Steps to balance without losing Warframe's "feel"

[Lost_Cartographer]

Changing the way scaling works won't fix power/CC spam.  Breaking the meta that exists will fix the spam, period.  Endless modes are, by intention, meant to crush Tenno after a point.  The fact that Tenno can CC spam enemies to the void and back and keep going LONG after they should have been overwhelmed in normally, properly paced gunplay and casting is proof that the balance is broken - in favor of the Tenno, when it's meant to be in favor of their enemies.

DE won't balance endless modes because they're not meant to be endured for as long as a player is willing to remain in them, but until they can no longer survive the onslaught.

 

As for where DE balances equipment and frames?  They can pick any level they want.  I would suggest level 35 at the minimum, but they probably balance closer to 60 anymore.

Edited March 4, 2016 by Littleman88

[Mr.Lube]

16 minutes ago, Littleman88 said:

Changing the way scaling works won't fix power/CC spam.  Breaking the meta that exists will fix the spam, period.  Endless modes are, by intention, meant to crush Tenno after a point.  The fact that Tenno can CC spam enemies to the void and back and keep going LONG after they should have been overwhelmed in normally, properly paced gunplay and casting is proof that the balance is broken - in favor of the Tenno, when it's meant to be in favor of their enemies.

DE won't balance endless modes because they're not meant to be endured for as long as a player is willing to remain in them, but until they can no longer survive the onslaught.

 

As for where DE balances equipment and frames?  They can pick any level they want.  I would suggest level 35 at the minimum, but they probably balance closer to 60 anymore.

Changing the way scaling works won't entirely fix the game, but I believe it is a step in the right direction.

[StabbyTentacles]

On 26/02/2016 at 5:25 AM, motorfirebox said:

I agree. The current Warframe design meta is very "all or nothing". Either you destroy your enemies with ease, or they instagib you. Your CC powers either completely neutralize all enemies, or a nullifier walks in and your CC powers are useless.

And I think that as long as the enemy design meta remains "send hordes of idiots running directly towards you with no thought of tactics or strategy", it's going to remain that way. In order to build a better design meta, DE needs to build a better enemy AI that can use better tactics. 

Send hordes of cannon fodder running directly towards you is the tactics or strategy, its the base of the game, the nuts and bolts... Simple as that; yes there maybe needs to be changes to this but removing this is as wise as removing all powers from warframes, or taking away parkour,  it would be a game changer; and not in a good way.

DE is engineering a better design meta, with its specialist enemy; they utilize new maneuvers, strategies, I'm not being a fanboy about this, specialist enemies need to be boosted as missions move into endgame; and replaced even with specialist enemy tier-challenging, tier-imposing, tier-preposterous. DE needs to build better enemies, and build better enemies AI, I believe that they are. Rome wasn't... 

[motorfirebox]

5 minutes ago, StabbyTentacles said:

Send hordes of cannon fodder running directly towards you is the tactics or strategy, its the base of the game, the nuts and bolts... Simple as that; yes there maybe needs to be changes to this but removing this is as wise as removing all powers from warframes, or taking away parkour,  it would be a game changer; and not in a good way.

DE is engineering a better design meta, with its specialist enemy; they utilize new maneuvers, strategies, I'm not being a fanboy about this, specialist enemies need to be boosted as missions move into endgame; and replaced even with specialist enemy tier-challenging, tier-imposing, tier-preposterous. DE needs to build better enemies, and build better enemies AI, I believe that they are. Rome wasn't... 

I don't agree that it's the nuts and bolts of the game. The nuts and bolts of the game is fighting hordes of enemies, yes, but that doesn't mean they have to be stupid enemies.

[Lost_Cartographer]

50 minutes ago, Mr.Lube said:

Changing the way scaling works won't entirely fix the game, but I believe it is a step in the right direction.

In the end, the scaling is going to be infinite.  What defines a "step in the right direction" at that point?  It's a matter of when will the enemy become too much to handle?

At best, DE can crunch down all of the numbers (health pools, shield pools, damage outputs) of weapons and enemies such that the Boltor Prime isn't so outrageously more powerful than the Boltor for one example, and bring heavy gunners and lancers closer together in terms of durability so that one isn't getting one shot while the other is soaking entire magazines, but beyond that, there will always be "best weapons" and setups because people will try and go as far in an endless mode as they are willing to as easily as they can.

[StabbyTentacles]

13 minutes ago, StabbyTentacles said:

Send hordes of cannon fodder running directly towards you is the tactics or strategy, its the base of the game, the nuts and bolts... Simple as that; yes there maybe needs to be changes to this but removing this is as wise as removing all powers from warframes, or taking away parkour,  it would be a game changer; and not in a good way.

Grouping up and running at killing machines, while large numbers of your compatriots lie dead around them, (having just run blindly at said killing machines) is rather, let’s say, ‘shortsighted’. And this is a fundamental component of the warframe experience. To remove it by changing the enemies AI (behavior) would remove a fundamental component (and let’s face it a satisfying, rewarding one) of the warframe experiences.

[Mr.Lube]

9 minutes ago, Littleman88 said:

In the end, the scaling is going to be infinite.  What defines a "step in the right direction" at that point?  It's a matter of when will the enemy become too much to handle?

At best, DE can crunch down all of the numbers (health pools, shield pools, damage outputs) of weapons and enemies such that the Boltor Prime isn't so outrageously more powerful than the Boltor for one example, and bring heavy gunners and lancers closer together in terms of durability so that one isn't getting one shot while the other is soaking entire magazines, but beyond that, there will always be "best weapons" and setups because people will try and go as far in an endless mode as they are willing to as easily as they can.

The problem with infinite scaling is that when we get a new weapon or Warframe that can for further than the others, THAT becomes the new "end game". Then everything that cannot achieve that level of play is far less valuable. If enemies had a power cap it would be significantly easier to balance content around.

[Kettunen]

18 minutes ago, Mr.Lube said:

The problem with infinite scaling is that when we get a new weapon or Warframe that can for further than the others, THAT becomes the new "end game". Then everything that cannot achieve that level of play is far less valuable. If enemies had a power cap it would be significantly easier to balance content around.

To a degree. But many of the strategies in "end game" are not constrained by stats and numbers. Radial disarm, blind and slow are just as effective regardless of what level enemies are. Maybe DE's idea of making direct damage skills scale with level is totally backwards. Maybe skills with infinite scaling should have diminishing returns with level. Lets call it "resistance" for example. Blinds and debuffs would get weaker and shorter exponentially. Reduction would be quite negligible in starchart mission but spike after that. This would  limit the insanity of armor and damage scaling of enemies since other factors would probably make you leave quite a bit sooner than when just the scaling would do it. In addition mods (and to lesser extend the weapons) should have reduced effects. In my opinion the difference between modded and unmodded weapons shouldn't be 30x+.

After that it should mostly be about making enemies acting smarter and more aggressive instead of running aimlessly from cover to cover every two seconds. What I'd like to see instead of extreme "end game" is wider (or any) selection of challenging normal content.

[----Fenrir----]

On 26.2.2016 at 11:14 AM, DiabolusUrsus said:

1. Nerf the Fleeting Expertise + Streamline combo. This stops the spam-casting.

No, all you do is making EV Trinity even more mandatory than it is already. Just take a look at the recruitment chat. EV Trinity is already the most requested warframe.

[DiabolusUrsus]

2 hours ago, ----Fenrir---- said:

No, all you do is making EV Trinity even more mandatory than it is already. Just take a look at the recruitment chat. EV Trinity is already the most requested warframe.

K. Then nerf Trinity and/or tweak the energy system to better facilitate regaining energy even without a Trin.

[Mr.Lube]

2 hours ago, Kettunen said:

To a degree. But many of the strategies in "end game" are not constrained by stats and numbers. Radial disarm, blind and slow are just as effective regardless of what level enemies are. Maybe DE's idea of making direct damage skills scale with level is totally backwards. Maybe skills with infinite scaling should have diminishing returns with level. Lets call it "resistance" for example. Blinds and debuffs would get weaker and shorter exponentially. Reduction would be quite negligible in starchart mission but spike after that. This would  limit the insanity of armor and damage scaling of enemies since other factors would probably make you leave quite a bit sooner than when just the scaling would do it. In addition mods (and to lesser extend the weapons) should have reduced effects. In my opinion the difference between modded and unmodded weapons shouldn't be 30x+.

After that it should mostly be about making enemies acting smarter and more aggressive instead of running aimlessly from cover to cover every two seconds. What I'd like to see instead of extreme "end game" is wider (or any) selection of challenging normal content.

I can see your point, and I do agree that diminishing returns would be great. 

[Mr.Lube]

12 minutes ago, DiabolusUrsus said:

K. Then nerf Trinity and/or tweak the energy system to better facilitate regaining energy even without a Trin.

I'm totally behind nerfing Trinity. She pretty much overhsadows every other Warframe that heals.

Edited March 5, 2016 by Mr.Lube

[Asgaeroth]

6 hours ago, Currilicious said:

The main issue here isn't with the abilities. People get pigeon-holed into a particular build is because of either efficiency or it's simply mandatory. It's the mandatory part that is the issue. Like any team based game, once strict coordination is required, people tend to gravitate towards a viable solution that has the most lenient execution curve, in this case mass CC. This is true for most RPGs out there. You want to raid the highest level dungeon, you build your gear to fill a role, often a build only viable in certain situations (IE: 2s EV Trin, Link completely gimped, Bless half-gimped).

The question is, what does the community want in end-game? Challenging content or just stat checks?

Challenging content will mean most gear setups will not be viable in end game. You cannot be effective and play what you want most of the time and the game punishes your team brutally if you do attempt that.

OTOH, a gear check end game is much more relaxing. You build your gear. Effectiveness is not such a bother as long as your gear is properly leveled and modded. But the content will get stale after a while.

How is CC spam challenging content? It's the opposite of that. They should put all CCs on very long cooldowns so they must be used strategically and rebalance the content so it isn't nearly impossible to play without CC spam. 

Edited March 5, 2016 by Asgaeroth

[Mr.Lube]

Just now, Asgaeroth said:

How is CC spam challenging content? It's the opposite of that. They should put all CCs on timers so they must be used strategically and rebalance the content so it isn't nearly impossible to play without CC spam. 

CC spam isn't challenging content. As for cooldowns, DE has stated multiple times that they will not implement cooldowns in the game. I'm not exactly sure why, but it is what it is. The next best thing would be diminishing returns, which would essentially do the same thing as cooldowns but in a less harsh way.

[Currilicious]

2 hours ago, Asgaeroth said:

How is CC spam challenging content? It's the opposite of that. They should put all CCs on very long cooldowns so they must be used strategically and rebalance the content so it isn't nearly impossible to play without CC spam. 

The use of CC alone to counter enemies isn't, you're right. But, the thought that goes into planning and changing your gear, in order to fully exploit weaknesses of mobs, is as much a part of the challenge as real time actions in battle.

 

 

[WinteRcat1]

I think reworking the enemy's AI and scaling would fix a lot, but not all, of the problems. See, the core gameplay of Warframe is very satisfying. Being able to flip and jump around, learning what does and doesn't interrupt your reload, using abilities in tandem with your teammates and your own weapons, etc. Unfortunately, the current meta for end game content negates all of that and replaces it with spamming a few certain abilities present on a few certain warframes.

Right now, invulnerability powers and CC powers replace the ability to dodge. Damage output and number of enemies replaces improved enemy intelligence and speed.

As an example, when I tried out Nezha I actually was super impressed by how unique he felt. I was able to take on very high level enemies, when there were very few of them, by just dodging and sliding around so they couldn't focus on me. When you slide behind an enemy, it takes them a second to reacquire you as a target and start shooting you again. That's the kind of gameplay that should be encouraged.

[Mr.Lube]

On 3/5/2016 at 1:42 AM, WinteRcat1 said:

I think reworking the enemy's AI and scaling would fix a lot, but not all, of the problems. See, the core gameplay of Warframe is very satisfying. Being able to flip and jump around, learning what does and doesn't interrupt your reload, using abilities in tandem with your teammates and your own weapons, etc. Unfortunately, the current meta for end game content negates all of that and replaces it with spamming a few certain abilities present on a few certain warframes.

Right now, invulnerability powers and CC powers replace the ability to dodge. Damage output and number of enemies replaces improved enemy intelligence and speed.

As an example, when I tried out Nezha I actually was super impressed by how unique he felt. I was able to take on very high level enemies, when there were very few of them, by just dodging and sliding around so they couldn't focus on me. When you slide behind an enemy, it takes them a second to reacquire you as a target and start shooting you again. That's the kind of gameplay that should be encouraged.

Very good points. However, reworking the AI to be "smarter" is challenging and may be beyond DE's limitations. In my opinion a simple fix would be to either cap enemy level or specifically choose a level to balance content around. Also, diminishing returns should be applied to all enemies to prevent ability spam from being the best way to do things. After that DE could add in more enemy units that are smarter or do different things, but the core needs to change first.

[CS0310]

On 26.2.2016 at 7:33 AM, Gurpgork said:

I could not agree more. Infinite scaling is the source of almost every single balance problem in this game. 

Fortunately Damage 3.0 is in the pipelines, and that should change things for the better. 

Didn't they also say the same thing about Damage 2.0?

[motorfirebox]

Well, in terms of making the enemy smarter, the simplest way is to cheat. You don't have to give each enemy a full set of reactive behaviors with which to respond to every situation. You set up group tactics, like ambushes and counterattacks, and spawn groups that are prepared to carry out those tactics. If a group is going to set up an ambush, they spawn already in position to start the ambush, and they wait there until the Tenno walk into kill zone.

[Mr.Lube]

41 minutes ago, motorfirebox said:

Well, in terms of making the enemy smarter, the simplest way is to cheat. You don't have to give each enemy a full set of reactive behaviors with which to respond to every situation. You set up group tactics, like ambushes and counterattacks, and spawn groups that are prepared to carry out those tactics. If a group is going to set up an ambush, they spawn already in position to start the ambush, and they wait there until the Tenno walk into kill zone.

That sounds nice, but all that would go to waste if we don't first balance both sides of the equation (Warframes and enemies). Enemy tactics would be completely nullified by one CC ability. This would be a nice addition after everything is toned down and balanced out.

[Mr.Lube]

Added my personal thoughts on what steps should be taken to better balance the combat in Warframe. Feedback is appreciated.

[Xzorn]

-You don't need to cap enemy level you only need to address enemy damage output, a simple softcap would suffice. Removing the scaling removes a part of the game that some of us enjoy.

-Diminishing returns is a band-aid fix that WoW made popular because of PvP,

 

The more respected PvP games in the world do not use DR either because they have properly balance CC. If you'd like a look into the future of CC DR in a PvE game like Warframe you need only look at Diablo3. When they introduced CC DR they instantly killed CC roles for most the classes. Later when they strengthened the DR they killed the remaining 1-2 classes that had a viable CC role (Fear WD and something else, I don't remember.)

DR is not the answer, the proper way to address CC is the go through and balance every single CC ability in the game. But I doubt that's going to happen.

If you want people to take on other roles over CC / Damage you need to make those other roles viable. Defensive stats are all but useless in this game because dying has no repercussions. Since they've recently made it matter even less, as you now get 4-6 lives per mission instead of per day I don't see any other roles in this game besides damage and CC.There's no reason for Trinity anymore, who cares if you die and Zenurik is all the energy you need.

For that "Hardcore mode" having 0 lives would do a lot in terms of support frame likes Trinity.

[Mr.Lube]

29 minutes ago, Xzorn said:

-You don't need to cap enemy level you only need to address enemy damage output, a simple softcap would suffice. Removing the scaling removes a part of the game that some of us enjoy.

-Diminishing returns is a band-aid fix that WoW made popular because of PvP,

 

The more respected PvP games in the world do not use DR either because they have properly balance CC. If you'd like a look into the future of CC DR in a PvE game like Warframe you need only look at Diablo3. When they introduced CC DR they instantly killed CC roles for most the classes. Later when they strengthened the DR they killed the remaining 1-2 classes that had a viable CC role (Fear WD and something else, I don't remember.)

DR is not the answer, the proper way to address CC is the go through and balance every single CC ability in the game. But I doubt that's going to happen.

If you want people to take on other roles over CC / Damage you need to make those other roles viable. Defensive stats are all but useless in this game because dying has no repercussions. Since they've recently made it matter even less, as you now get 4-6 lives per mission instead of per day I don't see any other roles in this game besides damage and CC.There's no reason for Trinity anymore, who cares if you die and Zenurik is all the energy you need.

For that "Hardcore mode" having 0 lives would do a lot in terms of support frame likes Trinity.

Capping the scaling is not the same as removing it. Enemies will stop gaining armor/health/damage at level 100 and other means of difficulty will be introduced once enemies reach that cap.

I don't see the disadvantage of diminishing returns. Without cooldowns or any real restriction on energy (thanks to streamline/fleeting/primed flow) there is no real way to balance CC abilities and prevent them from being spammed. As for damage abilities, I think that damage abilities should have percent damage scaling based on enemies health or armor.

 

[Xzorn]

2 hours ago, Mr.Lube said:

Capping the scaling is not the same as removing it. Enemies will stop gaining armor/health/damage at level 100 and other means of difficulty will be introduced once enemies reach that cap.

I don't see the disadvantage of diminishing returns. Without cooldowns or any real restriction on energy (thanks to streamline/fleeting/primed flow) there is no real way to balance CC abilities and prevent them from being spammed. As for damage abilities, I think that damage abilities should have percent damage scaling based on enemies health or armor.

 

Introducing special global effects can be good and bad, getting stuck with RNG global special effects could be far worse than a one shot rocket. Augmented Armor + Psychical Resistance for example. I'm not saying it's a bad idea or that it couldn't work I just have doubts. I don't see it being address in any sensible manner and it's a lot of work. Back in the day I did a lvl 1275 Defense, but that was back when it took 10-15min to get one void key, now they rain from the sky and the loot tables for endless missions are the worst of all types. They've really made little reason to care anymore.

Biggest problem with CC DR in Warframe is that majority of CC you have little control over, it's all massive AoE and there are multiple players. Right now if you have two Nyx in a party they simply overlap each others Chaos, with DR they get everyone killed. This game isn't coordinated enough to manage DR timers and just like Diablo there are a lot of abilities that have CC attached to them so you can't choose not to CC with an otherwise damage ability.

In other games like WoW where DR makes for a half decent band-aid; CC and Damage are for the most part clearly different abilities.

I'd start by giving energy value again. Right now waaaaay too much energy drops, they nerfed health orbs, dunno why they left energy orbs and Zenurik is just stupid OP. This would have been a much better balance change than re-introducing the Shock Eximus cheese, which really only destroys melee and Energy Drain channel abilities which really only destroys Valkyr.

Edited March 9, 2016 by Xzorn

[Mr.Lube]

The Global effects are there to force the player out of the mission, but I do agree that they shouldn't be implemented in a cheesy way. Maybe something like reduced shields, fog, higher density of elite enemy types, doubled mob spawns. 

Diminishing returns would only take effect on your next ability cast. The DRs would not effect other players' abilities. As for abilities with damage and CC, I feel like the DR should be applied to the ability as a whole, including the damage. So for each consecutive cast on an enemy, your damage will be reduced. This however would only work if damage scaled with enemy level, so players have to save the perfect time to nuke the room with spectacular results and ultimates can feel like ultimates again.