Tonkor: Let's fix easy mode

[cx-dave]

1 hour ago, EDYinnit said:

Sortie 3 solo with other weapons, so you have some actual comparisons to make on how much easier it was or was not to actually eke out a success (in a fundamentally broken mission type, considering that unscaling integrity on a large stationary defense target).

You were saying?

[TheLexiConArtist]

3 hours ago, cx-dave said:

You were saying?

I was saying that only completing it with the Tonkor is a useless data point, as one point does not make any sort of graph from which correlations and best-fit averages can be drawn.

Congratulations, you still posted full of sound and fury, but signifying nothing. My phrasing even directly implied that it was possible to complete with other gear (pending definitions of 'legit'), because binary win/lose was never in question. With enough CC or free time (and some manner of not getting killed), any loadout can win the mission, even if they do so <=20 Cryotic at a time because they can't even kill a Carrier. Boring and irritating, but possible.

[RealPandemonium]

Isn't saying "content is too hard so we need Tonkor-tier weapons to smooth it out" itself a fallacy?  DE will never have to be accountable for tuning their content if players just use bandaids to coast through it, and that's how powercreep started to spiral out of control in the first place.  I, personally (and there are many posters here that seem horrified at the prospect) would be perfectly happy if Tenno tools were nerfed across the board and we had to figure out how to do Sorties and Raids without the cheese for a while.  DE would get some data about what it's like to play the game reasonably, and players might realize that there's more to the game than they thought.  Sorties/raids would no doubt be frustrating, but they could be tuned to a more reasonable state; what we have now is far from core gameplay, with such draconian difficulty that the difference between a veteran player with good habits and a fresh MR5  with corrupted mods + noobtube is not very pronounced.  

[cx-dave]

46 minutes ago, EDYinnit said:

I was saying that only completing it with the Tonkor is a useless data point, as one point does not make any sort of graph from which correlations and best-fit averages can be drawn.

Congratulations, you still posted full of sound and fury, but signifying nothing. My phrasing even directly implied that it was possible to complete with other gear (pending definitions of 'legit'), because binary win/lose was never in question. With enough CC or free time (and some manner of not getting killed), any loadout can win the mission, even if they do so <=20 Cryotic at a time because they can't even kill a Carrier. Boring and irritating, but possible.

We're discussing the effectiveness of a weapon and you come up with yet another rationalization, even after I specifically stated you had to digg and defend your Excavators.

My point was that the Tonkor wasn't optimal in this mission. Especially, when playing solo. One miss and you or your Excavator could be gone. The shots coming from the Mutalist Osprey were extremely lethal. 

...I'm sure you'll just disregard all the game mechanics related to the effectiveness of the Tonkor again and go back to your incomplete math. I can assure you of one thing however. Whomever designed this weapon at DE knows exactly how it works and they will not nerf it just because you show them some big numbers or a load of blown up low level cannon fodder.

[Magneu]

7 hours ago, cx-dave said:

Complete 1000 Cryotic (legit way) in today's Sortie 3 solo with Tonkor. Then, come here and claim it's still OP.

Since when is completing a mission designed for four players, by yourself, an indicator of balance? Especially as your "legit way" is apparently ignoring frame CC, with which any Infested mission (and many others) is horrendously easy.

You're just throwing out a red herring of "Oh, I can't solo a "defend objective" mission by myself with this weapon, it isn't OP". I could spam a max range Chilling Globe (max efficiency, Zenurik, energy pads) and only stop to kill carriers with practically any weapon, then claim whatever weapons I brought are capable of completing said mission (I would need to kill a grand total of 40 carriers in a single run...how difficult, especially considering they would be CCed). Would it take forever, depending on the weapon? Yes. Would it still get done? Yes. I could take down carriers with just a Kestrel, then claim the Kestrel is OP by your strategy.

Your argument falls flat, because no weapon is capable of mass CC like abilities have, they (usually) only excel at killing...which the Tonkor does better than anything else. In your later post, you also brought Nyx. I'm willing to bet your had Chaos Sphere installed, which would make defending against Infested (they have to cross the line of the sphere) a breeze, especially as you can recast whenever. Simply shoot down a carrier every 20 seconds with the Vaykor Hek (personally, an example of a powerful weapon done correctly), and you're golden.

If considering CC potential, the Tonkor still wins. The best CC is death, after all.

 

EDIT: Just noticed the Sonicor in your loadout, a high damage, AOE weapon, that forcibly ragdolls enemies...yep, no cheese strategies involved here. No spamming CC weapons/abilities at all, folks!

Edited April 17, 2016 by Magneu

[Magneu]

1 hour ago, cx-dave said:

My point was that the Tonkor wasn't optimal in this mission. Especially, when playing solo. One miss and you or your Excavator could be gone. The shots coming from the Mutalist Osprey were extremely lethal. 

The Tonkor wasn't optimal against large, clumped crowds of squishy enemies? Then what is? The Tonkor excels the most against crowds compared to any other weapon.

1 hour ago, cx-dave said:

Whomever designed this weapon at DE knows exactly how it works and they will not nerf it just because you show them some big numbers or a load of blown up low level cannon fodder.

Implying that DE achieves perfect balance every hotfix. By that logic, Volt shield stacking was balanced, old Molecular Prime was balanced, old Acrid/Synoid Gammacor were balanced, etc. DE has shown they are fallible with game-balance; that's half the reason we have feedback forums and hotfixes.

The Tonkor also doesn't just "blow up low level cannon fodder". You yourself posted a screenshot of AOE, six-digits of damage. Literally no other weapon in the game can do that, to say nothing of the fact that the Tonkor poses no danger to the user.

Edited April 17, 2016 by Magneu
Mixed up "fallible" and "infallible".

[cx-dave]

1 minute ago, Magneu said:

Since when is completing a mission designed for four players, by yourself, an indicator of balance? Especially as your "legit way" is apparently ignoring frame CC, with which any Infested mission (and many others) is horrendously easy.

You're just throwing out a red herring of "Oh, I can't solo a "defend objective" mission by myself with this weapon, it isn't OP". I could spam a max range Chilling Globe (max efficiency, Zenurik, energy pads) and only stop to kill carriers with practically any weapon, then claim whatever weapons I brought are capable of completing said mission (I would need to kill a grand total of 40 carriers in a single run...how difficult, especially considering they would be CCed). Would it take forever, depending on the weapon? Yes. Would it still get done? Yes. I could take down carriers with just a Kestrel, then claim the Kestrel is OP by your strategy.

Only someone that hasn't done it would write that. The spawn mechanics and Mutalist Ospreys in that specific Sortie will not let you simply CC and get a fuel cell. Do that and you can almost count on that your Excavator will be destroyed. Spamming your Globe isn't really an option either. At some point you'll be dead too. You'd be there just wasting your time and BS'ing your way to the end.

No Tonkor nerf is going to fix anything related to power creep in this game. It's too late for that. A complete rework of the damage models and enemies is required for "balance".

[cx-dave]

11 minutes ago, Magneu said:

The Tonkor wasn't optimal against large, clumped crowds of squishy enemies? Then what is? The Tonkor excels the most against crowds compared to any other weapon.

Implying that DE achieves perfect balance every hotfix. By that logic, Volt shield stacking was balanced, old Molecular Prime was balanced, old Acrid/Synoid Gammacor were balanced, etc. DE has shown they are infallible with game-balance; that's half the reason we have feedback forums and hotfixes.

Like I wrote: Play it before you claim to know how it goes. The Tonkor has been around unchanged for a long time now DE knows how it works.

 

17 minutes ago, Magneu said:

The Tonkor also doesn't just "blow up low level cannon fodder". You yourself posted a screenshot of AOE, six-digits of damage. Literally no other weapon in the game can do that, to say nothing of the fact that the Tonkor poses no danger to the user.

...and yet it wasn't the best tool for the job. Go figure!  ....but...but...but..my math says so, what about my math mom!

[RealPandemonium]

45 minutes ago, cx-dave said:

Like I wrote: Play it before you claim to know how it goes. The Tonkor has been around unchanged for a long time now DE knows how it works.

Things like GPull, Miasma bug, Vivergate, Excaliburgate, etc show that DE is often way out of touch with what's going on in their game and the implications of what they release.  They are criminally understaffed and don't have time to play their own game for qualified feedback, and it shows.  

Edited April 17, 2016 by RealPandemonium

[Magneu]

1 hour ago, cx-dave said:

Like I wrote: Play it before you claim to know how it goes. The Tonkor has been around unchanged for a long time now DE knows how it works.

 

...and yet it wasn't the best tool for the job. Go figure!  ....but...but...but..my math says so, what about my math mom!

You completely ignored the facts about previous balance mistakes, and how DE is far from perfect for balancing. Nicely done. Yes, I've played the Tonkor. I put about five forma on it, because I obsessively forma everything new. Haven't touched it in months, but I'm familiar with its insane capabilities. Did you not see the screenshot with Chroma from IceColdHawk? Your own, non-buffed, 6 digit AOE hit? It's so far overkill for the game it isn't even funny.

Saying the Tonkor wasn't the best tool for the job is a bit misleading; it's deliberately ignoring the true statement about damage vs mechanics. Show me another weapon that can easily do 6 digits of damage consistently, in the largest (AFAIK) AOE radius of all explosive weapons, posing negligible risk to the user, obtainable super early in progression. The same logic lets me say that Valkyr godmode is balanced because she can't defend a pod, ignoring the fact that she can solo two hours T4S solo; it's not the fact that she can solo it, the problem is that she can solo it with zero personal risk. Just slap on (Primed) Reach and nullifiers become a non-issue. The same logic lets me say Blind Mirage spam is balanced because "Mirage is squishy"...except enemies never get the chance to attack you. You actually break the game with that strategy, removing enemy risk.

As for excavation, enemies spawn, enemies attack Excavator. Chaos Sphere keeps them at a respectable distance, aggroed on each other; new enemies will either be targeted by Chaos'ed enemies, or hit the sphere and aggro elsewhere. It's a simple matter of taking out Ospreys, recasting Chaos for a stun, grabbing a cell, rinse and repeat. You also haven't addressed me calling out the Sonicor, which is god-tier weapon CC, forcibly ragdolling enemies away with extremely high damage; that alone makes it even easier. Target distracted Osprey with Vaykor Hek, blow everything else away with Sonicor/distract with Chaos, grab cell. Absorb if needed; that's the first strategy I think of with the loadout.

Claiming "spawn mechanics and Ospreys" wouldn't let me spam CC is incorrect. Spam CC to keep them at a distance, shoot down Ospreys, grab cell. Just avoid Ancients and Moas (lo and behold, Globe would do a great job of that), and you're golden.

1 hour ago, cx-dave said:

Only someone that hasn't done it would write that.

Kek. By that logic, I would have to get in a car crash to know how bad it is? Or personally experience discrimination to understand what it is? 

That's an ad hominem ("poisoning the well, to be precise), by  attempting to discredit future arguments by discrediting me, a bit of "No true Scotsman", a splash of "false dilemma" (saying I have to have tried it to understand it, ignoring alternatives), and " Argumentum ad lapidem", "appealing to the stone", by dismissing my argument as unfounded, without proving why.

EDYinnit is using  math to prove the Tonkor's massive outlier status compared to any other weapon in the game. The problem is, its "downsides" don't justify its massive power, or even come close to it. Most likely, we'll just have to wait for DE to someday release usage statistics to justify our arguments (although by formal logic, we're already justified).

Edited April 17, 2016 by Magneu

[DeadlyPeanutt]

On 4/15/2016 at 3:03 PM, EDYinnit said:

Are you required to play in the same squad as people who don't want to see a Tonkor? No.

Are you free to start a squad in which you make it clear the Tonkor will be a factor? Yes.

Are you free to play with a squad of people who don't mind the weapons you don't like, or solo? Yes.

Would that allow other players to avoid the weapons they don't enjoy (such as Tonkor)? Yes.

What you're saying is, in essence, "I like the Tonkor. And because I like the Tonkor, I should be able to play it despite it detracting from the gameplay experience of the rest of my squad".

Keep in mind that more people using Tonkor as it is does not define whether they like it nor does it define what is right; argument by popularity is fallacious

(I assume you play a multiplayer game to enjoy yourself as part of a group, not to ruin other people's fun with an imbalanced weapon.)

Number of squads in recruiting chat or clan chat that do not allow tonkor? zero

Number of players in a squad who complain that other players use tonkor? zero

Number of players in an average squad of 4 that are using tonkor in mid/upper level missions? 2-3

Number of players whose fun is observably ruined by other players in the squad using tonkor? zero

The difference between our perspectives, with due respect, is that you're trying to LIMIT other players' choices.  I'm trying to preserve other player's choices.  You have the choice NOT to play tonkor AND you have the choice NOT to play on any squad that has players that use tonkor.  You seek to stop ALL players from playing tonkor as it is now, therefore stopping ALL players from playing a weapon that many enjoy.

In a PvE game, the fact that many players use tonkor simply does not have to effect you if you take certain actions (such as starting a squad and stipulating 'no tonkors, please').  

For whatever reason, you're trying to limit other players choices and control how they play their game.  For my part, I'm simply standing up for the MANY players who enjoy the weapon and would be furious if it were nerfed. 

I find your aim, tone and reasoning to be unsustainable, illogical and somewhat arrogant. 

 

[cx-dave]

1 hour ago, Magneu said:

The same logic lets me say that Valkyr godmode is balanced because she can't defend a pod, ignoring the fact that she can solo two hours T4S solo; it's not the fact that she can solo it, the problem is that she can solo it with zero personal risk. Just slap on (Primed) Reach and nullifiers become a non-issue. The same logic lets me say Blind Mirage spam is balanced because "Mirage is squishy"...except enemies never get the chance to attack you. You actually break the game with that strategy, removing enemy risk.

I can't take anything you write seriously. The above already shows you haven't done it recently or at all for that matter. I can go two hours solo T4S with several other frames as well. Some actually do it better than Valkyr.

You're just taking what you've experienced in one mode and blindly applying it to another. If you had played Sortie 3 solo with Mirage you'd know that the Mutalist Osprey will still target and kill you when blinded with Prism and having Hall of Mirrors active.

 

1 hour ago, Magneu said:

As for excavation, enemies spawn, enemies attack Excavator. Chaos Sphere keeps them at a respectable distance, aggroed on each other; new enemies will either be targeted by Chaos'ed enemies, or hit the sphere and aggro elsewhere. It's a simple matter of taking out Ospreys, recasting Chaos for a stun, grabbing a cell, rinse and repeat. You also haven't addressed me calling out the Sonicor, which is god-tier weapon CC, forcibly ragdolling enemies away with extremely high damage; that alone makes it even easier. Target distracted Osprey with Vaykor Hek, blow everything else away with Sonicor/distract with Chaos, grab cell. Absorb if needed; that's the first strategy I think of with the loadout.

If you had actually played it, you'd know that there was a great likelihood for an individual unit to spawn near the Excavator as soon as you weren't looking while being only 10ft or so away from it. Even with that stupid mod equipped the enemy would have charged and destroyed the Extractor instantly.

...is it beginning to sink in yet when you read: play it first before commenting?

[Magneu]

2 hours ago, cx-dave said:

I can't take anything you write seriously. The above already shows you haven't done it recently or at all for that matter. I can go two hours solo T4S with several other frames as well. Some actually do it better than Valkyr.

You're just taking what you've experienced in one mode and blindly applying it to another. If you had played Sortie 3 solo with Mirage you'd know that the Mutalist Osprey will still target and kill you when blinded with Prism and having Hall of Mirrors active.

 

If you had actually played it, you'd know that there was a great likelihood for an individual unit to spawn near the Excavator as soon as you weren't looking while being only 10ft or so away from it. Even with that stupid mod equipped the enemy would have charged and destroyed the Extractor instantly.

...is it beginning to sink in yet when you read: play it first before commenting?

You have yet to address any of my arguments, but I'll elect to ignore that for now. Don't worry, we'll come back to it (however, as for your T4S claim; I find it hard to believe you can do two hours solo with "several other frames". The only way possible I'm seeing this is invincibility/invisibility cheese, CC cheese, abusing spawn points, etc. Not saying it's impossible, just hard to believe).

As for Mirage, I was applying her as an example of being unbalanced in other game modes; however, I chose to humor you and run some tests. Mutalist Carriers will attack you...if you fire a loud gun. However, they will only target the area the noise came from. Walk a few meters, and suddenly you're safe again. Thanks for taking my general example and attempting to Texas Sharpshooter it to make it seem invalid. I was applying Prism Spam as an example of something that trivializes gameplay to an obscene level, similar to the Tonkor (especially when compared to other weapons).

I also ran a test with Nyx. Casting Chaos (Sphere) with Boilers in the radius, then causing them to spawn light Infested...instantly applies Chaos to the spawned enemies. If enemies are "spawning near the Excavator when you look away", Chaos Sphere would still affect them, making it highly likely that they would aggro on another enemies, and at the very least, stun them for long enough to, in your case, spam Sonicor shots near them. As is, I know of no spawn points so close to an Excavator that you wouldn't notice the enemy radar before they attacked.

That said, the point of my two examples was how certain pieces of gear carry massive amounts of power, and remove all personal risk. Staying on topic, the Tonkor deals the highest single target DPS in game, but applies it in a large AOE. It is ammo efficient, easy to use (what other explosive has an aim guide???), obtainable before any other explosive primary besides the Torid (which is almost an entirely different class of weapon), and removes the largest drawback that justifies the power of explosives, self-damage. The rocket jump is not a reason to keep low self-damage; we have parkour 2.0. Even though it's an anecdote, I haven't seen someone use that "feature" since parkour 2.0.

Even ignoring all of those greatly justified reasons, and as many people before me have calculated, thanks to base damage and inflated crit stats, the Tonkor is miles, leagues, light-years ahead damage wise of the next place launcher, not to even consider all other weapons in the game (by the way; the Tonkor wins). If it had self-damage (even a capped 300-500), I'd be mostly ok with it. If it used the suggested shaped charge mechanic, I'd be ok with it. If it was obtainable at a minimum of MR10, I'd be more ok with it. However, as is, it's a piece of gear that skews the game's power curve MUCH too far north. Go watch the Extra Credit's video on power creep, then come back. It clearly explains why powercreep is bad both for game health, and long term playerbase satisfaction.

Coming back to my opening statement; so far, in our exchange, all you've done is dodge my criticisms and do your best to shift the burden of proof to me, ad hominem me, and outright dismissed my arguments without attempting to counter them; any of these would get you kicked out of an actual debate. You have yet to provide your own argument besides "Don't nerf the Tonkor". Your fallback response to my claims and arguments is "You could only understand if you played it", to which I refer to my car crash/discrimination analogy (which you also ignored). The best argument of yours I could dredge up was "Tonkor isn't OP, stuff like Covert Lethality is OP", which, aside from being a massive red herring (as previously pointed out), is completely incorrect, as the criteria to fulfill a dagger OHK is much higher than simply shooting a grenade at the enemy.

The power of the Tonkor is so great that it will retain a OHK on most every enemy but heavies up sortie 3 level when properly modded (only for Grineer; for Corpus and Infested, I'm honestly not sure when you'd stop OHK); even then, it's not much more than a two hit kill. Even if it takes four grenades, that's dodging the issue that a weapon designed for AOE is taking out single targets faster than everything short of a dedicated single target weapon like a sniper. In a nutshell, ignoring problems with powercreep and content trivialization, that's the problem with the Tonkor; it far oversteps its boundaries as a launcher.

And just to be facetious, how do we know your solo run screenshot was from the sortie? It could have been from any excavation (although the drops do prove Infested). Isn't cherry-picking fun? 

[TheLexiConArtist]

4 hours ago, DeadlyPeanutt said:

Number of squads in recruiting chat or clan chat that do not allow tonkor? zero

Number of players in a squad who complain that other players use tonkor? zero

Number of players in an average squad of 4 that are using tonkor in mid/upper level missions? 2-3

Number of players whose fun is observably ruined by other players in the squad using tonkor? zero

The difference between our perspectives, with due respect, is that you're trying to LIMIT other players' choices.  I'm trying to preserve other player's choices.  You have the choice NOT to play tonkor AND you have the choice NOT to play on any squad that has players that use tonkor.  You seek to stop ALL players from playing tonkor as it is now, therefore stopping ALL players from playing a weapon that many enjoy.

In a PvE game, the fact that many players use tonkor simply does not have to effect you if you take certain actions (such as starting a squad and stipulating 'no tonkors, please').  

For whatever reason, you're trying to limit other players choices and control how they play their game.  For my part, I'm simply standing up for the MANY players who enjoy the weapon and would be furious if it were nerfed. 

I find your aim, tone and reasoning to be unsustainable, illogical and somewhat arrogant. 

Number of mechanical ways to enforce said rule (last-second loadout switching being a possibility)? Zero that don't involve wasted time and further frustration as a result.

Number of players in a squad who publicise their complaints about others' Tonkor usage? Closer to (but still not precisely) zero. Doesn't mean they don't have those complaints kept to themselves, even if it's just boredom rather than outright frustration. You can't speak for every player from your experience in your own groups.

Average number of players who should be using a Tonkor in a squad of 4 in mid/upper missions if balanced appropriately? A fraction between 0 and 1. (>=4 other fully viable, competitive alternatives)

Number of players whose fun is observably ruined by a Tonkor: >0. I can observe mine being ruined enough to make me alt-tab instead of fighting for half the mission. Again, neither of us can speak definitively to such an immaterial factor as it applies to others.

You are trying to LIMIT the choices of anyone who wishes to experience the game in a reasonable and balanced way by avoiding the Tonkor: They are not allowed to use public matchmaking. I'm trying to alleviate the problem while not stopping anyone from using it. They have the choice to NOT to play in a setting where their Tonkor usage can affect others, but since I don't want to ban Tonkor from public matchmaking, I look to have its imbalances brought in line to fix the problem overall. The Tonkor as it is has the capacity to stop other players from playing weapons they enjoy to the effect that they can enjoy them, which is unacceptable.

In a PvE game, the fact that the Tonkor can harmfully affect others' gameplay experiences does not have to take effect if the user takes certain actions (such as soloing or starting a squad with a clear indication of Tonkor usage so other players can opt in).

For whatever reason, you're supporting an unhealthy weapon's negative impact and control what parts of the game are allowed to people who don't wish to suffer it. For my part, I'm simply standing up for the health of the very game we play in and the silent players who get bored or frustrated because they can't play their own ways thanks to the Tonkor's disproportionate impact.

I find your aim, tone and reasoning to be unsustainable, illogical, arrogant and selfish. Also, my tone has been to echo (and re-word) yours for these past couple of posts, any arrogance reflects on yourself.

[Magneu]

Alright, so I was just messing around in the Silmulcram. Keep in mind this is all anecdotal, except for the last two examples, as I had no desire to fill my SSD with pictures/video. Enemies used were level 110 Corrupted Gunners (20 of them) and Ancient Healers (20 of them) (at 135, armor gets too insane, and enemies realistically only hit 110-120 in sortie 3). Tonkor build was

Serration

Split Chamber

8/10 Heavy Cal

2x 90% Corrosive Elemental

Argon Scope (would have gone Bladed Rounds, but I'm a point short)

Vital Sense

Point Strike

Using the Tonkor and Wukong, it was simple cheese. I couldn't die, enemies die fast. Against CG (Corrupted Gunners), enemies were dying in 2-4 grenades, depending on red crit RNG. If both multishot grenades hit, it left them at about a third or less health. Nice way to get our base damage established.

Using the Tonkor and Sayrn Prime against CG, the offense was real. It was easily two hit kills on all enemies with Spores, although I was a bit squishy. Still came out on top with minimal parkour.

Using Tonkor and Mirage against CG...wow. When the HoM grenades hit, nothing survived. I was running at 185% power strength too. Rarely took damage unless I got really close, as enemies shot at the clones. This would be even more effective against enemy groups.

Using Rhino Prime and Tonkor (170% strength) against CG was pretty good. With Ironclad Charge/Iron Skin, my IS never went down, and with the 1.85 damage multiplier, headshots either OHK or left them at maybe 10-20% health, depending on RNG.

And lastly, my baby Chroma and Tonkor vs CG...jesus. Only 170% strength, but with that 3.97 damage multiplier, it was OHK if the grenade(s) hit. Against the Ancients, I was seeing results like this (even without buffs, it was a OHK):

Yes. 1.08 million damage. Potentially in an AOE, unlimited targets. This isn't even a super high strength Chroma build, or a max damage Tonkor.

 

To compare, with the Rubico (highest crit multiplier sniper), built for max crit:

Serration 

Split Chamber

2x 90% elemental Corrosive

Point Strike

Vital Sense

Argon Scope

Bladed Rounds (I usually go Primed Fast hands, but for even MORE damage)

The best I got on the Ancients, with a 3.97 multiplier from Vex Armor:

About 1.1 million, after chaining around 3-4 headshots. Not even counting the weapon can't red crit.

So, even with one of the heaviest damage dealing frames in the game, a grenade launcher deals slightly less peak damage than one of the potentially hardest hitting single target weapons in the game. As for average damage per shot, the Tonkor has it beat...and that's not counting the fact that while the Rubico was hitting one target at a time, my Tonkor, in this example, was hitting over ten at a time, never mind the fact that in actual missions, that number  is often higher (especially in endless missions).

If an easily accessible, low skill-ceiling, AOE, no self-damage weapon is beating out a single-target, dedicated heavy killer that requires more player skill to use and limits situational awareness while scoping in, and takes that 97% of peak damage (that number is correct) and applying it in a large AOE...how anyone could defend that as balanced is beyond me.

 

[(PSN)Lord_Gremlin]

Tsk, overall tonkor is fine. But it's a MR15 weapon that's available at MR5.

Pray for mastery lock rebalance. And other launchers need buffs.

[Magneu]

And to add onto EDYinnit's argument of the Tonkor negatively affecting gameplay for other people, I present the following;

Previous "uber OP weapon"

Current "perfectly balanced weapon" (I even miss the first grenade!)

Just showing the powergap between what was just last year considered "top-tier", and is still a very good weapon in its own right, vs the Tonkor. Keep in mind, those are rather general use builds, nothing specialized. Imagine if I was the Soma Prime user trying to gun down some heavies in a large group, when Timmy Tonkor swings on by and...well, you can see the result.

Used level 70 enemies as a nice, standard benchmark for enemies commonly faced. The Tonkor just pulls even further ahead as the levels climb.

The two videos were just uploaded, so apologies for low quality as of now.

 

Edited April 18, 2016 by Magneu

[Magneu]

1 hour ago, (PS4)Lord_Gremlin said:

Tsk, overall tonkor is fine. But it's a MR15 weapon that's available at MR5.

Pray for mastery lock rebalance. And other launchers need buffs.

If we buff other launchers, we set a new standard for damage. And if we have a new standard for damage, new weapons, to be not considered trash by the majority of players, must meet or exceed that damage and/or utility/ease of use. A page or two back I shared two videos on exactly why powercreep is bad for games.

I'm all for strong weapons. But there has to be a limit put in place, someway to slow powercreep down instead of letting it jump forward like crazy.

300-500 self-damage, fix headshot crits in AOE, maybe reduce base damage, maybe implement shaped charge idea, change MR to 12. That's a much more balanced weapon that still wreaks havoc with a good player. Much better than the obscene AOE damage we have available at MR 5 as of now.

[TheLexiConArtist]

2 hours ago, Magneu said:

videos of Soma P vs. Tonkor

 

This is also a visual aid to my returning point against the impact of a Tonkor miss versus the benefit of a hit.

Despite missing few, if any Soma shots, the benefits of hitting were so much lower that even an outright miss with the Tonkor didn't lead to a longer TTK or damage taken (even after the incoming offense was halved due to the Soma killing one of the two targets).

Extrapolate that to a lateral spread of 4 vectors for enemy targets from that same position, which the Tonkor still can kill with a single shot, and missing both grenades and reloading (also, more difficult to actually miss in the first place) would likely still result in a shorter accumulated TTK and less overall damage taken.

 

Rough logical algorithms for the damage taken would look somewhat like this:

e = enemy DPS; ttk = proportional time to kill; m = missed Tonkor shots; f = Tonkor firerate; r = Tonkor reload

Soma Prime (video 1): (2e * ttk) + (1e * ttk) = 3e * ttk  (damage received in the time to kill an enemy with both shooting plus the damage in the time to kill second enemy)

Tonkor (video 2): (2e * ttk) + 2e * (m/f) = (2e * ttk) + 2e * 1/2 = (2e * ttk) + 1e  (damage received from both enemies plus damage multiplied by the delay between shots after 'm' misses). The lack of time-to-kill proportion on the second half (since the missed shot is only measured by a delay-to-next) plus the shorter TTK in general makes this lower than the Soma as we saw.

Soma Prime vs. 4: (4e + 3e + 2e + 1e) * ttk = 7e * ttk (damage from 4, then 3, then 2, then final enemy accumulated over the kills, assuming still no reload)

Tonkor vs. 4: (4e * ttk) + 4e * (m/f) = (4e * ttk) + 1/2 = (4e * ttk) + 2e (damage from the four enemies plus half-damage from the shot delay after one miss)

Tonkor vs. 4 plus reload (2 misses): (4e * ttk) + 4e * (m / f) + 4e * ((m / 2) * r) = (4e * ttk) + 4e * (2 / 2) + 4e * ((2/2) * 2) = (4e * ttk) + 4e + 8e (damage taken from four enemies in time to kill, plus one second's DPS from misses, plus 2 seconds' DPS from reload)

 

So from that, we infer that to make the damage taken equal even after a Tonkor reload, the Soma needs to have something like 2.3 times the proportional TTK (7e*(3*ttk)) = ((4e * ttk) + 12e). If base TTK = 1 second then (7*2.3) > 4+12; 16.1 > 16.

 

In the first video we see Magneu take out two enemies with a Soma from 0:09 to 0:14 (5 seconds). TTK = 2.5. Four enemies would die in 10 seconds.

In the second video we see Magneu take out the enemies by shooting Tonkor grenades at 0:08 (miss) and 0:09 (hit), with the enemies dead by 0:10. TTK = 1. With a firerate and reload of 2 each, four enemies would be dead in 1+ ((2 / 2) + 2) = 4 seconds.

 

QED, in the extrapolation of the shown scenario, even missing both grenades against 4 enemies, reloading and shooting a third to hit would still be in favour of the Tonkor, even if you stood there like a complete pillock while reloading.

[shyguyk]

if only my squad mates were so devoted in a defense mission as these tonkor defenders.

I like the weapon, but damn it's cheesy, and i dont get to shoot things when somebody else brings one

People are more upset about the second half of that^

[Magneu]

1 hour ago, EDYinnit said:

This is also a visual aid to my returning point against the impact of a Tonkor miss versus the benefit of a hit.

Despite missing few, if any Soma shots, the benefits of hitting were so much lower that even an outright miss with the Tonkor didn't lead to a longer TTK or damage taken (even after the incoming offense was halved due to the Soma killing one of the two targets).

Extrapolate that to a lateral spread of 4 vectors for enemy targets from that same position, which the Tonkor still can kill with a single shot, and missing both grenades and reloading (also, more difficult to actually miss in the first place) would likely still result in a shorter accumulated TTK and less overall damage taken.

 

Rough logical algorithms for the damage taken would look somewhat like this:

 

e = enemy DPS; ttk = proportional time to kill; m = missed Tonkor shots; f = Tonkor firerate; r = Tonkor reload

*Math stuff I haven't studied in two years*

In addition to the TTK calculation, don't forget ammo spent (2 grenades, one of which was a mulligan, vs 69 (I did not do that on purpose) bullets used at medium range (I did miss a decent amount/fire too long), as scaling will heavily favor the Tonkor (as it does with all spike weapons). Just so happens that the Tonkor's spike is better than anything else.

In addition, I had Metal Auger installed on the Soma Prime to make it useable against crowds; by its AOE nature, the Tonkor has no need for this and can simply slot more damage, or some QoL if needed (Primed Fast Hands to reduce reload to roughly 1.4 seconds, or increase useability with Terminal Velocity, or whatever your preference is).

Looking back to the past, the Soma Prime was the posterboy for powercreep and overall power in the game, displacing the raw damage Boltor Prime. Critical headshots, high accuracy, massive magazine/reserve ammo, these factors made it the target of many a thread demanding it be toned down.

Fast forward to today, and the Soma Prime, an eptiome of Orokin construction ("...few weapons were as feared as the Prime Soma.") is being outdone by a derpy noob-tube that the Grineer invented.

Funny.

[cx-dave]

Trying to prove how a game or enemy responds based in the Simalacrum is laughable. I'll just skip the BS theorycraft and address the Soma Prime.

It was never a viable weapon for high levels, unless you want to go through 50-100 or more Large Ammo Restores in a match. I've given up 1 slot for damage and stuck in a maxed Primed Ammo Mutation, and still run into ammo economy problems. If you aren't, perhaps you're not killing enough. Might explain why you're having such a hard time with Tonkor players...or it's more like look MR6 beat me with more kills...must do something about that, because with all the time I spend on my calculator and forums I can't practice Warframe enough (you know the actual game).

[Magneu]

29 minutes ago, cx-dave said:

Trying to prove how a game or enemy responds based in the Simalacrum is laughable. I'll just skip the BS theorycraft and address the Soma Prime.

It was never a viable weapon for high levels, unless you want to go through 50-100 or more Large Ammo Restores in a match. I've given up 1 slot for damage and stuck in a maxed Primed Ammo Mutation, and still run into ammo economy problems. If you aren't, perhaps you're not killing enough. Might explain why you're having such a hard time with Tonkor players...or it's more like look MR6 beat me with more kills...must do something about that, because with all the time I spend on my calculator and forums I can't practice Warframe enough (you know the actual game).

Considering I have over 3.1k hours in this game over nearly two and a half years, I'd say it's a fair wager I know how to "play" the game fairly well. At MR21, a lot of what I do is test builds and see how certain interactions work.

^{And fashionframe. True endgame right there.}

As for how enemies respond...it's literally the exact same enemy. Exact damage, armor, health, etc. The only difference is outside factors...except more enemies plays into the Tonkor's favor, making it easier to detonate a grenade. It's not theorycraft. That was actual gameplay being demonstrated. I taped myself using two weapons, and the respective gulf in damage and time to kill, comparing what was the previous "DPS king", and the new, over-inflated king. Denying that is just choosing to be blind.

I don't have a hard time with Tonkor players personally, unless I'm playing melee and trying to just be chill. But that's because I have practically everything in the game maxed and know many tactics with said gear. How's a newer player going to cope with Tonkor spam, except by getting a Tonkor of their own?

It's quickly become not worth the time to respond to you, as all you do is refuse to answer criticisms, spout ad hominem, and claim I don't know what I'm talking about (seriously; I have yet to see you answer one of my arguments), when I've demonstrated through logical argument and actual video evidence that I do indeed know what I'm talking about. I'll take you seriously when you even attempt to refute my arguments, instead of blabbering on about how "You're just mad you're getting out-killed" and "You just don't understand the Tonkor."

Can we please get back to the Tonkor, now?

 

[Phobonaut]

All these walls of texts.

The Tonkor doesn't need to be nerfed. The Tonkor is popular, which goes to show there is a place for explosive weapons in Warframe.

We need to buff the other explosive weapons.

Especially the Mother of All Explosive Weapons, the Ogris. Give them an advantage so big, it's worth it blowing yourself up over and over and over again.

[cx-dave]

5 hours ago, Magneu said:

I don't have a hard time with Tonkor players personally, unless I'm playing melee and trying to just be chill. But that's because I have practically everything in the game maxed and know many tactics with said gear. How's a newer player going to cope with Tonkor spam, except by getting a Tonkor of their own?

There is no Tonkor spam and new players are going to feel the same way when any high ranked player comes in their game with an Ember, Saryn, Ash, Valkyr, Excalibur, etc., etc. etc. We have the ability to ruin any game of a new player. We just don't do it cause there's no fun in it and it's lame.