There are only 6 major roles for frames in the game and Trinity dominates almost half of them

[(PSN)horridhal]

8 minutes ago, Fifield said:

Zenurik doesn't make EV less powerful.  Your criterion makes no sense.  Since most players consider P4TW to be damaging to the game, EV is OP.

Zenurik makes EV less useful.  If a frame can provide its own energy without the need for EV your point becomes null.  Not that I ever agreed that EV was overpowered since it is completely dependent on other frames being present and power spam can easily be accomplished with or without an EV Trinity.

Edited March 23, 2016 by (PS4)horridhal
Addition.

[Fifield]

Just now, (PS4)horridhal said:

Zenurik makes EV less useful.

But doesn't make it less powerful.  So if it was OP before Zenurik, it's OP now.

Basic logic.

[(PSN)horridhal]

Just now, Fifield said:

But doesn't make it less powerful.  So if it was OP before Zenurik, it's OP now.

Basic logic.

If it becomes less useful, and other abilities are comparable to it, it isn't really overpowered.

It is also not overpowered since you can easily spam powers with or without an EV Trinity.  Basic logic.  IJS.

[Fifield]

6 minutes ago, (PS4)horridhal said:

If it becomes less useful, and other abilities are comparable to it, it isn't really overpowered.

Naked assertion

7 minutes ago, (PS4)horridhal said:

It is also not overpowered since you can easily spam powers with or without an EV Trinity.  Basic logic.  IJS.

Untrue and terrible logic.

You also unsurprisingly didn't counter the logical assertion of mine that you quoted.

[Ada_Wong_SG]

Trinity is just making Energy, HP and Shield restoring free-of-charge... which makes 
the overall play for the team a lot easier.

Instead of spending credits and resources crafting restores all you need to do is sacrificing a slot for any attacker role 
for a "dedicated operated HP, Energy, Shield Restore" which automatically replenishes anything the team lack
for the whole duration of the mission.

Any team without Trinity can operate just as well, but burning restores in extended missions 
might actually consume more resources than the mission actually earns.

Zenurik is basically a free restore with cooldown.

I recommend Trinity to a lot of new players, because she is relatively cheaper to use in the long run
compared to other frames, the only restore you would need is ammo restore for trigger happy players.

It makes farming highly efficient, though usually longer because her ability alone are not sufficient to
dominate the killing if there is no other frame around.

In short Trinity alone is not OP, you try put 4 players using Trinity in a Squad and see how well the fight goes compared to
other frames. But she makes any other frame OP because every frame relies on energy to cast skill for damage.

So Large Energy Restores is OP, but not as OP as Trinity because they requires credits and resources to craft.

[Fifield]

15 minutes ago, Ada_Wong_SG said:

Any team without Trinity can operate just as well

This isn't true as was explained on the second page of comments:

On 20/03/2016 at 7:47 AM, Fifield said:

EV can't be replaced by pizzas since you have to stand still, with everyone crowded on one spot to use the latter.  Also, placing them can be a PITA and you have to check someone's bringing the large ones.  EV is near global, can be used on the move, works a lot faster and every Trinity has it.

I've wondered if limiting restores to solo play would be a good way to start balancing the difficulty.

Edited March 23, 2016 by Fifield

[chuckdm]

I'm not going to respond to everything here, but I do want to add just one thing.

Mag is a frame.  She exists.  I think a LOT of people have forgotten this.

One easy and completely fair way to at least begin to move towards balance for Trinity is to remove ANY ability for Trinity to generate overshields - and make that ability innate to Mag.  Mag's augment for Shield Polarize should be part of the base skill itself, and Trinity simply shouldn't have any means at all to generate them.

I feel like all the other things are pointless to seriously debate until DE makes this a reality.  If they aren't willing to make such a minor, fair, balanced nerf as this to Trinity, then asking for all these other things is gonna be fruitless.

[Hellmaker2004]

1 minute ago, Fifield said:

The same bogus counterarguments come up again and again.

Clearly you didn't even read the second page of comments:

 

 

 Pizza's deploy instantly so you don't have to stand still at all.

If you want all of the 400 Energy, then you have to stand still, but Pizza's offer 100 energy once the button is pressed and they have no casting time, no target requirements and no cool-down.

 

While a Blessing Trinity, the only one offering all three roles you keep posting she dominates, can use it once every ~0.5 second assuming you have a target, someone kills the target before after cast is finished. It is also a two handed action thus stopping reloads, weapon usage, movement and can not be used in the air or while moving, it offers 100 energy per use as a base with a common modifier of around +30% for a total of ~130 Energy.

 

Trinity requires 1 / 4 group slots to be taken while Pizza requires 1 / 9 of  gear slots to be taken.

 

Energy Vampire only offers convenience for the group by not costing resources to produce.

 

[Ada_Wong_SG]

Just now, Fifield said:

The same bogus counterarguments come up again and again.

Clearly you didn't even read the second page of comments:

 

You are making the assumption of 

1) The Trinity is using EV build, thus no range restriction it seems ? Which makes the Trinity very squishy without link
otherwise for regular survival build/ bless build, the range might be less and EV suffers the same issue that restores do
that the EV target is out of range for the team to recieve the energy. 

This is of course, since EV can be re-casted without expending restores, it is free of any expenses, and can be quickily re-do to
adjust to the team's advantage.

2) You do not have to stand on top of the restore to be a siting duck, nearly the same as 60% range EV
you can move around the restores within a radius, a sphere which you can recieve the effect of restores.

3) Being stingy and not bring lots of restores because they are expensive to make ?
 

You quoted kind of blindly ? I never say it is going to be cheap to replace ?

16 minutes ago, Ada_Wong_SG said:

Any team without Trinity can operate just as well, but burning restores in extended missions 
might actually consume more resources than the mission actually earns.

To replace EV I have calculated... 10 EV would cost about 10 energy restores... which is around 9000 credits... 5000 nano spores/ 500 plastids/polymer bundle
Take Akkad for example, if you use around 20 energy restores, your mission credits and nano spores earned would be insufficient
cover the expenses

In a typical 5 round duration of Akkad/ Sechura, I typically deal about 20 - 30 EV within 5 waves.
Add that with Vampire Leech overshield, it is net loss of nearly 20k credit per run if you are to keep up with the performance of a Trinity 
by burning restores. 

 

24 minutes ago, Ada_Wong_SG said:

she is relatively cheaper to use in the long run

Now you use that on prolonged survival mission, the restore burn can be an issue.

 

 

[--Q--uaint]

On 3/20/2016 at 9:50 AM, Currilicious said:

Using the nerf route is a downward cycle. Min-maxers will always find other mechanisms to maximize efficiency, with ease of execution. Eventually, another round of nerf cries will commence. This will be a never-ending chase for "balance", at the expense of players that just want to have fun and not play the game like an Olympic event.

QFT. Cheesy enemies like Nullifiers are also among what I would call a nerf to player enjoyment.

[(PSN)KikoEschobar]

Reading through this thread has left me with a few questions. 

To OP: Do you honestly think that changing  Trinity will actually increase the difficulty level of the game? Explain please.

You said this issue is the reason behind your clan for lack of a better word "quitting the game. I would love for you to elaborate because as it stands that is highly questionable and very unlikely due to human nature and individuals in a group having different tastes. Are you sure that was the reason behind the exodus, are were there other factors involved? If this is a staple of your reasoning, I think you could bolster your argument to give details outside of "they quit because it was too easy" statement which is far to broad to be objective.

Lastly, I have to question your understanding of skill and difficulty as it relates to similar titles in this genre. Most (if not all) f2p games use a system where power spam is the most efficient method to getting past long sessions. Trinity is an instrument of power spam for sure, but her presence is not mandatory for 95% of the content. In fact, here on Ps4 I may see one trinity a day if I'm lucky (outside of LoR of course) and only about 40% of the time are they EV specified. If she is so useful, how come she is not played more often?

These are genuine questions that would help me get a better understanding of your topic's validity.

[-NEO-Roguelike]

Eeem what? Hello,heres 2016 - Trinity is dead! Zenurik and tablets dominate. Trinity in party - its just -1 slot for DD or control frame...

[torint_man]

1 hour ago, Fifield said:

Zenurik doesn't make EV less powerful.  Your criterion makes no sense.  Since most players consider P4TW to be damaging to the game, EV is OP.

In order to objectively as possible determine if something is OP, you have to compare it to what else exists. You can't determine if something is OP in a vacuum, OP needs context to be determined. If a gun deals 500 damage, you can't tell if it's OP or not if you don't know the stats of other guns. If most of the other guns deal 200 damage, it's OP, but if the majority deal 800 damage, it is not OP.

Since zenurik both exists, and is the best focus option in team scenarios(i.e. everyone uses it), one must take it into account when looking at things that affect the energy economy, EV being one of those things. 4 energy per second will make EV, the majority of the time, unnecessary. There are times when EV allows things not possible with the energy economy that zenurik supplies, but, as I showed in my previous post, they are few and far between. 

Zenurik's existence doesn't literally make EV less powerful, it just makes it less unique and game breaking in the grand scheme of the energy economy meta.

Also, what does "P4TW" mean?

[Fifield]

11 minutes ago, (PS4)KikoEschobar said:

To OP: Do you honestly think that changing  Trinity will actually increase the difficulty level of the game? Explain please..

Remove the OP source of energy = no more ability spam.  Other frames would be given equivalently weakened versions -- which improves variety.

13 minutes ago, (PS4)KikoEschobar said:

Are you sure that was the reason behind the exodus

Primarily, yes.  They also complained about bad game design a lot but I think they'd have cared less if the game was challenging.  A small part of it was the increasing lack of people to play with.

17 minutes ago, (PS4)KikoEschobar said:

Lastly, I have to question your understanding of skill and difficulty as it relates to similar titles in this genre. Most (if not all) f2p games use a system where power spam is the most efficient method to getting past long sessions. Trinity is an instrument of power spam for sure, but her presence is not mandatory for 95% of the content. In fact, here on Ps4 I may see one trinity a day if I'm lucky (outside of LoR of course) and only about 40% of the time are they EV specified. If she is so useful, how come she is not played more often?

She's boring to play -- another good reason to remake her. Few people willingly bring a Trinity.  Recruitment channels invariably are full of players asking for a Trinity.

Also the argument is not about mandatory.  It's about the degree to which Trinity being OP damages the game.

[-NEO-Roguelike]

4 minutes ago, torint_man said:

Also, what does "P4TW" mean?

Press 4 to win :D

[-NEO-Roguelike]

2 minutes ago, Fifield said:

Remove the OP source of energy = no more ability spam

Really? I can spam abilities without Trinity O_o

[-CM-Hekovashi]

I really don't need ev for like 4\5 of mine frames due to zenurik, unless i put max bling rage. Nova mp spam? Ez. Ability to recast globe every 5-10 sec. Yep. Ash bladestorm permaspam? Sure. Blind mirage that doesn't need ev at all and can keep whole map blinded? That's a thing. And more importantly-you don't need ev or zenirik at all, you can just spam pizzaz. DE themself add it to the game, and more importantly-they can't start a showcase of new frame\rework in dev streams without energy pizzaz. Energy is not a problem in this game at all, and ev make little to no difference (if you need ev to play warframe-just play some other game).

Maybe instead of nerfing stuff DE should begin to buff other stuff to lvl of where players find its good and viable in endgame, insead of bringing everything to trash tier (sry oberon and limbo)?....Oh wait DE already started doing it-with excel and frost reworks, they become perfectly viable choice for like every mission, regardless of level or type. Mag rework seems promising too. Can't say something about saryn rework without rant so il pass on this one.

TLTR-Trinity is fine. Nerf mentality should to go.

[RideaTear]

On 3/20/2016 at 8:55 PM, Fifield said:

 But to make you feel better, here's a list of the other OP abilities:
Exalted Blade
Snowglobe
Invisibility
Prism
Molecular Prime.
Bastille
Vortex

You have just named some of the most useful abilities in the game. Just because they are useful does not make them OP. Every game has characters that are more useful than others. In a perfectly balanced game you would lose most of the uniqueness that makes the characters fun to play. By taking these abilities and nerfing them you would take their usefulness away from them. Take Mesa as an example, sure she turned most games into a painful grind, but by nerfing her most useful ability she has become one of the least used frames. Nearly all frames have a way to contribute to a team, just because they aren't "meta" does not mean they can't be useful. Use whatever frame you think is fun, and if your squad has a problem with that then leave and find another. Imo Trinity is over used and not necessary in all but the most extreme circumstances (ex eximus stronghold sortie, LoR). 

[chaotea]

15 hours ago, Fifield said:

Indeed, and several people have done that, reducing 10 categories to 3 and saying that Trinity doesn't dominate any of them.  Obviously, the fewer categories, the harder it is for any frame to dominate them.

Looking at your list, somebody else brought up tank, which I think is a minor role.  The meta is either kill the enemy before it can damage you, or control it or go invis so it can't.
The others I've got in various forms.  What you'd have to do is rank them in order of importance and then see if you can split the important ones so a group is equally important.

 

To be honest i didnt think of tank as a role until i did the raids. Now i can see that a class that can either ignore damage completely or increase resistance and proc immunity can be very useful when moving objectives, and for reviving allies when crowd control just aint cutting it anymore. Plus alot of bosses and some special units just shrug of CC, so i think the tank is a useful role, if mostly only in late game.

Oh, also, Inaros is all tank. Just thought of that XD God i love inaros.

Edited March 23, 2016 by chaotea
Sudden realisation.

[climatiseur]

You keep repeating Trinity needs to be nerfed because the whole energy and scaling system is unbalanced and make the game too easy.

Then why don't you suggest how to balance the whole system FIRST and THEN suggest how Trinity could be changed to suit the new system?

If you nerf Trinity FIRST before changing the system, how could Trinity fits in the game? It is just unfair and nonsense that you choose to change the result first, rather then the cause. (The unbalance system is the cause, and Trinity dominating, according to you, is the result).

 

If you don't bother spending time to suggest how the whole game system could be changed before changing Trinity, then this thread is nothing but just a purely hate thread toward Trinity, just because (probably) you are being upset in game and this thread does't worth the discussion from the community.

 

[Pro3Display]

35 minutes ago, Ellthan said:

I find it absolutely hillarious how people are making lists with what other frames can do complete ignoring the point the OP is making.

NEWS: Just because a frame can do many things does not mean it excels at them. Oberon can CC, heal and provide damage immunity, but you don't see him a lot do you?

op made pretty clear point that he wont listen to anything that is not 100% same with his opinion

thus no one listens to his

 i find it absolutely hilarious... not

 

must make a note though that he is not 100% sure about the list he made hence can be influenced from the side because list is abstract in itself

Edited March 23, 2016 by Pro3Display

[Venomzz0]

12 hours ago, Fifield said:

Absolute nonsense.  Let's say DE bring in a frame that just maxes your equipment and wins the mission if you press 4.  OP, right?

They then bring in another frame that does the same thing.

So these skills are suddenly not OP?

Less unique, less in demand, yes.
But just as gamebreaking and just as damaging to frame variety.  Consequently, just as OP.
 

I went ahead and made a video about this actually, since everyone seems to forget that another source of energy that doesn't require a warframe OR a gear slot is the rage mod, which is just as powerful as EV spam. Its entirely possible to spam abilities without an EV trinity constantly pressing 2. 

 

 

[(PSN)KikoEschobar]

9 hours ago, Fifield said:

Remove the OP source of energy = no more ability spam.  Other frames would be given equivalently weakened versions -- which improves variety.

Primarily, yes.  They also complained about bad game design a lot but I think they'd have cared less if the game was challenging.  A small part of it was the increasing lack of people to play with.

She's boring to play -- another good reason to remake her. Few people willingly bring a Trinity.  Recruitment channels invariably are full of players asking for a Trinity.

Also the argument is not about mandatory.  It's about the degree to which Trinity being OP damages the game.

Thank you for the response. I don't feel that changing trinity would actually decrease power spam however. If anything mods such as prime flow and fleeting expertise will become more valuable to most builds, basically destroying any modding variety for most frames.

I will agree that she can be very boring to play, but she is a support frame in a third person shooter, so her popularity to value ratio is a little screwed in the value scales favor.

Lastly I don't feel she is OP because of the set objective of this game. Ultimately, the gameplay system is extremely similar to Dynasty Warriors in the "horde mode" game genre. In Warframe CC is King due to scaling reaching a certain point that damage abilities become detrimental rather than useful. While EV allows a plentiful amounts of energy, it does not break the game on its own such as other OP abilities that make you invincible or CC that creates mass scale A.I. confusion. An example would be Nyx's Chaos, which is considered by most to be an extremely balanced ability. However considering its effects on A.I. targeting, by definition it could be registered as OP.

IMHO I feel like Trinity is more a symptom of the problem the the actual problem. And changing her skills without the recognition of the actual issue will only do more harm than good.

[torint_man]

10 hours ago, Fifield said:

Absolute nonsense.  Let's say DE bring in a frame that just maxes your equipment and wins the mission if you press 4.  OP, right?

They then bring in another frame that does the same thing.

So these skills are suddenly not OP?

Your analogy of having two frame that literally have P4TW means you don't understand what I'm getting at. Practically all players in a team situation have zenurik as their focus, meaning that is the average state of the energy economy meta, having a passive 3-4 energy per second. Your analogy holds no water because there are 20+ frames, and none of them have a literal P4TW ability, meaning that is the average state, no literal P4TW. Those two frames in your analogy would be OP, as the frames with that ability would be in the small minority. The average state would still be no literal P4TW. If the majority of frames had a literal P4TW, it would not be OP, because if everything is OP, nothing is. The average state would become having a literal P4TW. The qualifications for an ability to be OP is all relative.

EV does break the energy economy meta even more than it already is with zenurik, but as I showed in this post: 

it doesn't matter that much as it was pretty broken already, and few viable abilities get their full potential from EV. 

10 hours ago, Fifield said:

Less unique, less in demand, yes.
But just as gamebreaking and just as damaging to frame variety.  Consequently, just as OP.

Also, you admitted that zenurik does make EV less in demand, so wouldn't that, by definition, make EV hurt frame variety less? The assertion you make that EV is just as damaging to frame variety despite zenurik is contradicted by your concession that zenurik makes EV less in demand.

Edited March 23, 2016 by torint_man

[-Temp0-]

9 hours ago, Fifield said:

Because nobody can come up with a proper counterargument as to why Trinity shouldn't be balanced but, for some reason they're unwilling to disclose, they don't want her to be balanced.

Because she's already balanced. Like what the actual f. No one bats an eye because Cleric in Souls series can heal himself, heal the phanthoms, and do a trucktone of damage at the same time, but when a support character in WF with ALL the strenght mods equiped can effectively heal the team or provide energy (what it was always supposed to do - because outside of that she can't do sht) everybody loses their minds. And cry "too ez for me, nerf the sht out of the frame because I came here to suffer and like having a hard time. And I also don't really care about the original role of a wf or other players, I want it my way". The right question would be, why the hell you bring trinity if you're feeling she's so OP? You almost never will get her in a random team (even in a sorties) and even a recruited team if the host didn't ask for her specifically when he recruited. So this OP-iness is easily resoved, don't want her energy and healing - don't bring her or ask of her.