Feedback Megathread: Saryn Revisited.

[Vardog]

Just had an idea, since they're pushing so hard for Saryn to be this debuffer Frame, what if popping Spores would spread all current status effects the target had on it? This would create a nice synergy between Spore and Saryn's weapon. You could spec your weapon into having multiple, 'weak' statuses or have a couple of weapons with different procs only to spread them across the whole map.

 

On second thought, that might be too strong, especially for a 1st ability, would be fun though.

Edited November 23, 2015 by Vardog

[Gurpgork]

Just had an idea, since they're pushing so hard for Saryn to be this debuffer Frame, what if popping Spores would spread all current status effects the target had on it? This would create a nice synergy between Spore and Saryn's weapon. You could spec your weapon into having multiple, 'weak' statuses or have a couple of weapons with different procs only to spread them across the whole map.

 

On second thought, that might be too strong, especially for a 1st ability, would be fun though.

I can only imagine this with Radiation.

 

Basically you'd halve everything's health with an ability that would quickly turn into a massively chaining Nyx Chaos... For 25 energy. It would be awesome, and there might not be as many questions regarding Saryn's viability, but yeah, that might be too strong of an ability 1.

 

But then again, Landslide is also an ability 1.

Edited November 23, 2015 by Gurpgork

[askaninja]

Apparently negative duration now causes Saryn's DoTs to deal the same total damage in a shorter amount of time.

 

YOU HAD ONE JOB!!!

 

If this is indeed true, I would suggest making all of Saryn's DoTs have a fixed ticks per second rate that cannot be changed, and duration causes the DoTs to stay active for longer, increasing the total number of ticks.

 

Aside from that not-so-minor problem, at first glance, I'd say these changes seem overwhelmingly positive. I look forward to using Saryn for the role she was always destined for: the DoT queen.

 

No, I disagree. DoT should be affected by mod's so we can have interesting combo's like we do for Speed Nova. Stop attacking creativity.

 

I also love the passive's they have. Hopefully DE makes passive's a trend. DE should add cold resist to frost, impact resist to atlas, fire resist to ember... etc

Edited November 25, 2015 by askaninja

[(XBOX)CanaryGoddess96]

Syarn shouldn't be debuffed or have changes to her abilities. She is a good warframe and shouldn't have no changes. Why make weak warframes even weaker and the strong weaker. We won't be able to do any damage to enemies if the keep getting changes and debuffs. My opinion not saying anything bad HALDOS.

[mcryseria]

Almost 2 weeks and still no updates DE? Wow, Saryn still needs ALOT of improvements, her rework is a joke. Another Rhino rework is coming in u18, I bet you guys won't have time for Saryn after that and Rhino was already reworked before. smh

Edited November 25, 2015 by mcryseria

[TheBrsrkr]

Almost 2 weeks and still no updates DE? Wow, Saryn still needs ALOT of improvements, her rework is a joke. Another Rhino rework is coming in u18, I bet you guys won't have time for Saryn after that and Rhino was already reworked before. smh

. You know, if I were to go into literally any other company that provides a service and make changes to my entire product based on two weeks of usage statistics, I would most likely be fired on the spot.

[YasaiTsume]

Almost 2 weeks and still no updates DE? Wow, Saryn still needs ALOT of improvements, her rework is a joke. Another Rhino rework is coming in u18, I bet you guys won't have time for Saryn after that and Rhino was already reworked before. smh

Be patient.

Maybe it all comes together when U18 hits 

[Buzkyl]

Be patient.

Maybe it all comes together when U18 hits 

 

It won't, Saryn will likely be revisited in a month or 2 at the soonest.

[Autongnosis]

. You know, if I were to go into literally any other company that provides a service and make changes to my entire product based on two weeks of usage statistics, I would most likely be fired on the spot.

^ This so much. DE is still a business company :)

On the topic of the rework itself, i personally enjoy it. Although do mind i did not play the old Saryn (boring nuker with a locked build - not for me).

Imho though this rework brought out the glaring shortcomings of Saryn's survivability that were buried under the rubble that was the old Miasma that made it hard to evaluate it due to how quickly she killed stuff.

What i would personally like would be for Saryn to get a mini stagger on more of her skills for a modicum of utility, and to expand on the proc stacking mechanic. I think that's a really good idea, and i don't see why it should be limited to Miasma to be honest.

You could change Miasma to be a Corrosive DoT with either a single forced proc or a prock for each tick, and then say modify her skills so that they gain +100%/200%/300% damage if the target has 1/2/3 of these procs:

- toxic

- viral

- corrosive

Obviously you'd need some number tweaking for the damage numbers at that point.

[mcryseria]

. You know, if I were to go into literally any other company that provides a service and make changes to my entire product based on two weeks of usage statistics, I would most likely be fired on the spot.

 

Well good it's a thing you're not. Saryn needs still needs improvements, and 2 weeks should be enough to make minor tweaks instead of completely ignoring/leaving her alone. DE has a track record of just letting things sit indefinitely. If in 2 weeks and we still don't have anything then they will eventually just forget about this until more people actually bring this up again.

 

Be patient.

Maybe it all comes together when U18 hits 

 

I am patient and I really do hope they won't just ignore her. She's my main warframe for over 3 years now and I just want her rework to be worthy of calling it a 'rework'. It's nice that they added these changes, but not everything is perfect. Look at Excalibur, Rhino and Ember. Now those are reworks, Saryn just had adjustments made on her skills, nothing really new. Those adjustments need adjustments to really make her more viable. Sure it's fun spamming venom, but they just moved number 4 to number 1.

Edited November 26, 2015 by mcryseria

[TheBrsrkr]

Well good it's a thing you're not. Saryn needs still needs improvements, and 2 weeks should be enough to make minor tweaks instead of completely ignoring/leaving her alone. DE has a track record of just letting things sit indefinitely. If in 2 weeks and we still don't have anything then they will eventually just forget about this until more people actually bring this up again.

A track record as shown by? We went over this in the last page, you know. Two weeks of usage statistics means absolutely nothing. If I was doing a biology paper, it would be thrown out. If I was in charge of HR, the board would laugh in my face. But when you're a game developer, it seems, you can just pull your statistics out of Wukong's shiny butt on a frame not many people use in the first place and magically fix all the problems.

[Hixlysss]

I honestly love her rework. I just love how everything dies so quickly before I can even fire off my full power combos. The only and absolute only complaint I have for her is just how quickly she loses power.

 

To complete saryn I would do a few things. Toxic lash and Miasma should be toggle powers, to help with the energy drain they pull down. Spores shouldn't need to be popped to spread, they just have a chance to spread when they proc or you can pop them to have them spread more(Keeping with toxic lash's ability.) Finally, I'd buff her armor to around 300 base, drop her shields a little to balance out some OR make it so Toxic Lash also buffs primary and secondary weapons not just melee.

[Vardog]

So, DevStream #64 ended and there has been no mention of Saryn still being worked on. I hate to say this but I'm afraid this is as good as DE wants Saryn to be, a low tier frame with no place in a proper party.

 

Oh well, on the upside the new Archer Frame, Ivara looks pretty cool, might be a nice replacement for Saryn.

Edited November 27, 2015 by Vardog

[Djego27]

A track record as shown by? We went over this in the last page, you know. Two weeks of usage statistics means absolutely nothing. If I was doing a biology paper, it would be thrown out. If I was in charge of HR, the board would laugh in my face. But when you're a game developer, it seems, you can just pull your statistics out of Wukong's shiny butt on a frame not many people use in the first place and magically fix all the problems.

 

It doesn't work like this in video games, since once you done with something you just move to the next thing. You do it right the first time and with some adjustments(honestly very rare in video games, even by blizzard and they are the best in the buisness when it comes to ballance) or it will be more or less pointless before the next changes(again mostly OP or UP, hardly never hitting the spot it needs to be).

 

Saryn as it stands:

 

- same problems with the scaleability then before the rework, saryn falls off at exactly the same point(L80 ish)

- no more p4tw, cool however it did nothing at all to remove the need of spamming miasma to do dps

- toxic lash, something that could be your bread and butter with the forced toxic proc applied to all weapons and changed in scaling(make it scale of the full toxic damage of the weapon), what we got is a bit of energy back, limited to melee and to low in the percentage to really matter at high levels

- spores, add some CC, be it a stun when you appliy it or a speed reduction to units with the effect on it, in both cases it would give saryn and your team some needed CC at high levels

- decoy, o wait it is called molt, it simply dies to quick at high levels removing all the tactical options to detonate it when all units are close to it or to provide cover if you need to do a 5s revive, saryn is not tanky, saryn is not invisible and saryn needs it for dps/spores spreading, that are 3 good reasons why it should not die in a second or two at high levels

[RealPandemonium]

snip

What if they revised enemy level scaling so that we didn't need to go to level 80 to have a chance of losing?  If regular content mattered, then no frame would need game-trivializing bandaids.  

[akira_him]

What if they revised enemy level scaling so that we didn't need to go to level 80 to have a chance of losing? If regular content mattered, then no frame would need game-trivializing bandaids.

Well I guess regular content will never matter because now we have sorte missions

[RealPandemonium]

Well I guess regular content will never matter because now we have sorte missions

Maybe Damage 3.0 will lessen the difference between level 30 and level 70 enough to make them both matter in the same game.  Or, maybe they will scrap huge levels entirely because they make no sense.  

[Vardog]

What if they revised enemy level scaling so that we didn't need to go to level 80 to have a chance of losing?  If regular content mattered, then no frame would need game-trivializing bandaids.  

 

 

That's not the issue, Saryn's problem is her very limited (even more than before her rework since now you're forced into combo-ing your abilities for them to have any effect) kit which doesn't offer anything except some unscalable damage, a Viral proc and an insignicant ~3 second stagger that doesn't even work against all enemy types.

Even if you revised enemy level scaling she still wouldn't be picked over 12 other Frames that can do what she can do only better and more efficiently. She brings nothing significant to the table in a party setup, that's why she's still considered a low/mid tier Frame.

Edited November 28, 2015 by Vardog

[RealPandemonium]

That's not the issue, Saryn's problem is her very limited (even more than before her rework since now you're forced into combo-ing your abilities for them to have any effect) kit which doesn't offer anything except some unscalable damage, a Viral proc and an insignicant ~3 second stagger that doesn't even work against all enemy types.

Even if you revised enemy level scaling she still wouldn't be picked over 12 other Frames that can do what she can do only better and more efficiently. She brings nothing significant to the table in a party setup, that's why she's still considered a low/mid tier Frame.

For the record, Miasma's stagger lasts almost 5 seconds on humanoids, ~4 on most Infested, and ~3 on Chargers and MOAs.  The only enemies not affected are Drones/Ospreys.  

 

Saryn, strictly compared against other options, is only really lacking in super-cheese that can be used to trivialize all enemies regardless of level.  She doesn't have long duration mass CC, she doesn't have invulnerability (or effective invulnerability,) and she doesn't have have astronomical damage potential.  None of these things are necessary to have a fun, effective warframe.  The only things these frames provide over any others are: 1) trivialization of gameplay, allowing endless missions to go on indefinitely and ensuring mission success regardless of circumstance, 2) training wheels for weak/lazy players, and 3) more efficient factory farming.  Those three elements are arguably at the heart of Warframe's poor balance and meaningless play once you reach a certain point.  Far from essential, they are detrimental to the game design-wise.They may, however, be profitable for DE to support to an extent, due to the grindy nature of the game and the many casual players who are willing to support the game.  I think DE should eliminate dependence on bad design going forward, though, instead of supporting it with more bandaids and more poor design precedents for players to grow accustomed to.  

[TheBrsrkr]

It doesn't work like this in video games, since once you done with something you just move to the next thing. You do it right the first time and with some adjustments(honestly very rare in video games, even by blizzard and they are the best in the buisness when it comes to ballance) or it will be more or less pointless before the next changes(again mostly OP or UP, hardly never hitting the spot it needs to be).

It doesn't work like that according to who? According to what? Two weeks of usage statistics is nothing. We already got 2 patches, the week after. 2 weeks of people playing with an already not as popular frame is not enough time to gather information on the swath of changes Saryn needs. Or anything else long term, for that matter.

[akira_him]

It doesn't work like that according to who? According to what? Two weeks of usage statistics is nothing. We already got 2 patches, the week after. 2 weeks of people playing with an already not as popular frame is not enough time to gather information on the swath of changes Saryn needs. Or anything else long term, for that matter.

You can only find usage %, % of damage, kills by ability/ability use from statistics, you cannot find why people use/not use her, why they use/not use those abilities, are those abilities actually effective so it is spammed/not spammed/not even bother to use,

while all these reasoning already being discussed in this thread

you don't actually need statistics, they just need to read this thread, provided that the percentage of usage could be decreased to a point that takes forever to have enough sample to make a fine statistic number

[RealPandemonium]

you don't actually need statistics, they just need to read this thread

What about all the players who don't use the forums?  Their opinions tend to be quite different from what you see here.  

[akira_him]

What about all the players who don't use the forums?  Their opinions tend to be quite different from what you see here.  

I am not sure will Devs read anything outside this official forum and in game-chat, if they have opinion/feedback on the changes, the only proper way to do is to slap their opinion right into the devs' faces but not hoping dev read their minds by some sort of telepathy

Edited November 28, 2015 by akira_him

[taiiat]

I'd prefer if DE did not lie and say yeah feedback thread we'll listen

well, if you wish to wear a Tinfoil Hat like that and assume things that are infact incorrect, you can do that. doesn't make it more correct though.

 

You could change Miasma to be a Corrosive DoT with either a single forced proc or a prock for each tick, and then say modify her skills so that they gain +100%/200%/300% damage if the target has 1/2/3 of these procs:

- toxic

- viral

- corrosive

Obviously you'd need some number tweaking for the damage numbers at that point.

there's a problem with expanding Status Effect synergy as Corrosive Status lasts for less than a second on an Enemy. nowadays the visual Effect is left to represent that they have been hit by a Corrosive Status previously though.

 

so it's either going to be a Damage Bonus you can never get because it disappears in less than a second (but stats would still be balanced around assuming you can...), or you can mindlessly apply the Damage Bonus infinitely to everything because the Effect is permanent... which would not be engaging, just incentivizing spraying Enemies with Corrosive Status.

 

and tbh just a Damage Bonus is kind've lame. things dying faster, mkay i guess, but it's not very visually interesting or rewarding or Et Cetera. 

 

You do it right the first time and with some adjustments

 

- toxic lash, something that could be your bread and butter with the forced toxic proc applied to all weapons and changed in scaling(make it scale of the full toxic damage of the weapon), what we got is a bit of energy back, limited to melee and to low in the percentage to really matter at high levels

'do it right the first time' is impossible because someone doesn't like what you do, no matter what you do.

and there's always other ways you could achieve a goal, and someone will have preferred that way instead of the way you chose.

 

you.... do realize that Toxic Lash is the listed Percentage of your Melee Weapon's TOTAL Damage in extra Toxin Damage, right? all of your Damage regardless of Damage Types?

that's why it's 30% now instead of 75%. because it's still a big net gain.

 

you don't actually need statistics

*laughs*

 

Statistics don't tell an entire story, but you definitely need them. Data Analytics is critical, it's part of what makes the planet turn.

Digital Extremes catches a lot of Data... not just Percentage of Warframe usage.

pretty much anything Digital Extremes thinks might be useful data to have in the future, they store it.

[akira_him]

well, if you wish to wear a Tinfoil Hat like that and assume things that are infact incorrect, you can do that. doesn't make it more correct though.

 

there's a problem with expanding Status Effect synergy as Corrosive Status lasts for less than a second on an Enemy. nowadays the visual Effect is left to represent that they have been hit by a Corrosive Status previously though.

 

so it's either going to be a Damage Bonus you can never get because it disappears in less than a second (but stats would still be balanced around assuming you can...), or you can mindlessly apply the Damage Bonus infinitely to everything because the Effect is permanent... which would not be engaging, just incentivizing spraying Enemies with Corrosive Status.

 

and tbh just a Damage Bonus is kind've lame. things dying faster, mkay i guess, but it's not very visually interesting or rewarding or Et Cetera. 

 

'do it right the first time' is impossible because someone doesn't like what you do, no matter what you do.

and there's always other ways you could achieve a goal, and someone will have preferred that way instead of the way you chose.

 

you.... do realize that Toxic Lash is the listed Percentage of your Melee Weapon's TOTAL Damage in extra Toxin Damage, right? all of your Damage regardless of Damage Types?

that's why it's 30% now instead of 75%. because it's still a big net gain.

 

*laughs*

 

Statistics don't tell an entire story, but you definitely need them. Data Analytics is critical, it's part of what makes the planet turn.

Digital Extremes catches a lot of Data... not just Percentage of Warframe usage.

pretty much anything Digital Extremes thinks might be useful data to have in the future, they store it.

I know they catches a lot of data, like in what level/mission they use Saryn, and I didn't just mentioned % of use

when it comes to statistics of Saryn, they are pretty much predictable

statistic only will prove the changes are working as intended, but doesn't indicate what needs to be changed further

like the #4 spamming statistic in the past just indicates there is some problem on Saryn, but doesn't indicate what is the problem behind that, and we get all this $hitstorm