There are only 6 major roles for frames in the game and Trinity dominates almost half of them

[Fifield]

This leaves the other 29 frames to compete over the remaining roles.  No wonder ~19 warframes are largely unused.

The major roles in rough order of importance:

1. Crowd control
2. Energy provider
3. Defence
4. Undetectability
5. AOE damage
6. Healer
   
   --> Trinity-dominated roles in bold.  She's also one of the best at defence.  AOE damage is low on the list because of weapons like Tonkor and Sonicor.
    
7. Single target damage
8. Damage buffing 
9. Farming
10. Speed boost
    
    --> Minor roles.  Guns do already hit incredibly more damage for #7 and #8.  #9 is a barely legitimate role.

[important note, #numbers were changed after a page and a half of replies for readability.  Sorry to everyone who replied beforehand]

So how do we split 8-10 roles among 30 warframes?  The key to an interesting variety of warframes is to split a role so that one frame is good at half (or less) of it, whilst another frame is good at the other half. eg re #3 Blessing provides semi permanent incoming damage negation whilst moving.   Snowglobe provides full immunity AOE (bar hook) whilst static.

Note also:
#2: Energy Vampire is an order of magnitude more powerful than anything else in the game.  Oh and it provides overshields as well.
#6: Blessing provides instant full health + shields.  The only way it could be stronger is providing damage reduction (for which it provides 99%) or providing shields beyond normal capacity (which an EV augment does).

This post isn't just about how ridiculously OP and other-frame-obsoleting Trinity is.  

It also shows where to start when designing warframes.

Already refuted counterarguments because some don't reads threads

 "But this frame has X Y Z skills"
Yes but none of those skills are better than the next best for that role.

"Nerfing is bad"
Nerfing 9 skills is easier than buffing the other 111.  Since the game is too easy, it's the sensible thing to do anyway.

"You're attacking Trinity"
Trinity is a machine, merely designated female so stop being emotionally attached.  Also, "she" is unique in dominating multiple major roles.  But to make you feel better, here's a list of the other OP abilities:
Exalted Blade
Snowglobe
Invisibility
Prism
Molecular Prime.
Bastille
Vortex

Edited March 20, 2016 by Fifield
Added refutations because endless bad counterarguments are just noise

[R34LM]

Not sure if this is a topic about what is currently the meta or how ridiculously meta Trinity is.

In any case, Trinity is a support frame, so she's really only doing her job. As for splitting up the roles, the issue is that most frames are "one trick ponies" in that regard. They do just the one thing while the other supposed uses are either ineffective or better done with a frame that has that use as well as others. Take Oberon: he has some pretty descent healing potential, but that is all he can bring for the team at high level, while Trinity brings a more effective heal as well as more things. Limbo: pretty effective defense globe and banish for defense targets, but he breaks the flow with his other abilities while Frost is usually the king of defense. The list can go on.

As a tip for designing Warframes, I'm not sure if it is the best idea to design around meta roles, because 1. the meta changes with reward tables and xp gain and 2. it leans towards power creep in most cases.

[Fifield]

25 minutes ago, R34LM said:

Not sure if this is a topic about what is currently the meta or how ridiculously meta Trinity is.

The post you replied to might help: ;)

1 hour ago, Fifield said:

This post isn't just about how ridiculously OP and other-frame-obsoleting Trinity is.  

It also shows where to start when designing warframes.

 

25 minutes ago, R34LM said:

In any case, Trinity is a support frame, so she's really only doing her job.

You're basically saying don't blame Trinity here.  But Trinity is one of 30 robots/gameplay themes that you're anthropomorphising.  By having her theme dominate, it makes the game far less interesting than it could be.

25 minutes ago, R34LM said:

As for splitting up the roles, the issue is that most frames are "one trick ponies" in that regard. They do just the one thing while the other supposed uses are either ineffective or better done with a frame that has that use as well as others.

That's not the issue.  The issue is that some abilities are so overpowered that they dominate the whole role.  Trinity has 2 that dominate 3 roles.

25 minutes ago, R34LM said:

Take Oberon: he has some pretty descent healing potential, but that is all he can bring for the team at high level, while Trinity brings a more effective heal as well as more things. Limbo: pretty effective defense globe and banish for defense targets, but he breaks the flow with his other abilities while Frost is usually the king of defense.

Yes Oberon doesn't get a look in because Blessing and Trinity are extremely OP.  Limbo doesn't get much of a look in because Snowglobe and Frost are OP and dominate the AOE immunity niche.

You're basically making my point for me.

25 minutes ago, R34LM said:

As a tip for designing Warframes, I'm not sure if it is the best idea to design around meta roles, because 1. the meta changes with reward tables and xp gain and 2. it leans towards power creep in most cases.

Au contraire.  The meta never changes.  All these roles are standard in all RPGs, Action RPGs, turn-based games etc.

It also reduces power creep.  You can see that there's a very definite need to nerf OP skills in order to give players a variety of viable warframes to use.  There is almost no point introducing new warframes until there are niches for them to occupy.

Edited March 20, 2016 by Fifield

[R34LM]

37 minutes ago, Fifield said:

You can see that there's a very definite need to nerf OP skills in order to give players a variety of viable warframes to use.

How about instead of nerfing supposedly OP abilities we buff the lack luster ones that really need work. It would still serve to accomplish this goal.

Besides, the ones you seem to have an issue with are Trinity's.

Edited March 20, 2016 by R34LM

[Manyc]

Keep it simple and you might see things in another way.

There's only 3 roles: Offensive, Defensive, Support.

For example, yes, Trinity and Loki are considered God frames because they excel in Support / Defensive roles in an unique way.

In a way, Loki would be better, unless the players you're supporting aren't moving at all. Because you're disarming them permanently. As long as you're on the move, no need to heal nor buff damage reduction. But on the other side they have no Offensive capabilities.

I do agree there's plenty of unbalance and just because those excel at those parts doesn't mean the others are bad, only in comparison, it also matters how others work with you. You don't need EV all the time, if you're spamming too much maybe you're lacking somewhere else. Even more when you can make teams with 4 Energy Syphons + Zenurik Focus. You get plenty of energy income, Trinity isn't that needed.

Another example, Excalibur is one of the most balanced and can support / defend well enough to keep any team alive. Blind the enemies (which also buffs allies' damage indirectly) has good self defense while on Exalted Blade while being able to block even while attacking.

You have to look for the strong points on all frames and figure a way to synergise without using a God tier frame. You'll see many good points in them all. You're just being blinded by a strong light. Turn off the big one, you'll see a lot of new things. 

[akira_him]

2 minutes ago, Manyc said:

Keep it simple and you might see things in another way.

There's only 3 roles: Offensive, Defensive, Support.

qftt

[Manyc]

2 minutes ago, akira_him said:

qftt

Sorry, what?

[akira_him]

Just now, Manyc said:

Sorry, what?

quoted for the truth

[rawr1254]

1. Single target damage(Rests finisher opener)
2. AOE damage(Maim)
3. Crow Control(Maim/Pacify Augment)
4. Energy Provider
5. Healer(Mend)
6. Immunity(Pacify)
7. Damage buffer(Provoke/Rage)
8. Undetectability(Rest)
9. Farming
10. Speed Boost(Metamorphosis[Day])

--> Equinox's roles in bold.
 

Call the nerf band wagon

[Fifield]

1 hour ago, R34LM said:

How about instead of nerfing supposedly OP abilities we buff the lack luster ones that really need work. It would still serve to accomplish this goal.

It wouldn't.  You can't make Oberon's heal any better than Trinity's.  A better energy provider than EV would be ridiculous.

Secondly, the game is far too easy.  Nerfing OP abilities is the best way to start making it challenging and fun.

1 hour ago, R34LM said:

Besides, the ones you seem to have an issue with are Trinity's.

Not at all.

All these are OP:
Exalted Blade
Snowglobe
Invisibility
Prism
Molecular Prime.
Bastille
Vortex

And what do all these abilities depend on?  Energy, for which Energy Vampire is an order of magnitude better than any other source.

Edited March 20, 2016 by Fifield

[R34LM]

1 hour ago, Fifield said:

 

7 minutes ago, Fifield said:

Secondly, the game is far too easy.  Nerfing OP abilities is the best way to start making it challenging and fun.

 

I'd advise you not to throw around "challenging and fun" as if it was a widely accepted term. People have their own ideas of what is a challenge and what is fun. Trust me, people will get angry if Trinity is nerfed again. Also, yes it is easy, but it is therefore more annoying if we allow the enemy to win us over because of the enemy's dumb luck and cheap tactics because we didn't use said abilities.

As for the abilities you mentioned, I am surprised you didn't note them in your first post.

Edited March 20, 2016 by R34LM

[YasaiTsume]

It would only be a big problem if Trinity fulfilled 5 roles in that list.

That 3 /10 isn't a big deal because it is her job to do those roles. 

[Fifield]

23 minutes ago, Manyc said:

Keep it simple and you might see things in another way.

There's only 3 roles: Offensive, Defensive, Support. 

No, there's 8 because I said so.  See what I did there?

There are many ways of cutting a cake.  If this goes over your head, don't bother responding.

1 hour ago, Manyc said:

I do agree there's plenty of unbalance and just because those excel at those parts doesn't mean the others are bad, only in comparison 

But 'comparison' is all that matters in balance.  You could say that the Karak is a great gun because you can do any content with it.  It only looks weak in comparison to Soma Prime et al.

How many players use the Karak?  0.2%?

1 hour ago, Manyc said:

Another example, Excalibur is one of the most balanced and can support / defend well enough to keep any team alive.

No, Excalibur is OP.  Balanced doesn't mean their abilities are equally strong.  Balanced means equally viable.

[Fifield]

1 hour ago, R34LM said:

Trust me, people will get angry if Trinity is nerfed again.

Hope so.  That will be entertaining.

I presume this is what all the weak replies are masking for.  Why people even care about Trinity is beyond me.  Ugly frame, boring to play and ruining the gameplay in Warframe.

1 hour ago, R34LM said:

it is therefore more annoying if we allow the enemy to win us over because of the enemy's dumb luck and cheap tactics because we didn't use said abilities.

I'd actually nerf enemy damage along with buffing the grunts EHP so that a few fights need to be a little more strategic and not just running through, swatting flies.

Secondly, you get 4 lives per mission and free revives if any of your teammates pick you up.

1 hour ago, R34LM said:

As for the abilities you mentioned, I am surprised you didn't note them in your first post.

Have taken your advice in case DE take any of these weak counterarguments seriously.

Edited March 20, 2016 by Fifield

[Fifield]

1 hour ago, rawr1254 said:

1. Single target damage(Rests finisher opener)
2. AOE damage(Maim)
3. Crow Control(Maim/Pacify Augment)
4. Energy Provider
5. Healer(Mend)
6. Immunity(Pacify)
7. Damage buffer(Provoke/Rage)
8. Undetectability(Rest)
9. Farming
10. Speed Boost(Metamorphosis[Day])

--> Equinox's roles in bold.

And is weak in all of them bar possibly Maim.  So again you make my point for me.

Another point is that DE has been making more flexible warframes.  I think this is a good trend and when the OP skills are nerfed, we'll have 3x as many viable warframes to play with!

Edited March 20, 2016 by Fifield

[Misgenesis]

Im for a Trinity rework, she needs it. But it cant be done without a massive backlash (because people ignore balance) so before we do that, we need damage 3.0 and a look at scaling.

[Gurpgork]

2 hours ago, R34LM said:

How about instead of nerfing supposedly OP abilities we buff the lack luster ones that really need work. It would still serve to accomplish this goal.

To a certain extent, I agree. However, one of those abilities can single-handedly break the energy economy in half and pretty much instantly overpower nearly every other Warframe in the game, and the other ability can make an entire team extremely difficult to kill pretty much regardless of which frames they picked. It's okay for Trinity to be the best medic, because that's all she does. What's not okay is for Trinity to be so many orders of magnitude ahead of all the other medics that none of the others are even worth considering. And there are outliers on both ends. Most of the other medics are too weak, but Trinity is also far too strong.

[Hellmaker2004]

Although i agree that Trinity is strong and EV definitely need a nerf in some way i can't really say that Trinity is the only frame that does three things and dominating them either.

 

Nova could easily fit with 2,3,7 and 10.

Saryn could fit into 1, 2, and 7 

and we could keep listing a lot of frames that have three or more of the things mentioned above now i will never argue why Trinity's fourth on the list is ok, she is easily holding that post even on a duration build it is really easy to give allies energy. But the problem is not directly Trinity when it comes to the number 5 on the list.

 

The problem all other healers have are that they are very annoying to play both from e mechanical stand point and a response view.

Inaros require mobs to be alive with a debuff on them and for allies to be close.

Nezha's healing from Blazing Chakram have the same issue, it requires a target and then you have to throw the ability hit foes then finish them of within a short period of time and the healing return is so small.

Oberon is slightly harder to compare but his ultimate only spawn health orbs if foes die to his ulti and his aura costs a lot due to the fact it offers a health per second and a extended bleed out timer.

Equinox requires her to attack foes, although easier than most of the other compared to Trinity that only need to press one button it is still a lot of buildup in a game where seconds matter once you actually need a healer.

 

Another problem these frames have compared to Trinity is that Trinity can do Healing, energy gain and more healing and offer survivability for herself and her allies. While everyone else on this list have a lot of more tools that they are maybe not dominating in, but they can still offer some support in that field. Equinox may not be able to offer the same panic healing or the same resistance to allies or energy. But she can crowd control and deal massive amount of damage.

Likewise Oberon may not be the most favored frame, and his healing is worse than Trinity, he can Crowd control a large amount of foes in exchange for being weaker in the healing area.

 

I would have to say that although Trinity's Energy Vampire may be way ahead of all other energy gaining tools in the game i find it obvious why she has stronger heal than all other healers, if you would make them on par with Trinity either by lowering her or by increasing there what would she be able to do instead?

Trinity is not the primary reason other healers are not sought after in a healing perspective. The damage our opponents are capable of doing and the low response time we get is the main culprit here.

[R34LM]

1 hour ago, Fifield said:

Hope so.  That will be entertaining.

I presume this is what all the weak replies are masking for.  Why people even care about Trinity is beyond me.  Ugly frame, boring to play and ruining the gameplay in Warframe.

Sure, insult the players who like Trinity and be glad that people who do enjoy playing as her would be angry. Just goes to show you are biased against her and, therefore, is a loss of credibility.

 

1 hour ago, Fifield said:

Have taken your advice in case DE take any of these weak counterarguments seriously.

And even go as far to insult counterarguments, calling them weak.

Also

1 hour ago, Fifield said:

I'd actually nerf enemy damage along with buffing the grunts EHP so that a few fights need to be a little more strategic and not just running through, swatting flies.

 

Because fighting against bullet sponges is any more strategic.

 

 I'm just going to abstain because this will get nowhere.

[Fifield]

Ways to minimise the Trinity nerf backlash.

1. Announce it 2 months in advance.
2. Explain that people are leaving the game because it's too easy and there's too much ability spam.
3. Remake her to be interesting to play eg think Trinity from Matrix.  Her first ability needs remaking anyway.
4. Design a lot of funny memepics eg juggernaut, bursas et al flanking Steve and the gang, entitled "We're ready for the Trinity nerf backlash"

Edited March 20, 2016 by Fifield

[Fifield]

<#faileditor>

Edited March 20, 2016 by Fifield

[Aquasurge]

you forgot debuff (saryn)

[Fifield]

6 minutes ago, R34LM said:

Sure, insult the players who like Trinity and be glad that people who do enjoy playing as her would be angry. Just goes to show you are biased against her

I'm biased against people who are damaging the game by blocking clearly necessary nerfs.  Very much biased against them.

9 minutes ago, R34LM said:

And even go as far to insult counterarguments, calling them weak.

They are.  The only half decent one was yours about the game becoming annoying because of 1-shotting (I assume that's what it was).

11 minutes ago, R34LM said:

Because fighting against bullet sponges is any more strategic.

Needing 3 bullets instead of 1 to kill an enemy does not make them a bullet sponge LOL

[Fifield]

4 minutes ago, Aquasurge said:

you forgot debuff (saryn)

Good point.  Also Banshee.

[AdunSaveMe]

Since when is 'immunity' a role?