De Reaction To A Certain Player (Hacker?) Seems Pretty Heavy-Handed.

[FrostDragoon]

Let me start off with the event itself. Player names not given for their privacy.

 

A few days ago some clan mates of mine were trading with someone who was offering give-aways. It seemed innocent enough, though perhaps uncharacteristically generous. Sometimes people quit and give away all their stuff, sometimes they just want more hits for their stream or Youtube channel, and other times they just feel charitable (especially around the holidays). Whatever the case, my clan mates just thought it was someone being nice.

 

Fast-forward to yesterday and today and TeamSpeak is lit up with people talking about having negative platinum, trade rights permanently revoked, and 20 year bans. At first we thought it may have been a bug in DE's end, but after everyone talked about it more, they realized that the common point between them all was that they had traded with or been given gifts from that particular player. The rest of us were able to log in and do everything normally.

 

Now, I completely understand taking actions against cheaters/hackers/exploiters etc, but what I don't understand is why players who had no way of knowing that the items they received were ill-gotten are being punished. Sure, take away said items. I won't dispute that. But trade and account bans? It's not even their fault! Punish the scammer/hacker. He knowingly broke the rules, and that's the huge difference. Some users have even been told that they would have to buy enough platinum to bring their accounts into a positive value to play again. That is simply beyond unprofessional.

 

I don't find it hard to see how problematic this situation is, and it's definitely going to be a touchy issue for DE to address directly, but those players have submitted tickets to appeal the actions taken against their accounts, and as a general player, I personally would appreciate it if DE would do the right thing here and restore their accounts as well as assuring other players who have had a similar experience that they can have their issues resolved too.

 

If the only thing you can trust is direct purchase from the Market, I can't see this game surviving going forward; it relies far too heavily on player to player trading for that to be a viable approach. So here's the question I want to leave for DE:

 

If players can't trust trades or gifts from other players, how can we continue to rely on the current in-game economical practices? What will be done about this issue?

[jonnin]

this sort of issue is private between the individual with a ban and DE.   They should open a ticket and plead their case.    There isn't much more we can say here ...  I mean I can agree with you that from this angle it sounds rough, but that means trusting that you told the whole story.   We can speculate and rant and all but none of us can help you, and none of us know what really happened.    Its really best kept private.

[Robm]

Another post about something that shouldn't be a problem to begin with. DE, when will you fix this? Currently I don not trade with people for this problem. If this game is going to survive, DE needs to fix this. I hope DE will fix this soon. Tell your mates I feel there pain because they were unjustly banned.  

[Festinger]

If it's too good to be true, it probably is.

 

That said, for someone that is reviewing the transection log, there no difference between someone paying money outside warframe and then receiving "free gifts" as compared to someone getting free gifts.

Edited January 8, 2016 by Festinger

[(XBOX)barnes almighty]

I gave away one of every warframe, almost all weapons and a few carriers on Christmas eve on XB1 I also sold everything I had on my ps4 account made 4k platinum and gifted suits from the store to mastery 3 or less players shortly after. Just because it was Christmas and I wanted to make the community stronger and better.

There are decent players out there don't let the few scum bags ruin your fun, DE will ban them and unban those who were wronged and I would suspect compensate them too.

[DeMonkey]

They should open a ticket and plead their case.

 

If I'm honest, they shouldn't have to. My mind cannot even fathom why DE thinks it's a good idea to ban people who were given stuff with ''bad platinum''. Yeah, support is there and they should be able to help you, but it shouldn't come to that in the first place.

[silentknife93]

So I to am having this problem. They say it is one specific person in particular that the trade/purchases came from. they say that Plat or items were purchased fraudulently from this person and I do not even know who this player is. Once more the amount of platinum they are saying has been involved in this purchase is insanely ridiculous. To say the least I am extremely disappointed in the fact they they expect me to pay to get my account back when I did nothing wrong to begin with.

[Vic_Viper]

Chances are they aren't going to do anything. If they do it won't be anytime soon.

[FrostDragoon]

this sort of issue is private between the individual with a ban and DE.   They should open a ticket and plead their case.    There isn't much more we can say here ...  I mean I can agree with you that from this angle it sounds rough, but that means trusting that you told the whole story.   We can speculate and rant and all but none of us can help you, and none of us know what really happened.    Its really best kept private.

 

I would agree with you if it didn't hit so many people at once, but the issue itself is the important part here--not just those affected. This kind of thing can really undermine a foundational piece of the game, and we shouldn't just sit quietly and allow it. At least not if you love this game as much as I do.

[Sargeant_Q]

Its a Auto ban.  If you drop under 0 plat it auto bans you.

[SvZz]

I been trading in this game for so long never even knew this was a thing... Good thing I always took a screenshot of every trade just for safety encase my item is gone and no plat and can make a ticket.

Well I be a bit more on alert now, this should be a top priority for a game like this but meh.. don't see it being fix soon.

 

Also just saw this tread https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/517634-psa-tenno-safe-trading-tips/page-4

DE should really make it so they have to force view these threads before going on to the forums and post or anything.

[(XBOX)barnes almighty]

Is this a hack or did the rogue trader simply buy platinum on a second account, used it in trades to get stuff for their main, traded to a friendly third party, had it passed to their main account and then used charge back to regain cash spent in game through their bank?

This is, at least to my logic the only way a player could benefit and make their trades go into negative plat as DE scramble to regain what they lost thus putting innocent players negative and resulting In bans.

I'm just trying to understand how this could happen.

[Letter13]

This is an issue that's been going on, and the banning is completely automated in these cases.

 

What happens is that player A purchases platinum, uses the platinum to buy a gift for player B or trades with player B to give them said platinum, then player A goes to their bank/credit card company and tells them to undo the charge because it was an error/fraudulent. Charge gets reversed, and the system automatically tries to deduct the platinum from the player who purchased it, however the platinum is no longer in their possession so it deducts it from the players that they gave it to.

 

If you or anyone you know have been a victim of this fraudulent activity, have them contact support ASAP so they can investigate and undo any trades/gifting transactions that resulted in the ban being issued (basically a roll back of account data to undo the trade which involved platinum/gifts that were reverse charged).

[(XBOX)barnes almighty]

This is an issue that's been going on, and the banning is completely automated in these cases.

 

What happens is that player A purchases platinum, uses the platinum to buy a gift for player B or trades with player B to give them said platinum, then player A goes to their bank/credit card company and tells them to undo the charge because it was an error/fraudulent. Charge gets reversed, and the system automatically tries to deduct the platinum from the player who purchased it, however the platinum is no longer in their possession so it deducts it from the players that they gave it to.

 

If you or anyone you know have been a victim of this fraudulent activity, have them contact support ASAP so they can investigate and undo any trades/gifting transactions that resulted in the ban being issued (basically a roll back of account data to undo the trade which involved platinum/gifts that were reverse charged).

Ah ha my logic was spot on...... This totally sucks for the innocent party I just hope DE IP ban this naughty traders so they gain nothing for their efforts.

[DeMonkey]

the system automatically tries to deduct the platinum from the player who purchased it, however the platinum is no longer in their possession so it deducts it from the players that they gave it to.

 

I can't understand how it was considered a good idea to make the system work this way, sure if you use bogus plat to gift your mate a bunch of free gear you both suffer. I can understand that. But so many innocent people have been hit by this, and for far too long.

 

Given that the player who gave away the bogus platinum didn't actually lose any, surely they aren't banned along with everyone else? Easy mass trolling with no downside (aside getting caught).

 

Bad system is bad.

[alexmach1]

I can't understand how it was considered a good idea to make the system work this way,

 

I understand the sentiment, but here's 2 examples that can possibly occur if the system didn't work this way:

 

A) player makes new account, buys platinum on this account, trades it to main account, then issues chargeback to gain their money back. Throwaway account gets banned, and the player not only gets their money back but also keeps their plat.

 

B) player uses stolen credit card on throwaway account to purchase platinum, trades platinum to main account. Owner of stolen credit card issues chargeback due to fraudulent purchase, and throwaway account gets banned. The card thief, however, does not get their platinum removed.

 

The system as it is now is simply an inconvenience against honest players, as a ticket to support can deal with the issue. 

 

I imagine that the player who issued the chargeback in this case also ended up with a negative plat amount, getting banned in the process as well.

Edited January 8, 2016 by alexmach1

[lightdragon64]

yea this whole negative platinum thing is showing up a lot in recent events. it happens when somebody buys a large amount of platinum with either not enough funds, a rejected card, or overall refuse to pay for it, because of this it ends up removing all of the platinum that was involved in the "purchase" if any of this platinum was spent on something like a bundle (let's say the volt value pack for instance) then it would remove that 220P from whoever received it for some unknown reason (who knows... probably a glitch or an oversight on DE's part) as a result if the player who received the gift does not have enough platinum to cover the cost of the bundle it will subsequently ban them...

 

here is some possible reasons for this happening.

 

-it prevents players from making extra accounts then purchasing soon to be negative platinum and sending their main accounts free merchandise such as bundles or gifts (hence the reason why it deducts the platinum from the account that it received the gift)

 

-an oversight on DE's part, perhaps it could be that de just never really thought that people would be scamming others out of their warframe accounts and causing them to lose everything they worked for. all that really needs to happen here is that the items that were gifted should be removed from the account who received the "gift", and the account who had sent it out should have all the funded platinum removed, (and maybe their account perma-banned who knows)

 

but in all seriousness if you or a friend ever have this issue happen contact support asap! it's disgusting how many people take advantage of exploits like this.

[FrostDragoon]

I been trading in this game for so long never even knew this was a thing... Good thing I always took a screenshot of every trade just for safety encase my item is gone and no plat and can make a ticket.

Well I be a bit more on alert now, this should be a top priority for a game like this but meh.. don't see it being fix soon.

 

Also just saw this tread https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/517634-psa-tenno-safe-trading-tips/page-4

DE should really make it so they have to force view these threads before going on to the forums and post or anything.

 

Nothing in that thread would have prevented this issue.

[Letter13]

I understand the sentiment, but here's 2 examples that can possibly occur if the system didn't work this way:

 

A) player makes new account, buys platinum on this account, trades it to main account, then issues chargeback to gain their money back. Throwaway account gets banned, and the player not only gets their money back but also keeps their plat.

 

B) player uses stolen credit card on throwaway account to purchase platinum, trades platinum to main account. Owner of stolen credit card issues chargeback due to fraudulent purchase, and throwaway account gets banned. The card thief, however, does not get their platinum removed.

 

The system as it is now is simply an inconvenience against honest players, as a ticket to support can deal with the issue. 

 

I imagine that the player who issued the chargeback in this case also ended up with a negative plat amount, getting banned in the process as well.

I imagine this is the case. Hadn't realized that if it were not the way it was, it could be used to exploit items from alt burner accounts onto a main account.

 

As for the chargeback, that all depends on whether they gifted/gave away all of the platinum they bought; if they did then no platinum would get deducted from them and they wouldn't go negative (because if all the platinum were given away to others, those who received platinum would have said platinum deducted).

 

Beyond that, I can't imagine DE wouldn't investigate and undo the damage for innocent victims to this type of fraud; but until the issue has been rectified/undone, the quickest way to regain access to one's account is to purchase platinum to bring the balance to 0 or above. Although buying platinum would immediately grant access again, one should always contact support and request an investigation to have fraudulent transactions undone.

[(PSN)Kulogrande0]

this sort of issue is private between the individual with a ban and DE. They should open a ticket and plead their case. There isn't much more we can say here ... I mean I can agree with you that from this angle it sounds rough, but that means trusting that you told the whole story. We can speculate and rant and all but none of us can help you, and none of us know what really happened. Its really best kept private.

I do not agree.

It may be solved in a private way but this and autoban program that if you get results on Xp or creds... Etc... outside certains limits get you banned, must be public knowledge.

In my case i'm afraid of a potential ban because i like to explore the boundaries of the game.

Nothing ilegal cause i only use the game mechanics to make things that seems imposible, but if i'm sucessful and get extraordinary results... Wow, price such a ban for make the work of playtester in beta game.

In the topic, as related, there is no way to know if is lieing or no without the info that devs sure they have.

But men... How to know if a trade is safe?

I supose that the hacker usually spreads many items to players as his other counts to make harder identify him. But its not enought to delete all fake item traded and allow negative plat to be gained thru commerce?

I don't know... To many ban threads.

[DeMonkey]

I understand the sentiment, but here's 2 examples that can possibly occur if the system didn't work this way:

 

A) player makes new account, buys platinum on this account, trades it to main account, then issues chargeback to gain their money back. Throwaway account gets banned, and the player not only gets their money back but also keeps their plat.

 

B) player uses stolen credit card on throwaway account to purchase platinum, trades platinum to main account. Owner of stolen credit card issues chargeback due to fraudulent purchase, and throwaway account gets banned. The card thief, however, does not get their platinum removed.

 

The system as it is now is simply an inconvenience against honest players, as a ticket to support can deal with the issue. 

 

I imagine that the player who issued the chargeback in this case also ended up with a negative plat amount, getting banned in the process as well.

 

You're right, that sort of thing would happen if it weren't for the system in place. Although, a system where if item 'x', 'y' and 'z' were bought with ''bogus platinum'', then xyz + any remaining bogus plat are removed and an inquiry takes place. No account ban, no trade ban. Potentially, if all goes well, no mess.

 

With regards to the player not getting banned, look at it like this. Butthead purchases 370p, Butthead then gives exactly 370p away to unsuspecting players, Butthead refunds it, system tries to take 370p from him but it's already all been handed away, Butthead is left alone since they have none of the bogus plat, Butthead gets away with it.

[peoplegreen]

My ign is Spacetordano and I revived 500 plat from a person name lolprawn under the impression that it was a giveaway. I am very worried that I might be the next to be banned because about 5 people from my clan which is the BNR CLAN has there account all ready banned. They say it starts with you losing all you trades for the day than the next day your banned. Me and my fellow clan members spent lots of time on the game and were falsely engaged in to a scam and I feel like thats not far the hacker leaves the game while we just get banned which is very disappointing. Some of my clan members and starting to drop the game because of this and even our clan adims say that they might just give up supporting the game which I don't want to happen. I played this game for 463 hours and I am pretty sure that the clan members thats been banned already have a lot more hours than me so all i am saying is DE!!! please restore me and my fellow clan member accounts to normal.

[Letter13]

My ign is Spacetordano and I revived 500 plat from a person name lolprawn under the impression that it was a giveaway. I am very worried that I might be the next to be banned because about 5 people from my clan which is the BNR CLAN has there account all ready banned. They say it starts with you losing all you trades for the day than the next day your banned. Me and my fellow clan members spent lots of time on the game and were falsely engaged in to a scam and I feel like thats not far the hacker leaves the game while we just get banned which is very disappointing. Some of my clan members and starting to drop the game because of this and even our clan adims say that they might just give up supporting the game which I don't want to happen. I played this game for 463 hours and I am pretty sure that the clan members thats been banned already have a lot more hours than me so all i am saying is DE!!! please restore me and my fellow clan member accounts to normal.

Send in a support ticket to contact support staff. Ask them to look into it and let them know your concerns if you're afraid you might be a target of a fraudulent trade.

[(PSN)Kulogrande0]

This is an issue that's been going on, and the banning is completely automated in these cases.

What happens is that player A purchases platinum, uses the platinum to buy a gift for player B or trades with player B to give them said platinum, then player A goes to their bank/credit card company and tells them to undo the charge because it was an error/fraudulent. Charge gets reversed, and the system automatically tries to deduct the platinum from the player who purchased it, however the platinum is no longer in their possession so it deducts it from the players that they gave it to.

If you or anyone you know have been a victim of this fraudulent activity, have them contact support ASAP so they can investigate and undo any trades/gifting transactions that resulted in the ban being issued (basically a roll back of account data to undo the trade which involved platinum/gifts that were reverse charged).

Two times in two days.

Thanks again Letter13.

[alexmach1]

I do not agree.

It may be solved in a private way but this and autoban program that if you get results on Xp or creds... Etc... outside certains limits get you banned, must be public knowledge.

In my case i'm afraid of a potential ban because i like to explore the boundaries of the game.

Nothing ilegal cause i only use the game mechanics to make things that seems imposible, but if i'm sucessful and get extraordinary results... Wow, price such a ban for make the work of playtester in beta game.

In the topic, as related, there is no way to know if is lieing or no without the info that devs sure they have.

But men... How to know if a trade is safe?

I supose that the hacker usually spreads many items to players as his other counts to make harder identify him. But its not enought to delete all fake item traded and allow negative plat to be gained thru commerce?

I don't know... To many ban threads.

 

Ideally, DE might be able to block certain cards, meaning that those who try to abuse this would have to get another card and/or another account. 

 

Alternatively, DE could implement a controversial "trusted user" system, where players who are not yet "trusted" are given a waiting period after purchasing platinum before they can use it on anything, and trusted users are those who have made purchases in the past and have played for a while.