Is The Hate For Wukong & Nezha Biased/unjustified ? (Discussion)

[(PSN)SeneschalGrigori]

Wukong: I can understand why people wouldn't want to be him as for me that skill "defy" would make the game boring kinda like Valkyr did when I realized I was god when in Hysteria.

 

Complaining about that is stupid though (only that I mean, if he has other balancing issues with the rest of the move-set then by all means go for it)

 

Nezha: Honestly, I won't use "him" due to that but I won't complain about it either. It's just cosmetic. Granted, if I find he's actually fun then hell I might go for it. But the idea that it looks like a chick but is a dude does kind of put me off to the frame, but at the same time the Operator of all the frames is piloting both male & female frames so does it truly matter? 

 

[Rheoidegen]

Nobody moans about Ivara because shes actually fun to play. 

 

I do-

[Dairaion]

First and foremost, don't bring any toxicity here keep that in the feedback forums please thank youuu~

Hate for Wukong

Now I wanted to talk about the hate that Wukong and Nezha have both received shortly after there global releases. From what I've seen , people already had an opinion about the two frames before there release , in the case of Wukong ; he was called useless because in a devstream they only demonstrated 3 of his abilities ( Iron Jab, Cloudwalker, & Primal Fury) and through that demonstration people went for his abilities are "lackluster". But then on his release , the community quickly realized his 3rd ability 'defy', and ability that basically gives him the unkillability as a Valkyr. He finally had an ability that could give him a roll in a team, also arguably one of the most useful abilities ever. Then he quickly went from Lackluster to Broken... Before I tell you what I think about this lets go check out Nezha.

Hate for Nezha

Nezha, a frame that was originally leaked from China. The hate started at his appearance, calling him names I won't repeat . But then soon after he was also displayed on a devstream. It showed that his wide range of powers had a wide range of effects , this made me sooo excited to get my hands on him, so I quickly jumped on to the forums to express that & all I saw was hate *-* . More threads about his appearance and other threads that generally through him into the "Jack of all trades, Master of none" Oberon box. Ever where I looked, Reddit, YouTube, Forums it was all hate towards a frame that wasn't even out yet. About a month later he is released on PC . From what I saw through videos from my favorite youtubers , it seems like his dmg capabilities were mid tier at most, but his support and cc abilities were High tier end game. To me he seems like a really useful solo and team frame, but for some reason other people don't see that.

I believe the hate towards these two frames are not generated from the frame themselves but how De went about there releases. So basically all Salt, as in how they were leaked from another version of warframe that we don't have access too , the wait for these frames, and last and foremost the acquisition of these frames (Nitain Extract , Sorties)

But of course that's just my opinion. Do you believe the hate for Nezha and Wukong is justified? Thoughts below~

honestly i expected more from who i thought was goku frame and ember man respectively. now at this point they come off as booty just to add more to the roster. mostly due to un original feels and abilities.

I mean invincibility? why is every so called quick and nimble frame get to be a tank but rhino gets to be obese enough to make people super close to him fall over when he falls from 10 feet or higher? what kinda super power is that? my loki tanks better than my rhino.

[FoxyKabam]

the hate for whokong and nurzha justified?

depends on where its coming from, if its becuase theyre china frames made for china first?

then no thats not a great reason to "hate" them and one I havent really seen

though alot of people like to pull the racist card out if you dont like the new frames

if its because theyre lazy designs that dont bring a whole lot to the table?

then yeah, thatd be perfectly fine personal criticism

I know DE could have done a better job with these two and its disappointing they dont bring any new powers or lore with them

looking at it as consumer these two don't offer the same value as our other frames and are atm just thrown behind alertium and sorties

which is a whole other issue all together

havent read through the thread yet

but im sure theres already a "racist against china hate" post somewhere

or worse "be grateful DE released them over here at all"

Edited December 21, 2015 by FoxyKabam

[WERElektro]

I hate  neither of them. I like Nezha for the mere fact that he managed to cause a huge S#&$storm. And all just because he doesn't fit some people's idea of a male warframe. It makes all the douchebags feel uncomfortable. It's quite hilarious.

 

But I dislike the fact that we might actually end up getting each and every chinese mythology figure as Warframe.

One would be okay.... but together with Nezha we already have 2. which is already kinda meh. Why? because it makes no sense - why should there be more than 1 china inspired warframe?

And it already looks to me as if  there will be more- for warframe china-

which wouldn't be a bad thing- let changyou do as they wish,... it's their game.

The problem is, that as soon as there will be a new warframe released in Chinaframe, people here will want it too.

And they would go nuts if they wouldn't get it. Because, yay, more warframes! More warframes is all they care about! They don't give a S#&$ about story and lore.

So... I don't dislike Nezha and Wukong.... Their design is okay, nothing too special... wukong has a bit too much detail and the energy streams from his head should be optional imo.... but overall it's a neat design. Ability wise I can't say much, since I just maxed wukong and haven't built nezha yet.

 

If they go on like that I'll demand an Austrian Warframe with the ability to consume lots of beer.

[Cidolfus]

But I have, and they are. Warding halo/devine spears are ridiculously close in function to diamond armor and stomp, except Rhinos abilities are better.  Defy and Primal fury are a poor man's Hysteria. 

 

Please explain to me what benefit bringing a Nezha has over Rhino, or a Wukong over Valkry. 

 

Close, but different, and are actually better.

 

Warding halo stuns melee pursuers, thus is indeed better than Rhino's iron skin. Divine Spears has the ability to keep enemies impaled for far longer than Rhino's stomp, has more range, and does more damage. The spears can be used as a way to easily find and target enemies as well thanks to how much they glow. They also open up enemies to finishers.

 

Defy allows you to not just use melee, thus is INSTANTLY better than Valkyr's Hysteria. Primal Fury not only grows in range with each hit, but its combos are ALL really good AND can be fully controlled. He can do a huge amount of CC all over the place with his right click combo, and does a ton of damage while basically slash dashing through enemies with another one. ALL of this can be fully controlled. You can move, turn, everything. You can even quickly run and press crouch during his combos so he travels further (I do that alot with his CC combo) Valkyr = run around and left click, because if you try to do her real combos she gets locked up. "Poor man's Hysteria"? That makes absolutely zero sense any way you define it, since this combo is actually better and Wukong is far harder to craft.

 

Next time don't just run draco one or two times.

Edited December 21, 2015 by Cidolfus

[FoxyKabam]

That's your problem. You base a warframe's level of fun on the level of how overpowered they are. So fine, I'll play by your rulebook.

looks like you're putting words in his mouth

[Cidolfus]

looks like you're putting words in his mouth

 

Y'know what? You're right, I'll edit that. However everything else stated is true, so please come up with a better rebuttal.

[FoxyKabam]

Y'know what? You're right, I'll edit that. However everything else stated is my opinion, so please come up with a better rebuttal.

ftfy

and you're not dragging me in this

[bejuizb]

Here's my two cents on the two Chinaframes.

 

For one, they're extremely derivative of characters and do not really adhere to a theme, but rather serve the purpose of translating a character as a whole into Warframe's universe. Every single Warframe prior to these two were generally based on abstract themes, and their abilities reflected that. Loki isn't a shapeshifter, but serves as a Warframe equivalent to the essence of the Norse Loki, namely being a trickster and deceiver. Sure, he has some visual cues paying homage to Loki, namely the horned helmets, but the character alone doesn't scream: THIS IS LOKI.

 

Wukong quite literally resembles Sun Wukong from the Journey to the West, and has too many similarities to that character to sit well with some players, me included. It's also why I don't like Limbo or Mesa too much. But those two get a pass because of their mechanics, but I digress for now. Ne Zha has the same issues aesthetically, he follows the exact same traits Ne Zha from popular culture has, and while this may be nothing to complain about for most people, it does tend to stick out a lot in the Warframe universe. Even Ivara, who's the newest, follows the theme of a stealth archer, but she doesn't really look like a character, more akin to a amalgamation of different themes and structures. Because of this reason, I feel like Wukong and Ne Zha are extremely derivative and lazily designed. Please note, I don't intend to bash the devs for this, I know the pains of modelling and creating characters for video games, and I totally respect them for it. But I also feel like they took the easy way out, which served a dual purpose of churning out a frame while also pandering to the Chinese audience to bolster the game's release in that region.

 

Second, mechanically, both Wukong and Ne Zha once again fall short. By adhering to a character instead of a theme, DE essentially shot themselves in the foot when it came to developing abilities. Wukong is a giant hodgepodge of random abilities with absolutely no synergy. He literally is Sun Wukong, and while Wukong's abilities are great for the Journey to the West story, they suck from a gameplay perspective. He has tremendous damage potential, but personally, I'm finding him terrifyingly boring to play, and I really don't want to play him whatsoever. His entire kit can be done better by other existing frames, and he doesn't really bring anything to the party aside from raw damage. Why use Wukong, when Valkyr, in her completely broken state, exists? Why use Wukong's melee damage skills when Atlas exists, who does tremendous amounts of damage and crowd controls like a monster?

 

Ne Zha is better, but he still suffers from the same lack of oomph and innovative gameplay. People might say: oh, but he forces a close quarters playstyle, but that is the case for any player wanting to use melee attacks or shotguns. His kit once again, heavily, heavily borrows from Ne Zha from the taoist lore, but unlike Wukong, there is a bit of synergy in his kit, and generally tends to pan out better from a gameplay perspective. It clearly shows more time being put into Ne Zha than Wukong, but I feel like the dev team could genuinely have done better and not trapped themselves into making frames from existing characters.

 

Please remember, both sides are not in the wrong. It's simply a matter of liking it, or not. I don't think it's right to call out others because they don't share the same views as you.

[KorbanGado]

I don't necessarily feel the hate is justified agains the frames themselves - as everyone has a different playstyle and will like different things. Sometimes it really just takes a while to figure out how you can play a frame in a manner that suits you - I used tonot like Valkyr because I was absolute rubbish with her. The, after finding a few mods to slot in there that actually worked for me and my playstyle, I like her pretty well enough now. So when it comes to moves, I think whether it's "justified" comes down to individuals playstyles.

An outside-of-warframe example can be found with Pen and Paper games - power gamers that min/max will not like anything that's not super useful in endgame, whereas roleplayers will not like things that take that away from them (like super-linear stories).

 

As for aesthetics - again, it's all individuals voicing their opinions. I absolutely love my anteater/sea dragon head on my dragon-frame, but people were having an absolute riot when that thing came out. Part of that is pre-concieved notions people have and come up with, and then getting mad when it doesn't match what they want - think Godzilla with Broderick in it. Those more passionate than others will raise their voices louder (Bay's Transformers didn't erase the old show, my childhood is unaffected), but that's just the nature of the world wide web connecting like-minded individuals.

Now, for delivery methods, I can see some of the annoyance being justified - That large amount of Nitain required for big clans full of people who apparently don't play anymore sounded pretty rough, although I never experienced it myself. A lot of that I feel stems from impatience of us the players (even though I've been dealing with it the quiet "i'll get it when I get it" way for the past year - not that it stops me from rage quitting after 20 T4 keys resulting in credit caches), as the more people you get with everything, the more the want to do, and the more they want to do the less they want to wait for new stuff.

Outside of that, I can't read peoples minds, so i couldn't tell yah either which way. I just know personally I didn't negatively care for either (although was saddened by the aquisition method of Nezha), but hope Wukong gets an alt-helm that looks like Jet Li Warframe-ized.

[DxAdder]

Wukong I find kinda Meh but 75 % of all frames fall into that category for me.

 

Nezha I find fun, there is no frame that can move that fast and slide across the map leaving a trail of fire but his casting times suck.

[BlueImperial]

I don't like the look of Wukong, i like Nehza though, i think he looks amazing.

[Cidolfus]

Wukong I find kinda Meh but 75 % of all frames fall into that category for me.

 

Nezha I find fun, there is no frame that can move that fast and slide across the map leaving a trail of fire but his casting times suck.

 

I agree his casting times need tweaking.

[Wolfdoggie]

I hate  neither of them. I like Nezha for the mere fact that he managed to cause a huge S#&$storm. And all just because he doesn't fit some people's idea of a male warframe. It makes all the douchebags feel uncomfortable. It's quite hilarious.

 

 

Yeah, apparently there's no such thing as a skinny male and my life is a lie.

[RawGritz]

Yeah, apparently there's no such thing as a skinny male and my life is a lie.

Lol! 

[Kothophed]

Wukong also looks like power rangers

[MegaPain]

I dont understand how ppls even compare wu with valkyr.

 

Valkyr = braindead immortal untill nullifier come then you make use of your p reach and nullifier are gone...

 

wu needs rage life steal in his build... alone that kills everything for me

 

I even have a spot for exidus in my valkyr build without forma and still can spin attak lvl 100 1shot

[crafturtoemc]

Guys just enjoy frames you like to use and give no f*** to the others. Easy.

[(PSN)CowboyJeff72]

I try to avoid the negativity honestly. Everyone has their opinion on matters. From play style to lore, from aesthetics to abilities, you will get as many varied reasons to like or dislike a frame as there are people who play the game. Is some of it based off of hatred? Absolutely, I can almost guarantee there is at least one person who hates them based on their origin just by simply casting a stone into the pool. Does that mean that's where all of the negativity surrounding them is coming from? Certainly not.

 

I think just by reading your thread through you can determine the overriding issue is acquisition of these two frames. They are seen as a huge increase to the already tedious grind many see rampant in Warframe. I think it really is that simple. You couple that with the other things each individual player finds negative about the frames and you start to perceive that it is the frames themselves or in this case, their origins that are causing the issue. 

 

I'll give you my own personal example and you will see how it can easily be construed as hating the frames based on their origins.

 

Wukong - I find this frame fun to play. Aesthetically, I like the armor and helmet, but hate the helmet energy tassels. As such, he has been leveled and put away. This is a frame that I will pull out from time to time to just have fun with but until an alternate helmet of a design that I find aesthetically pleasing is available, he will be no more than that. 

 

Nezha - I find this frame very aesthetically displeasing. The skinniness or other feminine attributes others have stated the frame has are irrelevant to the fact that this frame too closely resembles Sailor Moon in a Warframe. This is a cartoon that I never liked and the anime art style is not one that has ever appealed to me. So even when this frame comes to console and I level it and find that I like it play wise, it will never see play again based simply on the fact that I am very aesthetics minded and find this frame unpleasing enough to warrant not playing it. Or course a skin later on that I like could change this.

 

Now, I have not once stated that I dislike either based on the fact of their origin of design, but you can easily see where someone could interpret that based off of my descriptions of why I do not like them. They just do not appeal to me aesthetically, plain and simple. That aesthetic could have come from an Australian style, a Japanese style, a Russian style, or even an American style (I am American btw), and I still wouldn't be interested in playing them based solely on that. In more simple terms, I personally find them ugly! LOL

 

So in retrospect, is the "hate" you see sometimes motivated by prejudice, sure. You are bound to run into those people in any aspect of life. Is it the overriding issue with the displeasure so many have for the frames? I honestly do not believe so.

Edited December 21, 2015 by (PS4)CowboyJeff72

[WERElektro]

Yeah, apparently there's no such thing as a skinny male and my life is a lie.

 

And the people who say Nezha makes them feel "Uncomfortable".....

 

It's hilarious.... while it's actually also pretty sad the people still believe in obsolete gender stereotypes.

Edited December 21, 2015 by WEREsandrock

[Rheoidegen]

ftfy

 

You actually didn't fix anything, he was right...