly render her oddly defenseless and ill equipped to effectively provide group support.  At best, her role in group dynamics would become minor and plausibly dismissable in favor of energy restoring plates.

[Kolos1001]

2. That would make EV stupidly useless in solo play, people don't use Haven because it only heals teammates and Safeguard Switch because it only gives invulnerability to the teammate.

Blessing comes back in a second can only be gained by facetanking for a few seconds. Don't fool around. Self inflicting damage with Glaive is the most efficient way but it's also a slow way which takes about 3-5 seconds. By than a Bombard what drop someone, a nully would shoot someone and one person would die. Using a Penta or another self inflict weapon might kill you if done wrong.

Again?

You can't have both 20+ seconds Blessing and an EV that constantly gives waves of energy in 5 seconds on the same build. If you run the EV build your Blessing will last 3 seconds... If you run the Blessing build you'd have to wait for each pulse in a long period.

Don't try to argue with "oh we can have more than one Trin"

Tell me one meta that requires 2 Trins? Or even one squad that prefers 2 Trins? No. People want 1 Trin, 1 this, 1 that and another frame. I have never had a pre-planned squad require 2 Trins, never, I'm not talking about those 2 hour survival camp strategy squads, I'm talking about a normal squad you create with your friends and have fun with.

She's a support frame right? Wouldn't performing worse in a solo setting be obvious? 

 

Again you go back to "If you do it wrong" That could be applied to anything. If you miss all your shots and run out of ammo you're pretty screwed. Does that mean there should be inf ammo because it's possible you could mess up? No. That argument is not valid. 

 

Every raid I've been in has had 2 trins. One blessing one EV. It's actually worse to kill enemies at that point which is very silly imo. 

 

Not all trinity builds need to be hyper specialized. That is done because the majority of the game is made pointless with either one. 

 

I'm not convinced the particular mechanics of Trinity's toolkit 'break what the game is built on', mostly due to the game designers deigned it fitting to build upon the game with a power set which includes a group energy restoration mechanic.  I'm sure we can disagree with that design decision, but it wouldn't be entirely correct to word it the way you have.

 

Regarding your suggestion that EV ought perhaps not replenish Trinity's own energy reserves, I find the concept to be rather difficult to make sense of given how the ebb of energy of the affected target blooms outwardly and the ripples it creates represent the zone in which Frames get a return of energy.  One would have to struggle in making sense of how it does not affect Trinity herself -- although I'm sure it's a minor detail and could plausibly be modified to reflect the change.

 

I believe, though, that the change would severely interfere with Trinity's ability to make use of her toolkit and plausibly render her oddly defenseless and ill equipped to effectively provide group support.  At best, her role in group dynamics would become minor and plausibly dismissable in favor of energy restoring plates.

The range of EV is much much larger than consumables. Also consumables...by definition...has a cost. EV refunds that cost instantly and effectively has no cost as soon as you cast it. That's the problem. 

 

As for the logic behind how skills work...It's space magic it doesn't have to make sense. I'm only talking about mechanics. I'll leave the art and animation stuff to others because I have no experience with that. 

 

Again consumables have an extremely small range and you have to open up a menu and make sure everyone is on top of eachother for them to work like EV does. Also you have to build them constantly which does drain resources. 

 

Restoring energy to the rest of the team and having healing+damage reduction is very effective group support. She just wouldn't be able to do this things indefinitely and would actually have to choose when to use skills. 

 

Right now it's spam 2 on any enemy you see forever because it refunds its own cost. If mission is over lvl 100 enemies it's spam 2 and then use 99% blessing on recharge. 

 

Even if you run a full duration blessing build you're still going to have EV up all the time. 

[izzatuw]

She's a medic.

You can hotkey gears so you don't have to open the menu.

Raids support 8 player co-op, the rest of the missions support 4 player co-op

[Kolos1001]

She's a medic.

Funny because the best trins never have to heal anyone besides themselves.