Feedback Megathread: Saryn Revisited.

[Djego27]

It doesn't work like that according to who? According to what? Two weeks of usage statistics is nothing. We already got 2 patches, the week after. 2 weeks of people playing with an already not as popular frame is not enough time to gather information on the swath of changes Saryn needs. Or anything else long term, for that matter.

 

Acording to my own experience with online games over the last 15 years. Or can you name a single good example where devs came back to something and did a useful change within less then 12 months? Because I for myself can't and it is not a miracle, but simply how software development works, you do changes and then it is done and you move to something else. Otherwise you would be not able to finish anything.

 

 

What if they revised enemy level scaling so that we didn't need to go to level 80 to have a chance of losing?  If regular content mattered, then no frame would need game-trivializing bandaids.  

 

Enemy scaling has little to do with it.

 

It is just the main concept of a dps frame what is simply lacking in saryns case, just look at other casters:

 

Mag got the best scaling, even if it is limited to just one faction since the healer changes in the void and a lot of CC to go with it.

Ember got good scaling(despite the general opinion) and a lot of CC.

Mirage got good scaling and most likely the most powerful aoe CC to go with it.

Nova got good scaling dps with antimatter drop and at consistent AOE CC mechanic with mprime.

Even Frost got very solid dps(highest or 2. highest on Triton when I play frost there) and is one of the best CC frames in the game with his ice wave impedance augment and the good use of globes at spawning points.

 

Melee:

 

Chroma got good scaling and a massive tank, with not to much CC(still I would call effigy more practical then what saryn got with molt).

Valkyr got good scaling and a massive tank, CC mostly comes from your melee weapon, still more practical to keep stuff knocked down for CC because you can take hits, even without useing hysteria. A good melee weapon, skilled melee use and eternal war will easy carry you further then saryns misama.

Excalibur, while not so tanky got very good scaling dps, is not limited to melee only with it and EB even with the LOS mechanics in WF it is still solid CC that works at any level. While most people just do the E spam, it is in no way limited to this for dps, like saryn is still limited to miasma spam.

 

Saryn was mostly used at lower levels for a easy press 4 nuke. The frame was reasonable good at this that the lack of CC and other stuff did not matter for most people for this tasks. While you can still nuke with it, it is by far not as energy efficent at lower levels as it was(allready fairly questionable in the age of perma WoF and maim). DE hoped that the changes should help with the scaling and going away from miasma spam, however they don't really do. Saryn falls off at the same point(with more energy issues on top of it) and your only tool for both dps and CC is miasma, what is the reason why you are still after all the changes limited to miasma spam.

 

Saryn is more or less at the same point as Ember was last year while accelerant did not restun during the full duration of it and you had close to zero armor, the simple lack of practical CC did make the frame a lot worse then it had to be. Pressing 4 did kill you before you where out of the casting animation, pressing 3 was a ring of fire that does nothing when you get shot to death in the meantime, pressing 1 does CC a single unit, while you get shot to death by 10 others in the meantime. Ember at this point didn't even had the problem with the scaling like Saryn does, simply because your dps is not limited to pressing 4 over and over again. While people claim that the WoF change made Ember viable, it actually where the changes last year that made the frame really playable.

 

 

 

'do it right the first time' is impossible because someone doesn't like what you do, no matter what you do.

and there's always other ways you could achieve a goal, and someone will have preferred that way instead of the way you chose.

 

you.... do realize that Toxic Lash is the listed Percentage of your Melee Weapon's TOTAL Damage in extra Toxin Damage, right? all of your Damage regardless of Damage Types?

that's why it's 30% now instead of 75%. because it's still a big net gain.

 

While you can't please everybody you can at least address obvious flaws(lack of CC and dps without hammering 4 are not that hard to spot), that where there before the rework as well even while not that obvious given that all what people did with it was pressing 4.

 

Can you give me a dps number on saryn with toxic lesh? Because compared to Ember, Chroma and Mirage it falls just flat on the face when it comes to provide useful damage scaling from my testing experience, not even takeing into account that the limitation to melee only on a not really tanky frame that is mostly used for AOE DPS is questionable at best. I can get more out of Ember melee only then Saryn and Ember is by no means really a good melee frame. Accelerant is in many ways more limited to specific weapons, in overall range and on the weaker side of dps buffing, it is still a lot more practical, since it provides CC, it works with ranged and melee weapons and does significant more damage, even with a overextended AOE CC build for something like 60 waves solo ODD you still hitting a fairly solid 80k damage single shot with weapons like a fire modded vaykor hek(what is still like a 200% overall damage buff compared to modding it with the correct damage types on other frames).

Edited November 28, 2015 by Djego27

[TheBrsrkr]

Acording to my own experience with online games over the last 15 years. Or can you name a single good example where devs came back to something and did a useful change within less then 12 months? Because I for myself can't and it is not a miracle, but simply how software development works, you do changes and then it is done and you move to something else. Otherwise you would be not able to finish anything.

Halo 2 and 4 multi-player? Planetside 2? Warframe ? League? That's just off the top of my head. What part of "we're collecting usage statistics so we don't jump to conclusions" sounds like "done" to you?

[Exodess]

Halo 2 and 4 multi-player? Planetside 2? Warframe ? League? That's just off the top of my head. What part of "we're collecting usage statistics so we don't jump to conclusions" sounds like "done" to you?

 

City of Heroes started getting much better about their balancing near the end of their life cycle as well.

 

But seriously, it doesn't take a whole lot of depth to see Saryn needs a few of the aforementioned-a-million-times-in-this-thread tweaks (namely the 5-second Molt invulnerability recommendation, and to remove the irrelevant HP/Armor change) to resolve the strongest arguments. These could hardly be called balancing issues, and it is purely the devs being stubborn.

Edited November 28, 2015 by Exodess

[TheBrsrkr]

City of Heroes started getting much better about their balancing near the end of their life cycle as well.

But seriously, it doesn't take a whole lot of depth to see Saryn needs a few of the aforementioned-a-million-times-in-this-thread tweaks (namely the 5-second Molt invulnerability recommendation, and to remove the irrelevant HP/Armor change) to resolve the strongest arguments. These could hardly be called balancing issues, and it is purely the devs being stubborn.

At this point, you're just assuming the devstream don't want to do it because they don't want to do it. They told us what they were doing. We know how they do it. Wait. Tinfoil hat theories do nothing but spur on bitterness.

[Exodess]

At this point, you're just assuming the devstream don't want to do it because they don't want to do it. They told us what they were doing. We know how they do it. Wait. Tinfoil hat theories do nothing but spur on bitterness.

 

At this point, you're just in denial.

[TheBrsrkr]

At this point, you're just in denial.

Call me what you want, but I don't see why I should expect and demand drastic and immediate changes after 2 weeks of data collection on usage on the grounds that "it's obvious" and the devs are "just being stubborn".

[Exodess]

Call me what you want, but I don't see why I should expect and demand drastic and immediate changes after 2 weeks of data collection on usage on the grounds that "it's obvious" and the devs are "just being stubborn".

 

And round and round we go...

 

It doesn't take a whole lot of depth to see Saryn needs a few of the aforementioned-a-million-times-in-this-thread tweaks to resolve the strongest arguments. These could hardly be called balancing issues, and it is purely the devs being stubborn.

Edited November 28, 2015 by Exodess

[zendian]

well,toxic lash adding the total damage 30% as toxin damage

 

It sounds good but it have some logic problem on games working way.

 

 

Melee should effect enemy as soon as possible, but toxin or lash power and the function with spores is not strong enough to support melee 

Toxin damage effect by time,it far away from melee weapon logic.

Lash power not enough to kill a 30m+ heavy grineer even in Phobos survival mission ..so the haevy grineer in void...

Every spores give 2 energy,so you need to use your melee to break at least 10+ spores to balance your energy cast , even 29+ spores to make power spot  in full 175% efficiency

 

 

Second saryn is not strong like atlas or valkyr , she cant wait for toxic damage work by time at melee risk

Even you use miasma to cover yourself ,miasma  need very much energy to make CC and miasma also need ranges to make it save on your action.For example, 200% duration miasma give saryn only 6s to cover and run out energy. It will decrease range  and you got only 6S cc

 

 

You have to make your efficiency,range and duration at level  to protect yourself.

There is no slot to build your strength ,so basically adding 30% total damage as toxic damage is not worth it between the high risk when you swan your weapon at any situation.

 

My personal reason for use saryn with melee weapon in game only because I like it ,but it really bad no matter it add 75% elemental toxin damage or adding 30% total damage as toxin.

 

 

It up to you,DE. 

Edited November 29, 2015 by zendian

[Djego27]

Halo 2 and 4 multi-player? Planetside 2? Warframe ? League? That's just off the top of my head. What part of "we're collecting usage statistics so we don't jump to conclusions" sounds like "done" to you?

 

I am not familiar with the other games, but I would not put Warframe up there. Some things did improve during my 1 year in the game, like Ember, a lot of bugfixes, reworks of stuff like Frost(where it actually was less required) and Excalibur(while I am not a big fan of getting blinded by a Excalibur player during missions it is a lot better then the old "need 2 Excalibur and 1 Trintiy for drako" 4 spam gameplay).

 

Other stuff like the shotgun rework did actually remind me a lot of the blaster rework in EvE, where it was not so much about fixing issues as pleasing players. The result is that shotguns are as bad as before the update in many cases, it just changed the types of shotguns players use(by very obvious design decisions, I mean there is no good reason left to use something else then Hek/Tigris) and created further issues with stacking the damage to high on the Hek and Tigris at medium to long ranges(the shotgun buff was the the sniper buff, it just happend to be applied to another weapon class). There where no patch notes, not a single comment if somebody actually is still looking into the thread about the changes before it was removed or any kind of feedback. Shotguns did need a helping hand, they actually still do and should actually be fixed in the status department, with viable reload speeds(strun, sobek) and utility, not just by slapping tons of dps on 2 of them and calling it a day. Currently I have a hard time to even justify my prisma grakata over the vaykor hek against armor and the prisma grakata is the best corrosive status weapon in the game(with primed ammo mutation even halve way self sufficent up to 60 minutes solo void survival) since the boar prime and strun wraith nerfs in U17. This is how out of ballance status to dps solutions are currently and how pointless status shotguns did became with the changes.

 

I could go on about damage 2.0, the mod system, armor scaling, fairly weak counters to it outside ignoring the hole mechanic with 4 CP or frames like Limbo or Hydroid(that is actually a lot better then most people think).

 

Saryn with some CC added to spores, scaling surviveabiltiy to molt and reasonable dps scaling with toxic lesh isn't the most powerful frame in the game, it would be on the same page as many others when it comes to utility, surviveability and a good step forward away from the need to spam miasma, since all the changes did nothing to slove this particular problem. Nobody likes spamming 4, be it DE, the players(because it is the most boring thing in the hole game) or the general opinion about it. However if you want to move a frame that was like the poster girl of press 4 to win(at the cost of wrecking all other skills for that build) into a more engaging gameplay(what is a good thing), you need to make the other skills sufficent enough to provide that surviveability, damage scaling and utility that the frame is viable and useful without spamming the 4 button.

 

Spores is a functional and useful skill, it just needs some kind of CC added to it to offer useful surviveabiltiy to Saryn and your team.

Molt is also a functional and useful skill, it just needs a tweak to work at high levels as well as it idoes on low levels.

Toxic Lesh is a useful skill, it is just to limited in scope(melee only), lacks sufficent dps scaling and it's own unique mechanic to scale toxic procs, what would add a similar complexity to the weapon choice for Saryn as on Ember(even a bit better, since toxic is stackable and fire for Ember is only useful for base dps scaling and the CC proc).

 

All this are logical and functional adjustments to the frame, if you want to go away from saryn == miasma, the frame should be useful without miasma, same as Ember is actually useful without WoF(I did play the frame with next to no WoF at high levels, since it was simply a waste of energy compared to just keeping accelerant up and melt faces with the pre U17 boar prime).

Edited November 29, 2015 by Djego27

[(PSN)big_eviljak]

I like to build some of my frames focused around one sometimes to abilities... Theyve made saryn to where its difficult to do that.

[RealPandemonium]

snip

You can't ignore enemy scaling problems since, pre-40, Saryn kills just as well as the listed frames, and possibly better (hands-free and minimal energy cost) in some cases with the right Spores setup. It's only after level 40 that armor scaling makes ttk skyrocket against Grineer, and hitting 4 still kills the Ferrite variants into the late 50s.

The frames listed all have infinite scaling [game-trivializing] mechanics and/or overtuned damage that has justified been by armor scaling and condoned due to DE's general negligence of the damage system.

Demand for frames that can kill 80+ or XXX level enemies (and make everything below that completely trivial) is what leads people to call Saryn bad. That demand exists due to DE letting bad design stay in the game for so long. Things like MPrime, Radial Disarm, Bastille spam, Prism lockdown (alongside damage that's no slouch, either,) HoM + Eclipse exploitation, and Shield Polarize's indefinite mathematical victory against Corpus, are all things that can easily be exploited to make game mechanics irrelevant. Overtuned damage potential on Excal and Ember also makes ttk near zero until 40 minutes into T4 (level 70+.) Effective invulnerability (or literal invulnerability) on frames like Chroma, Valkyr (who also has astronomical melee damage,) and Trinity (who also has other ridiculous options available) take all the risk out of missions, practically forever. People got so used to these that many players don't care about gameplay anymore, since there is none when these frames are being exploited.

Spores' perma-Viral proc on affected enemies (pretty much the whole tile with a long range build and at least medium spawn density) is a huge buff and incredibly useful overall (the only reason people have to trash this feature is that MPrime exists,) to say nothing of its DoT potential via spreading Toxin procs and mutual spreads among enemies.  

Decoy and Molt having no scalability is a bad thing that should change. I don't think anyone disagrees with that. On the other hand, I don't think that we should be able to drop a Molt and go to sleep, either. Molt doesn't start dying instantly until you hit the mid 50s... see a trend here?

Toxic Lash could be more attractive if its bugs were fixed and melee wasn't so unpopular (with blocking even less so) among most players.

New Miasma is more of a power that you use when you need to deal with a nasty Heavy/Eximus unit or a really bad situation, rather than your bread and butter "wipe everything" power. People are desperately trying to keep using it the way they used to (and you pretty much still can with something like a Gas Ignis and a long range Spores build,) which makes them overlook how useful Spores has become.  It's also irksome that people bemoan what is an overall 10% nerf in total damage when both procs are present.  Never mind that old Miasma was intended to have 1500 or 1875 total base damage, and only had 4500 base damage due to the -duration bug.  If we had gone from old Miasma's intended damage potential to the new Miasma's, I don't think the reaction would have been negative at all.  

New Saryn can be cheesy (perma Viral proc on the whole tile, boosted Miasma is still the strongest radial, Spore chains do potentially huge damage over time) but is reigned-in enough to not be especially exploitable. Pretty much all arguments that new Saryn is weak involve comparisons to exploitable frames. DE seem to have gone out of their way to not make new Saryn exploitable, which is a good thing. Maybe DE should cull exploitable elements of other frames and fix the damage/scaling system, instead of giving Saryn a niche among the game-trivializers and factory-farmers. Edited November 29, 2015 by RealPandemonium

[Djego27]

You can't ignore enemy scaling problems since, pre-40, Saryn kills just as well as the listed frames, and possibly better (hands-free and minimal energy cost) in some cases with the right Spores setup. It's only after level 40 that armor scaling makes ttk skyrocket against Grineer, and hitting 4 still kills the Ferrite variants into the late 50s.

The frames listed all have infinite scaling [game-trivializing] mechanics and/or overtuned damage that has justified been by armor scaling and condoned due to DE's general negligence of the damage system.

 

I don't ignore enemy scaling, it has just little to do with issues in saryns abilities. Working CC is just as important for a newer player at level 20 as for a older one at L40(with maxed HP mods and good weapons). The lack of this in both cases let you fail very quick. If WF would be all about L40, then nearly every weapon and frame in the hole game would be horrible overpowered for that kind of content. The ability to play at high levels and scale well doesn't have to go hand in hand with trivializing the gameplay. Trivial gameplay would be standing with a mag next to vauban, necros and loki before the healer changes in the void 2h into it and pressing your ammo/energy restore key every now and then as only distraction from shooting into a votex for hours and keeping disarm/shield polarise/desecrate up. That is trivial, because it requires close to no effort.

 

Playing a frame like Ember solo for a hour in the void however is not trivial, damage as high as you can get is still not sufficent if you can't break up 90% extra damage resistance(on top of 90%+ armor damage resistance) brickwalls created by healers with radiation status effects(what does require you to switch weapons a lot). Pressing 4 will not drop everything instant and is more a CC tool. Same goes for L140 chargers comming your way in wave 60 in ODD, the ability to CC it with fireball or a weapon  does not make this situation trivial, because there is no room for error and without a working tool against this you couldn't play this at all, no matter how good you are as player. The ability of a frame to be able to scale dps into high levels and haveing tools to not get instantly killed going to this levels does not mean it makes content trivial. Ofc if you stack the same setup and experience against L40 it is trivial, simply because the game got a ton of mod, weapon, frame and forma/arcane based modifiers that will improve the possible performance to a point where every shot kills and pressing 4 wipes the hole map.

 

Ember is done a lot better as overall useful dps frame(even before the perma WoF change, not many will agree, but it didn't change that much to people that bring some energy restores and play at high levels without 175% efficency). You have well scaling damage that does not force you to spam your 4 key but to think about what weapons to chose, how to mod them and how much you are ready to go away from energy efficency and HP based surviveablity for the dps you need to play at a certain level, you have tools to keep you alive where pressing 4 will not do the job for you on it's own and it is fun and challenging to play at high levels. Saryn in comparison lacks all this features, while pressing 4 will nuke more, quicker and more efficent at lower levels, everything is build around improving or interacting with your 4, what means once your 4 stops to be effective(L80 ish) the hole thing falls appart. While many claim that happens to Ember as well(even far earlier), the frame gives you tools and options to prevent that. This was not present on the old saryn and if the goal was to make the frame more interesting and go away from p4tw gameplay it should be present on the new one.

 

 

New Saryn can be cheesy (perma Viral proc on the whole tile, boosted Miasma is still the strongest radial, Spore chains do potentially huge damage over time) but is reigned-in enough to not be especially exploitable. Pretty much all arguments that new Saryn is weak involve comparisons to exploitable frames. DE seem to have gone out of their way to not make new Saryn exploitable, which is a good thing. Maybe DE should cull exploitable elements of other frames and fix the damage/scaling system, instead of giving Saryn a niche among the game-trivializers and factory-farmers.

 

I don't agree that the new saryn is weaker then the old one, both fall off litterally at the same point, that is how close they are in overall output if you figure in the viral procs(2.5k trition, 40 waves solo Xini at least in my tests).

 

My main complains are surviveability and options as dps frame beyond exactly that farming scenario you dislike where AOE nuke(was 4, now 1, toxic status weapon or molt and then 4) does everything what people expect you to do. At low levels in a farming group, the lack of CC doesn't matter since other frames will provide it or most likely everything will be dead after pressing 4. Adding this does not improve farming in any way.

 

I actually want to see Saryn much closer to what is possible with Ember or other frames, because in the opinion of somebody that played Ember all day long in the days where it it was considered as one of the weakest frames in the game, Saryn feels very limited(you could say weak outside of AOE nuke at low levels), lacks surviveability and tools to allow her to be viable beyond the point where 2-3 miasma will wipe the hole map. I don't expect to kill anything at L100 in the void or L140 in ODD with WoF, however this does not take anything away from Ember to be viable and useful at this point. On Saryn at this point you are left with a bit of extra melee damage(that will kill you in the process because you have no surviveabiltiy at melee range and no CC outside of spamming 4), a option to apply viral to a lot of targets(that can also be applied by a weapon) and a decoy that will die before you can cast spores on it. It just does not feel well rounded and useful to me and needs improvements.

 

It is not less p4tw then before the changes(if you don't take it literal that pressing 4 is all what a player can do, even at a low effort basis), however it is also not something where you can get out more out of it if you really want to play the frame, what is quite sad in my opinion.

 

Assuming what Ember can do is wrong and we would remove weapon damage scaling from accelerant and instant CC from accelerant, fireball and fire blast because of it. Would it matter at low level farming(what is the thing next to everybody is useing the frame for currently)? No absolutly not. I could still do my 8 rounds of interception solo or nuke 20 waves in a defence without that. However would it give me a reason to ever play the frame outside of low levels or even main ember if it is just limited to that and only that? The awnser is no. I am not a fan of p4tw gameplay just as much as you are, but if you don't provide options to actually do more than this with a frame it will be limited to just that and fairly ineffective outside of it. 

Edited November 29, 2015 by Djego27

[RealPandemonium]

snip

Why should level XXX enemies ever be relevant?  Should we support infinite scaling, or should DE re-balance the relationship between player power and enemy power so that defense stats matter and permaCC is not required past level 50?  Why balance for content that a player has no incentive to encounter in regular content?  Why not fix the system so that the challenge is in the first 40 minutes rather than waiting that 40 minutes just to reach a point where you might die if you mess up?  This is why the level scaling and damage system are relevant.  Levels <40-50 should not be considered "farming scenarios."  They should be considered "gameplay."   The vast majority of the game's content, literally around 95%, takes place at those levels.  If we have to stay in a mission for almost an hour to reach "gameplay," then we don't really have much of a game.  Fixing this issue would not remove level XXX enemies or infinite content, either; you could still reach that kind of gameplay by staying in the mission long enough.

 

Also, to be fair, what Ember has over Saryn is mainly Accelerant's damage multiplier  and [cheaper] stun, and Heat procs from the other powers.  Saryn trades that for big damage potential from Spores and DoT application from TL + Spores combo, which should be just as legitimate.  While Ember has more CC, what ultimately keeps her going against level XXX enemies is the gratuitous damage offered by Accelerant + powercreeped weapons, which is the central issue with infinite content in Warframe.  If DE never screwed up by giving us weapons that deal up to 12x the damage we need for regular content alongside powers that make enemies irrelevant, no one would expect, let alone demand, to be able to stay in endless missions for multiple hours.  Balancing for that standard ensures that regular content will always be meaningless and a "farming scenario" at best.  Is it not crazy to balance for something that's not even part of the regular game and takes 40+ minutes in an instance just to start experiencing?

 

I understand that you enjoy long endless missions and that that's your gameplay niche in Warframe, but wouldn't you enjoy the game more if more of the content challenged and stimulated you?  In order for that to happen, we need to tone down both enemies and players, and make them have a meaningful relationship at all levels of regular content, where in the current system enemies pretty much stop mattering once you have mods, and only fake matter at level 80+ only because they can one-shot you (but probably won't get to due to game-trivializing loadouts.)  Endless scaling is ugly in terms of balance, but the beautiful thing about it is that even if we re-balance the game for non-endless modes, endless modes will still be there to challenge you regardless.  It might not be exactly the same as it is now, but it would still be there for you, but with the extra bonus of having a game to play outside of it.  

 

Saying that the enemy scaling system is irrelevant shows that you are not considering an alternative to it.  The enemy scaling system, as it is now, makes most of the game not matter.  All the things that Saryn does now don't matter (relatively) because of it.  If the systems and their demands changed (no more permaCC/effective invulnerability requirement, no need for astronomical damage with stacked multipliers, regular gameplay matters) then Saryn could be just as legitimate as any other option.  

Edited November 30, 2015 by RealPandemonium

[Djego27]

Frames should be able to scale into infinite content to some degree, since it is part of the game. That does not mean pressing 4 should do the same thing at L100 as it does on L10, because for all frames beside Equinox and Mag(with big restrictions when it comes to guardian exiums or healers) this is mostly done for secondary effects like CC on the skills, not for the damage. 40 minutes are not trivial for most people, I had to do 13 revives during 40 minutes last time I joined a random T4S and everybody was running for the exit at the 40 minute mark because they could not deal much damage and got one hit killed by most stuff. Makeing 40 minutes trivival means you have a good understanding of what weapons, frames, mods, status effects and arcanes to use, have all this stuff farmed in the first place and to understand how the the hole game works overall. A lot of people also don't realy try stuff out and go with the common opinions of youtubers that Ember does fall off in dps quick, prisma grakata and mara detron are just mastery fodder and carrier is the best companion in the game.

 

It is not just the damage multiplier that allows Ember to perform a lot better at high levels, it is actually the ability as a player to prevent most situations to be sudden death by haveing the ability to do something against this with CC. It is not like Chroma or Valkyr where you have a ton of EHP, on Ember it just gives you sufficent tools to prevent damage that will be leathal at high levels, that damage will be still absolute leathal if you don't use them perfectly. My prisma grakata does not scale this high in damage(since it is a status solution with only one fire damage mod), same as my old pre U17 boar prime(even with 3 fire damage mods, the lack of range, spread and low base damage like on other good status weapons are the main limiters), however they still will keep you alive by status based CC and can manage the biggest EHP bricks(bombards and heavy gunners by her armor). Haveing some sort of constant or on demand CC on spores and a useful molt at high levels would help saryn a lot to archive the same level of player skill based surviveabiltiy as on Ember. Saryn with a toxic lesh rework would have just as much reasons to pick a status weapon(energy efficency, spores spreadding, CC, buffed toxic procs) as Ember(where you mostly need the CC and the ability to take down armor EHP brickwalls reasonable quick).

 

While I do like endless content solo for a challange, the game is progression based. When I did start with my 2. account the nef enyo alerts where fairly difficult if all you have is a braton(got a lot better after getting a latron), a mag(without reactor, forma and corrupted mods) and you solo them. With a fully modded prisma grakata today vs L45 grenier on ceres in a mobile defence it is like drive by shooting. It is just like WF is ballanced, where OP is a understatement for most stuff. While I don't think that gear should make the normal content trivial, the way scaling works currently does archive exactly this.

 

Enemy scaling is not irrelevant, however it should not compleetly make the frame pointless at high levels(if you play a frame just because of the 4 it is a choice, if it doesn't provide much more for people that want to play it beyond that it is a problem), what is currently more or less the case with Saryn. I don't ask for saryn being viable in endless content by just pressing 4. Scaling does matter, however you should still have the tools for a good player to stay alive and do damage beyond the point where you just stack damage with spores/molt and then press 4, over and over again. Regular gameplay is actually the thing you face with Ember at high levels, you don't have godmode, much hard CC and you need to shoot stuff for damage, this makes it interesting and with the CC options and damage buffs it is still fairly playable. That is not a bad thing or makes high level content trivial, it just means that a frame does not become pointless at high levels since it gives you all the tools to acutally play it. This is much more likeable and effictive then the current saryn. Even if you would want to play Saryn at this levels solo, currently you just don't have this options to you as a player. Your 4 is not a option or a usefull tool, because the frame has little to work with at higher levels without it. While I did see a ton of embers today in the invasions and the frame is more or less optimal to for this, it is not limited to just this, what is a very good thing.

Edited December 1, 2015 by Djego27

[Exodess]

New Saryn can be cheesy (perma Viral proc on the whole tile, boosted Miasma is still the strongest radial, Spore chains do potentially huge damage over time) but is reigned-in enough to not be especially exploitable. Pretty much all arguments that new Saryn is weak involve comparisons to exploitable frames. DE seem to have gone out of their way to not make new Saryn exploitable, which is a good thing. Maybe DE should cull exploitable elements of other frames and fix the damage/scaling system, instead of giving Saryn a niche among the game-trivializers and factory-farmers.

 

Thing is, they chose to keep Saryn at its present tier without any announcements (or presumably any plans at all) to remove scaling on the abilities you mentioned. If that is their ultimate intention, then DE is working in reverse and should have seriously considered culling the strongest skillsets before they started muddying up others. By electing not to go that route, they basically chickened out of upsetting one part of the player base at the expense of another, which is now provided a legitimate complaint. Balancing will always be judged on the strongest available options, and Saryn - while not a bad frame in its own right - simply cannot compare to its competition in a metagame environment in terms of damage or mitigation either mechanically or numerically. 

Edited December 1, 2015 by Exodess

[Autongnosis]

there's a problem with expanding Status Effect synergy as Corrosive Status lasts for less than a second on an Enemy. nowadays the visual Effect is left to represent that they have been hit by a Corrosive Status previously though.

so it's either going to be a Damage Bonus you can never get because it disappears in less than a second (but stats would still be balanced around assuming you can...), or you can mindlessly apply the Damage Bonus infinitely to everything because the Effect is permanent... which would not be engaging, just incentivizing spraying Enemies with Corrosive Status.

and tbh just a Damage Bonus is kind've lame. things dying faster, mkay i guess, but it's not very visually interesting or rewarding or Et cetera

Well duh, you're totally right. I still think it's a good mechanic to expand upon though, at this point maybe it would be more interesting to add in some CC and eventually visual efects for the proc stacking for example. Not that i have any formed idea mind, but imho the mechanic itself is very interesting and could be used to make Saryn's kit a lot more rewarding.

[Weltraumfred]

So, I've gotten over my salt and gave Saryn some extensive try outs.

 

The good news is that, despite using a fairly tanky build, I was still able to keep up damage wise with some of the more offensive builds of my buddies' frames. So offense is ok, and I am frankly glad that roomcleaner miasma is gone. It was boring for me and frustrating for my teammates. 

 

My most recent build is: Vitality, Steel Fibre, Armored Agility, Rage, Primed Continuity, Transient Fortitude, Stretch and either Redirection or Vigor. (I know Vigor is deeply suboptimal, but I feel the extra health can be of benefit when using Rage a lot).

 

My "tactic" was activating toxic lash, then sporing a dude and then going to town with my melee weapon and spread viral/toxic everywhere, and dropping miasma when I felt like I had the energy. That tactic is vulnerable to my buddies shotgunning the spore carriers early and aborting the spread, but whatever ... I neglected Molt a bit here, using it only in emergencies.

 

I am still not sure what the best weapon for spore spreading is. I think an ideal weapon should have good range and speed. I tried the scoliac for good results. The tonbo also seemed quite okay.

 

The bad news is that I was spending more time on my ! and out of energy. The energy thing was actually worse when I had Primed Flow instead of Rage on. Dropping an energy-pizza was the only way to even come close to full energy and I depleted it rather quickly. The getting my ! kicked part ... well ... lets say from all the changes to Saryn I am actually most salty for the health decrease (and meager Armor increase that doesn't compensate at all).

 

So, overall, I'd say that offense is decent, and the viral spread will probably get even more helpful once enemies get a bit tougher (I tried it on level 30-50). Toughness is, frankly, S#&$e, considering her lack of speed and her need to get into the fray for ideal power use.

 

So further opinions:

I am endlessly parotting myself here, but my opinion hasn't changed by my gaming experience. I really, really think that Saryn needs her health back and even more armor. 150 Base health, 250-350 armor would be my preference.

 

The block bonus on Toxic lash is kinda useless, except for that teensy tiny time window when you are closing in for melee. Any other time you're better off either shooting the enemy or beating the crap out of them. Especially the latter, with that new energy recorvery method that was tacked on (and is muchly appreciated). Since I think that Saryn has survivabilty problems, I'd replace it with a life strike like effect, as we have on Valkyrs Hysteria. (And I am usually already using a life strike melee weapon)

 

Despite having only little experience in the uses and abuses of Molt, I agree with a lot of other posters that it propably needs a survivability upgrade (like the snowglobe treatment, or plain higher health). A (perhaps) vaild alternative would be a slow effect on the Molt's explosion, making it less of a decoy and more of a trap.

 

 

 

A thing that I didn't do was taking an ignis, putting 100% status viral on it, viral everything, then miasma everything. A buddy of mine did it though, to devestating results.

Edited December 2, 2015 by Weltraumfred

[owendawgx]

Thought I would mention that Saryn's third ability (Toxic Lash) is currently the only melee buff ability in the game that doesn't offer any buff outside of melee usage.

 

Volt's Speed offers fast travel

 

Valkyr's Warcry offers armor +slow

 

Saryn's Toxic Lash offers nothing, unless you are actively using melee.

 

Perhaps it should have an innate 25% Reflex Guard chance while active?

[RealPandemonium]

My most recent build is: Vitality, Steel Fibre, Armored Agility, Rage, Primed Continuity, Transient Fortitude, Stretch and either Redirection or Vigor. (I know Vigor is deeply suboptimal, but I feel the extra health can be of benefit when using Rage a lot).

 

The bad news is that I was spending more time on my ! and out of energy. The energy thing was actually worse when I had Primed Flow instead of Rage on. Dropping an energy-pizza was the only way to even come close to full energy and I depleted it rather quickly. The getting my ! kicked part ... well ... lets say from all the changes to Saryn I am actually most salty for the health decrease (and meager Armor increase that doesn't compensate at all).

 

A thing that I didn't do was taking an ignis, putting 100% status viral on it, viral everything, then miasma everything. A buddy of mine did it though, to devestating results.

you don't have any efficiency on, let alone both mods; it's no wonder you're running out of energy.

 

Viral ignis is pointless because Viral already spreads like crazy from Spores, and many of your procs will still be Heat.  Do 100% Gas for the AOE Toxin procs; it spreads numerous Toxin procs simultaneously through Spores, while also ensuring that everything around is primed for full Miasma damage.   

[Weltraumfred]

As I said, Rage worked better than Primed Flow for me. If I'd add Flow and/or Streamline to the build at the expense of tank mods I reduce my energy problems but increase the spend time on my &amp;#&#33; and wave my pistol at people problems. Granted, Armored Agility ain't that good but it gives me extra speed to close into melee (additionally to Rush in the Exilus Slot which I forgot to mention), and Vigor gives extra Health for Rage (and I'm still trying to figure out if Redirection or Vigor works better for me).

[Redhux]

So Saryn is still awful at the moment?

 

I mean, LESS HP (Just why you m*ngr*ls???) and the Ultimate deals damage ONLY if you use another ability before? That is ULTIMATE BS.

 

 

Really DEVs, you should play the game instead of creating awful concepts.

 

And to be honest, you should stop sniffing coke. Your brains are going to be destroyed. As the game we're playing on.

 

 

 

What a disappointment.

[TheBrsrkr]

So Saryn is still awful at the moment?

I mean, LESS HP (Just why you m*ngr*ls???) and the Ultimate deals damage ONLY if you use another ability before? That is ULTIMATE BS.

Really DEVs, you should play the game instead of creating awful concepts.

And to be honest, you should stop sniffing coke. Your brains are going to be destroyed. As the game we're playing on.

What a disappointment.

Such feedback, your contributions will definitely make Saryn much better I R8 sarcasm/10

[Redhux]

Such feedback, your contributions will definitely make Saryn much better I R8 sarcasm/10

 

Thanks, i would be more happy if you were one of those DEVs.

 

Bad luck, you're not.

[Weltraumfred]

yeah, insulting people is pretty much not how feedback works.

[(PSN)aiptekfanboy]

yeah, insulting people is pretty much not how feedback works.

EXACTLY

a better feedback is that i deleted Saryn and since DE tracks usage numbers of warframes and warframe powers then this is a good way for me to give feedback on how I look at Saryn .