Feedback Megathread: Saryn Revisited.

[Thyriell]

On paper, its a pretty cool rework. The synergy is interesting. In practice, as many of the the posts already state, not so much. Hopefully she will get tweaked soon.

[H3RRD0KT0R]

I honestly dont like this idea of "sinergy", I think the ideal sinergy would come from good abilities that would fit well together, not having poor (incomplete) abilities that only seem to be good when used together.

 

I dont think anyone is buying the idea of using a couple of abilities together just to get a result you could get from a single good ability from another warframe. Not to mention the absurd energy cost, as now you cant rely on power efficiency.

[Kaokasalis]

How about you actually try out the frame before making assumptions like this OP.

[RealPandemonium]

I pose a challenge to DE, go grab Saryn, fully mod her out and then play a T3 survival for 40 minutes. I give only one condition, you can't bring life strike. Then post the video.

They could get away with just spamming pizzas.  Also, are you saying solo?

[Bronicks]

This entire affair began with the thought that having a "Room Nuker" was bad.

 

I am...no longer certain that was/is the case. 

 

Warframe is a horde mode game. Whatever the devs say, it is. Very little AI; no enemy tactics; massive numbers of spawns that walk right into player fire. Its Killing Floor in space.

 

Warframe NEEDS a Nuke. 

 

Warframe does offer time to wait on your Nuke to finally deal sufficient damage to BE a Nuke. The Nuke needs to just...happen.

 

Okay, there's problem number 1: The (false) assumption that Nuker = Bad.

 

Problem 2: Energy. 

 

Once again, in response to spamming a power, the power gets nerfed.

 

With zero thought to the player's ability to keep spamming it. 

 

The problem isnt powers. Its the overabundance and ready availability during missions of frame energy. When are we are finally going to learn that making energy slightly more scarce is the real answer. 

 

Here's an idea for how we fix this:

 

-No more Energy Pizzas

 

-No more energy orbs

 

-Players receive 2 energy per kill of their own; kills by others within affinity sharing range restore 0.5 - 1 energy per kill. 

 

 +1 Extra energy for Stealth kills/Style kills (sliding or aim glide)

 

 +2 Extra energy for (your own) Headshots. 

 

 +2 Energy for Melee kills

 

 +1 Energy for kills using abilities OTHER THAN Ultimates. (Kills using Ultimate abilities would not restore energy). 

As then you will play one on hard (nightmare) missions ??? Personally, I sometimes like to run one. And your solution is not correct.

[Omega-Shadowblade]

her 1st scales well half health regardless of level, her 2nd draws agro at all levels, and her 3rd scales with melee so depending on the weapon it can go either way.

[Jamestec]

Couple of ideas after playing reworked Saryn for a bit:

• Make 3 (Toxic Lash) a toggle ability.

• Give 1 (Spores) an initial range to hit close enemies (like Equinox, 5m?).

• Make 4 (Miasma) buff the healing of the augment mod "Regenerative Molt".

• Replace the 100% increase in damage with 4 (Miasma) when the target has a Viral or Toxic proc with finisher damage; this will give Saryn more endgame potential and reward players for chaining 1 (Spores) 3 (Toxic Lash) and 4 (Miasma).

Also, perhaps an augment mod for 4 (Miasma) that turns it into a toggle ability. Because toggle.

 

Replace Saryn bullet jump animation with a farting animation with innate gas damage pls.

Edited November 5, 2015 by Jamestec

[Fraggl3Rox]

Try building Saryn for duration and range. Use Spores and a Sonicor.

 

Turns out that Sonicor blasts can safely detonate Spores on entire groups, instantly applying multiple viral procs to every enemy.  I tested this solo on Heiracon with a Sonicor modded only with Barrel Diffusion, Lethal Torrent, and Quickdraw.  Even though my Sonicor was doing laughably small amounts of damage I was able to clear entire groups with every shot.  Anything that didn't die outright was immediately covered with more spores from the other nearby targets, setting it up for another salvo of viral procs.   It was ridiculously effective, and as long as you're in a target rich environment you can cast Spores once and continue spreading it around indefinitely.

 

Give it a shot, it's pretty cool.

[Parasthesia]

Alright, there's a lot of good in the 1,2,3 skills rework! Loving the synergy between these! Miasma and the buffs it gets from the spreading of procs is unfortunately lacking. I feel that skill and in what scenario it's useful in needs some more looking at. It might do more damage over a longer period of time after the intial setup, but the usefulness of this as your team clears out a room and moves on, or as enemies start hitting harder and faster and you don't have time or cover to wait for 20 seconds with Miasma recasts.

 

Good start, but needs more work. Some buffs, some nerfs (to fun).

 

Also, Miasma seems to lack the base damage type of corrosive now?

 

edit: I just don't see what kind of scenario that Saryn is useful in now, over any other frame in her special way. And I want that niche.

Edited November 5, 2015 by Parasthesia

[akira_him]

 

Couple of ideas after playing reworked Saryn for a bit:

• Make 3 (Toxic Lash) a toggle ability.

• Give 1 (Spores) an initial range to hit close enemies (like Equinox, 5m?).

• Make 4 (Miasma) buff the healing of the augment mod "Regenerative Molt".

• Replace the 100% increase in damage with 4 (Miasma) when the target has a Viral or Toxic proc with finisher damage; this will give Saryn more endgame potential and reward players for chaining 1 (Spores) 3 (Toxic Lash) and 4 (Miasma).

Also, perhaps an augment mod for 4 (Miasma) that turns it into a toggle ability. Because toggle.

 

Replace Saryn bullet jump animation with a farting animation with innate gas damage pls.

 

[Brozime]

Well looks like the end of Saryn with these hard nerfs.

 

This kit is asking me to not only spread my 1 but then also use my 3 on an enemy I want to do significant damage to with my 4.  

 

All of that would be fine if the damage I was getting out of it was significant but the full combination can't even kill level 70 basic corrupt units let alone do anything to keep them under control for more than 1 second.  This means that Saryn might as well been shot and left to die in Embers old home that she JUST BARELY got out of with her recent buff.  I don't understand how we can have high performance melee frames like Excal and Valkyr be at an acceptable damage level but then Saryn asks me to do something that requires more energy and skill where I need to put my self in more danger and I get almost no damage out of it.  I'm casting Miasma on groups 2-3 times when they have 1 and 3 procs and it just doesn't do anything worth the trouble.

 

I don't mind combining abilities and being more skillful but some sort of payoff would be nice.  

[NDroid]

These new changes appear to be geared towards making Saryn a melee focused damage dealer and I do like this direction myself. It's a more engaging way to play the frame that reminds me a bit of the old Venom days. The playstyle seems to revolve around keeping Toxic Lash up, casting Spore on a target and meleeing it to spread both procs, then nuking with Miasma if anything's still standing. It seems quite effective so far in terms of damage output but costs a lot a of energy. Rage is pretty much mandatory. Maybe a cost reduction for Miasma could help?

 

Another issue I can see is that Saryn lacks the tankiness of other melee frames like Valkyr and Chroma. The damage reduction on Toxic Lash isn't really enough and the new Miasma has a worse CC component so survivability becomes an issue. Fitting in Regenerative Molt to help some is more difficult now as well with the new way you need to mod the frame. Since Saryn is geared more towards damage than being a tank, improving the CC could be the way to go.

 

Finally, having the spores spread on death would be a nice QoL change.

Edited November 5, 2015 by NDroid

[Hammahness808]

This has been my experience as well. Only using re-gen molt and spore on it when I need to recover. I don't even see the point of using Miasma in it's current state. Even these combos are quite expensive to cast.

She needs the base costs of her powers looked at, spore should cost 15, molt 25 and toxic lash at most 50.

Toxic lash does cost 50 actually.

 

They could get away with just spamming pizzas.  Also, are you saying solo?

Yeah, meant solo. Also, pizza spamming is fine by me. Let's see how often they would have to do it and if even 20 would last 40 minutes.

 

Try building Saryn for duration and range. Use Spores and a Sonicor.

I tried it with a Kohm build, same effect almost, fun.

 

 

 

I understand the cause of this "rework" was the annoyance of a power that could room clear, but with how many enemies Warframe spawns and how horde-mode it is, it's necessary. I've been here since closed Beta. I remember when energy drops were shares, and powers were rarely used. There were also less spawns, the game was slower paced, and felt more rewarding. This is not the game Warframe is anymore. It's a bum rush hoard mode where you have to mow down as many enemies as possible. The only mode that this does not apply to is Spy. That's it.

Exactly, less enemies would make this rework a lot more amazing but with the need for either large CC, Damage, or Defense, you're out of luck and Saryn at the moment just has a mix of these.

Edited November 5, 2015 by TGKazein

[Man_In_Suitcase]

 

Couple of ideas after playing reworked Saryn for a bit:

• Make 3 (Toxic Lash) a toggle ability.

 

This. They is simply too much casting involved with saryn in order to get her to synergize, its awful. She needs a toggle badly.

[Noteybook]

I didn't play Saryn much, maybe occasionally for room clearing/speeding cap keys. I heard what this update was trying to do, and I was worried that the superfocus on "synergy" would leave her having to spam all 4 powers, and unable to without energy restores or an EV Trin.

 

After playing a little bit, that seems to be the case. Her powers are extremely expensive, the fact you need to cast all of them multiple times just stresses this even more. The energy pool buff only helps a little bit. I don't understand the HP nerf either, that was out of place.

 

She feels extremely weak because she is always out of energy and thus cannot utilize her powers, at all. It's also very repetitive to have to be worrying about your order of operations in terms of power usage. Why would I take Saryn, when I could take someone like Ember, Exalibur, or some other frame that has an AoE that doesn't need 2 other powers to work?

 

I understand the cause of this "rework" was the annoyance of a power that could room clear, but with how many enemies Warframe spawns and how horde-mode it is, it's necessary. I've been here since closed Beta. I remember when energy drops were shares, and powers were rarely used. There were also less spawns, the game was slower paced, and felt more rewarding. This is not the game Warframe is anymore. It's a bum rush hoard mode where you have to mow down as many enemies as possible. The only mode that this does not apply to is Spy. That's it.

 

Overall this rework feels unnecessary, it doesn't seem to jive with Warframe's gameplay, and it seems very limiting and just an overall nerf. I'm concerned why other frames, such as Mag or Oberon, weren't looked at instead. They needed it.

[Barkano]

Guys remember when atlas get released and he really suck thentheplayers complain all together and suggest proper buffs with maths and stuffs days later De responder to that and nowatlas can develop pretty well in high level mission. Maybe we should do the same im pretty sure that they Will listen couse they want to sell the new saryns skin.

[cole_mooneyes]

Please just revert Saryn changes you made her into mag now a damage frame with no damage and no scaling it was better before the change and that's bad the frost and Excal reworks were great but this is horrid and an overall nerf

[AoiiToori]

The fact that people actually came up with this "EHP" stat makes me cringe. 

[Xentia-Damascus]

her 1st scales well half health regardless of level, her 2nd draws agro at all levels, and her 3rd scales with melee so depending on the weapon it can go either way.

Her first does terrible damage and viral procs can be done better with an Amprex or Ignis. Enemies will usually target which is closer and at higher levels molt wont last that long; it isn't a reliable way to aggro enemies for a good length of time. Toxic Lash is probably the best ability in her entire kit right now considering it scales off all total weapon damage, but the toxin procs from weapons do laughable damage. 

 

She doesn't scale like other frames do with Mesa and Trin's ability to have damage reduction for survivability, frost's armor reduction on Avalanche, or even the finisher damage and guaranteed slash procs from Ash's Bladestorm. She still isn't a frame worth much out of mid-tier.

[Thelonious]

Try building Saryn for duration and range. Use Spores and a Sonicor.

 

Turns out that Sonicor blasts can safely detonate Spores on entire groups, instantly applying multiple viral procs to every enemy.  I tested this solo on Heiracon with a Sonicor modded only with Barrel Diffusion, Lethal Torrent, and Quickdraw.  Even though my Sonicor was doing laughably small amounts of damage I was able to clear entire groups with every shot.  Anything that didn't die outright was immediately covered with more spores from the other nearby targets, setting it up for another salvo of viral procs.   It was ridiculously effective, and as long as you're in a target rich environment you can cast Spores once and continue spreading it around indefinitely.

 

Give it a shot, it's pretty cool.

 

You could already do that yesterday (before the update).

Or you could just mod your sonicor normally, and outright KILL everything you hit, viral proc or not.

 

 

Here is my feedback:

The idea of synergizing the kit was good on paper, not so much in practice: each ability has lost viability on its own if not used in combination with others.

Problem is, no matter what build I used (prime flow, max efficiency, rage...), I always ended up out of energy pretty quickly from all this additional ability usage.

 

Various notes on abilities:

1.Spores:

 - hard to spread without using toxin lash, the spores get stuck inside the model, or behind, on the side, where it's hard to reach without punch-through mods. Has always been an issue with the abiity, it's still not fixed. It may be worse now that only 3 spores spawn at a time.

 - Plus, the spores only appear after a very annoying ~1 second delay, during which most target just die from teamate fire, before you even had the chance to shoot at spores, or even see them.

 - Tested with Molt, but the spores rarely spread, except on the death of molt, even when attacked at melee range. Either it's bugged or the spread is not guaranteed (%chance maybe?)

 

Conclusion: the ability is mostly underwhelming without the use of melee AND an additional 50 energy (molt or toxin lash, or both)

 

2. Molt:

 - see above for issue with spores

Apart from the new synergy it has with the rest of the kit, it is the same mid-game viable ability it was before. Not much more to say, it still gets one-shot at high-level.

 

3. Both the damage buff and damage block are underwhelming, and it shows in practice.

I mean, compared to what tools other melee centric frames got, she got the short end of the stick

Exca has auto-block (not just a boost to damage block, which he also has btw), more armor, more melee damage and range attacks.

Atlas has more armor, more damage and more scaling.

Vlakyr has tons of armor, huuuuuuuge damage and attack speed buffs (not to mention innate life-leech AND invulnerability)

 

Conclusion: that's a weak melee buff only justified by the synergy it brings to the kit, but far from enough of its own.

 

4. Miasma:

My opinion is that it now requires too much setup (and therefore too much time, in a very fast-paced game) for it to be viable.

Since it's the only cc she has, every other ability necessary for optimal damage must be casted without the help of any crowd control, which makes it hard, even deadly in some cases (since she's too fragile to go full melee and molt won't last long enough: see above)

Even then, in a co-op game, with teamates providing assistance, most of the mobs targeted will die before you can cast half of the necessary abilities.

Simply shooting with some of the most powerful guns in the game seems more efficient and effective.  

 

 

She went from the best end-game nuker to a complicated and not-so-much-effective mid-game damage/status dealer.

Most would see that as a demotion.

Edited November 5, 2015 by Thelonious

[Tesseract7777]

Who knows what's going to happen to Ash though... his Bladestorm is being reworked. 

[Terumitsu]

The fact that people actually came up with this "EHP" stat makes me cringe. 

How so? Effective HP due to the interaction of actual HP and Armor is a thing, after all. Valkyr can hit around an effective 8,000 HP or so if you build her right and this makes healing much more efficient on high-armor frames than others due to the 'effective HP' they have.

 

And moving on from that topic, I think she's got a problem with using a lot of energy in a short span of time but I can easily make high-level things melt with 3-1-Tonbo-4 without much worry of death. Would like the armor as even more she's a Melee frame but that's already been touched on.

Edited November 5, 2015 by Terumitsu

[hukurokuju5]

making spore popping restore small amounts of energy to encourage this wombo combo playstyle.

 

 

 

you're welcome

Edited November 5, 2015 by hukurokuju5

[Wargasm_v2.X]

DE,

It's the forums so everyone will cry if they can't just press 4 repeatedly and watch everything die.  I hope you stick to your guns and maybe make tweaks but please don't cave to the outcry of the Press 4 to Win kiddies.

 

Pressing one button repeatedly to ridiculous effectiveness might be good for a mobile game targeted to 3-5 yr olds but isn't the type of depth or interesting gameplay expected in a modern 3rd person "action" shooter - Free to Play or no.

[DxAdder]

I will do some more runs with the "new " Sayrn but a few 4 round runs in Draco and with another Sayrn I would have to say

energy consumption and casting time gets you to trouble.

 

It's not terrible by any means but I could have used 5 other frames and had a much easier time.