Can Valkyr Be Changed To Take Damage During Hysteria?

[Madraz]

Sure it can.

 

As long as mesa, trinity, chroma, zephyr and mirage lose their 95%-99% damage immunity WHILE keeping their ranged weapons.

 

As long as those get changed, so can valkyr.

 

Yes! Destroy it all!

[Synitare]

Seriously could not agree more. 

 

I've actually given this a lot of thought. Even made a thread about it myself a while back, but it still wasn't well received. Hysteria is a very sensitive topic for this forum, and for good reason. 

 

Valkyr actually has most of the stuff she needs in her kit already, it just needs to be expanded to the point where it's useful. My proposed changes were to make Rip Line cheaper (and give it a new augment), make Warcry recastable and roll its augment into the base ability, double the range of Paralysis and make it actually work, and then, and only then, nerf the invulnerability of Hysteria, but make her faster while using it and give her more reach. 

 

Although this still probably doesn't go far enough, since it doesn't address how to deal with Ospreys.

 

If Ripline was cheap enough to use (paralyze cheap) and actually worked like it should, this could be how she deals with aerial units. Rather than just plinking off their armor and not doing anything, it should immediately ground aerial units and pull them toward you. Paralysis just needs to be a radial effect with a 10-15m static range that puts enemies into a stasis effect similar to Rhinos Stomp rather than knockdown/stun, but also keeps them open to finishers. Just remove the damage component entirely. Warcry could also use better scaling, at least on par with Elemental Ward. 127% armor at 284% power strength is laughable.

Edited December 15, 2015 by Synitare

[(PSN)FunyFlyBoy]

Oh, didnt know that. Well thats good. Only thing i had heard was about them rebalancing some mods and master rank requirements. But its good if something is coming one day.

They mentioned in one of the more recent developer streams to address Mastery Rank and rebalance/place weapons correctly. Also stated they are toying with the idea of weapons actually leveling up in stats rather than just being static from Lv 1 to Lv30 with this not meaning an actual Nerf to base stats but a possible increase to base stats to something more once they figure out how to handle mandatory mods. As for enemies, they have been looking into options for that for some time. AI options do not work because we just nuke them. They do not like infinite scaling theirselves because it promotes the P4TW play style they hate and. actively have been changing with the changes to Mesa and Saryn. Last I heard, mandatory mod changes along with weapon balancing/MR is supposed to roll out with Star Chart 3.0. Plans could have changed since.

[Tsukinoki]

Seriously could not agree more. 

 

I've actually given this a lot of thought. Even made a thread about it myself a while back, but it still wasn't well received. Hysteria is a very sensitive topic for this forum, and for good reason. 

 

Valkyr actually has most of the stuff she needs in her kit already, it just needs to be expanded to the point where it's useful. My proposed changes were to make Rip Line cheaper (and give it a new augment), make Warcry recastable and roll its augment into the base ability, double the range of Paralysis and make it actually work, and then, and only then, nerf the invulnerability of Hysteria, but make her faster while using it and give her more reach. 

 

Although this still probably doesn't go far enough, since it doesn't address how to deal with Ospreys.

When Hysteria is the only thing keeping a frame from being utterly useless it will be sensitive.

But anyways:

If Rip Line was cheaper and faster it would be much more useful and viable.

The main problems I have with Rip Line is that is is slow traveling to its destination meaning that if you are trying to pull a target towards you or quickly escape your standing there too long and the target might move out of the way, and when you do try to use it to pull you somewhere it just moves you too slowly to either be useful as a get away tool or to get you within melee range.

I agree with making it dirt cheap, but I think it also needs to travel to the enemy much faster and pull valkyr a lot faster to really be useful.

Further, by making it travel faster and pull enemies faster it would give her at least some way to deal with aerial enemies to a certain extent.

And if Paralysis had double range then it would be actually useful.

Also you can aim up with paralysis and hit enemies above you, but again this requires range to reliably do and increasing the base range of it would help immensely in that regard.

Also providing a speed buff in Hysteria is necessary if you want to remove invulnerability, and increasing her reach in a few ways would also be very helpful.

This would go a decent ways to helping her kit.

 

If Ripline was cheap enough to use (paralyze cheap) and actually worked like it should, this could be how she deals with aerial units. Rather than just plinking off their armor and not doing anything, it should immediately ground aerial units and pull them toward you. Paralysis just needs to be a radial effect with a 10-15m static range that puts enemies into a stasis effect similar to Rhinos Stomp, but also opens them up to finishers. Just remove the damage component entirely. Warcry could also use better scaling, at least on par with Elemental Ward. 127% armor at 284% power strength is laughable.

I have to disagree about opening them up to finishers.

The problem with forced finishers is that Valkyr starts a long animation you can't cancel, and yet enemies are still hitting her and dealing damage.

And that would just get her destroyed.

In one of the beginning sortie missions, levels 50 to 65, I knocked over an enemy as Valkyr and then started pounding his face in.

By the time I regained control of Valkyr I had another 2K damage added to her counter in the top right.

If your surrounded by enemies who are all open to finishers then you're going to die trying to attack them because you'll just be locked into one long animation followed by another.

I honestly thing that if they go that way they need to make finishers a seperate command so you don't trigger them when you don't want to and end up killing yourself due to an inescapable animation.

[Synitare]

I have to disagree about opening them up to finishers.

The problem with forced finishers is that Valkyr starts a long animation you can't cancel, and yet enemies are still hitting her and dealing damage.

And that would just get her destroyed.

In one of the beginning sortie missions, levels 50 to 65, I knocked over an enemy as Valkyr and then started pounding his face in.

By the time I regained control of Valkyr I had another 2K damage added to her counter in the top right.

If your surrounded by enemies who are all open to finishers then you're going to die trying to attack them because you'll just be locked into one long animation followed by another.

I honestly thing that if they go that way they need to make finishers a seperate command so you don't trigger them when you don't want to and end up killing yourself due to an inescapable animation.

 

You could still do slide attacks without performing finishers. Or just add iframes to the finisher animations, which should really be the case anyway. At least until they fix detection and/or add more melee buttons. Really wish they'd expand melee to use at least two buttons. It would make finishers and combos so much more fluid.

[Tsukinoki]

You could still do slide attacks without performing finishers. Or just add iframes to the finisher animations, which should really be the case anyway. At least until they fix detection and/or add more melee buttons. Really wish they'd expand melee to use at least two buttons. It would make finishers and combos so much more fluid.

Fully agree with you here.

If they either added iframes to finishers or added more buttons it would solve the problem with finishers.  As it stands though...

And I really do hope they expand the melee system, it would improve a lot of things...

[Keltik0ne]

Valk is in an unfortunate position: with not a great deal of work, you can make a Chroma just as invulnerable but slap on any ranged weaponary you like.

 

With the same work on a Valk, you get nothing more and still have to melee everything.

[InoxMaximus]

HELL no.

[DarthValkyr]

Amz Sad Nao

[(PSN)big_eviljak]

Thats not diffrent, its the exact same with 1% diffrence. I feel like she should be more diverse than that.

If u want diverse try a new frame. If u want to play valkyr, then play valkyr. If u want to eat a tuna fish sandwich.....u dont eat a pizza....u eat a friggin tuna fish sandwich dont you?

[TwevOWNED]

Day 3: People still think this would be a nerf

[Tsukinoki]

Day 3: People still think this would be a nerf

And it would be.

You would be taking away the invincibility, which is the only thing keeping Hysteria viable and giving absolutely nothing back.

That is a straight nerf, and a pretty hard one.

Few facts since apparently you haven't read the thread:

-Making Hysteria give a flat 95% DR gives Valkyr less EHP than Chroma (who can get a 99% DR).

-She is still limited to a 2 meter melee range with no way to deal with enemies beyond that range safely without invincibility

-Chroma would be better than Valkyr in every situation if this change was made on its own like you're suggesting.

Because lets face it: without invincibility Hysteria would become actively harmful.

She would give up her ranged attacks and all safety granted from that for what?  Being forced into melee range with absolutely no upsides from activating it.

Why even use Hysteria at that point?  All its doing is stripping away your ability to use guns.

Without her invincibility she wouldn't be able to safely approach enemies without dieing and would also be completely unable to deal with aerial enemies.

Further:

With this change why would anyone choose her over Chroma?

Because with Chroma I can hit 99% DR and over 8x damage with all my weapons and wouldn't be limited to a 2 meter melee range.

All Valkyr could do is hit 95% DR while being limited to a 2 meter melee range.

And that is the problem you're ignoring for some reason while you claim that its not a nerf.

How is this not a nerf?

You're removing the only thing that keeps this skill viable and not giving anything back.

That is a textbook example of a nerf, and a huge one at that.

If you remove the invulnerability you need to give her something huge to make up for being forced into a 2 meter range to hurt enemies and having  absolutely nothing in her skill set that can safely deal with enemies outside of that range.

EDIT:

Lets just have one quick look at the frames that their ultimates force you to use a specific weapon:

-Artemis Bow: its a ranged weapon so Ivara can use it from a safe spot.  She can also benefit from energy regen and restores while using it and her kit can support her survivability while using it due to being able to become invisible in 2 ways.

-Exalted Blade: It has a 40 meter range and infinite punch through so Excalibur can safely use it against higher levels.  Further his kit allows him to blind the entire room and deal 4x damage to them with EB which drastically increases his damage output and again ensures his safety while using it.

-Primal Fury: It has a much larger range than Hysteria, and its melee counter causes it to get even bigger.  Further his kit has 2 skills which can keep him safe: Defy which just stops him from dieing if he has energy and Cloud Walker which makes him invincible and gives him a way to escape or sit there and regen energy and health because if he doesn't move it doesn't drain energy and has a decent duration.

-Hysteria: It provides invincibility as its only upside and nothing else, and has the shortest range.  None of her other skills allows her to escape damage from enemies she can't reach, nor allow her to quickly and accurately enough get into melee range of enemies.

So even just comparing her ability to other frames forced weapon abilities Hysteria is really lackluster and needs a massive overhaul to her kit in order to support not being invincible.

If you can't see how removing invincibility would be a massive nerf and make Hysteria pretty much unusable at higher levels....

Edited December 16, 2015 by Tsukinoki

[Madraz]

If u want diverse try a new frame. If u want to play valkyr, then play valkyr. If u want to eat a tuna fish sandwich.....u dont eat a pizza....u eat a friggin tuna fish sandwich dont you?

 

Yeah! But i want to eat tuna fish pizza, but its a god damn broccoli pizza, but i want my tuna fish pizza!

[Madraz]

And it would be.

You would be taking away the invincibility, which is the only thing keeping Hysteria viable and giving absolutely nothing back.

That is a straight nerf, and a pretty hard one.

Few facts since apparently you haven't read the thread:

-Making Hysteria give a flat 95% DR gives Valkyr less EHP than Chroma (who can get a 99% DR).

-She is still limited to a 2 meter melee range with no way to deal with enemies beyond that range safely without invincibility

-Chroma would be better than Valkyr in every situation if this change was made on its own like you're suggesting.

Because lets face it: without invincibility Hysteria would become actively harmful.

She would give up her ranged attacks and all safety granted from that for what?  Being forced into melee range with absolutely no upsides from activating it.

Why even use Hysteria at that point?  All its doing is stripping away your ability to use guns.

Without her invincibility she wouldn't be able to safely approach enemies without dieing and would also be completely unable to deal with aerial enemies.

Further:

With this change why would anyone choose her over Chroma?

Because with Chroma I can hit 99% DR and over 8x damage with all my weapons and wouldn't be limited to a 2 meter melee range.

All Valkyr could do is hit 95% DR while being limited to a 2 meter melee range.

And that is the problem you're ignoring for some reason while you claim that its not a nerf.

How is this not a nerf?

You're removing the only thing that keeps this skill viable and not giving anything back.

That is a textbook example of a nerf, and a huge one at that.

If you remove the invulnerability you need to give her something huge to make up for being forced into a 2 meter range to hurt enemies and having  absolutely nothing in her skill set that can safely deal with enemies outside of that range.

 

If Hysteria would be set to 95% DR even it would be better. Infinite Invincibility is broken concept and theres no defending that. With 95% DR Valkyr would get energy while in Hysteria to allow you to use your other abilities instead of just saving all to keep up your ultimate. The damage you would take would be so minimal anyway that you would only notice it on very, very long missions or in really high Sortie missions.

 

And yes she still has stuff going for her that Chroma doesnt have, such as complete CC immunity and you dont suffer energy drains while in Hysteria. And it would still infinite and easier to get full effect out of.

Edited December 16, 2015 by Madraz

[Tsukinoki]

If Hysteria would be set to 95% DR even it would be better. Infinite Invincibility is broken concept and theres no defending that. With 95% DR Valkyr would get energy while in Hysteria to allow you to use your other abilities instead of just saving all to keep up your ultimate. The damage you would take would be so minimal anyway that you would only notice it on very, very long missions or in really high Sortie missions.

 

And yes she still has stuff going for her that Chroma doesnt have, such as complete CC immunity and you dont suffer energy drains while in Hysteria. And it would still infinite and easier to get full effect out of.

The damage you take wouldn't be that minimal, either that or you stick to planets around Jupiter level.

I've taken a maximum Vex Armor build into just higher level planets and non-endless T4 missions and even then Chroma still takes somewhat-noticeable damage from enemies with near maximum Scorn values (and its really easy to get maximum scorn if you build a few shield restores or have a half-decent mag on your team).

Its not just endless missions that he starts feeling the pain from enemies.

And Valkyr would be taking quite a lot more damage than Chroma would and would be limited to having to run at enemies while Chroma can stay back and shoot them with his buffed gun damage.

Valkyr needs the CC immunity because she can't avoid it if she wants to attack enemies.

Meanwhile enemies won't even be able to reach Chroma to do any CC to him because he can attack them from whatever range his guns have (which is essentially infinite if he has a rifle) with massively buffed damage.

While playing Chroma if you have even the smallest amount of situational awareness then CC and energy drains become a complete moot point.

Further, Chroma can recover energy while using Vex Armor, and much more substantially and easily than a Valkyr could (and that is if you could find a mod to replace on Valkyr to slot in Rage, meanwhile Chroma just gets it from E. Siphon and Zenurik Passives without needing to give up a mod slot in his build).

She still would be falling woefully behind all of the other frames whose ultimates force them to use specific weapons (check the edit of my last post for why that is) and would gain absolutely nothing from using Hysteria.

All it does is limit her to melee range and that is quite literally it.  She gains absolutely no other benefits from being forced into a 2 meter melee range and the rest of her kit doesn't do enough to support her enough to use it effectively without activating it becoming purely a detriment to her survival and potential damage output.

Edited December 16, 2015 by Tsukinoki

[(PSN)big_eviljak]

If Hysteria would be set to 95% DR even it would be better. Infinite Invincibility is broken concept and theres no defending that. With 95% DR Valkyr would get energy while in Hysteria to allow you to use your other abilities instead of just saving all to keep up your ultimate. The damage you would take would be so minimal anyway that you would only notice it on very, very long missions or in really high Sortie missions.

And yes she still has stuff going for her that Chroma doesnt have, such as complete CC immunity and you dont suffer energy drains while in Hysteria. And it would still infinite and easier to get full effect out of.

Do u even play valkyr?

[TwevOWNED]

With this change why would anyone choose her over Chroma?

Because with Chroma I can hit 99% DR and over 8x damage with all my weapons and wouldn't be limited to a 2 meter melee range.

All Valkyr could do is hit 95% DR while being limited to a 2 meter melee range.

 

Why do I play Nyx when Loki does exactly what she does but superior in every way?

 

 

How is this not a nerf?

 

Because Rage, Quickthinking, passive lifesteal from Hysteria, and Valkyr's already massive armor pool are things that exist. As long as you are punching something you do not ever die. Maybe once you get into the 130+ levels you will get bursted down faster than you can punch something or around 70+ on T4, but other than super endgame content where you don't see Valkyr anyway she'll perform better than her current state.

 

Assuming that she retains her immunity to status procs, Eximus auras, and knockdowns, Valkyr will be an immortal ball of death. Perhaps the damage resistance can scale up based on how many enemies she's hit recently or something up to 99%, but I still believe 95% is more than enough for anything not exorbitantly high.

Edited December 16, 2015 by TwevOWNED

[PsychedelicSnake]

As a Valkyr player, I wouldn't mind switching out total invulnerability for damage reduction. With how powerful the innate life steal Hysteria has, it'd more than make up for it.

[Synitare]

Why do I play Nyx when Loki does exactly what she does but superior in every way?

 

 

 

Because Rage, Quickthinking, passive lifesteal from Hysteria, and Valkyr's already massive armor pool are things that exist. As long as you are punching something you do not ever die. Maybe once you get into the 130+ levels you will get bursted down faster than you can punch something or around 70+ on T4, but other than super endgame content where you don't see Valkyr anyway she'll perform better than her current state.

 

Assuming that she retains her immunity to status procs, Eximus auras, and knockdowns, Valkyr will be an immortal ball of death. Perhaps the damage resistance can scale up based on how many enemies she's hit recently or something up to 99%, but I still believe 95% is more than enough for anything not exorbitantly high.

 

The question still remains then; why take her at all? Chroma is outright better in all ways. Frost is outright better in all ways. Trinity is exponentially better in all ways. Wukong is slightly less durable but retains the ability to use his weapons, AND can vanish at will. Loki and Nyx are both better. Ivara is better. Hell even Mesa would be better.

 

You're still focusing only on nerfing Hysteria. Valkyrs issues extend far beyond that one skill.

[TwevOWNED]

The question still remains then; why take her at all? Chroma is outright better in all ways. Frost is outright better in all ways. Trinity is exponentially better in all ways. Wukong is slightly less durable but retains the ability to use his weapons, AND can vanish at will. Loki and Nyx are both better. Ivara is better. Hell even Mesa would be better.

 

You're still focusing only on nerfing Hysteria. Valkyrs issues extend far beyond that one skill.

Bruh, what about being able to utilize the Rage mod makes it a nerf? She's still invincible because of Quick Thinking and the passive lifesteal, but now energy is not a limiting factor with her Hysteria. It's not a nerf, it's a buff.

 

Chroma isn't immune to procs/eximus/knockdowns, Frost isn't immune to procs/eximus/knockdowns and does not have innate health gain nor the ability to safely use lifestrike, ontop of that Frost is a different style of frame, Wukong isn't immune to procs/eximus/knockdowns, Loki and Nyx are different style frames entirely, Ivara isn't immune to procs/eximus/knockdowns. Mesa isn't immune to procs/eximus/knockdowns.

 

The only one you have a point on is Trinity, who is already better in every way aside from not being immune to eximus.

[Gurpgork]

Bruh, what about being able to utilize the Rage mod makes it a nerf? She's still invincible because of Quick Thinking and the passive lifesteal, but now energy is not a limiting factor with her Hysteria. It's not a nerf, it's a buff.

 

Chroma isn't immune to procs/eximus/knockdowns, Frost isn't immune to procs/eximus/knockdowns and does not have innate health gain nor the ability to safely use lifestrike, ontop of that Frost is a different style of frame, Wukong isn't immune to procs/eximus/knockdowns, Loki and Nyx are different style frames entirely, Ivara isn't immune to procs/eximus/knockdowns. Mesa isn't immune to procs/eximus/knockdowns.

 

The only one you have a point on is Trinity, who is already better in every way aside from not being immune to eximus.

It is absolutely a nerf. A bombard standing across the room from you could kill you, and since you're limited to melee range, you can't kill him unless you're in his face. 

 

Being able to use the Rage mod is not unique to Valkyr by any means. It's also not like energy is a huge problem with Hysteria anyway. I have it draining about 0.8 energy per second. I only have to find an energy orb every 20 seconds for energy to not be a limiting factor, and those things drop like candy.

 

Proc and knockdown immunity aren't worth being limited to melee range, expecially because you can put Handspring in Chroma's Exilus slot, and then one of those problems is a non-issue. Not to meniton that Chroma is a far better user of Quick Thinking, because he has much more armor and a much bigger energy pool. If he's running Fire, he even gets much more energy from QT.

 

I agree that Hysteria needs a nerf, as long as it's compensated in a reasonable buff to the rest of her kit, but removing the god mode, regardless of build opportunities it opens, is a nerf, not a buff.

[Synitare]

No, it's a nerf. You're reducing the damage reduction from 100% to 95%, which means you can be instagibbed. 95% damage reduction is significantly less than 100%. If you take a 10,000 damage hit, you'll still take 500 damage which will nearly kill you outright. Being able to use rage is quite honestly completely inconsequential. It doesn't matter in the slightest.

 

Chroma can completely avoid all of those things because he can use ranged weapons. Plus he gets a ridiculous damage multiplier. On all weapons. Frost can make the entire team immune to damage and status procs. Knockdowns still get through, but that's just because Bombards are broken as hell. He can also CC, strip armor and deal high damage with his abilities. Yeah he's a different style of frame, but he's still outright better. The same is true of Loki and Nyx. Being a different style of frame is utterly irrelevant. They're still just straight-up better.

Edited December 16, 2015 by Synitare

[TwevOWNED]

It is absolutely a nerf. A bombard standing across the room from you could kill you, and since you're limited to melee range, you can't kill him unless you're in his face. 

I don't think you understand how much a 95% damage resistance would be ontop of Valkyr's already high armor. A Bombard would have to be volleying rockets at you for the better half of a century to kill you. As for melee being an issue, you can move so fast that it doesn't matter, and any damage that bombard does with the one rocket that will hit you will be negated by the innate lifesteal.

 

Proc and knockdown immunity aren't worth being limited to melee range, expecially because you can put Handspring in Chroma's Exilus slot, and then one of those problems is a non-issue. Not to meniton that Chroma is a far better user of Quick Thinking, because he has much more armor and a much bigger energy pool. If he's running Fire, he even gets much more energy from QT..

Chroma isn't immune to Eximus, and even with handspring being knocked down at the wrong time can be fatal. The difference between Chroma's damage resistance and the hypothetical 95% is pretty much nil until you reach absurdly high levels where Valkyr isn't even viable anyway.

 

 

I agree that Hysteria needs a nerf, as long as it's compensated in a reasonable buff to the rest of her kit, but removing the god mode, regardless of build opportunities it opens, is a nerf, not a buff.

Infinite Hysteria > Not Infinite Hysteria. The change would be a buff to anyone but Pleblord McGee who doesn't have the right mods. Even then, said individual is probably doesn't have high enough gear to make it to the levels where not having those mods would matter.

[TwevOWNED]

No, it's a nerf. You're reducing the damage reduction from 100% to 95%, which means you can be instagibbed. 95% damage reduction is significantly less than 100%. If you take a 10,000 damage hit, you'll still take 500 damage which will nearly kill you outright.

Fine make the damage resistance scale up to 99% with how many enemies are around Valkyr and how much she is attacking like I suggested earlier. that instagib scenario isn't going to happen either until the upper hundreds, where Valkyr isn't used to begin with. Also you are forgetting Valkyr's already high base armor in your maths there.

 

 

Being able to use rage is quite honestly completely inconsequential. It doesn't matter in the slightest.

Right I forgot how Rage is inconsequential when paired with Quick Thinking and a warframe that has innate and easy health regen. I thought that Rage would fuel Hysteria and Quick Thinking while Hysteria would refill the health bar which would in turn let rage refill the energy meter so the cycle continues. I must be wrong though cause you said so.

 

 

Frost can make the entire team immune to damage and status procs. Knockdowns still get through, but that's just because Bombards are broken as hell.

Mind linking me to the patch notes where Frost can neutralize the aura's of Eximus enemies? I must have missed it.

[Alineah]

oh man if her invincibility goes away which already heavily nerfs your damage and encourages you to put yourself in more dangerous positions in order to put hysteria to any form of offensive use will be a good hit on her, i just plainly see this as just a nerf, her entire kit will need rework, but if this is all you guys want for valkyr, ill go prepare her coffin so you guys can push F to pay respects for her, she doesnt even have much CC to begin with aside from single targets, and her damage isnt all that good either.