Tonkor: Let's fix easy mode

[TheBrsrkr]

5 hours ago, DeadlyPeanutt said:

if you don't like the weapon, don't use it.  if you don't want the weapon on your squad, don't allow it. 

but respect other players enough to allow them to enjoy the weapons they enjoy and play their game as they wish.

in a PvE game, since the weapon isn't being shot at you, you have little reason to be concerned with how other players play their game. 

We've been over this before. Both you and I have been over this before. Why bother with a direct repost? It makes no sense. 

[TheBrsrkr]

16 minutes ago, cx-dave said:

Already answered multiple times. The weapon mechanic. 

We've gone over multiple times why that isn't true. Just because you think it's true, doesn't change the fact that it does the highest damage in the largest radius of any weapon in the game, and does so with drawbacks that at least in part account for themselves, which is ridiculous. The only rebuttal to these things are "muh false data" even though you have no explanation to why the data is false besides for it being in the Simaralcum, which isn't a real reason. Just give it up man. 

 

23 minutes ago, cx-dave said:

Instead of acknowledging power creep is part of a bigger wider reaching problem, that has been intensifying for the better part of a year, you chose to resort to scapegoating a single weapon again. It's clear that you and that other guy don't really care about balance. It's just this little thing called Tonkor that you're hellbent on having changed.

Last I checked, the title wasn't Everything in the game:let's fix all of the powercreep. You came to a thread about the Tonkor, to people talking about the Tonkor, and expect them to talk about 15 different meta weapons instead of the Tonkor? It's clear you don't know how thread topics work. 

 

27 minutes ago, cx-dave said:

...or am I completely mistaken and you only react in this manner, because you see dishonesty and ulterior motives behind every word and sentence posted here? I wonder why that is...

Possibly because you're being dishonest? Just a thought? 

 

28 minutes ago, cx-dave said:

..see you in 600 hours when you reach that 3100.

Peace out :)

More weenie wagging. Why are we pretending that hours played means that what you say is more valid than what anyone else says? Whether I joined the game yesterday or I've been playing since Closed beta, it wouldn't change that the Tonkor is OP.

[Drasiel]

5 hours ago, cx-dave said:

<snip>

Instead of acknowledging power creep is part of a bigger wider reaching problem, that has been intensifying for the better part of a year, you chose to resort to scapegoating a single weapon again. It's clear that you and that other guy don't really care about balance. It's just this little thing called Tonkor that you're hellbent on having changed.

...or am I completely mistaken and you only react in this manner, because you see dishonesty and ulterior motives behind every word and sentence posted here? I wonder why that is...see you in 600 hours when you reach that 3100.

Peace out :)

Actually multiple people have commented on both power creep, Armour scaling, warframe imbalance, and broken enemy abilities. Including the two you are referring to. There is a lot that could be better in this game and a lot that needs adjustment. However this thread isn't about any of those broader issues. It's about the specific power level and lack of disadvantages compared to other weapons in its  own weapon class that the tonkor has. Of course people are going to steer the conversation back to the tonkor that is what this discussion is about. If you want to discuss in depth the entirety of the games imbalance and power creep then another thread would be the place to go. 

 

@EDYinnit on phone and quoting picture posts is a nightmare. I'll do a similar test to yours and see how big my variances are. Although I did do my tests multiple times and the results were the same every time. So either firing at feet skews results in the same way every time or I just got incredibly lucky. Also ye gods why can't the arsenal just have this stat that is super important to launchers. 

[DeadlyPeanutt]

10 hours ago, Magneu said:

Red herring from my arguments.

I don't care too much about the impact on my game, although seeing one or two in every sortie squad is a bit grating.

What I care about is the standard it sets for future weapons. Power creep is not good for any game in the long-term.....

I enjoy a nice grilled red herring, btw... on a bed of rice pilaf, steamed veggies and some fresh fruit salad on the side. YUM!

It's apparent that your POV and my POV differ dramatically:

You feel that tonkor is a symptom of rampant power creep, insidiously infecting WF like a cancer.  And it's your duty to diagnose this cancer on WF and to cut the cancer out like a skilled surgeon. 

I feel that tonkor is FUN, and so do MANY other players.  We play WF to have FUN and tonkor is FUN.  It's fun to use, fun to blow up mobs of bots.  Tonkor is a little quirky, difficult to aim, small magazine, frustrating at times, but in the end, it's still FUN.

Perhaps you should find another game to practice game medicine on... We'd like our game to remain fun. 

Would you like some nice grilled red herring?

 

Edited April 20, 2016 by DeadlyPeanutt

[DeadlyPeanutt]

6 hours ago, TheBrsrkr said:

We've been over this before. Both you and I have been over this before. Why bother with a direct repost? It makes no sense. 

Why bother responding to my post when you know that I'll simply defend the right of the MANY players who enjoy tonkor to keep enjoying it?

 

[TheBrsrkr]

10 minutes ago, DeadlyPeanutt said:

Why bother responding to my post when you know that I'll simply defend the right of the MANY players who enjoy tonkor to keep enjoying it?

 

I don't particularly care about what you think it is you're doing. In reality the amount of fun your having has no effect on game balance.This is a discussion about whether a weapon is balanced or not. Liking it or not is completely irrelevant.

[MirageKnight]

26 minutes ago, DeadlyPeanutt said:

I enjoy a nice grilled red herring, btw... on a bed of rice pilaf, steamed veggies and some fresh fruit salad on the side. YUM!

It's apparent that your POV and my POV differ dramatically:

You feel that tonkor is a symptom of rampant power creep, insidiously infecting WF like a cancer.  And it's your duty to diagnose this cancer on WF and to cut the cancer out like a skilled surgeon. 

I feel that tonkor is FUN, and so do MANY other players.  We play WF to have FUN and tonkor is FUN.  It's fun to use, fun to blow up mobs of bots.  Tonkor is a little quirky, difficult to aim, small magazine, frustrating at times, but in the end, it's still FUN.

Perhaps you should find another game to practice game medicine on... We'd like our game to remain fun. 

Would you like some nice grilled red herring?

 

Let's see...an appeal to the masses...an ad hominem...appeal to emotion...a strawman...That's at least 4 logical fallacies you're using to defend your point that Tonkor should be left untouched.

Your argument is flawed and weak.

If an argument contains logical fallacies, the argument is weak. Your argument contains several logical fallacies which I identified, therefore your argument is weak.

[cx-dave]

9 hours ago, TheBrsrkr said:

 

Possibly because you're being dishonest? Just a thought? 

 

More weenie wagging. Why are we pretending that hours played means that what you say is more valid than what anyone else says? Whether I joined the game yesterday or I've been playing since Closed beta, it wouldn't change that the Tonkor is OP.

How about you stop misrepresenting quotes and my position on the matter. The hours have nothing to do with my account.

Since you didn't specify what you think is dishonest, I'm guessing you're referring to some kind of math that claims 2 hours isn't possible solo? Just for your information there are players that have gone twice as long.

[TheBrsrkr]

20 minutes ago, cx-dave said:

How about you stop misrepresenting quotes and my position on the matter. The hours have nothing to do with my account.

They have nothing to do with the topic we are discussing either, which is why I wonder how it's relevant, and why you brought it up. 

 

21 minutes ago, cx-dave said:

Since you didn't specify what you think is dishonest, I'm guessing you're referring to some kind of math that claims 2 hours isn't possible solo? 

No one in this thread has suggested anything of the sort. What's dishonest is thinking that all of the tests the others have done that the Tonkor is well above the power curve is irrelevant because the firing mechanic is different. 

[shyguyk]

5 hours ago, DeadlyPeanutt said:

I enjoy a nice grilled red herring, btw... on a bed of rice pilaf, steamed veggies and some fresh fruit salad on the side. YUM!

It's apparent that your POV and my POV differ dramatically:

You feel that tonkor is a symptom of rampant power creep, insidiously infecting WF like a cancer.  And it's your duty to diagnose this cancer on WF and to cut the cancer out like a skilled surgeon. 

I feel that tonkor is FUN, and so do MANY other players.  We play WF to have FUN and tonkor is FUN.  It's fun to use, fun to blow up mobs of bots.  Tonkor is a little quirky, difficult to aim, small magazine, frustrating at times, but in the end, it's still FUN.

Perhaps you should find another game to practice game medicine on... We'd like our game to remain fun. 

Would you like some nice grilled red herring?

 

Why are we bringing up fun. Fun has nothing to do with balance. The tonkor doesnt need wreck high level things to be fun. The playstyle supplies the fun, not the power.

The target shouldn't matter to you. as long as the grenade goes boom, that's fun, right? That's why so many unique weapons still get used. They aren't powerful, but FUN to use.

If the tonkor got nerfed, and people stopped using it in say, t3 missions, they probably weren't using it for the fun factor anyway.

The way it is now, the tonkor stops other people from having fun by erasing everything there is to play against (barring nullifiers). If we're advocating fun, shouldn't the non tonkor users be able to have fun? (by the way, increasing spawns isn't the solution to this). Or is it not fun enough to have teammates working together with other weapons?

We could prepare non tonkor squads, but what kind of fix is that? People shouldn't be forced out of public games for wanting to play the game and have fun

 

Guy below me isn't wrong, you need some power to have fun, but the fun should come primarily from the playstyle, not by being objectively better than other weapons by such a large margin

Edited April 20, 2016 by shyguyk
Didn't think somebody'd nitpick this. I was wrong.

[CapedBaldy]

I'd like to see people having fun with MK-1 Bratons unmodded in sorties.

There needs to be some degree of power for fun.

[TheBrsrkr]

1 hour ago, CapedBaldy said:

I'd like to see people having fun with MK-1 Bratons unmodded in sorties.

There needs to be some degree of power for fun.

I'd love to see you outline how you got from  "the Tonkor has too much power" to "everything in the game has to be on par with an unmodded starter weapon". Mental gymnastics is an interesting sport. 

[CapedBaldy]

1 hour ago, TheBrsrkr said:

I'd love to see you outline how you got from  "the Tonkor has too much power" to "everything in the game has to be on par with an unmodded starter weapon". Mental gymnastics is an interesting sport. 

I was trying to say power supplies part of the fun.

I guess hyperbole is a bit too much of a mental gymnastics, eh?

[DeadlyPeanutt]

9 hours ago, MirageKnight said:

If an argument contains logical fallacies, the argument is weak. Your argument contains several logical fallacies which I identified, therefore your argument is weak.

I'm not in a debating society with you, therefore I'm not debating you.  

Perhaps you weren't listening: I play computer games for FUN, as do the HUGE number of players who enjoy tonkor.  Players who enjoy tonkor want to continue to have fun with this weapon that they like.  There's certainly no logic in that, is there?

We don't play computer games to debate statistics and argue logical fallacies . 

BTW, A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds, as RW Emerson pointed out. Sound familiar?

[DeadlyPeanutt]

5 hours ago, shyguyk said:

Why are we bringing up fun. Fun has nothing to do with balance. The tonkor doesnt need wreck high level things to be fun. The playstyle supplies the fun, not the power.

We could prepare non tonkor squads, but what kind of fix is that? People shouldn't be forced out of public games for wanting to play the game and have fun

Why bring up fun?  

FUN is the motivating factor in playing computer games.

FUN is the most relevant goal of any computer game. 

Tonkor is FUN for many many players, considering how many players use tonkor and how many 'best weapons' lists that tonkor appears on.  tonkor is fun because, although it is quirky and has it's downsides, it works well.  weapons that work well make happy players :)

A very few players, like yourself and your friends in this thread hate tonkor because it works well... the same people tend to hate SS and sonicor for the same reasons. such players tend to think that weapons that work too well are BAD. either that or you and your friends simply like telling other players what to do.

Do you have to use tonkor? no

Do you have to play on squads in which anyone uses tonkor? no 

Can you play public matches in squads that don't allow tonkor? yes (simply add 'no tonkors, please' to your recruiting chat)

Is tonkor being used to blow you up in a PvP match? no (not outside of conclave, and I think you're arguing to nerf the PvE version of the weapon)

to sum up, you and your friends can have fun (with no tonkors) by simply taking a few simple steps.  Myself and my HUGE number of friends can ALSO have fun by playing tonkor without any changes.   Everyone can have fun!!

there, problem solved!

 

[shyguyk]

By all means, if you can get DE to create a checkbox so people can pub without one specific weapon, enjoy your tonkor as is.

But do you think that's going to happen?

Explain your reasons why you and your "HUGE number of friends" love the tonkor, how its fun, and its superiority to other explosives is justified. All i see you saying is that it's fun. If you can't present more than one point, what the hell is your argument worth?

If there were a votekick system for squads, would you support it? Probably not. Why? you'd be on the receiving end often. Then you'd have to go out of your way and create your own squads for missions. Well, the people you see in this thread are on the opposing end of the tonkor's enemy erasing potential. I'd bet people using the tonkor would get pretty upset, and that we would have another thread like this, just the opposite.

Do YOU have fun when others use the tonkor in excess while you have another primary? I don't know if you use any other weapons though, your posts make me believe you use it 9/10 times and never have to see the other side of the argument. 

http://www.strawpoll.me/10005713

I'm going to put a poll up to see which side (that reads the forum anyway) is in the majority, Fun using tonkor, or Fun reduced by the tonkor. This will tell us if your amount of friends is as huge as you say.

Spoiler

iirc strawpolls are prone to invalidity by multiple votes, oh well, would be a shame if someone took the time to do that.

 

Edited April 21, 2016 by shyguyk
Link fix

[cx-dave]

8 hours ago, shyguyk said:

The way it is now, the tonkor stops other people from having fun by erasing everything there is to play against (barring nullifiers). If we're advocating fun, shouldn't the non tonkor users be able to have fun? (by the way, increasing spawns isn't the solution to this). Or is it not fun enough to have teammates working together with other weapons?

I understand your point. I really do. However, there are so many other ways to erase everything. Some are far quicker depending on the mission type. For instance, Ember in an Invasion, most Exterminates, most Defenses, and most Mobile Defense alerts (they tend to be low level). Go into a Survival with Excal, Valkyr, Saryn Spores, etc. alert and you wipe the field clean, before you can see the enemies with a Tonkor. 

When you nerf the Tonkor for that reason, you'll just start picking on the next weapon or method that will ruin your fun. In the end when there is nothing left to picki on, people will start advocating that high ranked player shouldn't be aloud into a low level mission with beginners, because they kill everything before they can....we could fix that with matchmaking actually...but then beginners will start complaining they can't participate in high level content, because a bunch or MR4-6 players don't have the fire power to clear whatever Sortie.

Trying to peace meal balance is a slippery slope. It can potentially break everything as high level enemies are currently balanced around high level weapons as well. In my opinion carefully thought out system wide changes are the only way forward.

(Sure, if DE detects gross abuse like with Mesa, go ahead and do something about it. I'm not seeing it to be honest. Then again I don't have access to their numbers either.)

[Magneu]

@shyguyk, the problem is, people who defend the Tonkor will simply vote that there is fun no matter what to skew results. @DeadlyPeanutt has already demonstrated that their only argument is that "it's fun", completely ignoring the power curve, rampant power creep, objective superiority to every other weapon in the game, and the complete lack of downsides, relative to other weapons, that it has to compensate.

My arguments mainly comprise how the Tonkor is bad for the health of the game in the long term, for reasons I've laid out multiple times, with a legitimate  source backing up my argument. The opposition has...displayed emotionally driven appeals to the masses with nothing to back them up besides "it's fun", completely ignoring long-term consequences.

Also, @DeadlyPeanutt, it's irrelevant that this isn't a debating society; it's (a) a forum for open debate, and (b) you're still constrained by having to produce a logical, truthful argument, or else it's null and void.

Also, telling people who believe the Tonkor is unbalanced that they need to use private matchmaking to avoid it is more indicative of the Tonkor being the broken factor, as well as being a extremely unfair to those people. If the Tonkor is so prevalent in missions (I see between 3 and 7 every group of sorties) that people need to actively avoid it (our community is known for choosing the most effective strategy, in any case), that's another case  against it.

11 minutes ago, cx-dave said:

I understand your point. I really do. However, there are so many other ways to erase everything. Some are far quicker depending on the mission type. For instance, Ember in an Invasion, most Exterminates, most Defenses, and most Mobile Defense alerts (they tend to be low level). Go into a Survival with Excal, Valkyr, Saryn Spores, etc. alert and you wipe the field clean, before you can see the enemies with a Tonkor. 

While Exalted Blade (Waves) and Hysteria godmode are other subjects that need a looking at, we're concerned with Tonkor performance vs other weapons. Powers need not apply.

14 minutes ago, cx-dave said:

When you nerf the Tonkor for that reason, you'll just start picking on the next weapon or method that will ruin your fun. In the end when there is nothing left to picki on, people will start advocating that high ranked player shouldn't be aloud into a low level mission with beginners, because they kill everything before they can....we could fix that with matchmaking actually...but then beginners will start complaining they can't participate in high level content, because a bunch or MR4-6 players don't have the fire power to clear whatever Sortie.

That's blown out of proportion. While I think the Synoid Simulor and Sonicor are rather brain-dead weapons due to their mechanics and damage (along with interactions with frames like Mirage), the Tonkor is still objectively the highest single target burst/sustained DPS weapon in the game by a massive margin, with AOE, and non/reduced downsides compared to the rest of explosive weapons in game. I think the rest of the weapons in game are either balanced or under-powered; the Tonkor is too far above the power curve to be good for game health.

[LunarEdge7]

3 hours ago, DeadlyPeanutt said:

Why bring up fun?  

FUN is the motivating factor in playing computer games.

FUN is the most relevant goal of any computer game. 

Tonkor is FUN for many many players, considering how many players use tonkor and how many 'best weapons' lists that tonkor appears on.  tonkor is fun because, although it is quirky and has it's downsides, it works well.  weapons that work well make happy players :)

A very few players, like yourself and your friends in this thread hate tonkor because it works well... the same people tend to hate SS and sonicor for the same reasons. such players tend to think that weapons that work too well are BAD. either that or you and your friends simply like telling other players what to do.

Do you have to use tonkor? no

Do you have to play on squads in which anyone uses tonkor? no 

Can you play public matches in squads that don't allow tonkor? yes (simply add 'no tonkors, please' to your recruiting chat)

Is tonkor being used to blow you up in a PvP match? no (not outside of conclave, and I think you're arguing to nerf the PvE version of the weapon)

to sum up, you and your friends can have fun (with no tonkors) by simply taking a few simple steps.  Myself and my HUGE number of friends can ALSO have fun by playing tonkor without any changes.   Everyone can have fun!!

there, problem solved!

 

One problem with that is, the other players don't even like to see me using Akbronco Prime when I use it for fun. They just want damage, damage, damage. My idea of fun is not seeing a full squad of 2 Simulor and Kulstar, and 2 Tonkor and Sonicor players all using those weapons for a whole darn day. Or Sancti Tiger/Vaykor-Oneshot for that matter.

Oh and Fang Prime.

Edited April 21, 2016 by LunarEdge7

[LunarEdge7]

3 hours ago, DeadlyPeanutt said:

Why bring up fun?  

FUN is the motivating factor in playing computer games.

FUN is the most relevant goal of any computer game. 

Tonkor is FUN for many many players, considering how many players use tonkor and how many 'best weapons' lists that tonkor appears on.  tonkor is fun because, although it is quirky and has it's downsides, it works well.  weapons that work well make happy players :)

A very few players, like yourself and your friends in this thread hate tonkor because it works well... the same people tend to hate SS and sonicor for the same reasons. such players tend to think that weapons that work too well are BAD. either that or you and your friends simply like telling other players what to do.

Do you have to use tonkor? no

Do you have to play on squads in which anyone uses tonkor? no 

Can you play public matches in squads that don't allow tonkor? yes (simply add 'no tonkors, please' to your recruiting chat)

Is tonkor being used to blow you up in a PvP match? no (not outside of conclave, and I think you're arguing to nerf the PvE version of the weapon)

to sum up, you and your friends can have fun (with no tonkors) by simply taking a few simple steps.  Myself and my HUGE number of friends can ALSO have fun by playing tonkor without any changes.   Everyone can have fun!!

there, problem solved!

 

One problem with that is, the other players don't even agree to me using Akbronco Prime when I use it for fun. They just want damage, damage, damage.

Oh and Fang Prime.

[Magneu]

Just got back from Sortie 1 today...MR 5 and MR9, both with Tonkors/Sonicors. The MR5 had just over a day of playtime, and already had the most powerful gun in the game. Guess we'll never see them using anything ever again.

They also constantly went down, as attempting to face-tank Elite Crewmen as Excalibur is a rather bad idea. Good to see they're learning how to do something besides spam DPS.

[DarkRuler2500]

Just adding self-damage to tonkor is good enough to balance it.

[SpinnningSideKick]

If this weapon is soooooo popular and game breaking, and everyone is using it. How did I get to MR 8 and only see like 3-4 of these in pubs?

[TheBrsrkr]

7 hours ago, CapedBaldy said:

I was trying to say power supplies part of the fun.

You could have said such an obvious thing without ridiculous hyperbole. 

 

4 hours ago, DeadlyPeanutt said:

Why bring up fun?  

FUN is the motivating factor in playing computer games.

FUN is the most relevant goal of any computer game. 

It also has nothing to do with game balance, which is what we are discussing right now. Also, revenue is the most important factor of a computer game. 

 

4 hours ago, DeadlyPeanutt said:

Tonkor is FUN for many many players, considering how many players use tonkor and how many 'best weapons' lists that tonkor appears on.  tonkor is fun because, although it is quirky and has it's downsides, it works well.  weapons that work well make happy players 

Good for you. Good for them.  Now tell me exactly why that's relevant. In this discussion. About whether the Tonkor is balanced or not. Protip :it really isn't. 

 

4 hours ago, DeadlyPeanutt said:

 very few players, like yourself and your friends in this thread hate tonkor because it works well... the same people tend to hate SS and sonicor for the same reasons. 

Can we please stop with these stupid excuses. Nobody says "nerf it because I hate it". Nobody. Liking a weapon or hating a weapon makes absolutely no difference to the weapon's stats. I'd you like the Tonkor, is there a magic 75% damage boost you get from liking it. Is there a 50% penalty you get from hating it? No? Then it's completely irrelevant. In no way. How many times do I have to say it before you understand?

 

5 hours ago, DeadlyPeanutt said:

. such players tend to think that weapons that work too well are BAD. either that or you and your friends simply like telling other players what to do.

Am I your boogeyman? Boo!

Weapons that work too well are bad for the game.  The revenue and progression system is based around players building and using multiple weapons, of which there are hundreds. If one of those weapons is objectively better than all the others (or worse, but we're talking Tonkor) there will be little incentive to use anything else, because you have the best weapon. In that case, your "fun" with the best weapon in the game comes at the expense of every other weapon in the game. This is why fun isn't a balancing factor. 

5 hours ago, DeadlyPeanutt said:

Do you have to use tonkor? no

Do you have to play on squads in which anyone uses tonkor? no 

Can you play public matches in squads that don't allow tonkor? yes (simply add 'no tonkors, please' to your recruiting chat)

Is tonkor being used to blow you up in a PvP match? no (not outside of conclave, and I think you're arguing to nerf the PvE version of the weapon)

Does not playing with the Tonkor magically remove the effect it has on the game? No. "Don't like it don't use it" is a ridiculous prospect in a multiplayer game. 

Should I be forced to play around the people who have a Tonkor? No. Again, this is a game for everybody. No one should have to manually screen through players to actually play the game. 

Is game balance a requirement in games? Yes. Just because it isn't PvP doesn't mean that you're not affecting the experiences of other players. If you think that, you really need to go learn more about game balance as a whole. 

5 hours ago, DeadlyPeanutt said:

to sum up, you and your friends can have fun (with no tonkors) by simply taking a few simple steps.  Myself and my HUGE number of friends can ALSO have fun by playing tonkor without any changes.   Everyone can have fun!!

Everyone can have fun, except non-Tonkor players have to play separately from Tonkor players, public games have to either be completely avoided or involve a lot of joining and quitting, and everyone has to play around the game breaking instrument instead of fixing it. I'll say it one more time, because I don't think you get it, the amount of fun you're having with a broken weapon doesn't change the fact that it's a broken weapon. 

[cx-dave]

4 hours ago, Magneu said:

While Exalted Blade (Waves) and Hysteria godmode are other subjects that need a looking at, we're concerned with Tonkor performance vs other weapons. Powers need not apply.

It does apply because re-balancing a powerful weapon touches everything. Players that typically use the same thing over and over, because it's easy, will then flock to the next thing in line. Whether that's a weapon or a power will matter little to them.

4 hours ago, Magneu said:

(I see between 3 and 7 every group of sorties)

Could also be that said player thinks this is going to be really tough. I better pack my strongest weapons.