Wf Needs No Balance It Is Mostly Not Pvp

[fakeBOSHI]

Lol, I guess if I got to a restaurant, I get to tell their staff how to dress now?

[Davoodoo]

Lol, I guess if I got to a restaurant, I get to tell their staff how to dress now?

You can always call manager and complain, he doesnt need to listen to you, but if enough ppl complain im sure he will change uniforms.

[Chipputer]

No, you're right, OP. The game doesn't need balance.

 

I like pressing one button and then shooting sandbags. It's so much fun and it's so positive for the longevity of the game that you so graciously pay DE to continue developing. What a saint you are, OP.

[Pizzarugi]

I'm gonna play devil's advocate here.

The reason I dislike balancing all weapons to increase diversity is that some weapons are going to be trivialized due to the difficulty of obtaining them.

Let's use the Vaykor Hek as an example, one of the most powerful shotguns in the game and arguably one of the most powerful weapons. In order to obtain it legitimately, you would need to spend a total amount of 372,000 favor, 940,000 credits, 1,000 salvage, 2 morphics, 1 forma, 1 orokin catalyst, 1 soma prime barrel and 1 rhino prime helmet to reach the highest rank of General. When that is done, you still need 125,000 favor and a mastery rank of 12 in order to obtain and use it.

And getting 12 mastery ranks isn't easy. Or cheap.

If it were to do as much damage as something like a Boar or Boar Prime (or made it as strong as Vaykor Hek), then you've taken a weapon you've worked hard to get and made it worthless in comparison to something that is arguably easier (or cheaper) to get. The same goes for making Braton or Braton Prime as strong as Boltor Prime, or Scindo/Scindo Prime as strong as War.

Edited February 3, 2016 by Pizzarugi

[Davoodoo]

-snip-

Simple answer, tiering.

[Colin248]

your argument does hold some weight but is counterd by the fact that people want challenging content. alow me to tell you a realy harsh truth. if warframe remains as it is: 

 

THERE WILL NEVER, EVER, BE CHALLANGEING LATE GAME CONTENT. 

 

is this a issue of balancing? or some deeper mechanic that needs tweeking? i cannot say. i am no game dev. i have tryed to give my opinion in the past but i can see now that it requires alot more thought to try and sort this game. DE must continue to experiment with challenging scenarios to try and figure the source of the problem. if anything, looking at the meta as it is currently and finding the best way to smash it, is the most viable course of action for the time being. so there are going to be even more tweeks to the game. and if you dont like it? well.... one thing the human race is good at is adapting. even if you dont want too. 

[Pizzarugi]

Simple answer, tiering.

If you wanna tier content based on MR requirement, I certainly wouldn't object. The stronger the weapon, the harder you need to work in order to use it. Worked just fine when I was a new player and soma was considered the most powerful weapon in the game at the time.

[Davoodoo]

your argument does hold some weight but is counterd by the fact that people want challenging content. alow me to tell you a realy harsh truth. if warframe remains as it is: 

 

THERE WILL NEVER, EVER, BE CHALLANGEING LATE GAME CONTENT. 

 

is this a issue of balancing? or some deeper mechanic that needs tweeking? i cannot say. i am no game dev. i have tryed to give my opinion in the past but i can see now that it requires alot more thought to try and sort this game. DE must continue to experiment with challenging scenarios to try and figure the source of the problem. if anything, looking at the meta as it is currently and finding the best way to smash it, is the most viable course of action for the time being. so there are going to be even more tweeks to the game. and if you dont like it? well.... one thing the human race is good at is adapting. even if you dont want too. 

Everyone knows whats the problem though, energy can bypassed, you got ridiculous aoe cc and weapon mods scale multiplicatively.

Change that, adjust enemy scaling and youre fine.

 

 

If you wanna tier content based on MR requirement, I certainly wouldn't object. The stronger the weapon, the harder you need to work in order to use it. Worked just fine when I was a new player and soma was considered the most powerful weapon in the game at the time.

I remember it working fine only at one point, where only mr locked weapons were gorgon mr3 and hek mr4.

 

Supra mr5 and soma mr6 was already broken.

It was never working properly

 

As for tiering i mean that you should have at every tier assault rifle, sniper rifle, shotgun, machine pistols, semi auto pistol, semi auto rifle, lmg, bow, grenade launcher, beam weapon at minimum, you know some choice.

Atm its all over the place. Telos boltor is on par with boltor prime, secura penta is worse than tonkor, rakta cernos, vay hek and sancti tigris are top tier and synoid simulor is niche weapon. Also vay hek and sancti tigris outshine pretty much everything because of shotgun buff.

I would like it to be untied from mr but until we get rid of mr for better system then its our only choice, so do it properly.

Edited February 3, 2016 by Davoodoo

[(PSN)AirJordan73]

I can understand both sides of this. From a veteran player standpoint, yes, balancing a PVE game is just crazy sounding. But, again been playing for years, so I just have access to more options then say someone who just joined. From the other perspective, I don't want to feel forced into playing one or two things, simply because I want to kill things as effectively as the other person. The game is fun because there isn't one load out, or one frame that's better then all the rest, they each of their own unique strengths and weaknesses.

As for the "I spent money on this game, so my votes should count" argument, let's not get started with that. Spending money on this game is PURELY optional. Many, MANY people spend money on this game and others. Should their voices be louder then the average player who can't spend money on the game? No. You spend money to support DE in making more content, and to perform general maintenance on their equipment to continue to bring everyone a better product, not to voice your opinion louder then the next person.

At the end of the day, this is DE's game, and they have the power to make it anything they want to. If they decided to, they could say "game is now $60, and you have to upgrade to it in order to play" or they could add a required monthly fee to play, like other games have or have had. They don't do that, because unlike most companies DE cares about the community, and wants to please them, and to make a game that anyone and everyone can enjoy!

[Davoodoo]

At the end of the day, this is DE's game, and they have the power to make it anything they want to. If they decided to, they could say "game is now $60, and you have to upgrade to it in order to play" or they could add a required monthly fee to play, like other games have or have had. They don't do that, because unlike most companies DE cares about the community, and wants to please them, and to make a game that anyone and everyone can enjoy!

Sorry to bring reality upon you, but sudden change to monthly sub would end this game. Backlash guaranteed, flow of new players cut instantly and unsubs over the board.

 

If there was an actual chance of this producing profit im sure they would do that, just like so many other games went with monthly sub because wow makes a bank.

Company doesnt care about you, you are at best number on their statistics.

Funnily enough if there was a monthly sub they would need to at least make you happy so you wont unsub, but with microtransactions they can just increase grind until you quit or buy their stuff.

[LeMoog]

Allow me to clarify exactly what I mean by "balance", I am not talking about everything staying the same or about not having challenge.

 

I am talking about the nerf/buff cycle that exists in WF, called for by players who IMHO just like the sound of their own voice or want to brag that they find the game too easy.

 

"Balance" should never be just nerf or buff, it should be a well thought out model/pardygm based upon many different variables and should be robust enough to allow for time dependant descaling of potencies and be able to provide a structured advancement from beginner to experienced player.

 

nerf/buff means that some rule of thumb or financial incentive determines a new item's potency, basically items being intentionally added to the game short term that break the game's own item potency rules in the knowledge that it can be nerfed later once it becomes commonplace.

 

This is and has been a problem for far to long and rather than being addressed, posters in this forum actually promote it, rather than ask why the game breaking addition was added without due consideration to that item's impact upon play.

 

I understand that DE need to make money on each new item they add to the game and so buff that item so it is an attractive purchase but then once it becomes common enough that it's game breaking potential is obvious they nerf it. Calling for the nerf is basically ignoring that the item should not have been released at that level of potency however if people have purchased that item with cash then the nerf is always going to dampen future investment.

 

The addition of any new item's potency should not be based upon tawdry short term profit or rule of thumb, it should be based within a well thought out model of the game universe knowing in advance what the impact of said item's potency and thus not require any major nerf/buff.

 

Within the game universe we have a sort of scaling from the hub to the fringes of the solar system however this can be completely bypassed by taxis, we have item parts only availible in certain mission which again can be bypassed by an OP player obtaining the item for the new players.

 

I could go on but except for weapon MR every other form of scaling difficulty has been intentionally bypassed or broken and so until this is fixed no amount of "balance" is ever going to be effective or a benefit to the game. MR itself is also bypassable via a player obtaining all the void items either as gifts or by purchase and then fast levelling via draco for example.

 

As all the universal model based scaling is effectively bypassable then nerfing or buffing any item just annoys people who bought it without good reason, this I would say discourages future investment and gives rise to the trolling nerf/buff calls, which also cause unnecessary bad feeling.

 

IMHO the universal scaling systems should be protected rather than by passed, this is the only way that meaningful challenge can result, until you know that a player has reached a level of skill and item potency how can you have any idea of what they would find to be an enjoyable challenge?

 

TLDR: No more talk of balancing items to fix WF lets instead talk about the broken scaling and it's long needed protection

Edited February 4, 2016 by LeMoog

[ClinkzEastwood]

You used the pay card?

Well, I paid for this game, I was one of the beta tester also. And I want a balanced game to play. What are you going to do about it?

I feel that's there is nothing worth spending on in this game even if I have plats, because I know that this game's diversity is as deep as a puddle of mud, because a handful of build will be dominant and all the other would be considered to be nonviable or crap. If I buy Oberon or Limbo in this game, or guns that's not Tonkor or Synoid Simulor, I'm wasting my money. I can count the number of things that's worth spending plats on using just fingers in my hand. And I find cookie-cutter fully-optimised builds to be boring so I don't want to spend on them neither.

So yeah, again, I'm a paid user, and I want a balanced game. What are you going to do about it?

[Loswaith]

Actually I disagree, I see weapons and frames as tools to do a job and if you pick the wrong tool for a job then you should expect it to be less effective.

 

This I would say encourages players to collect all the tools to find the most effective in each situtation there by handling every problem efficently and IMHO also promotes investment of timeand effort to complete their toolbox, in my opinion a good thing.

 

...

The problem here in warframe is some of those 'tools' do everything easilly, others do basically nothing well at all.  

 

 Balance is about most tool types (especially warframes) having a job they do best while no single 'tool' can do it all, and not having any tools not able to do much at all, thus actually being closer to the way you see it as opposed to the way it is.   

 

A more balanced game would be more the right tool for the right job especially at higher levels, instead of a few tools to do everything and the others doing essentially doing not much (those latter tools are what get called mastery fodder). 

Edited February 4, 2016 by Loswaith

[LeMoog]

You used the pay card?

Well, I paid for this game, I was one of the beta tester also. And I want a balanced game to play. What are you going to do about it?

I feel that's there is nothing worth spending on in this game even if I have plats, because I know that this game's diversity is as deep as a puddle of mud, because a handful of build will be dominant and all the other would be considered to be nonviable or crap. If I buy Oberon or Limbo in this game, or guns that's not Tonkor or Synoid Simulor, I'm wasting my money. I can count the number of things that's worth spending plats on using just fingers in my hand. And I find cookie-cutter fully-optimised builds to be boring so I don't want to spend on them neither.

So yeah, again, I'm a paid user, and I want a balanced game. What are you going to do about it?

 

My point if you read the post above is that "balance" as used by posters in these forums is about nerf/buff or removal of in game items, my point being that challenge ingame should not be about fixing game breaking items but instead having a game paradym of scaling challenge and items having specific utility and not allowing players to bypass this by buy or being gifted items that break the game scaling.

 

I am not talking about no new content, I am talking about having new content fit into a well thought out model of the game world that allows for a real challenging progression from new player to vet that cannot be bypassed by money or patronage.

 

Balance as used on these forums is a misnomer and distracts from the real issue that every scaling system has a bypass that prevents any chance of real challenge. You can get most items after a couple of weeks of play and the mission difficulty on fringe planet missions is crippled because of the wide range of abilities and skill of those players able to play that mission, who then come on the forums to complain about the balance nerf/buff.

 

Until the paradygm is fixed and inviolent no amount of nerf/buff will fix anything and has resulted in exactly what you are complaining about. Why invest when anything useful can be removed from your use and why only those items currently targeted by DE are worth taking on what should be higher challenge missions.

Edited February 4, 2016 by LeMoog

[LeMoog]

The problem here in warframe is some of those 'tools' do everything easilly, others do basically nothing well at all.  

 

 Balance is about most tool types (especially warframes) having a job they do best while no single 'tool' can do it all, and not having any tools not able to do much at all, thus actually being closer to the way you see it as opposed to the way it is.   

 

A more balanced game would be more the right tool for the right job especially at higher levels, instead of a few tools to do everything and the others doing essentially doing not much (those latter tools are what get called mastery fodder). 

 

Again as balance is misused on these forums to mean nerf/buff, scaling I feel is a better description of exactly what needs to happen, not remove anythign from players use but fix the ingame scaling systems and not allow anyone to bypass them.

 

I agree with your sentiments though just the word balance seems to confuse players about what exactly needs to be changed, this misunderstanding has made matters worse rather than better.

 

All the things that make WF a pain for the dedicated would be resolved by having the challenge scale outwards from the hub where players start to the fringes fo the solar system where they go to find challenge. Match making would result in a team of players who are actually equal to the challenege rather than waiting for someone to carry them through it. All items would have their optimum utility because they would fit into a planned paradygm rather than just be there to gain MR and sales from the new looking to skip learning how to play.

 

No repeated nerf/buff because no real thought was put into the impact of the items addition, these are the things that are needed and all I see is nerf this and buff that and the mission is too hard/easy missing the location of the problem completely

Edited February 4, 2016 by LeMoog

[ClinkzEastwood]

My point if you read the post above is that "balance" as used by posters in these forums is about nerf/buff or removal of in game items, my point being that challenge ingame should not be about fixing game breaking items but instead having a game paradym of scaling challenge and items having specific utility and not allowing players to bypass this by buy or being gifted items that break the game scaling.

 

I am not talking about no new content, I am talking about having new content fit into a well thought out model of the game world that allows for a real challenging progression from new player to vet that cannot be bypassed by money or patronage.

 

Balance as used on these forums is a misnomer and distracts from the real issue that every scaling system has a bypass that prevents any chance of real challenge. You can get most items after a couple of weeks of play and the mission difficulty on fringe planet missions is crippled because of the wide range of abilities and skill of those players able to play that mission, who then come on the forums to complain about the balance nerf/buff.

 

Until the paradygm is fixed and inviolent no amount of nerf/buff will fix anything and has resulted in exactly what you are complaining about. Why invest when anything useful can be removed from your use and why only those items currently targeted by DE are worth taking on what should be higher challenge missions.

Do you aware the fact that the new enemies designs are bandaids toward imbalanced frames?

If we have no Global CC, infinite invulnerablity, there won't be Comba and Nullifiers.

[Chipputer]

Allow me to clarify exactly what I mean by "balance" ...

If you have to redefine the term then you aren't talking about the idea of balance.

[Magneu]

I'm all for a tiering system; hell, Primes, Wraiths, Vandals, etc, should definitely be superior to their vanilla counterparts. Clan tech should be higher tier, event weapons up near top, Primes just about top, all assassin weapons at top, etc...however, what I don't like is when a single weapon outshines everything else by a massive margin, like the Tonkor or Synoid Simulor. If you want to do meta damage, you bring those, period. Nothing else can keep up except with extremely specialized builds; since when is it fair a high strength Chroma with a Latron Prime can't keep up with literally any other frame with a Tonkor? It's just too good.

 

Back to the main points, balance is good to encourage diversity. If everyone plays at most three frames, with a single weapon they use in each slot, odds are they'll get bored much faster than the player that plays every weapon. They say "Warframe is so boring/easy/grindy", when all they do is camp T4S with a Tonkor/meta squad for two hours. That's why I love sorties with conditions like "Snipers only"; it's REALLY funny watching people get downed every three seconds because they tried to Leroy Jenkins it with a squishy frame and a long range weapon. Less funny when they resort to broken tactics (Prism spam, practically anything Trinity related, Bastille, perma-Hysteria, etc. When the "only" way to beat a special condition mission (due to your poor weapon choice, including time invested in weapons) is to use utter cheese, I'm sorry, but you need to "git gud".

 

Balance (multiple, equally effective choices)=good.

"Balance" (everything facerolls all enemies except utter cheese enemies like Nullifiers up to and past sortie levels)=incredibly bad for game health.

 

EDIT: I feel like your desire to have no balance stems from having certain favorite equipment in the game that is part of the meta. Completely an assumption, but that's the gist I get from the thread.

Edited February 4, 2016 by Magneu

[LeMoog]

I'm all for a tiering system; hell, Primes, Wraiths, Vandals, etc, should definitely be superior to their vanilla counterparts. Clan tech should be higher tier, event weapons up near top, Primes just about top, all assassin weapons at top, etc...however, what I don't like is when a single weapon outshines everything else by a massive margin, like the Tonkor or Synoid Simulor. If you want to do meta damage, you bring those, period. Nothing else can keep up except with extremely specialized builds; since when is it fair a high strength Chroma with a Latron Prime can't keep up with literally any other frame with a Tonkor? It's just too good.

 

Back to the main points, balance is good to encourage diversity. If everyone plays at most three frames, with a single weapon they use in each slot, odds are they'll get bored much faster than the player that plays every weapon. They say "Warframe is so boring/easy/grindy", when all they do is camp T4S with a Tonkor/meta squad for two hours. That's why I love sorties with conditions like "Snipers only"; it's REALLY funny watching people get downed every three seconds because they tried to Leroy Jenkins it with a squishy frame and a long range weapon. Less funny when they resort to broken tactics (Prism spam, practically anything Trinity related, Bastille, perma-Hysteria, etc. When the "only" way to beat a special condition mission (due to your poor weapon choice, including time invested in weapons) is to use utter cheese, I'm sorry, but you need to "git gud".

 

Balance (multiple, equally effective choices)=good.

"Balance" (everything facerolls all enemies except utter cheese enemies like Nullifiers up to and past sortie levels)=incredibly bad for game health.

 

EDIT: I feel like your desire to have no balance stems from having certain favorite equipment in the game that is part of the meta. Completely an assumption, but that's the gist I get from the thread.

I do have favourite equipment but I would like to see all the other items I have in my arsenal have some meaning beyond making it hard to switch to the correct tool for the job.

 

I have no problem with a global revision of item potency so long as it is a once only revision. I wouldnt like to see all the work I put in with forma and catalyst/reactors being not lost to me as some of which I actually bought to level something to its potential quickly.

 

What I would like to see is more diversity in mission parameters so that all weapons and frames have an optimum utility, at the moment the scaling is too dependant upon numbers and bullet sponges.

 

What is needed are addition mission factors that require switching frames/weapons  loadouts regularly between missions. This would of course require an improved arsenal interface but it would finally make the "load out options" given as levelling rewards meaningful.

 

There is no quick fix, someone has to sit down and put some hard thinking into giving sufficent difference in enemy attributes, map layout environmental factors etc  between missions to make all the items useful and necessary for vet level play.

 

So I would suggest that the community come up with enough new factors to mission for DE to be able to make WF a challenging progression for all players at all levels. I personally would include more messages from AI at mission end to players giving hints at the optimum builds , the more missions of that type with subsequent tips the closer you get to optimal until finally the game would grow by adding a new weapon and mission type together. This would encourage obtaining slots to hold the full tool kit and allow the paradygm to grow along with the game and hopefully avoid the need for the nerf/nerf cycle we are all so bored of.

 

As to redefining "balance", I am not, I am instead avoiding using a word bandied about by people who clearly do not see or understand the real problem, "balance" used by the majority of posts here is pro nerf/buff cycle and so a word that makes it clearer what is needed is "scaling" which isn't  a comparision between only 2 things on a seesaw but a progression to include everything in it's place.

Edited February 4, 2016 by LeMoog

[Volinus7]

This game was torn apart by 2 mindsets

1.Everyone and every frames should be viable in all contents

Equality and balance but less role dedication and cooperation

2.Each person and each frame should have a dedicated role so each player cannot survive on their own.

Promote diversity and cooperation but less balance(equality) between each role.

Example

Mirage Frost Excal are all rounder one man army they can do def and free roam at high lvl on their own.

Those with dedicated role.

Banshee Nova

Pure DPS glass cannon

Trinity

Pure sustainability

I wonder if there's a way to mix those 2 together and not result in a total crap.

Edited February 4, 2016 by Volinus7

[VRHmason]

Another crybaby

[Davoodoo]

There was never a dedicated role, there were always broken abilites.

 

Energy ensured that ppl would go with one trick ponies and that forced specialisation.

Thats flawed design which was never addressed.

[ClinkzEastwood]

There was never a dedicated role, there were always broken abilites.

 

Energy ensured that ppl would go with one trick ponies and that forced specialisation.

Thats flawed design which was never addressed.

What is energy and is it edible?

[Davoodoo]

What is energy and is it edible?

Yes, your carrier eats these blue orbs all day and only occasionally gets full.

[CY13ERPUNK]

The point I was making was I thought self evident, I like everyone else who gave DE their money did so because they liked the game at the time.

 

This money was used to continue running and developing the game without which the game as is would not now be running.

 

So if there is going to be a radical change in the game away from what people paid for then as they were the ones who helped DE to make WF viable then they should get a choice about if any radical change is required.

 

I know this is a taboo subject for some, we are repeatedly berated to pretend that those that didnt help DE by putting their hands in their pockets should have an equal voice but the fact is that like founders with design council access money already buys you a voice, so why not extend the democracy to those that have invested as much as the original founders did. 

 

In the real world without investment there would not still be a WF and ignoring your paying customers has a known outcome, anyone who says different must live on some other world. They say free to play not free to change the game away from what pays for it to exist and by that token those that want WF to continue should not begrudge those that paid for that existence.

 

Lastly in every region I have visited more people complain of nerfing and unwanted changes than saying more balanced is required and yet I would suggest the forums have the opposite opinion, neither is a good datum to judge what the majority of players want and an ingame vote can be the only way to actually get any meaningful concensus

 

the original founders supported the game during a time when DE had little-to-no other outside funding, ie the original founders $$$ basically helped 'launch' the game, without that income, DE would not have been able to continue to pay the devs [as was they had to lay off a whole bunch, but thankfully many of those same ppl were hired back as soon as WF got rly going]

 

anyone else who has given $$$ to DE has certainly continued to help the game's development/funding, but not in the same regard, the founders funding was almost like an initial capital investment, whereas all later funding is just like someone later on buying the product {all good btw, just different}

 

DC was just a nice nod to the original founders, and now later on, to keep a larger pool of 'limited access' available for DE to poll/ask questions from, the DC has about as much direct input to the game as any other player, its just a smaller club is all

 

i did not buy into the DC but i was eventually invited, maybe i said something useful on the forums, who knows, and just recently the DC suggested ideas for equinox/wukong/atlas' augs, then later voted after DE gave them some limited choices, also suggesting ideas for a new heelorz AW atm, so yes the DC gets to do things like that, but that is largely the extent of it