Feedback Megathread: Saryn Revisited.

[gizol333]

 

• • Saryn’s base Armor is now 175.
  • Saryn’s base Health is now 125.

 

I fail to see any good reason for this to be in her rework.

[(PSN)KestralSylver]

But the positive effect from downsiding duration on Saryn came from DE rework 1 years ago. WTF cant u remember ? How can you trow it back at the players ?

 

She was good.

Then it came out transient fortitude, and she went from good to powerful nuker.

Then it came out regenerative molt, and she went from powerful nuker, to powerful nuker with perfect survival capabilities and excellent efficiency-Aoe damage balance.

The problem is the mods, not the frame. As mogamu said, "there will be always a viver" or a loot cave, or an OP thing.

Understanding this is the key to stop commetting the same mistake.

Okay, she was not kneejerk nerfed to reduce her efficiency in one particularly heinous situation. Her powers were instead reworked so that she wasn't viewed as a nuke reliant frame. There's a big difference. They wanted her to have more of a niche rather than only allowing 2 of her abilities to be viable in any situation. Whether that worked or not is subjective according to what your basis of accomplishment is. I find that she performs quite well now in most situations, but drops off quite a bit for endgame activities. Either way, I see what they were going for, they just missed the mark a bit in keeping her appeal towards those players who relied on her Miasma heavily. That's really all this boils down to.

[Kaotyke]

I've done my tests.

 

This is all against lvl 100 so take it with a grain of salt.

 

Test cases:

Build in vid.

 

General stats:

 

Enemies: 10 Heavy Gunners at lvl 100, 10 Ancient Infested at lvl 100, 10 Bombards at lvl 100.

 

General thoughts. She can survive level 100s by blocking with melee. Her Miasma and Viral procs can be used to eventually wear down armor at  rapid pace. 

 

Against Ancients she has absolutely no problems so I'll assume there are no problems with any infested.

Against Heavy Gunners she can manage as Block takes care of most incoming dmg and you will eventually wear down the Gunners with Corrosive from Miasma and Viral procs.

Against Bombers... Well... I managed about 1 second of 10 lvl 100 heavy bombers missiles. Utterly annihilated. Above my skill level.

 

I ended up using Melee because it had the survivability I needed with block. Also tried Embolist and Ignis modded for Viral but didn't have much success.

 

Spores:

What I like:

- It's AOE. I don't know how but it sure seems to have some sort of AOE.

- It's also one handed cast which is always lovely.

- Guaranteed Viral proc.

What I don't like:

- It doesn't really scale that well from the looks of it aka Dmg is a bit on the low side.

- I have no idea how reliable the AOE effect is. Seems to spread when a spore is popped.

 

What I would change:

Make it scale with weapons. That might be nice.

Make it so weapons like Embolist and Ignis can pop the spores.

 

Molt:

Pros:

- Augment still works.

Cons:

- umm... Honestly? I didn't use it even once.

- Simply does not scale to lvl 100. Doesn't have the durability.

 

What I would change:

Make it scale with enemy level and gain armor at the same rate as a Heavy Gunner does.

 

Toxic Slash:

Pros:

-More dmg to melee. Always nice!

-Can make your block 90% with any melee weapon! Basically what I love the most about the rework.

- More procs! Yay!

- Pops spores! Makes more procs! Yay!

- Has a great duration.

- Scales a bit!

- DMG buffs are greaaaat...

Cons:

- Has a duration. Limiting your good times.

 

What I would change:

 

- I don't know. I rather enjoy it.

- Make it a team buff with no range limiters?

 

Miasma:

Pros:

- Corrosive procs!

- A bit of a stun.

- Other than that I got nothing.

Cons:

- Low dmg.

- Low dmg even after absorbing Toxic and Viral procs.

- Yeaaaaah...

 

What I would change:

- I would make Miasma reduce enemy armor 10% every tick permanently. Would make it AMAZING for solo long runs.

- Increase the stun duration.

 

That's what I think.

 

Other than that I'd buff her HP and armor. Seriously. That EHP nerf was not funny.

Have you tried to put Spore in Molt and then using Miasma near it?

[Wakda]

Im not posting much on forum, and dont know if anyone said it there before, but why does have this rework has to be about nerfing one ability in order to promote using other 3? Why it couldnt be about making abilities more enjoyable/usefull or i dont know what ppl want from them, to promote their use?

Why this rework wasnt about promoting other abilities in order to encourage people to use them more than the by some players so much hated Miasma?

 

Im admiting i was one of ppl that preffer her 4th ability to kill mob of mobs, i played Draco in order to get fast xp, and yes my build were focused only on Miasma. But also i have to admit that i tryed moding her in order to make use of all her abilities tho how much i tried i had never found build that would encourage me to chose her over than other frames, well except that 12% duration one.

 

And even if that, for some buff for some nerf i bought her new skin because i love that frame and i would never stop play her even if it meant never use her abilites again which would be sad, but i hope there will be revisit of her rework and devs will actualy listen to what players and not money are saying.

 

Also i appologise if i offended someone by that post.

 

 

PS. why does this thing always forces capital letter at begining of word Money?

[JamXmed]

I'd just like to point out that her base stats weren't changed AT ALL except for her Base Health which got a nerf. She's had the same amount of armour for quite a while now but the nerf to her HP is just not necessary.

 

I still say her abilities need to have guaranteed status procs. Status procs effected by duration, this way she'd scale hard into the late game as a tanky(ish) support frame fulfilling the idea of stripping armour for the team.

[RexRgisIocus]

But the positive effect from downsiding duration on Saryn came from DE rework 1 years ago. WTF cant u remember ? How can you trow it back at the players ?

 

She was good.

Then it came out transient fortitude, and she went from good to powerful nuker.

Then it came out regenerative molt, and she went from powerful nuker, to powerful nuker with perfect survival capabilities and excellent efficiency-Aoe damage balance.

The problem is the mods, not the frame. As mogamu said, "there will be always a viver" or a loot cave, or an OP thing.

Understanding this is the key to stop commetting the same mistake.

 

Still doesn't change the fact that people used a helmet for its downside on purpose. Transient Fortitude further shed light on Saryn's problem. Negative duration should be a negative. Not a positive. When a frames best build is to kill 3 abilities out of 4 and just spam that 4th there is something very wrong.

 

Yes the ridiculous amount of power our mods give us is a problem. But Saryn had a problem as well. No frame should benefit from killing the other abilities.

[SwartJas]

The rework is a mess at the moment, simularicum(spelling?) simulations i find unrealistic as the enemy comp is always just one thing, and not a mix of what you actually get. e.g. in a TIV or OD mission by roation by wave or min 20, you have leeches(parasitic), disruptors, healers and if in the void nullifiers. Someone did post a realist scenario but i cant find it atm where they had a nice mix of different enemies.

The basic combo of  2->1->4 requires 43.75 energy to pull off (at max effeciency 75%) and 122 energy (using only maxed streamline30%).

 

I think the best solution would be doubling the range( or explosion range) of everything( and making them un changable), make her third apply to ALL her weapons. This would eliminate the need for the addition of range increasing mods, freeing up a slot for survivability. Her abilities also need ot become more energy effecient, as it is now, you need almost double the amount of energy to pull off the same DPS that you could using only her ult before hte rework.

 

The only reason p4w exists is to reduce grind, it was one of the msot effecient ways to gain affinity, or resources.

[Kastorius]

Literally every single person who thinks Saryn is now any good as an almost purely damage-dealing frame has no idea how to play Warframe, full stop.

 

The only way it is even remotely possible to believe that Saryn is good at dealing damage is to have absolutely no experience whatsoever playing any of the other damage-centric frames. The good ones out-damage Saryn by a factor of 3 or 4, while the merely okay ones out-damage her by a factor of 1.5-3.

 

I believe that DE are pulling off something similar to the door-in-the-face psychological technique. They've made Saryn completely awful on purpose so that, a few days from now after the rage has mostly been expended, they can throw us a bone by giving Saryn some more HP, higher max energy, boost her ability damage a bit, and then the forum yes-men will say: "See, DE listened! They listened and they fixed her! She's fine now! Shame on all you complainers!".

 

Except that she'll still be bad, despite the appearance of meeting players' concerns halfway. They're going to nerf efficient farming methods whether you like it or not, even if the "reworks" they implement are awful and ruin the frame's viability.

[Ziegrif]

Have you tried to put Spore in Molt and then using Miasma near it?

 

No didn't think to do that as the Heavy Gunners simply blew the Molt up too fast so I didn't have the time.

Edited November 5, 2015 by Ziegrif

[LordBeeBrain]

Can you please make the spores spread upon an enemy's death?

 

I am sick and tired of my teammates killing a target with spores on them without giving me a chance to pop the spores and spread them. It would make things so much easier.

 

Also, since this Saryn is so reliant on Toxic Lash, can you make it have a set duration of at least 40 seconds, which can be increased by mods?

 

Miasma could use a bit more range too.

[RHuckebein]

Or it could be the fact the with negative duration as the most effective method of producing the damage plus "venom" and "contagion" being near useless in the face of miasma that Saryn was reduced to a press 4 bot because no other kit could compare

 

I dunno just a theory.

 

No, a hypothesis.  A theory is backed up with data, which that isn't.

 

Miasma spam was useful only on maps with low-health or corrosive-weak enemies (without blind rage, miasma stops one-shotting scorpions on draco by wave 3) and only up to a certain level.  Even by wave 4 of Draco it is already starting to fall off if you don't have blind rage.  If you were in moderately high-level tower (high tower defenses after wave 15 even), miasma wasn't killing stuff anymore, if you didn't spread viral around with venom it was just a expensive lackluster stun.  Of course, if you were on the ball you could keep venom spreading even with low duration so that miasma would kill things - but that required quick precision aiming and awareness to see where the new spores spread to.

 

It required an actual amount of skill.  Whoa!

 

The max-power Min-duration build for saryn fell off hard.  She wasn't even particularly wanted in tower survivals even beyond the falling off, because enemies killed by miasma ticks would disintegrate and Nekros couldn't desecrate them.  If you wanted to actually play saryn into the end-game content you had to either tweak the build to account for venom or develop a significant amount of skill for rapid aiming.

 

You just don't know about any of this, because saryn wasn't actually a very powerful frame, she was just very well-suited for rapidly farming low-level exterminate missions and draco.

 

Also if you think that miasma is why contagion was useless, you have no idea how the game even works.  Toxic Lash is STILL useless, contagion was even worse.  Spore isn't even any better than venom, you're just forced to use it even against low-level enemies now since Saryn's 1 and 2 are her only decent abilities.  They didn't even get appreciable buffs.

 

I'd love for saryn to get more options and a defined role (other than low-level/draco sweeper, which was her role before 17.10), and I mentioned a list of suggestions earlier in the thread for that.  With what she has right now, her role is 'bad damage/debuff frame.'  Molecular Prime (the single ability) is better than the ENTIRETY of current saryn.  That's disgusting.  And it's incredibly obvious, and DE would have noticed immediately if they did any testing at all outside of simulacrum testing to see if the 'synergy' functioned.

[SwartJas]

Literally every single person who thinks Saryn is now any good as an almost purely damage-dealing frame has no idea how to play Warframe, full stop.

 

The only way it is even remotely possible to believe that Saryn is good at dealing damage is to have absolutely no experience whatsoever playing any of the other damage-centric frames. The good ones out-damage Saryn by a factor of 3 or 4, while the merely okay ones out-damage her by a factor of 1.5-3.

 

I believe that DE are pulling off something similar to the door-in-the-face psychological technique. They've made Saryn completely awful on purpose so that, a few days from now after the rage has mostly been expended, they can throw us a bone by giving Saryn some more HP, higher max energy, boost her ability damage a bit, and then the forum yes-men will say: "See, DE listened! They listened and they fixed her! She's fine now! Shame on all you complainers!".

 

Except that she'll still be bad, despite the appearance of meeting players' concerns halfway. They're going to nerf efficient farming methods whether you like it or not, even if the "reworks" they implement are awful and ruin the frame's viability.

I think you got it in one.

[Kaotyke]

No didn't think to do that as the Heavy Gunners simply blew the Molt up too fast so I didn't have the time.

Something to put on feedback, maybe having Decoy and Molt be invunerable for a few seconds after casting? Both die very fast at high levels.

[Hammahness808]

Literally every single person who thinks Saryn is now any good as an almost purely damage-dealing frame has no idea how to play Warframe, full stop.

 

The only way it is even remotely possible to believe that Saryn is good at dealing damage is to have absolutely no experience whatsoever playing any of the other damage-centric frames. The good ones out-damage Saryn by a factor of 3 or 4, while the merely okay ones out-damage her by a factor of 1.5-3.

 

I believe that DE are pulling off something similar to the door-in-the-face psychological technique. They've made Saryn completely awful on purpose so that, a few days from now after the rage has mostly been expended, they can throw us a bone by giving Saryn some more HP, higher max energy, boost her ability damage a bit, and then the forum yes-men will say: "See, DE listened! They listened and they fixed her! She's fine now! Shame on all you complainers!".

 

Except that she'll still be bad, despite the appearance of meeting players' concerns halfway. They're going to nerf efficient farming methods whether you like it or not, even if the "reworks" they implement are awful and ruin the frame's viability.

Hmm, why else would they have a Megathread on the changes? I've never seen such backlash before in the 6 months that I've been playing and reading the forums.

 

I doubt that even if they do read this thread, they won't go past the 10 page mark, unless they run some sort of word compiler on it.

 

This is going to be the one time that I actually watch the PrimeTime tonight. If they don't make any tweaks before the game, it's gonna be funny. Either they'll be very weapon reliant, won't stay past 20 waves, and/or heavily use power pads.

[Epicagemo]

Considering the state of current melee:

maybe venom spores should cost nothing while toxic lash is active

or have free spore opportunity like valkyr or atlas

Or channel cost should be wavered under contagion or toxic lash

And toxic lash damage should be increased significantly. I was expecting about 200% base but we get 100% base, considering the mod slot availability... It's not that much honestly.

[Mirikaj]

They want us to spend up to 200 plat on this? Ahahahahahaha.

[Ziegrif]

Something to put on feedback, maybe having Decoy and Molt be invunerable for a few seconds after casting? Both die very fast at high levels.

 

Good idea.

Kinda like Globe.

Maybe both should scale the same way and function the same as Snowglobe.

[(PSN)aiptekfanboy]

Literally every single person who thinks Saryn is now any good as an almost purely damage-dealing frame has no idea how to play Warframe, full stop.

 

The only way it is even remotely possible to believe that Saryn is good at dealing damage is to have absolutely no experience whatsoever playing any of the other damage-centric frames. The good ones out-damage Saryn by a factor of 3 or 4, while the merely okay ones out-damage her by a factor of 1.5-3.

 

I believe that DE are pulling off something similar to the door-in-the-face psychological technique. They've made Saryn completely awful on purpose so that, a few days from now after the rage has mostly been expended, they can throw us a bone by giving Saryn some more HP, higher max energy, boost her ability damage a bit, and then the forum yes-men will say: "See, DE listened! They listened and they fixed her! She's fine now! Shame on all you complainers!".

 

Except that she'll still be bad, despite the appearance of meeting players' concerns halfway. They're going to nerf efficient farming methods whether you like it or not, even if the "reworks" they implement are awful and ruin the frame's viability.

They can try this?

But as it is I predict many will temporarily drop Warframe to play other games either due to anger at the nerfs or due to fatigue with Warframe.

[RHuckebein]

Considering the state of current melee:

maybe venom spores should cost nothing while toxic lash is active

or have free spore opportunity like valkyr or atlas

Or channel cost should be wavered under contagion or toxic lash

And toxic lash damage should be increased significantly. I was expecting about 200% base but we get 100% base, considering the mod slot availability... It's not that much honestly.

 

It would actually be really cool if Spore had no energy cost if you used it on an enemy suffering from a toxic proc.

Also Toxic Lash isn't a base damage increase anymore, it increases post-mod damage.  It's actually a decently large damage buff.  That's not why it's bad.  The duration is too short, forcing you to recast it too frequently.  Ordinarily this wouldn't be a problem, but saryn also needs to nearly constantly be casting her other abilities.  Making Toxic Lash a toggle would go a long way toward making it good.

[(PSN)KestralSylver]

Still doesn't change the fact that people used a helmet for its downside on purpose. Transient Fortitude further shed light on Saryn's problem. Negative duration should be a negative. Not a positive. When a frames best build is to kill 3 abilities out of 4 and just spam that 4th there is something very wrong.

 

Yes the ridiculous amount of power our mods give us is a problem. But Saryn had a problem as well. No frame should benefit from killing the other abilities.

To add to that, I remember before DE got rid of ability mods that the majority of Saryn players that I was friends with didn't even have her other three abilities slotted. That speaks volumes on how the playerbase viewed her, in my opinion.

Edited November 5, 2015 by (PS4)KestralSylver

[Lancars]

It does seem tedious that you need to do a lot of setup just to get the huge gain of damage. Its good on paper but live it doesn't work.

 

to spread spores they need to be close and you don't get to many clusters sometimes. So units end up dying before i can spread the procs to everything and then hit them with a Coup de grâce. Its to much setup.

 

But i don't focus on that i use her molt for regen and her venom lash so i can stay in the close fights. I don't bother with spore or miasma to much (It still has the quick CC so its okay)

Edited November 5, 2015 by Lancars

[(PSN)Mordeshkaiser]

If Regenerative Molt still works the same, running strictly Miasma is doing it wrong in the first place. I used her P4TW setup at first until I got Regen Molt, now I'd never go back to that static boring playstyle when I have a fun frame that can tank, heal, move around and just be more fun overall. The fact that her other abilities help tie into Miasmas damage makes things more interesting now as well. Can't wait to try her out when her rework hits consoles. When you learn how to play her the way she is now, it should feel like a buff I'd imagine.

[rawr1254]

Yea this rework is hell with her...The range on all her abilities is so low and you NEED the most range with 3 out of a 4 of her abilities so now your stuck needing Overextended+Stretch on instantly making Str low. Now you gotta add str which either lowers duration and or efficiency to be good. I found a kinda happy medium of 160% eff 245% rng 95% duration and a low 120 something str. And then even with that build it chews through energy like crazy I HATE the fact that to get that good damage from 4 I have to press 2>1 on molt>4. THATS TOO MUCH SETUP. And then even after all that the damage still feels lackluster after like 10 minutes/waves. Oddly enough even using only my skill I find myself usually having the top kills. Was in an ODS and had 1500 kills at the 40 minute mark. So idk if there's damage Im just not noticing or what. It is nice that Miasma blows up molt with spores on her giving enemies guaranteed toxin+viral with the explosion but it's still so crappy.

[blasron]

i try saryn today after the rework. She already wasen't in my book has a good team working frame and now well you are screw when you play in a team with her. Since , you need to use all of her power to make her usefull (spamming her first on anything 2 and if you are sucidal her 3) to make her 4th usefull and by the time its done the other player either have kill the enemie or your are dead.

 

I could barely kill of a enemies on saturn casinis (they were 40+/ or 35minute in) since, she needed so much preparation to unleash her maximum capacity and i end up not killing enought to save my &#!. I end up using my gun and stop using any power, because she use all of what i had (the 225 energie) just for one blast.

 

If that rework was to show to player that she is good. Well it only prove that she was wasting place in my inventory. Like i already state She wasen't in my go-to or even my for the lolz list (limbo and mag are in that one) now she is in my: when i need a slot its bye bye time list.

 

Has for the new skin its a pretty one but i won't put a cent in that one for i won't use that frame again (i will grind the Prime varient to master and will sell that one too).

[Paradoxbomb]

Just a few random tidbits of feedback so far. I may come back to this or add something more in depth later:

 

-Not entirely sure the health reduction was necessary, and while the buffed armor was nice it doesn't really make up for it.

 

-As a small QoL change, it would be nice if pressing 2 while a Molt decoy is active detonated decoy without spawning a new one. Also given how much energy combining her skills requires, perhaps the cost of Molt should toned down to 35?

 

-Being able to attach Spores to Molt is a godsend, having a stationary target with which you can pop them really makes it easier to infect enemies, and the Spores themselves seem to be noticeably more effective all around. That said, it does still kind of suck that if an enemy dies without the spores popping, they basically go to waste. Perhaps an enemy who expires with spores still stuck to them could create a mini-sporeplosion, with reduced AoE and chance to spawn new spores? It would certainly be better than nothing.

 

-Kinda surprised Toxic Lash isn't a team buff. Saryn doesn't exactly have the best synergy with teammates due to Spore's mechanics, but other players being able to auto-pop them with their own melee attacks would help a bit.