Why do nullifiers still exist?

[(PSN)Decoy139]

On 3/25/2016 at 0:39 PM, Murasakiiro_no_Yugure said:

I seriously wanted to say that Banshee or mag and the other frames that are capable of doing some CC/area knockdown abilities is good on solo-ing high level corpus/void missions...

But guess what? Every time i wanted to bring a banshee with a bow out and do some high level corpus/void missions, Nullifiers just made me change my mind.

Why are they even existed?

Was it to prevent AOE CC ability spam or immortality ability abuse and promotes gunplay? THEN DON'T BLOCK BULLETS! IT IS STRESS INDUCING WHEN YOU ARE USING SLOW FIRE RATE WEAPONS!

or was it to promote sword play? player might lose their combo counter that ensures that they can still can do a considerable damage on the enemies after a long run when they are hitting the bubble using their melee weapons. AND NOT TO MENTION, there is only few frames that are viable for swordplay that can actually soak up some damage and WHICH they need to cast their abilities to prevent them from dying while reaching the enemies with their melee. 

In the end, i think nullifiers should get a rework, like may be changing their ability nullifying bubble into a 10 energy/ sec energy draining bubble that still blocks bullets but doesn't cancel your ability, OR make it remains the same(blocks bullets and prevent ability casting inside the bubble) but won't remove the ability effect that are already cast upon the players, OR make the shield smaller and looks like a 360 degree round barricade that has no rooftop that allows player to shoot the nullifiers directly if they are in the higher position.

 

Theres no point dude its a challenging enemy thats forces you to play differently and its insurance so that toggle abilities dont become op. Now getting stun locked by a naplam troop thats annoying .

[(PSN)Decoy139]

19 hours ago, Viedra_Lavinova said:

Nullifiers were a bandaid fix to Damage/CC AoE spam. As there are very few powers like that anymore, albeit Bladestorm, Radial Javelin, and Divine Spear for example, they should just be replaced by the combas/ scrambulas and Arctic Eximus. They have outlived their usefulness other than just enemy fodder and being annoying. Since warframe has grown/ evolved enough, I think it's time to remove them, or make them an ultra rare enemy. While at the time they were a good idea, now they just seem like an annoying guest overstaying their welcome.

If anything, they should be changed to have the enemies inside it immune to abilities, but arctic eximus can already kinda do that.

And while I'm at it for a slight off topic note, parasitic eximus are in the same boat as nullifiers. Both trying to combat ability spam in different ways, and both being bandaid fixes to  major problems, Enemy Scaling and Energy System/ Abilities for example.

Not a bandaid fix it goes for toggle and run abilities as well you cant yous sit on your &#! as emeber all day or happily shank everything with valkyr you gotta play a lil different .

[CrazyCatLad]

6 hours ago, Troll_Logic said:

Ok, I'll bite.  What's broken?  What are nullifiers supposed to fix?  How would you fix it instead?

No generic answers.  I'm sincerely asking your opinion.  I'll read and consider it no matter if it's 10 words or a huge wall of text.

I guess my other 5 questions weren't good enough to be addressed...

To address yours...Our ability to nuke entire rooms/floors/behind walls (LOS has been applies to most/all? abilities though I don't play nor test every frame to confirm.)  That had to be reigned in.  Instead of having enemies use cover or having them not charge directly at us, DE gave the Corpus Nullifiers.  Why they only have it is beyond me.

Our never ending powercreep of Primes, reskins, now probably Umbras, fancier gadgetry, primed mods (which I refuse to use), and new dual stat mods coming from either Moon, Nightmare, Conclave, augments, etc...  And DE's only response is buff their armor to level 9000 or give them a technology that takes away our magic.  Hey, but the Powerfist slam was a step in the right direction. 

Reskins (including Primes) should be sidegrades. Augments should be Prime-only and balanced to not be overpowered. 

 

Here is a list of things I came up with (as well as other users) on how to make the game more difficult without resorting to chucking nullifier domes onto everyone/thing or increasing armor to bullet sponge status:

I think a Damage 3.0 balance pass is in the works...or at least there are whispers in the starwaves...hopefully that will balance things about a bit.  Right now it is: Kill as many enemies as possible in as little time as possible. Which is fine and its fun but why that doesn't mean nullifiers and lockdowns need to even exist.  Nul Combas are fine - they only stop a couple of your powers though their area of effect should probably be visible on the floor. Another option could be a frontal shield - like Volt's Electric Shield - projected from the Nullifier instead of a dome that clips through all geometry.

 

A bit off topic but... here is a thread on getting rid of pointless lockdowns in solo mode: 

 

[marelooke]

On 30-3-2016 at 3:33 PM, Vitalis_Inamorta said:

I should probably point out that corpus nullifiers do absolutely nothing to stop high RoF weapons with toxic damage from completely S#&$ting on the entire corpus army as if they were a massive squad of shield lancers.

Did you notice that some of the Scrambus/Comba units offer a significant buff against toxic damage?  I didn't either... until I tried to cheese a corpus sortie with pure toxic dual ichors.  Worked great, and then I suddenly ran into some moas and drones that

Would...

NOT.....

DDIEIEIIII!!!!

They literally took 0 damage.  I figured out that I could slam attack to knock the moas down, and ground finishers turned out to be super effective on them, but those drones?

After finally getting my combo multiplier up to 3 and then 4, I finally pulled them to another room where they suddenly insta-died.

"Well... this is curious... I have no idea what just happened.  Must be a bug."

I continued on into the next room, took an elevator down, at which point the map retraced underneath the rooms I had traveled through before.  I came into a room with a comba, a few nullifiers, a few crewman, and a TON of drones and moas.  I killed the Comba.  I killed the Nullies in seconds.  I killed the crewmen in seconds.... AND THE FREAKING ROBOTS WERE IMMUNE TO DAMAGE.

"WTF?!?!?!...... wait... what's that sound... ANOTHER COMBA/SCRAMBUS on the other side of the wall!"

I went around the corner and killed it, with several of the robots following me... all of which instagibbed in about 1.5 seconds after the Scrambus died... which happened to be directly under the immortal robots in the upper level as well.

Guess what, robots have innate toxic resistance, and certain types of comba/scrambus apparently have an aura that boosts toxic resistance by a complimentary amount, thus complementary amount, for 100% toxic immune corpus robots.

Saryn does not like this.

4 hours ago, (PS4)Decoy139 said:

Not a bandaid fix it goes for toggle and run abilities as well you cant yous sit on your &#! as emeber all day or happily shank everything with valkyr you gotta play a lil different .

Primed Reach says "Hi".

[Xzorn]

12 hours ago, Futurehero said:

If you're allowed to do whatever you want in the game, and STILL can't deal with one type of enemy, it's your problem that you don't want to adapt.

So you want to reap the rewards and be on top of the ladder, but are unwilling to actually put in the effort, and instead want the game's balance to mold around you?

This thread needs a lock. Nobody here made any convincing arguments except "muh fun" and insults. This just seems like entitled scrub-lord behavior. Make the game revolve around MEEEE , instead of me adapting.  

As mentioned before nullifiers serve a purpose in this game and counter a specific playstyle. They don't need any changes.

Tons of people are dealing with them just fine.  If you can't deal with this one type of enemy, recruit people that can from your clan and clear the other types while they deal with the nullifiers. Or don't play missions where they appear. 

 

You think I find Nullifiers hard to deal with. I do not.

You think Nullifiers require more effort than the rest of the game's content, they do not.

You think Nullifiers design is correct in serving their purpose, it's not.

 

Tons of people are NOT dealing with Nullifiers using the following Weapons:

Grinlok, Hind, Latron, Latron Wriath, Latron Prime, Opticor, Boar, Hek, Vaykor Hek, Tigris, Sancti Tigris, Strun, Lanka, Rubico, Snipetron, Snipetron Vandal, Vectis, Vulkar, Vulkar Wraith, Cernos, Rakta Cernos, Mutalist Cernos, Daikyu, Dread, Paris, Paris Prime, Penta, Tonkor, Angstrum,,Lex, Lex Prime, Marelok, Vaykor Marelok., Magnus, Seer, Detron, Detron mara, Bronco, Bronco Prime.

 

There's prolly some I missed. The point is to show nearly half the gun roster is bad against Nullifiers while only 4 of the weapons named are top tier. Nullifiers only inhibit your weapons choices. the top weapons are still the top weapons made even more by Nullifier mechanics.

I use Soma P,  P.Grakata, Quanta Vandal,  V. Marelok, Twin Grakatas and Ignis the most of all my 98 weapons. All Nullifiers do for me is remove the choice of using Marelok and many other weapons I might feel like trying.

It's not adapting, it's a pigeon hole, I invite you to look up the difference.

Also, I've made proper argument why Nullifiers are a bad design and I've even offered a better and more challenging alternative on page 6 of this forum that does not limit a players weapon choices.

 

[Futurehero]

1 hour ago, Xzorn said:

You think I find Nullifiers hard to deal with. I do not.

You think Nullifiers require more effort than the rest of the game's content, they do not.

You think Nullifiers design is correct in serving their purpose, it's not.

 

Tons of people are NOT dealing with Nullifiers using the following Weapons:

Grinlok, Hind, Latron, Latron Wriath, Latron Prime, Opticor, Boar, Hek, Vaykor Hek, Tigris, Sancti Tigris, Strun, Lanka, Rubico, Snipetron, Snipetron Vandal, Vectis, Vulkar, Vulkar Wraith, Cernos, Rakta Cernos, Mutalist Cernos, Daikyu, Dread, Paris, Paris Prime, Penta, Tonkor, Angstrum,,Lex, Lex Prime, Marelok, Vaykor Marelok., Magnus, Seer, Detron, Detron mara, Bronco, Bronco Prime.

 

There's prolly some I missed. The point is to show nearly half the gun roster is bad against Nullifiers while only 4 of the weapons named are top tier. Nullifiers only inhibit your weapons choices. the top weapons are still the top weapons made even more by Nullifier mechanics.

I use Soma P,  P.Grakata, Quanta Vandal,  V. Marelok, Twin Grakatas and Ignis the most of all my 98 weapons. All Nullifiers do for me is remove the choice of using Marelok and many other weapons I might feel like trying.

It's not adapting, it's a pigeon hole, I invite you to look up the difference.

Also, I've made proper argument why Nullifiers are a bad design and I've even offered a better and more challenging alternative on page 6 of this forum that does not limit a players weapon choices.

 

And again, I have to say, I'm really not seeing it.......

I would ask you how do you know  that people are struggling with these enemies with "nearly half the gun roster".  I have played with some of those and I never had problems. 

Also, I really have to insist, they don't "take away your options", just some setups are less effective than others. Most enemies in the game work on that principle. If I want to take my Detron or Nukor versus the infested, I do so with the understanding that without proper modding it's going to fall off really early. If I fight sentients with a rapid fire gun that does a majority of its damage in one element , I do so understanding that I'll have to chip it down.  I don't understand how  gearing to fight a faction is pigeon-hole-ing.  If there was an enemy that had : "Immune to elemental damage" as a modifier, that would be closer to limiting your options. 

I read your suggestions. You want to take away bullet reflection on their shield and buff removal, and just make them tanky as hell at a base level. All that would do is screw over new players (which you bring up as one of the victims of this enemy's imbalance) , since for all they know they're just fighting a super tanky sniper crewman that takes forever to kill and dishes out high damage shots from his lanka.  For high level play, they'd just be another trash mob I mow down with my Sancti Tigris, I wouldn't even notice they have an ability dispelling shield since they'd be dead in micro-seconds along with all the other Corpus trash mobs. You're basically eliminating all the risk in engaging them. You can shoot through the shield with ANY weapon, and if that's not your thing, you can safely step inside their bubble with Inaros or Valkyr or any other of the god-mode frames and just beat them to death with your sword. 

Also, I see a lot of people bringing up modular corpus as a better alternative. This I really don't get, as they're enemies whose dispelling aura is invisible AND goes through walls, are also fairly fast, and two of their variants are armed with seeking multi-shot weapons that proc blast on you.  Are they a better alternative cause you can one shot them with your tonkor? Or that you can luck out with  their random aura and just get something that doesn't affect you in the slightest? (Like damage nullifier versus a Loki)

 

EDIT: Since a lot of the reasons why people are singling out this enemy is "I need to get my grind on quick and easy", I'd like to point out an enemy that's infinitely more unfair , but people don't encounter all that often: The Grineer Commander.  He can switch teleport you from anywhere on the map, he doesn't require direct line of sight to do so, and this move is 100% unblockable without cc immunity. When he does this you're stuck in a two second stun during which you're susceptible to all forms of damage. If there was an Corrupted Commander, would he be a better enemy to replace Nullifiers with in the void ?

Edited March 31, 2016 by Futurehero

[Xzorn]

6 minutes ago, Futurehero said:

-snip-

I know these weapons don't work well because, as I said I own 98 weapons.

Again you're using enemies and factions that can be avoided, the Void cannot be avoided if you wish to play and progress. I wouldn't mind as much if Nullifiers were only Corpus units, but they're not. The wrong weapons against Nullifiers are the wrong weapon at any level, it has nothing to do with scaling or fall off.

I didn't suggest they were a problem for new players in fact it's the opposite. I would suggest any new player just pimp out an Ignis and take a dump of the starmap. Hows that for good design?

Going inside a Nullifier bubble is not an option, even for Chroma, Valkyr or Inaros. You've obviously not tried to do so at any significant level, hell even under lvl 100 it's very much not  "safely step inside".

As far as your counter to my design suggestion. Your Sancti Tigris will do just about nothing to the Nullifier unless you kill the Ancient Healer first and then I assume you have punch-through or the heavies could very easily absorb most of the pellets. Then of course if you try that at any decent level within medium range the Gunners and Bombers inside the bubble will cut you down instantly. It's a far better alternative than spray bubble for 1 sec at max range and CC as usual. My design is far more rewarding to good aim and presents more challenge than the current. At the very least you have to look at what's coming your way or prioritize targets, right now you just spray bubble and it's over, I wouldn't even call that "engaging them".

My Tonkor is 3% used,  The Tonkor excuse doesn't work for me, I mostly use it to box farm lvl 0 frames.

[Troll_Logic]

3 hours ago, Lanieu said:

I guess my other 5 questions weren't good enough to be addressed...

To address yours...Our ability to nuke entire rooms/floors/behind walls (LOS has been applies to most/all? abilities though I don't play nor test every frame to confirm.)  That had to be reigned in.  Instead of having enemies use cover or having them not charge directly at us, DE gave the Corpus Nullifiers.  Why they only have it is beyond me.

Our never ending powercreep of Primes, reskins, now probably Umbras, fancier gadgetry, primed mods (which I refuse to use), and new dual stat mods coming from either Moon, Nightmare, Conclave, augments, etc...  And DE's only response is buff their armor to level 9000 or give them a technology that takes away our magic.  Hey, but the Powerfist slam was a step in the right direction. 

Reskins (including Primes) should be sidegrades. Augments should be Prime-only and balanced to not be overpowered. 

 

Here is a list of things I came up with (as well as other users) on how to make the game more difficult without resorting to chucking nullifier domes onto everyone/thing or increasing armor to bullet sponge status:

I don't think it's an either "use cover or not charge" or nullifiers.  Something that counters the warframe's magic seems logical to me.  Why does the Corpus using corpus only tech surprise you?

Again, I don't think that's the only response.  It's a response.  A problem with making the enemies smarter or making them use cover more often to increase player difficulty is that negates absolutely nothing against warframe magic.  A stomp pops them all up.  A blade storm still gets them all.  Miasma still works.  And so on.  As Conan learned, "flesh is stronger than steel" and warframe magic is very much more often a better option than any weapon.

 

As for your suggestions

I like the idea of higher level enemies having a shield.

Throw their weapon?  Not so much.

Infested wall and ceiling climbing?  Yes please.  Limited time?  Nope.  Let them ambush.

Infested chemical weapons?  Yes please.  Small disagreement on the vision.  I'm all for dimming or a tint but not for total blindness.

Throw traps?  I like it.

Enemy healing?  Sure.  Why wouldn't they?

Rig moas to blow up?  No rigging.  Let them always do it.  After all it's a machine.  Why prevent it near windows?  Why wouldn't a moa do that?

Better stealth detection?  Sure.

Teleporting grineer? I kinda like the idea but it doesn't feel like the grineer.

Magnetic walls?  Sure.

I like the smoke and going invisible, but why would they retreat?  We're on their ships and planets.

I don't mind the resistance auras. 

Repairs moas?  Don't make sense to me.  Just make more.

Better melee & parry.  Sure.

Infested teleporting? Doesn't feel like infested tech.

Merging into a juggy?  Ehhh, not feeling that but...

Infested consuming their dead?  Sure and the eater gains new and augmented abilities.

Crawlers exploding into maggots?  Nah.  Crawlers don't do that.

 

Lockdowns in solo?  Why not?  They work the same as in team play.

 

I like making the game harder.  I like the idea of a MR7 going into a lvl 80-100 mission and getting spanked repeatedly so hard that they're cursing and screaming at the game that they never think about going into a lvl100 game until they're MR15 or so with the requisite weapons.  I hate that there's no fear for the lower level players going into high level games (That stupid 4 revives per game change) and I dislike that there's no high level challenge.

That being said, I still like the nullifiers.  I think it makes perfect sense that the corpus have devised a way to counter the warframes magic and I think it makes perfect sense that they also carry a forcefield for personal protection.  I think it makes sense they also use that ability to protect other corpus.  Players can slide in, slash the nullifier, and then use magic to their hearts content.  Sure, the nullifiers can overlap.  That makes sense as well.

I like your ideas and suggestion, but I still like nullifiers and think they make perfect sense.  Thanks for the reply.

[Troll_Logic]

On 3/30/2016 at 2:44 PM, Lanieu said:

Not bent out of shape.

Nullifiers don't add difficulty. They add annoyance and inconvenience and are an artificial bandaid.  Whenever I see a Nullifier I have to rationalize "Oh, I guess the technology is too expensive for the rich Corpus to give to everyone." Or "Why don't they just coat their ship's interior/exterior with those shields?"

 

 Why not have Nullifier door traps instead of laser traps? Oh no, what did I just say?  Forget that! I love cheese but that not kind.

 

Why do I still take damage with full shields but my bullets can go through Nully shields?

 

Why are there no infested Nullifiers/Nul Combas?

 

Grineer haven't reversed engineered this yet?

 

'K, I'm done.

That's what I'd surmise,  The tech is too expensive or the materials are too rare to equip every corpus with it.  Maybe they could coat their ships with it.  Or the corpus/grineer/infested could just stop building warframe docking points in their ships.  Warframe logic only applies in the warframe universe.  It's not really rationalization.  You could "rationalize" why don't the corpus just nuke us?  Or the grineer just build a super rifle that kills a warframe in one shot?  Or the infested evolve to a point where they can infest a warframe and the player loses that warframe.  Everyone has to determine their "suspension of disbelief" line for each game.

Not sure nullifier door traps would do much.  Tenno power simply goes through the walls.

No idea what you mean with that question.

No idea.  Maybe they haven't infested any yet?

No idea.  It's corpus tech and I doubt the grineer has the ability to reverse engineer it much less actually build it.

[Cloud]

On 24/3/2016 at 5:57 PM, Murasakiiro_no_Yugure said:

yea im having fun sliding attack into the bubble just to kill it and then gets knockdown and killed right away. and yea like my puny melee attack will kill it in one hit when it is beyond level 150.

people still say this? LEVEL 150 IS  META GAMING. Warframe must not be balanced for meta gaming. What is the purpose in reaching such an high level? To find a challenge and increase the difficulty...so here you are ! But don't cry for nullifiers, cause you are choosing to fight against enhanced enemies, with nullifiers at that level you are far beyond of "Normal Gameplay" and since there is no limit for the level of difficulty you can reach in not-end missions , you cannot pretend that balancing is done on an infinite scale !

[Xzorn]

2 hours ago, LordCloud00 said:

people still say this? LEVEL 150 IS  META GAMING. Warframe must not be balanced for meta gaming. What is the purpose in reaching such an high level? To find a challenge and increase the difficulty...so here you are ! But don't cry for nullifiers, cause you are choosing to fight against enhanced enemies, with nullifiers at that level you are far beyond of "Normal Gameplay" and since there is no limit for the level of difficulty you can reach in not-end missions , you cannot pretend that balancing is done on an infinite scale !

People still think lvl 150 is somehow a high level?

With the constant power creep in this game lvl 150 is the new lvl 50. I had a harder time dealing with lvl 30 enemies in Damage 1.0 than I do dealing with lvl 100 enemies now.

I went to lvl 1,250 over a year ago and back then I was lucky to get 20k Single Target DPS, now I can pull 140k AoE DPS and people think we should all sit back and keep it under lvl 100 where my Ignis can already trivialize most of the content? Seriously I took an Ignis/Sonicor + Mirage to Sorties and wrecked the place, all three missions. The 3rd being Survival. This game is an utter bore if you stay within "Normal Gameplay".

 

[Cloud]

5 hours ago, Xzorn said:

People still think lvl 150 is somehow a high level?

With the constant power creep in this game lvl 150 is the new lvl 50. I had a harder time dealing with lvl 30 enemies in Damage 1.0 than I do dealing with lvl 100 enemies now.

I went to lvl 1,250 over a year ago and back then I was lucky to get 20k Single Target DPS, now I can pull 140k AoE DPS and people think we should all sit back and keep it under lvl 100 where my Ignis can already trivialize most of the content? Seriously I took an Ignis/Sonicor + Mirage to Sorties and wrecked the place, all three missions. The 3rd being Survival. This game is an utter bore if you stay within "Normal Gameplay".

 

so If you "trivialize" all the content and declare that absurd powercreep we have, are you complaining about the only enemy that you cannot 1-shot? Do you reach those high levels to find a challenge ? Here you are ! But don't cry now because it is "too hard". Sure nullifiers could get some tweak, for example some good interaction with sniper rifles, giving to them actually a real purpose in this game, or a change at their spawn rate,etc... but they do not deserve to be removed since without them is just a spam fest.

[CrazyCatLad]

7 hours ago, Xzorn said:

People still think lvl 150 is somehow a high level?

With the constant power creep in this game lvl 150 is the new lvl 50. I had a harder time dealing with lvl 30 enemies in Damage 1.0 than I do dealing with lvl 100 enemies now.

I went to lvl 1,250 over a year ago and back then I was lucky to get 20k Single Target DPS, now I can pull 140k AoE DPS and people think we should all sit back and keep it under lvl 100 where my Ignis can already trivialize most of the content? Seriously I took an Ignis/Sonicor + Mirage to Sorties and wrecked the place, all three missions. The 3rd being Survival. This game is an utter bore if you stay within "Normal Gameplay".

 

I miss the days when Level 30 enemies were end game and actually difficult :(

I remember when the Asteroid tileset first released years ago I got destroyed because I didn't have good gear.  Came back when Damage 2.0 came about and everything was easy.

[magusat999]

2 hours ago, LordCloud00 said:

so If you "trivialize" all the content and declare that absurd powercreep we have, are you complaining about the only enemy that you cannot 1-shot? Do you reach those high levels to find a challenge ? Here you are ! But don't cry now because it is "too hard". Sure nullifiers could get some tweak, for example some good interaction with sniper rifles, giving to them actually a real purpose in this game, or a change at their spawn rate,etc... but they do not deserve to be removed since without them is just a spam fest.

Who says Nullifiers are the answer? Obviously there is an matter of them causing the game to become less entertaining, and in the end no matter how you slice it, people play games to be entertained. Just because something is "hard" doesn't mean it is challenging. There is a fine line between challenge and irritation. Nullifiers are not a problem in and of themselves - its the combination of a number of factors, situations and enemy types all combining to create not what is a challenging atmosphere - but a complete wall blocking the fun elements of the game. They don't necessarily have to go (although we cannot rule that out) but they need a drastic change. Just because they exist does not mean they are the answer, or their existence in the game is either defensible or permanent. "Because they make the game harder" is not a valid reason to keep them as is - or at all. If the game has to be a cakewalk ion order for it to be "balanced" then that is just how the game should be, forget all the "hardcore" nonsense. Who says Warframe "has to" be that challenging anyway? We don't need to be so desperate for "challenging" that we break the game or accept anything - challenge means there is a way to succeed - at some point there is no way to succeed against Nullifiers and the other limiters, especially when they all come at once and in massive numbers.  Clearly that is not a challenge, but rather a complete "Do not Pass" sign. The "End Game" should be a message telling us we have reached the end of the challenge, not an eventual "Your all dead"  screen, because the game's leveling up is not tempered with balance - the other side of balance being ensuring that people can continue to play, which is not the end result here.

Edited April 1, 2016 by magusat999
added information

[Cloud]

46 minutes ago, magusat999 said:

Who says Nullifiers are the answer? Obviously there is an matter of them causing the game to become less entertaining, and in the end no matter how you slice it, people play games to be entertained. Just because something is "hard" doesn't mean it is challenging. There is a fine line between challenge and irritation. Nullifiers are not a problem in and of themselves - its the combination of a number of factors, situations and enemy types all combining to create not what is a challenging atmosphere - but a complete wall blocking the fun elements of the game. They don't necessarily have to go (although we cannot rule that out) but they need a drastic change. Just because they exist does not mean they are the answer, or their existence in the game is either defensible or permanent. "Because they make the game harder" is not a valid reason to keep them as is - or at all. If the game has to be a cakewalk ion order for it to be "balanced" then that is just how the game should be, forget all the "hardcore" nonsense. Who says Warframe "has to" be that challenging anyway? We don't need to be so desperate for "challenging" that we break the game or accept anything - challenge means there is a way to succeed - at some point there is no way to succeed against Nullifiers and the other limiters, especially when they all come at once and in massive numbers.  Clearly that is not a challenge, but rather a complete "Do not Pass" sign. The "End Game" should be a message telling us we have reached the end of the challenge, not an eventual "Your all dead"  screen, because the game's leveling up is not tempered with balance - the other side of balance being ensuring that people can continue to play, which is not the end result here.

"at some point there is no way to succeed against Nullifiers" wrong. There is and there will be always a way to succeed, it's just that the game becomes particular hard and requires more coordination. Basically you must change your approach from ( "I can play solo, exterminating the whole map alone in few clicks, without even care what my team is doing"   to   " in order to succeed I must use tactical positions, strategies and do REAL team work". Then it's natural that you find a "dead line" which you can't trepass. In a mission without end before or after there will be always a point in which to continue is a suicide or take LOT of time and patience. You deceive yourself if you think that it can be avoided,

Instead for the "we are not desperate for challenging" I would say that is normal, more you go into the game, more the mission becomes hard. It is not  "desperate need", it's just logical. A game without challenges is not a game and one of the most popular cons of Warframe is just that it is "a piece of cake ". 

Sure, as I told in my previous comment some tweak , especially in the spawn rate could be adjusted BUT till De will choose to change nullifiers in something else with better IA or more interesting mechanics (evolution which can take place for EVERY enemy, since it's always possible "to do better") they do not deserve to be disposed.

 

[Xzorn]

7 hours ago, LordCloud00 said:

so If you "trivialize" all the content and declare that absurd powercreep we have, are you complaining about the only enemy that you cannot 1-shot? Do you reach those high levels to find a challenge ? Here you are ! But don't cry now because it is "too hard". Sure nullifiers could get some tweak, for example some good interaction with sniper rifles, giving to them actually a real purpose in this game, or a change at their spawn rate,etc... but they do not deserve to be removed since without them is just a spam fest.

I don't want them removed, I want their mechanics changed to stop inhibiting the value of skillful, every-shot-counts type weapons. That sort of thing should never happen in a shooter, it's of the highest level of sin.

They also fail at presenting a challenge as well as their design purpose which needs to be address. They're not channeling if you use the "correct" weapons and since you can remove their bubble in 1 second of bullet spray then CC as usual they fail at their purpose. I object against their design, not their purpose. They limit the available weapons you can use for end-game content, which has already been limited due to the bad design around Damage 2.0.

The best design change I could think of I posted on page 7, though I don't claim it to be perfect I think it's a much better design than what we're presented with.

 

6 hours ago, Lanieu said:

I miss the days when Level 30 enemies were end game and actually difficult :(

I remember when the Asteroid tileset first released years ago I got destroyed because I didn't have good gear.  Came back when Damage 2.0 came about and everything was easy.

I enjoy the features we've been given over time but I think Damage 1.0 was much more interesting as far as challenge and gun play. Being forced to headshot everything or do no damage without puncture was too difficult for some, I guess. I still remember an Infested Ancient being an epic bullet spray fight as it and 10 other infested charge you. Now there's like 10 at a time and they all try to cheese pull you to emulate difficulty.

I think prolly half my failed missions are still from those days, I never fail anymore. Back then even the AI was less forgiving. In Defense missions enemies would prioritize the objective over you, forcing you to kill as fast as you could or loose. Now they prioritize you over the objective and even run from you, wtf am I defending for again?

When Excalibur is one of the top DPS dealers by holding down a macro and running back and forth like an idiot; something has gone terribly wrong.

[magusat999]

9 hours ago, LordCloud00 said:

"at some point there is no way to succeed against Nullifiers" wrong. There is and there will be always a way to succeed, it's just that the game becomes particular hard and requires more coordination. Basically you must change your approach from ( "I can play solo, exterminating the whole map alone in few clicks, without even care what my team is doing"   to   " in order to succeed I must use tactical positions, strategies and do REAL team work". Then it's natural that you find a "dead line" which you can't trepass. In a mission without end before or after there will be always a point in which to continue is a suicide or take LOT of time and patience. You deceive yourself if you think that it can be avoided,

Instead for the "we are not desperate for challenging" I would say that is normal, more you go into the game, more the mission becomes hard. It is not  "desperate need", it's just logical. A game without challenges is not a game and one of the most popular cons of Warframe is just that it is "a piece of cake ". 

Sure, as I told in my previous comment some tweak , especially in the spawn rate could be adjusted BUT till De will choose to change nullifiers in something else with better IA or more interesting mechanics (evolution which can take place for EVERY enemy, since it's always possible "to do better") they do not deserve to be disposed.

 

Thank you for agreeing with me. Except for that last statement "they do not deserve to be disposed" - I say to that, why not? So the artificial difficulty can be in place and certain players don't "get bored" because it's "too easy"? That's ludicrous. That's like findo out your bread is infected with a deadly mold, but since you don't have any fresh bread you make a sammich and eat it anyway. If it's not working, it needs to go. Perhaps for the people who love Nullifiers so much DE can make a whole mission just for them? Nullifier Planet! Then you will all have your beloved ability blocker any time you wish for a "challenge", since that is apparently the only challenge in the game according to some - but not most.

[Xzorn]

1 hour ago, bbeeaann said:

    1. There is nothing wrong with their mechanics. They are designed to make you think about how to approach the enemy without using your powers, but you want this fixed. This makes absolutely no sense at all. Why do you think they're called Nullifiers? Because they nullify your frames ability. Stop trying to kill something with your frames ability and use your weapons. Is it really that hard to figure out? Are the bubbles hindering your shots? Then jump into them, kill the Nullifier, and jump to safety. Is it truly that hard?

2. How can you state that a take down from an ancient is simulating difficulty. That one mechanic is the most annoying thing about this game. I've perished multiple times being dragged by an Ancient in a Sortie into a group of enemies, but you don't find me complaining about it do you? No. Why? Because it's part of the challenge of the game that I appreciate.Your stance basically equates to this: I don't like the changes in the game because the Nullifiers screw my ability to use my frames powers. Can we please go back to the days where DE didn't have the frames abilities polished so we can use our guns more..Really? I don't mean to seem rude, but  why are you playing this game if you would prefer CS:Go over it?

 

I don't think you actually read anything I've said.

And we are on two completely different levels dude.

I don't use damage abilities at all....  Actually, I use Polarize, but that will be gone soon and even then Nullifiers do nothing to my Mag, I spray their bubble press 2 and everything goes away as usual. Just takes 0.5 seconds longer. Great design.

This game was More difficult before, that's what you don't seem to understand, Before,Ancients were a massive force. You had to not only put a full mag into their head but if they got close to you they would knock you down like they do now, it was fair play. They had to add cheese pull and auras because they're stupidly easy to kill now. I just did that 1hour joke survival mission for an Ammo Drum and one shot everything using my War while being immune to knockdown with 0 deaths, solo.

There's no challenge in this game anymore it's just pick a specific setups to get around "fake difficulty" and one shot everything. Nulllifiers are no different, just worse.

"Polished Abilities", Is that a joke?

[Maicael]

On 3/28/2016 at 0:15 PM, Xzorn said:

The easiest fix for Nullifiers:

1. Enemy no longer removes current buffs when entering it's bubble.
2. Enemy no longer deflects bullets. ( though it will still bounce projectiles with low velocity such as Launchers )
3. Bubble size is static and does not change.
4. Bubble still prevents abilities from penetrating and from being cast within.
5. Increase Base HP and Shields of the unit itself.
6. Keep shimmering bubble visual as it fairly hinders aimed shot at units protected by it.

1. I could agree with this on some abilities that are only passively used like Iron Skin or Warding Halo(can't think of others at the moment). They could function like Frost's Snow Globe in that it doesn't remove it, but it's still like it's not there as long as you're in a Nullifier bubble. Duration-based abilities should perhaps be looked at on a case-by-case basis. If ability is cast on an enemy external to the Nullifier (Mind Control, Sleep), then don't cancel it, but anything on the frame itself should either be cancelled immediately or have its countdown speed increased by some multiplier (x3 speed at least).
2. / 5. Should be a significant health increase. Comba/Scrambus have 1100 base health compared to Nullifier's 60. Maybe give less health than Comba/Scrambus, but toss in 20 base armor (Alloy or Ferrite) as a little ..I.. from the Corpus. They are escort units used to protect squads, so you'd want to spend a little more on protecting them.
3. I'm guessing not a way to take it down other than killing the Nullifier? I'm okay with that with the implementation of #2.
4. Including abilities that currently bring down the bubble(Hysteria/Exalted Blade)? Combined with #3 will make some unhappy Valkyr/Excalibur players. I'm okay with that. My Valkyr has been sitting in my Foundry since the Hysteria rework, so don't know how it would effect those players.

      6. Could leave it alone or give it something new and make it less conspicuous due to not blocking gunfire. Maybe an imperfect, shimmering invisibility. Like a slightly more pronounced energy overlay using Loki's Invisibility. Enemies protected by it could have individual shimmering bubbles so you still know to look for it and have an idea of its range of influence even if not an exact radius.

1 hour ago, Xzorn said:

I don't use damage abilities at all....  Actually, I use Polarize, but that will be gone soon and even then Nullifiers do nothing to my Mag, I spray their bubble press 2 and everything goes away as usual. Just takes 0.5 seconds longer. Great design.

Soooo...Enemies were escorted into your line-of-sight before you were able to AoE kill them? Nullifier's mission accomplished. Even in that short amount of time enemies could get off a couple of shots and at lvl 150 (or the new 50 as you say) a few shots can be all it takes. Even if that one doesn't succeed, there's more to take his place.

 

Even though DE has introduced a number of new units we haven't really had an Enemies 2.0 afaik. Maybe that will be something to focus on after Starchart and Damage 3.0. I created a thread with thoughts on a few relatively small changes to Grineer units that would be interesting; biggest changes focused on Shield Lancer.

[Vitalis_Inamorta]

Challenging? Please.  Nullifiers aren't challending if you take EZPZ gear like somas and boltor(special)s.  It's not challenging at the level people like YOU play at.

Here's the problem.  It's not that it's challenging, or that it takes skill or adaptation.  It's that it's anti-skill and anti-adaptation.  It reinforces using the bullet hoses that most of the rest of the game already mandates by sending in hordes of enemies.  It.  Literally.  Punishes.  Even.  Attempting.  To.  Use.  Skillful.  Weapons.

[GrimAtrament]

2 minutes ago, Vitalis_Inamorta said:

Challenging? Please.  Nullifiers aren't challending if you take EZPZ gear like somas and boltor(special)s.  It's not challenging at the level people like YOU play at.

Here's the problem.  It's not that it's challenging, or that it takes skill or adaptation.  It's that it's anti-skill and anti-adaptation.  It reinforces using the bullet hoses that most of the rest of the game already mandates by sending in hordes of enemies.  It.  Literally.  Punishes.  Even.  Attempting.  To.  Use.  Skillful.  Weapons.

bolter is garbage and i dont use the soma try again when did the grinlock sybris and vaykor hek count as a bolter and soma please dont asume what people use

Edited April 2, 2016 by hazerddex

[Vitalis_Inamorta]

11 minutes ago, hazerddex said:

bolter is garbage and i dont use the soma try again when did the grinlock sybris and vaykor hek count as a bolter and soma please dont asume what people use

And yet those are some of the best weapons with which to combat nullifiers, and yours are some of the worst.

What were you guys saying about "adapting" to challenges again?

[GrimAtrament]

13 minutes ago, Vitalis_Inamorta said:

And yet those are some of the best weapons with which to combat nullifiers, and yours are some of the worst.

What were you guys saying about "adapting" to challenges again?

if your using a sniper then bring a fast firing gun like the statcor i dont use snipers that often because it does not mesh with this games combat speed of the parkor system thats my choice but if your going to snipe in any video game you should by defalt bring a fast firing side arm also last i checked grinlock was hated by people also those are not all the weapons i use theres also the  ZHuge latron prime lanka opticor and convectrix quanta vandal and rakta cernos also synoid simulor

 

your really just blowing an enemy that has many ways to deal with out of proprtions because it does not sute YOUR playstyle while meenwhile millions of others are fine with it

Edited April 2, 2016 by hazerddex

[Xzorn]

1 hour ago, Maicael said:

1. I could agree with this on some abilities that are only passively used like Iron Skin or Warding Halo(can't think of others at the moment). They could function like Frost's Snow Globe in that it doesn't remove it, but it's still like it's not there as long as you're in a Nullifier bubble. Duration-based abilities should perhaps be looked at on a case-by-case basis. If ability is cast on an enemy external to the Nullifier (Mind Control, Sleep), then don't cancel it, but anything on the frame itself should either be cancelled immediately or have its countdown speed increased by some multiplier (x3 speed at least).
2. / 5. Should be a significant health increase. Comba/Scrambus have 1100 base health compared to Nullifier's 60. Maybe give less health than Comba/Scrambus, but toss in 20 base armor (Alloy or Ferrite) as a little ..I.. from the Corpus. They are escort units used to protect squads, so you'd want to spend a little more on protecting them.
3. I'm guessing not a way to take it down other than killing the Nullifier? I'm okay with that with the implementation of #2.
4. Including abilities that currently bring down the bubble(Hysteria/Exalted Blade)? Combined with #3 will make some unhappy Valkyr/Excalibur players. I'm okay with that. My Valkyr has been sitting in my Foundry since the Hysteria rework, so don't know how it would effect those players.

      6. Could leave it alone or give it something new and make it less conspicuous due to not blocking gunfire. Maybe an imperfect, shimmering invisibility. Like a slightly more pronounced energy overlay using Loki's Invisibility. Enemies protected by it could have individual shimmering bubbles so you still know to look for it and have an idea of its range of influence even if not an exact radius.

Soooo...Enemies were escorted into your line-of-sight before you were able to AoE kill them? Nullifier's mission accomplished. Even in that short amount of time enemies could get off a couple of shots and at lvl 150 (or the new 50 as you say) a few shots can be all it takes. Even if that one doesn't succeed, there's more to take his place.

 

Even though DE has introduced a number of new units we haven't really had an Enemies 2.0 afaik. Maybe that will be something to focus on after Starchart and Damage 3.0. I created a thread with thoughts on a few relatively small changes to Grineer units that would be interesting; biggest changes focused on Shield Lancer.

1. Yea my concept was primarily duration abilities like Iron Skin, War cry, Vex Armor, ect. I do think channel abilities should be canceled. Debuffs should be suppressed as long as the enemy was outside the bubble when cast and remains inside. Once they leave the debuff persists, much like I think it works now, at least with Mprime.

2 That's around what I was thinking, if they did armor, Alloy would prolly make more sense for corpus. It's the same idea as a medic unit, in majority of games a support role is usually tougher to kill than say a DPS based one.

3. Yep

4. Abilities like Exalted blade should fizzle when they come in contact with the field. Right now Exalted blade is one of the better things to use against them which as it's a war frame ability; makes no damn sense. Valkyr is a special case I think, I too enjoyed her more before Hysteria rework. She's pretty boring. I think the immortal should be removed but it must not be removed without giving her other options. Right now she has little to no group value and honestly there's not a big reason to play her other than to faceroll a survival mission. For all Channel abilities in general there needs to be a reason to turn them off beyond simply running out of energy, currently there's no reason for Valkyr to come out of Hysteria, Ember to stop WoF or Excal to stop using Exalted Blade.

5. The idea is just to make the Nullifier inside the bubble harder to visually target. It could be done a few ways, leaving it as is just seems simple.

 

Yea.... for 1 second.. the Nullifier worked as designed....  I guess. Thought for majority of units, esp in the Void, my max range is twice their max range. Snipers and Railgun Moas tend to shoot from farther but  I usually see little if any retaliation before the bubble is gone.

I really have hopes for Damage 3.0, there's a lot of stuff they could do besides just nerfing multishot that would add a lot to the game, my primary would be status effects, Currently Slash/Viral is king. Magnetic/Corrosive being slightly useful. Most others esp Puncture/Impact being totally worthless. If they made enemies overall harder to deal with via damage and rewarding good aim. I think they could cut out some of this cheese they've been adding and I've preached on enemy AI Improvements before, I've seen a few improvements like the way Mutalist Moa act and Leapers trying to dodge you but for the most part not much improvement, esp in terms of stealth play.

 

Edited April 2, 2016 by Xzorn

[Ryunokage]

On 28/03/2016 at 3:15 AM, Xzorn said:

The easiest fix for Nullifiers:

• Enemy no longer removes current buffs when entering it's bubble.
• Enemy no longer deflects bullets. ( though it will still bounce projectiles with low velocity such as Launchers )
• Bubble size is static and does not change.
• Bubble still prevents abilities from penetrating and from being cast within.
• Increase Base HP and Shields of the unit itself.
• Keep shimmering bubble visual as it fairly hinders aimed shot at units protected by it.

1. I can agree with this affecting passive, non-channelled buffs, some effects though are just too powerful to remain unaffected, the ash/loki invisibility being one of them. Rather then remove buffs however, could it perhaps render these effects neutralized so long as the warframe is within the nullifer's field.

2. This I can agree with, allow it to let bullets and fast projectiles through, while turning slower projectiles, like launchers aside. As an added effect I would like to suggest that the field apply a flat damage mitigation effect to incoming fire, reducing the damage of each projectile that crosses its boundaries. Players with assault weapons can't just blindly hose down the bubble, while snipers and archers would want to line up that headshot to make sure the nullifier/enemy dies in the first hit.

4. This needs to stay, though for added danger I'd like to see abilities cast at the field, or abilities cast within the field in its area of effect suffer some manner of feedback. Perhaps either damaging careless players, depleting their power reserves or buffing enemies for a period of time. For example, excalibur prime recieving 100hp of damage for every enemy struck by EB wave, but killing said enemy, or the valkyr beginning to suffer accumulated damage as a DoT when it enters the nullifier's field, that only ends once the player either kills the nullifier or exits the field. This could also make power use a tactical decision every time and drive players to make trade offs between benefits costs of power use in each situation.