Developer Workshop: Saryn Ability Rework

[Racter]

Based on the numbers shown in stream, I don't see a reason to play Saryn at all anymore tbh. DPS frame that does no DPS, what's the point? She's certainly not tanky anymore, now not even good for clearing low level trash mobs lol

[-GV--Executioner]

So, mates, consider this:

 

This is the policy of a game in its Beta version? Write, erase, and see which sectors are most affected to implement?

If so, the feedback sector must have a huge analysis structure.

 

The more prospects are analyzed, fewer players will stop playing.

How many people who put money in the game and stopped playing just because it becomes boring?

The idea of ​​a game with infinite content is valid and really nice, but Warframe, right away, for new players, promises a universe of possibilities, but as the player progresses (identifying a huge lack of logic in many aspects), he just get bored. And every aspect that always needs to be logic is only influenced negatively more and more by these (and others) absurd/useless nerfs.

Talking about Saryn: She has no scalable ability, ie they are all static, limited to something, and u can see this in-game sometime, so it is not used to longruns in the game. What is the reason for nerfing Miasma base damage? That keyletters "OP"?

Please stop to limit the playing styles, and provide more, much more possibilities to improve gameplay (improving things, not nerfing things).

 

A politician does not win an election conquering a small part of their constituents, he needs at least 51% acceptance.

Many concepts need to be revised.

Saryn's rework is just one step over many advancing through a wrong way.

But the Saryn's rework ability it's not a nerf at all, just a "synergy improvement", ie spend more energy to have a damage closer to it's actual state. But I really don't care about that new Miasma, I like to play with other warframes, and imagine new combo squads (when they are available).

Remember that words: feedback, acceptance and brainstorming.

Then u can develop a really, really awesome game.

Edited November 1, 2015 by -GV--Executioner

[Mazzuco_]

So, I was playing around with numbers... Using a reasonable build for an extermination invasion (Flow, Tansient, Overextended, Stretch, Streamline, Intensify, Fleeting, Vitality): 

Saryn does 5625 of damage; Oberon, 1562; Frost, 1875. (With Rebbeca's build and Chlora Helmet: 12k of damage with Miasma) 

 

She used venom, contagion, miasma and the bombard was almost full HP yet.  

Since a lv 40 Bombard has a total of 127.000 HP aprox, 5% would be about 6k. So miasma only would deal 2k of actual 12k? It puts Saryn, a lethal killer, close to a average frame as Oberon.

 

"The goal with this set of changes it to have a very active (and lethal) skill set. The combinations between Venom, Molt, Contagion, and Miasma can lead to very quick and strategic deaths. The usage of Viral procs will be key at high-level gameplay, and active usage of Venom will guarantee those procs."

 

Her gamestyle will be fully afected, pratically from a AoE to a close combat style. I hope her rework is still a work in progress... otherwise... I can't believe 2k damage (while vulnerable to enemy) is a lethal combination that lead to quick deaths... at least enemies' deaths.

[CelticMoss]

Why do people think the damage of miasma is the best way to play saryn do you even fight past level 40 mobs?

[Koler.]

Why do people think the damage of miasma is the best way to play saryn do you even fight past level 40 mobs?

"Saryn can't kill mobs abole level 40" is a meme created by this community

[CelticMoss]

"Saryn can't kill mobs abole level 40" is a meme created by this community

? what?

[Koler.]

? what?

George Bush did 9/11

[Mazzuco_]

Why do people think the damage of miasma is the best way to play saryn do you even fight past level 40 mobs?

 

Speaking for myself, I never told that. I did say Miasma is usefull against low/mid level mobs and that the synergy/combination of skills used in devstream didn't lead to a very quick death, let alone a high level enemy in real situations.

[cheniek]

Also if you're like me and you've built your Saryn for Negative Duration to the maximum, I'll be trying some different builds/same builds on the Test environment like I did on the Devstream. I should have them up for viewing early next week if you're eager to take a look before you get your hands on the changes! If you have build requests, quote this with a screenshot of the build. I will accommodate what I can.

 

As you can see, this is negative duration build. Miasma has about 3950 dmg with Arcane Chlora. What's more, it gives me 75% power efficiency, so it's possible to spam it whenever i want :D But seriously, she is useful for fast mission and even in T4 runs. I can easily kill even high level enemies with Nova's Antimatter Drop. 

 

Now besides "op" dmg. Miasma is really useful in high level missions, because it can stun enemies for few seconds while dealing dmg. Max range and 25 energy per use gives us pretty nice tool for CC. It's possible to kill few enemies, stun again, kill again, etc. Meanwhile, Miasma kills the rest enemies.

 

Now, why i did this? This rework seems nice, but building her for positive duration would be problematic. It won't be versatile as is now. Using combos to deal more dmg is great idea, but it forces us to spend more time to deal damage. Imagine if we must use Trinity positive duration for Energy Vampire... In my opinion DE should think a lot before do that, otherwise we'll get something similar to toggle ult and get completely useless Chroma's Effigy :(

[GhostLacuna]

Developer Workshop: Saryn Ability Rework

 

Tenno - if you're interested in a comprehensive look at the upcoming Saryn Rework, read on! To see part of the Rework in action, click here: https://youtu.be/t2EAA26nKx4?t=39m34s

 

There are a lot of modding quirks with Saryn - the quick deadliness of her 'Miasma' depends on negative duration mods, which ultimately makes it tricky to get the best use out of the rest of her Abilities.

 

Many of us here at DE felt more synergy was needed between powers, and we wanted to put a particular emphasis on spreading disease/toxicity with her kit. As always, this is subject to change, but take a look at what we have so far:

 

Venom

• Guaranteed Viral proc on explosion of spores.
• If current host has a toxin Proc (i.e from Contagion or any other source), it will transfer that proc too.
• Damage ticks will be done every second, duration will affect how long the debuff is up.
• Increase base damage of the ability.

 

Molt

• Venom can be cast on Molt, infects units which attack Molt.
• Miasma cast in range of Molt will feed into Molt, creating more damage on explosion.

 

Contagion

• Guaranteed Toxin proc on melee hit.
• Detonates a Venom spore if the target has one.
• Damage output scales based on a percent of total damage of melee weapon with Mods, not base.

 

Miasma

• Damage ticks will be done every second, Duration will affect how long the debuff is up.
• 100% more damage if target is affected by a Viral proc (Venom guarantees a Viral proc when exploded).
• 100% more damage if target is affected by a Toxin proc (Contagion guarantees a Toxin proc on impact).
• Increase base damage overall.

 

The goal with this set of changes it to have a very active (and lethal) skill set. The combinations between Venom, Molt, Contagion, and Miasma can lead to very quick and strategic deaths. The usage of Viral procs will be key at high-level gameplay, and active usage of Venom will guarantee those procs.  

Worth noting - we are aiming to release these changes in a couple of weeks on PC. Stay tuned, Saryn lovers!

As an aside - if you're like me and you've built your Saryn for as much Negative Duration as possible, we'll put together another quick video of the changes in action on various builds to get a sense of the affect on gameplay. Will try and put something together by end-of-week or so (maybe early next week).

 

The problem here is that it will break the flow completely.

 

So venom will have a use great but we still have to cast it twice in a combo for it to do anything.

 

We still have to deal with the fact that Contagion is melee only and will get us killed the instance we try to use it against anything over level 25.

 

Molt still only affect things that attack it and i am sorry but the only thing that ever go for that molt or is affected by its puny explosion is melee infested units.

 

How do you plan to make molt help us against the other fractions which by far consists of ranged attackers.?

 

In the Dev stream saryn could not even handle one bombard. We will never face just one bombard in game nor will they all be in a nice little tight group for us to cast venom on first. There will be several groups facing us at the same time and they will be spread out.

 

Just closing the gap with a frame that has wet noodles for armor(155) aka 38.75% damage reduction will impact heavy damage on saryn. then we have to be in melee range to ensure we do any damage.

 

Miasma will only work if and only if we have casted a whole combo. Because that is the only way a rework saryn can maximize her damage.

 

the whole combo is venom, molt, venom, contagion, miasma. to bad that since negative duration was utter crap in what was shown we can drop fleeting all together on saryn. Leaving us only with streamline to lessen our energy cost. 

 

But wait with streamline the energy costs for a combo would be:

 

17.50 energy for venom

35 energy for molt

35 energy for contagion

70 energy for miasma

 

for a total of 175

 

So in conclusion Saryn has to have maxed flow or primed flow equipped for her to be able to cast the combo at all. Since with her base energy of 150 she cant even cast it once without the flow mods. 

 

Not to mention that casting all these abilities in a row will  take around 5-10 seconds. Plenty of time to die for all saryn players.

 

It will be intresting top see how many months it will take to get her to work after your little rework DE. Or if its going to work at all since we now have to take constant damage while using contagion in melee range.

Edited November 2, 2015 by GhostLacuna

[VoidNomade]

It´s funny.

Cast venom + use a toxic status gun of your choice that´s good in poping spores, evoila contagion isn´t even needed.

[-GV--Executioner]

Just 1 question: Who will be the next DPS Warframe? Maybe Saryn can still be one of those. The wait for the launch of this rework is agonizing. 

[DiosGX]

But wait with streamline the energy costs for a combo would be:

 

17.50 energy for venom

35 energy for molt

35 energy for contagion

70 energy for miasma

 

for a total of 175

 

So in conclusion Saryn has to have maxed flow or primed flow equipped for her to be able to cast the combo at all. Since with her base energy of 150 she cant even cast it once without the flow mods. 

 

Not to mention that casting all these abilities in a row will  take around 5-10 seconds. Plenty of time to die for all saryn players.

You make a valid point about how much excessive energy cost will be required to pull this off.

However, if you really are dying from casting abilities, I'd highly advise you learn how to bullet jump and air glide while casting her abilities. I've already been practicing how to use this upgraded kit of hers and I'm not having a problem with it going balls out in void survivals.

 

Do you even Regenerative Molt

[GhostLacuna]

You make a valid point about how much excessive energy cost will be required to pull this off.

However, if you really are dying from casting abilities, I'd highly advise you learn how to bullet jump and air glide while casting her abilities. I've already been practicing how to use this upgraded kit of hers and I'm not having a problem with it going balls out in void survivals.

 

Do you even Regenerative Molt

 

Dying from using venom no but its casting could be much improved

Dying from using molt no i have regenerative molt. Still take aggro less then decoy and its explosion range is suboptimal.

 

Dying from the only utterly useless skill saryns has? Hell yeah i would die from using contagion.  Or rather i would take a crap ton of damage say F*** it cast regenerative molt bullet jump the hell out of there and then kill the enemy from range.

 

In practice the only time it would ever be cast is if i did it by accident while attempting to use something that are actually of use to saryn.

 

then i would mourn the lost energy and kill the enemies in a much faster and much safer way with the useful skills or any primary or secondary weapon out there.

[thefriendlyorc]

So...now she suffers from the 'needing four stats' thing. You now need duration, efficiency due to her low energy pool, power due to late game scaling, range due to the risk of melee now. So she will be stretched in all directions and most corrupted mods will be useless. Yet nothing of her energy costs, pool or stats have been changed. I don't want to say you've dumpstered my favorite frame, but venom and contagion only seem useful in melee now, molt didn't change at all, exept now I'm not sure if I can even afford to use regen molt mod with all the stats I will be needing now. Nor have the extra hp or rage to use with it. Contagion changes seem....ok, still melee so late game her miasma damage won't often be used due to it losing negative duration bonus to damage. Can contagion at least effect ranged weapons? Or can miasma proc off weapon proc as well? She's a mess now. =/

[FrostSpecter]

Damn...Orchid skin and now this rework?

 

MY BODY IS READY.

[(PSN)Chino_Feo_1337]

I think venom, contagion and a glaive could make some great synergy ^^

[alergiclaprosti]

Shouldn't Saryn get a stealth(like she used to) as long as molt is active? The stealth will be broken if Saryn attacks.

 

This would make Molt a usefull deception (the primary use), giving that now enemies tend to ignore it and still aim for the frame.

 

To balance this ... Molt will not spread toxic(+ viral if the case) if ended by the user.

Edited November 4, 2015 by alergiclaprosti

[Darkmatt3r]

*rework* more like *slaughter*

[VK4502b]

Is this today, tomorrow or sometime next week?

[(PSN)crow5716]

I don't want this to turn in to a big conversation. I just want this to be a quick, get my point out to DE.

 

My favorite frames were Mesa & Mag. I built them perfect, put tons of Formas in to them. Mesa was a pure Peacemaker build. Mag was pure Corpus and Farming build. Since you pooped on them I don't use them much anymore. Mesa was able to kill everything in the whole room for a long time. Mag was perfect for farming and able to suck in all the items from  all over the room to you. Anyway, both are dead (to me) now...

 

So, I moved on to Saryn. Same story, built up with tons of Formas. Able to run around and Nuke everything. Now I hear you want to poop on her. It seems like any of the frames I gravitate towards get uber-nerfed.

 

I am not a new player that doesn't know how to play and only wants easy kills. I have every weapon, frame, archwing, everything in the game. Mastery Rank 20. I have been playing this game for a long time. I enjoy playing the game. Having everything in the game, I am able to pick whatever I want to use and mod it to however I want. I enjoy playing a certain way and it always seems to get pooped on.

 

I enjoy playing in a way that kills everything in large quantities quickly. They are eventually going to poop on all frames that kill large groups of enemies. I hear they are trying to nerf Ash's ult. I don't as much care personally about that since I'm not an Ash fan, but it goes along with the same idea of nerfing any frame that kills large groups quickly.

 

It's only a matter of time before they start pooping on my favorite weapons too. I love the link weapons such as Atomos or Amprex since they too kill whole rooms quickly. If I'm not using link weapons then I use Tonkor or Kullstar since they too can kill large groups quickly. That's about it. I am not interested in using weapons that only kill 1 or 2 guys at a time. Same with frames.

 

In the end it seems like DE wants to nerf anything that kills large groups effortlessly. It almost feels like they want people to melee and use shotguns and use poop frames that kill enemies 1 at a time, slowly or make missions take forever.

 

I have a certain play style I enjoy and it seems they ruin it a little more with every update.

 

Thanks for listening.

[(PSN)kira4715]

After this last dev stream i'm no longer excited for saryn's rework it's crap with hardly any thought put into it 

Edited November 4, 2015 by (PS4)kira4715

[[DE]Rebecca]

A couple last points:

1) Venom and Contagion are being renamed completely, confirmed.
2) The proposed OP has also undergone changes - Saryn's Energy Capacity is increasing, Health and Armor are also being positively adjusted.
3) Ability Durations and more are being adjusted, final details on this will come with the Update notes when it ships as it is still actively being tuned.

We'll have a megathread up when 17.10.0 hits with all the content on PC (which will be today or tomorrow).

Megathread: https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/556381-feedback-megathread-saryn-revisited/

 

Note: Armor, Energy were positively adjusted, Health was reduced slightly. Final tunings!

Edited November 4, 2015 by DERebecca