Feedback Megathread: Saryn Revisited.

[kongajinken]

In regards to saryn's rework. It feels like the core identity of the frame was altered unfairly, she used to be a nuking mage class, and is now a dot melee class. The idea itself is more fluid and synergistic, but the old way of playing saryn is no longer valid. Its depressing to lose a style of play you used to enjoy playing. Like the old warframe you used to enjoy playing was deleted and replaced. I think the rework would be better if instead of making her a melee caster, they just scrapped her 3 and embraced her old mage persona.

[Generalsherman]

After more playtesting on Triton I really have to echo any complaints about her being too soft now. She goes down far too quickly to even attempt Melee with lv 40 Corpus and make use of toxic lash. Perhaps giving Molt or Toxic Lash some form of defense bonus might help?

 

A nice armor or health bonus while using Toxic lash would make her more durable and give me a reason to keep it up when I'm using guns.

[Exodess]

In regards to saryn's rework. It feels like the core identity of the frame was altered unfairly, she used to be a nuking mage class, and is now a dot melee class. The idea itself is more fluid and synergistic, but the old way of playing saryn is no longer valid. Its depressing to lose a style of play you used to enjoy playing. Like the old warframe you used to enjoy playing was deleted and replaced. I think the rework would be better if instead of making her a melee caster, they just scrapped her 3 and embraced her old mage persona.

 

The irony is, they made her even weaker in melee range due to the eHP nerf. It's like they don't know which way to take her.

[Rankii]

LOL

 

Broberon, my knight in shining armor. You actually outdamage Saryn and kill the same group of lvl 40 Corrupted Bombards faster and at a cheaper cost xD

 

Oberon confirmed as OP all-rounder/damage dealer. He earned the right for a deluxe skin :D

Oberon can out-damage saryn now.

That's some real #*($%%@ up stuff right there.

[RealPandemonium]

This Oberon out-damaging Saryn thing is bunk.

 

212% strength Reckoning deals 1325 Impact and 1325 Radiation damage.  

 

Level 40 Corrupted Bombards have 1822.72 armor, which confers 85.9% damage reduction.

 

Impact is reduced to 187 damage.

 

Radiation ignores 75% of Alloy armor, so in this case it's effectively 455.68, which confers 60% damage reduction.

 

Radiation is reduced to 530.

 

Total damage dealt is  530 + 187 = 717 per cast of Reckoning.  

 

 

Miasma with a 185% str build and both procs deals 7770 Corrosive damage over 4 ticks.

 

Alloy armor has no special interaction with Corrosive damage, so armor = 1822.72, conferring 85.9% damage reduction.

 

Corrosive damage total is reduced to 1096.  

 

If you count Viral proc (since Saryn can maintain it indefinitely with Spore and you need it to boost Miasma's damage anyway) then they effectively take 2192 damage.

 

1096 (2192) is significantly more than 717.  Oberon would have to chain-cast Reckoning to out-DPS Miasma.  Miasma would kill them somewhat more slowly than chain-casting Reckoning but with far less less energy spent and still leaving them stunned the whole time.  Also consider the non-trivial Toxin and Viral damage that may be chained to each target while this is going on.  

Edited November 7, 2015 by RealPandemonium

[Rankii]

This Oberon out-damaging Saryn thing is bunk.

 

212% strength Reckoning deals 1325 Impact and 1325 Radiation damage.  

 

Level 40 Corrupted Bombards have 1822.72 armor, which confers 85.9% damage reduction.

 

Impact is reduced to 187 damage.

 

Radiation ignores 75% of Alloy armor, so in this case it's effectively 455.68, which confers 60% damage reduction.

 

Radiation is reduced to 530.

 

Total damage dealt is  530 + 187 = 717 per cast of Reckoning.  

 

 

Miasma with a 185% str build and both procs deals 7770 Corrosive damage over 4 ticks.

 

Alloy armor has no special interaction with Corrosive damage, so armor = 1822.72, conferring 85.9% damage reduction.

 

Corrosive damage total is reduced to 1096.  

 

If you count Viral proc (since Saryn can maintain it indefinitely with Spore and you need it to boost Miasma's damage anyway) then they effectively take 2192 damage.

 

1096 (2192) is significantly more than 717.  Oberon would have to chain-cast Reckoning to out-DPS Miasma.  Miasma would kill them somewhat more slowly than chain-casting Reckoning but with far less less energy spent and still leaving them stunned the whole time.  Also consider the non-trivial Toxin and Viral damage that may be chained to each target while this is going on.  

Nope. Oberon needs to be nerfed now; he's too good.

Reworked! I mean oberon needs to be reworked ;)

[RealPandemonium]

Nope. Oberon needs to be nerfed now; he's too good.

Reworked! I mean oberon needs to be reworked ;)

That's what I thought.  There's already enough noise in this thread without such bullS#&$ (and now I'm contributing to it as well.)

[ArcusVeles]

I've got a simple fix.  Change Miasma to Gas damage, and make it last for ten seconds in a lingering cloud with a 20m range.  Make every tick of damage it causes slow enemies and weaken their damage, pop Spores occasionally, greatly slow + weaken enemies affected by Toxin proc(s), and heal Molt.  Remove that damage buffing nonsense and just add some cc/survivability in to the kit.

 

Also, make Molt's HP, shields and armor copy the Saryn's, and increase the Spore spread range to 20m and the Molt detonation range to 15m.

[AgentScarlet]

I don't have a strong opinion about the rework because I almost never used Saryn in the first place. The new skin isn't my cup of tea, but I wouldn't say it's bad - it just doesn't suit my tastes.

 

But, although I may not like the skin either, your arguments regarding why the skin is bad are so bizarre that I can't let it go without comment.

 

Why make a skin for the 3-5% woman population in this game?

3-5%? Are you serious? There's loads of women playing warframe. If you play public mode, you surely encounter them all the time.. and probably proceed to assume they are male, because most people don't use clearly gendered usernames. Hell, even if they do use gendered usernames, there's a chance you just aren't paying attention and assume they are male anyway - I have a feminine username, yet apparently other players still assume I'm a dude more often than not. You may wish to reconsider your assumption that the warframe community is 97-95% male.

A man playing as a female killing hordes of clone warriors = heterosexual

 

A man playing as a female while wearing a cute flower and big skirt while killing hordes of clone warriors =/= heterosexual

 

That crosses the line :)

There are so many things wrong with this argument, I'm not even sure where to begin. The assumption that gender presentation=sexual orientation, the assumption that every player views their frame as a representation of themselves instead of simply a character in a game, the belief that DE should cater exclusively to traditionally masculine straight men... the assumption that no straight man would want to look at a "girly" character while they play (because it's not like any straight dudes are attracted to "girly" women and would want something appealing to look at while slaughtering hordes of clone warriors... oh, wait)...

Edited November 7, 2015 by AgentScarlet

[--Sensei--]

I've got a simple fix.  Change Miasma to Gas damage, and make it last for ten seconds in a lingering cloud with a 20m range.  Make every tick of damage it causes slow enemies and weaken their damage, pop Spores occasionally, greatly slow + weaken enemies affected by Toxin proc(s), and heal Molt.  Remove that damage buffing nonsense and just add some cc/survivability in to the kit.

 

Also, make Molt's HP, shields and armor copy the Saryn's, and increase the Spore spread range to 20m and the Molt detonation range to 15m.

 

I was also thinking about changing miasma into a cloud of gaseous toxic smoke that basically debuffs and dmges the enemies over time. These are pretty good suggestions.

[(PSN)OMGITSNUKERXD]

she's funner to play certainly, but her usefulness has definitely declined. she deals less damage for much more energy, has become more frail thanks to the stat changes, and is now locked into requiring you to basically mod for all stats to keep even mildly afloat.

It would be better if the abilities cost less energy.

[DiabolusUrsus]

The frames that have the higher damage potentials are the ones that have already gotten reworks. Excaliber, Ember, Valkyr, etc.

 

Because getting reworked once means they will never be modified ever again. .__.

 

Ember's damage potential is more in burst than anything else, which sets her apart from Saryn. Excalibur and Valkyr depend almost entirely on melee mods for their damage output, which will likely change substantially when DE gets around to rolling out the multishot and damage mod changes at some point in the future. 

[PnOyLeeT]

she got a "berf" ... buff and a nerf at same time T-T

[fatpig84]

Just spam Spore, shoot em and Molt as needed.

 

I know there are those in the camp who use Spore + Lash but IMO, she is not durable enough to stand around to go up close and personal in my opinion. And that strategy falls flat on it's face in a void scenario with a Kill team of heavies and Nullifiers inside a bubble.

[fatpig84]

I've got a simple fix.  Change Miasma to Gas damage, and make it last for ten seconds in a lingering cloud with a 20m range.  Make every tick of damage it causes slow enemies and weaken their damage, pop Spores occasionally, greatly slow + weaken enemies affected by Toxin proc(s), and heal Molt.  Remove that damage buffing nonsense and just add some cc/survivability in to the kit.

 

Also, make Molt's HP, shields and armor copy the Saryn's, and increase the Spore spread range to 20m and the Molt detonation range to 15m.

 

Seems like a fair idea.

So she gets some CC as well.

[Heatnix.]

Just spam Spore, shoot em and Molt as needed.

 

I know there are those in the camp who use Spore + Lash but IMO, she is not durable enough to stand around to go up close and personal in my opinion. And that strategy falls flat on it's face in a void scenario with a Kill team of heavies and Nullifiers inside a bubble.

 

Yeah I can see how Spore is now more effective. Lash is annoying. She can't tank for a damn. So now Saryn is press1towsortawin cause you still need to do damage with your actual weapons.

[(PSN)OMGITSNUKERXD]

she got a "berf" ... buff and a nerf at same time T-T

I'll take note of that.

[DSMatticus]

Because getting reworked once means they will never be modified ever again. .__.

 

Ember's damage potential is more in burst than anything else, which sets her apart from Saryn. Excalibur and Valkyr depend almost entirely on melee mods for their damage output, which will likely change substantially when DE gets around to rolling out the multishot and damage mod changes at some point in the future. 

? Ember's damage potential is very stable. WoF stays on forever, and accelerant is cheap enough that you can cast it far more than you need it.

 

Her damage potential is very low, but in many circumstances better than the new Saryn's. And Ember backs up her damage with surprisingly good CC between accelerant and firequake.

[Volinus7]

+Chain toxin on spore

+Tough parry Toxic Lash

+No need for negative duration

+Viral spread wide

 

-Shorter stun

-Lower damage without chain

-Miasma needs both procs thus requires more energy

-Miasma doesn't do anything that synergize back to spore [doesn't pop spore on enemy and miasma damage cannot be chained by spore]

 

Old problems like

Low survivability

No reliable CC

Derp against high level armored heavy units

Low scalability

ARE NOT FIXED

 

Yeah she got "BERFED" [neither buff nor nerf] which is pointless and doesn't fix the major problems.

Edited November 7, 2015 by Volinus7

[fatpig84]

Well since I just confirmed that Oberon performs better compared to Saryn in damage (plus CC, Heal and utility), I think future adjustments to her kit should be competitive with Oberon's kit.

 

There's one big weakness for Oberon though, Radiation is extremely weak against infested so Saryn can beat him there (but it is Ember's realm though).

 

Except Radiation procs turn off all ancient auras.

Thats a good thing.

[XxCurtennoxX]

Every thread. Every single thread. Oh my god.

 

This is very simple. Decreasing an enemy's health by 50% is identical to increasing your damage by +100%. Completely identical. Think about it. Really. Just think. Please. Please think.

 

Now, start thinking about abilities in the game that increase damage by +100% (or close enough, or more than that). Now, ask yourself; are those abilities better than spore? Are those abilities on frames with better abilities in addition to that damage buff? The answer is yes and yes. I would rather have a roar Rhino than a spore Saryn. Because roar Rhino will give me +90% damage and brings massive CC with stomp, whereas Saryn is going to spend more time setting up her damage multiplier than Rhino will and only brings crappy CC with miasma. I would rather have an mprime Nova than a spore Saryn, because mprime comes with built-in debuffs. I would sometimes even rather have a resonance Banshee than a spore Saryn, because I don't mind aiming and Banshee has incredible CC.

 

Viral procs are not be enough carry a frame! They aren't actually good enough. They're a start, but Saryn needs other abilities that are also actually good, and she does not have those, because if she actually does her big combo the results are trash and so her only real contribution to difficult content is that lonely subpar damage multiplier.

Sure, other frames are preferrable. But it doesn't mean you can't leave the meta. Saryn is a decent option of you don't want to run with a standard "meta group" all the time. She's fun, so just don't follow the meta all the time.

[Windy_Wind]

Problem with Spores+Lash - it doesent scale past level 40 because of exponential armor growth, and becomes utterly useless later on (Tower 4 past rotation B). Basically put most of the complaints about her come down to the fact that there's no way to build her in a satisfactory way now - everything feels sub-par in the late game and she kills enemies too slow. In anything she tries she is outmatched by other frames. 

 

 

 

dude, If you're saying spore doesn't scale after lv 40 then you probably don't know what viral proc does right?

 

And btw all damage abilities like the old miasma don't scale great in late game really and even ash blade storm will suffer the same fate once those ancient healers come out. 

Edited November 7, 2015 by Windy_Wind

[w00tm0ng3r]

It feels like they made a good kit for another game. It'd probably work fine in a MOBA but Warframe isn't that kind of game. This isn't a game where you get to take 4 seconds to kill something with a DoT, have viral procs be your only team utility, and still be useful. The fundamental truth of Warframe is weapons scale better than powers (with a very few notable exceptions that scale infinitely), so if the only thing your frame does is flat damage it probably sucks automatically. The other problem with Saryn is DoTs just don't work in this game. Things die too fast in this game for several second long DoTs to be useful. Ash can proc a massive aoe DoT that does over 20,000 FINISHER damage and still nobody cares because that ability also does 9,000 damage up front.

[Balduron04]

Derp against high level armored heavy units

 

This is really the only thing that I think needs fixing. Corrosive proc on her maisma that can be spread via spores would solve this problem imo.

 

I have seen some really interesting ideas on how to modify her ultimate, but I think they are grasping for the old power levels. I would much rather her be able to reduce an enemy's armor over time so that her dots can be more effective.

[SquidTheSid]

Even if she gets buffed to not be as tanky as a piece of cardboard, her kit still has issues. 

 

Think about it, what does Saryn 0.2 offer that Ember or Excalibur cannot do, but infinitely better?

 

Excalibur has a reliable AoE CC that tremendously buffs melee damage, and his ultimate does hefty damage without resorting to cheap gimmicks. Ember's ultimate, with the augment, is a massive AoE CC machine, and Accelerant massively buffs her damage without forcing her her to rely on combos. Let's not even talk about Valkyr, who is the melee goddess. 

 

So, Saryn can run around in melee, with her only CC being the short stagger on Miasma and then die quickly as enemies burst her down while she relies on a weak DoT, a weak escape, and Viral procs. Not a very convincing case.

 

Even if we unnerfed her health (which was very shortsighted in the first place) and increased her armour to something like 300, her kit would still have issues. 

 

Some suggestions:

 

Spore should have a small slow (20%?) on affected enemies and maybe briefly stagger them when they come in contact with the spores. Bamn, you have some cheap and spammable CC.

 

Molt should scale like tectonics/snowglobe in that it has an invulnerability period where damage taken is added to its health. As it stands, it's way to squishy for most missions towards the later end of the star chart, let alone endless Void missions.

 

Oh boy, Toxic Lash. I don't see why this ability wasn't scrapped entirely, but it's pretty awful. For starters, it should apply to all weapons, not just melee (although the bonus can be doubled or tripled for melee to encourage melee play a bit more). Secondly, it should be an aura, so Saryn can actually contribute to her team. Third, scrap the augment and work it into part of the base ability, as it's pretty terrible on its own. 

 

Maybe as a new augment we could get health back on kills? Something that could give your team lifesteal would be nice, but there are plenty of options out there. Either way, the current one we have is insufficient.

 

And Miasma, oh boy. This skill either needs more utility, or massively increased damage (preferably both). Compare this to Frost's Avalanche, which does roughly 30% more damage at base (and not as a DoT), hard CCs enemies, and reduces armor. Miasma needs to be cheaper (like, 50 energy) and the base damage as well as the status multipliers should probably be at least doubled (it needs to hit like a truck given how much effort is needed to setup a combo). Corrosive procs on each tick wouldn't hurt as well.