Low MR in Sorties

[MagPrime]

1 minute ago, venon23 said:

well is not like that allways

EX: i teatch and give tons of stuff for my clan mates but i can play with them only ate weekends cuz the time  get one in a normal day of the week evrybody is asleep

I actually made a suggestion on the other page about having the MR lock set at 8 or 10 for public matches but for friend/invite only, keep it at MR4, specifically for situations like you're outlining.

And while you do have a point, it doesn't apply to every MR4-7 joining PUG's Sorties right now.  From what you've described, players like you aren't even part of the perceived issue.

[venon23]

1 minute ago, DarkOmegaGamer said:

Mastery Rank doesn't determine how well someone would do in Sorties. All Mastery Rank determines is how many things someone has leveled up. You could be MR 5 and have played hundreds of hours and be very knowledgeable at the game. Sorties are for players who know the game well enough to play through difficult missions, that's why a new system should be put in place to help prevent handicapped players from playing them until they are ready.

let give u a ex:
there this dude MR rank 6 that have similar builds too me doing ok at any place
and there is other dude MR 11 that didnt have multishot at any weapo(we joke with him alot in TS)
and this dude MR 11 couldent do shshst

[(PSN)DesecratedFlame]

9 minutes ago, ChronoEclipse said:

I think it’s fair to say that they should allow running the mission at any MR, but only allow you to PUG it if you're MR8 or above. How does that sound?

Perfect honestly.

[fatpig84]

3 minutes ago, DarkOmegaGamer said:

Mastery Rank doesn't determine how well someone would do in Sorties. All Mastery Rank determines is how many things someone has leveled up. You could be MR 5 and have played hundreds of hours and be very knowledgeable at the game. Sorties are for players who know the game well enough to play through difficult missions, that's why a new system should be put in place to help prevent handicapped players from playing them until they are ready.

Hundreds of hours is actually low in Warframe.
Because of how the modding systems, you need to be at least 1000 hours to be consider an average player.
 

[MagPrime]

1 minute ago, venon23 said:

let give u a ex:
there this dude MR rank 6 that have similar builds too me doing ok at any place
and there is other dude MR 11 that didnt have multishot at any weapo(we joke with him alot in TS)
and this dude MR 11 couldent do shshst

But not every low MR player is like that.  There are some that are like the MR11 you're describing. 

[Leavith]

Well the idea of setting it at master rank 8 is good one.

Now many may argue master rank means nothing as it doesn't really display the amount of skill you truly have but it those display how much content you have played. I was in Draco the other day and some how a person had taxi a master rank 2 into Draco I was a bit surprise I know this was a public match ,but honestly master rank 2 is basically rank 30 1st warframe and 3 weapons I believe then your master rank 2.

Now I am sure people can argue master rank still doesn't mean how good you are but master rank 8 at least means you have equipment that is useful to bring to High level play session.Now I don't dislike low master rank player I want to clear that up.

Now people may argue well if you don't want to be in that kind of situation don't play PuG...Well that is true but why in the world is this situation ever occurring we know the Sorti content is meant to be a hard difficult type of level that is not meant to be easy to play(mind who you ask some sorti are easy and some are hard..i solo a lot of mine just because I know what PuG brings),But people will try their hand at content unless is locked and because they try their hand at content they are literally not ready for it brings the team potential low and discourages cooperative gameplay.

I actually want to know who has fun getting in a team were the team member don't do anything and you have to pick them up of the floor every time a wave starts.----I don't.

SO I feel yeah master rank 8 should be a good lock .Master rank may not mean much but it those provide people to know that hey this person has played this much of content and has tools he can use.

Sorti isn't like pvp were you can send a master rank 2 in and a player can be good just because of how skilled they are at using their weapons.

Sorti are the accumulated experience of tools(such as mods and weapons) and mission(such as how a mission works what are good choke points for the enemy ambush and what warframe works well with what mission)at least master rank shows us that they must have at least played the game and gotten certainly far in leveling weapons that could be use and are perform at leavel to fight this enemy.That is why I feel a master rnak lock like rank 8 would be good for sorti or to at least try your hand at it.

I mean at least this what I believe.

Have master rank 2 using their weapons that have no reactor,have no catalyst,and have no proper mod pool being in your team is not fun.Yes,i know I am just asking for it specially if I play PuG but this sort of situation shouldn't even be a thing when the content intension are for higher level playing and challenge.

 

Edited April 3, 2016 by Leavith

[Omekah]

1 minute ago, fatpig84 said:

Hundreds of hours is actually low in Warframe.
Because of how the modding systems, you need to be at least 1000 hours to be consider an average player.
 

I know that, but I was just giving an example. Lets just say the theoretical player in that example learned a lot about the game in his 200-400 hours, which is possible.

[fatpig84]

3 minutes ago, DarkOmegaGamer said:

I know that, but I was just giving an example. Lets just say the theoretical player in that example learned a lot about the game in his 200-400 hours, which is possible.

Again it is not conclusive. Because he could have spent half of his 100/200 hours in Draco.
The other time is spent on farming components or fooling around.

In fact I don't consider Mastery or hours played to be a true indicator anymore.

But only on how many Primed mods you max is the only fair indicator.
R10 rare and common / uncommon all can be maxed as someone as low as MR4.

Edited April 3, 2016 by fatpig84

[Omekah]

3 minutes ago, Noamuth said:

But not every low MR player is like that.  There are some that are like the MR11 you're describing. 

His point being that there are still people out there like that, but he was mainly adding to my explanation.

[Leavith]

14 minutes ago, DarkOmegaGamer said:

I know that, but I was just giving an example. Lets just say the theoretical player in that example learned a lot about the game in his 200-400 hours, which is possible.

Knowing the game and actually having tools to use with that knowledge can be consider two different things.

Example I hunt a Lion I know I should bring a weapon and I know were he is at and how to kill him....and I know the best weapon for the job is a gun, but all I have are knifes.That shows yeah I know a lot about lions and how to kill them and were to find them but I don't have the tools to tackle this problem which is why I will stay away from the Lion until I have the tools to fight.

See now lets apply this to warframe...

I know about sorti and how to complete them.I know what to do and I know what I should bring....and I know the best tools for the job is X with X mods,but all I have are MK-1 series weapons and my 1st warframe I that I max rank 30.Now it gets interesting cause their are two ideas at play here

now 1st just a disclaimer on my behalf regarding your comment you bring up.... meaning the example you mention....I do think it cannot happened because if theoretical player had learned a lot about the game he would not be attacking a challenge he know for.

Now getting to The 1st idea is that a player feels like trying something out to see if he can handle it which is fine and all that means he is at least trying to do something

the 2nd one is basically this .....Now I clearly don't have the tools to tackle this problem but because I can be carried and no one can do anything against it cause is allowed I am gonna let myself be carried.

See the difference here

 

 

Edited April 3, 2016 by Leavith

[Educated_Beast]

I'm going to have to agree that an MR lock is needed for pugs.  MR may not be the best measurement tool and there may be some good low level MR players, but they are few and far between.  I see guys wanting to use shield distrupt with mag in group, refuse to take off energy syphon when corrosive much better choice, bad weapons, mods, etc. 

 

I've gotten to the point where I will revive once, maybe more if its an endless mission, then they are on own.  I'm just tired of people not contributing and being ungrateful. 

 

If not MR, maybe go by hours played.  No sorties until log say 500 hours. 

[Xaero]

Really? You don't wanna help newbies? Why else would an experienced player set public MM in sortie? Perhaps because you are not good enough and need to be dragged yourself.

Edited April 3, 2016 by -Ksaero-

[jinxeverything]

13 minutes ago, Educated_Beast said:

I'm going to have to agree that an MR lock is needed for pugs.  MR may not be the best measurement tool and there may be some good low level MR players, but they are few and far between.  I see guys wanting to use shield distrupt with mag in group, refuse to take off energy syphon when corrosive much better choice, bad weapons, mods, etc. 

 

I've gotten to the point where I will revive once, maybe more if its an endless mission, then they are on own.  I'm just tired of people not contributing and being ungrateful. 

 

If not MR, maybe go by hours played.  No sorties until log say 500 hours. 

Agreed on MR but i have to disagree on revive but i do admit some times reviving others can get annoying after while but if they bring something that can help with the mission then you have to revive them unless they are just careless or clueless then yeah they are on their own.

I logged 1517 hours according to my Steam.

To the guy who said the guy who didnt have multishot on his gun didnt well, then see this build :

Can still kill high level enemies no problem and no i wont put in Split Chamber, why, trying to get used it before the multi shots get its rework!

Edited April 3, 2016 by Prinny13

[Omekah]

1 minute ago, Leavith said:

Knowing the game and actually having tools to use with that knowledge can be consider two different things.

Example I hunt a Lion I know I should bring a weapon and I know were he is at and how to kill him....and I know the best weapon for the job is a gun, but all I have are knifes.That shows yeah I know a lot about lions and how to kill them and were to find them but I don't have the tools to tackle this problem which is why I will stay away from the Lion until I have the tools to fight.

See now lets apply this to warframe...

I know about sorti and how to complete them.I know what to do and I know what I should bring....and I know the best tools for the job is X with X mods,but all I have are MK-1 series weapons and my 1st warframe I that I max rank 30.Now it gets interesting cause their are two ideas at play here

the 1st things to bring up is that the example you mention cannot happened because if theoretical player had learned a lot about the game he would not be attacking a challenge he know for.

The 1st idea is that a player feels like trying something out to see if he can handle it which is fine and all that means he is at least trying to do something

the 2nd one is basically this .....Now I clearly don't have the tools to tackle this problem but because I can be carried and no one can do anything against it cause is allowed I am gonna let myself be carried.

See the difference here

 

 

Okay, I didn't think about having proper gear, as most of this post and other arguments I see involving similar situations mainly have to do with how well a player knows the game, so you got me there. Though I'm not quite sure what the right amount of hours would be then, if we're taking into account gear and knowledge.

It would be better for DE to have another ranking system in place that takes into account player stats (Hours played, MR, Current build equipped, Revives, Missions Completed/Failed, and so on) and adds them up and ranks them.

[Xaero]

4 minutes ago, Educated_Beast said:

I'm going to have to agree that an MR lock is needed for pugs.  MR may not be the best measurement tool and there may be some good low level MR players, but they are few and far between.  I see guys wanting to use shield distrupt with mag in group, refuse to take off energy syphon when corrosive much better choice, bad weapons, mods, etc. 

 

I've gotten to the point where I will revive once, maybe more if its an endless mission, then they are on own.  I'm just tired of people not contributing and being ungrateful. 

 

If not MR, maybe go by hours played.  No sorties until log say 500 hours. 

Or maybe no public play allowed after you reach MR 12. You are such a good and experienced player now, do it solo.

[onieyez]

5 minutes ago, Educated_Beast said:

 

If not MR, maybe go by hours played.  No sorties until log say 500 hours. 

500 hours is way too much

[Xekrin]

Well until the devs decide upon a better Mastery system that reflects experience and skill, just do what I do, especially for missions like Draco or Sorties.

Go into every mission geared up and ready to not only carry the team, but strive to do so.  As you play, decide if you are getting a sense of whether the others know what they are doing, if they don't, 2 choices, continue on or bail on them.  It may sound cruel or wrong, but it isn't your fault and its a PUG, if they were expecting to be carried they should do so with someone willing to carry.

It is much easier to accept failure when its on your terms.  If I believe a sortie mission is going to fail or just going nowhere due to other players, I abort and try again.  Yes, that can be time consuming, and if you time is limited, you have to decide how best to handle it.  But honestly there are just some things we cannot control, and the developers have yet to setup a proper system for.  

But, as others have and are going to suggest, if you don't like having to carry in PUGs, use recruit chat, use your clan/alliance or find like minded souls (through said channels) to befriend and play with daily.  You can even use the forums.

 

[ShinoKami007]

MR requirement should not be a thing for sorties

...as clan/alliance mates beginning in the game should be able to try and see what end-game is, as long as they are carried by players that are aware

also, PUG should try and matchmaking management to do and bring together equivalent MR for a given cell/squad

Edited April 7, 2016 by ShinoKami007
Hilighted word added

[TrinityPrime]

What if the first sortie of the day was scaled for and set to solo only as the prerequisite? Would that be effective to show the players can handle at least some of the difficulty on their own?  

Hmm, maybe a solo initial set of scaled quest missions to perm unlock all the sorties?

[calmchaos]

11 minutes ago, fatpig84 said:

But only on how many Primed mods you max is the only fair indicator.
R10 rare and common / uncommon all can be maxed as someone as low as MR4

That's still not a fair indicator. I can solo sorties just fine without a single maxed primed mod. Primed mods aren't necessary at all for sortie level enemies. All it takes is the right mods, whether they're primed or not is just a bonus.

Note that I solo most sorties without a maxed Blind Rage (R9), Transient Fortitude (R7), Vitality (R6 I think?), Redirection (R7), Serration (R6), or Hornet Strike (R4). Granted I only use my secondary for status proccing (except Kulstar - god I love that gun), so damage isn't a concern there. But I survive and kill things just fine. If you need primed mods to be effective in sorties, then there's an entirely different issue going on.

-----

 

Conclave is also a poor indicator. Only one of my frames has over 1,000 conclave, and it's a frame I never use for sorties. Ever.

As well as time played. I've only logged ~360hrs last I checked, but sorties are rarely all that difficult. Even the Vay Hek one wasn't really an issue, and I did it in a party of three with a Mirage that refused to let me use my Slowva's ult at all, regardless of whether his face cover was open or not. Even in flying turkey form. (That moment when your lower MR friend wants a challenge.)

So long as I'm still able to carry my lower MR friends through sorties using Invite Only/Friends Only, any changes won't bother me. However, you really shouldn't use the Public option unless you're either able to solo it or ready to accept random results. If you want a specific result in sorties, then recruit your own party. Otherwise expect a hard time. Because then you'll never be disappointed.

[Educated_Beast]

27 minutes ago, -Ksaero- said:

Really? You don't wanna help newbies? Why else would an experienced player set public MM in sortie? Perhaps because you are not good enough and need to be dragged yourself.

 

24 minutes ago, -Ksaero- said:

Or maybe no public play allowed after you reach MR 12. You are such a good and experienced player now, do it solo.

 

Not unless I'm asked.  Joining a match when your useless is rude.  Expecting free items is rude.  There are many other things to do in the game, they should come back when ready.  Expecting a carry versus asking for a carry are two very different things.  Maybe if your super elite self played some pugs instead of being a solo elitist you would realize that MR is actually a pretty good measuring tool.  Sure there are some exceptions, but those exceptions will not be low MR for long.  I also just do not see the exceptions everyone is talking about.  Most players < MR8 are not ready for sorties. 

 

I play pugs daily because I want a fast match without dealing with recruiting.  If no one shows up, I do alone.  Certain missions are better alone anyway (especially spy), but most missions are better with 4 players because you get more focus with more players (well, when everyone is contributing).  But you being a super elite player, I'm sure you know this already. 

 

MR4 is fine in private; they can ask for the carry.  But nothing you have said is even remotely convincing and not even witty enough to be insulting.  OP is right, Less than MR 8 should be kept out of public sorties. 

 

 

4 minutes ago, KnotOfMetal said:

What if the first sortie of the day was scaled for and set to solo only as the prerequisite? Would that be effective to show the players can handle at least some of the difficulty on their own?  

Hmm, maybe a solo initial set of scaled quest missions to perm unlock all the sorties?

Like mastery tests...   Maybe 8 of them is the right number :)

 

 

Edited April 3, 2016 by Educated_Beast

[Leavith]

25 minutes ago, -Ksaero- said:

Or maybe no public play allowed after you reach MR 12. You are such a good and experienced player now, do it solo.

Now why do you say that?

In honestly speaking this is co-op game so it make sense that people want to play with one another or with it a least someone.They just hope if they play with someone they can carry themselves. Now do it solo still makes no sense after all the missions are not designed for solo played but can be done solo.

Just throwing this out their out of experience most fun game matches I played were when everyone on the team could carry themselves and could do more.

Because everyone could just chat and talk about what is going on whatever things they want to, and that is something that rarely happens because people are expected to be carried.

Their is definitely something wrong when 1/4 or 2/4 of the team comes into a public match expecting to be carried.

People may say then play solo/private because you can't change that...well you can Master rank all mission with legitimate rank. When this happens recruit channel will be people asking to be carried not people asking for a decent squad. And most teams will have people who at least have the tools to play legitimately.

[Kokolalala]

Let us be honest, MR below 8 are much more likely to have not accumulated much experience in the game than someone who is MR 21. Yes, there is a small group of players who don't care to rank their MR for whatever reasons, but the likelihood of finding someone MR 21 and bad is a lot less common than an MR 5 carrying a team. Not to say it can't happen, but again, very uncommon.

MR 12+ is more of a grey area where players are generally on the same boat, some a bit higher and some a bit lower in experience. At that point it doesn't matter very much because most players would have most if not all the frames, forma'd gear, and maxed/nearly maxed mods.

We can't exactly tell how experienced a player can be at first glance, maybe we won't ever, however, as I see both sides of the argument, I think that the current system works for now. If anything, there could be a compromise such as PUG runs limit players to be MR 8+, but being invited on private or friends only to a squad allows any MR. Allowing friends to still play together and allow others not to feel burdened by newer players.

TL;DR: I don't know, man. I just don't know.

Edited April 3, 2016 by Viran

[-S-O-Yetili]

Mastery Rank is a joke since Draco. People can reach Mastery 12+ and higher in a few weeks. Even Mastery 15 and more is possible in a month. I saw people with Mastery 14 who lack even basic mods like split chamber. An increase of the minimum Mastery Rank would not stop such people.

Therefore it's difficult to find a solution to the problem. Conclave rating could be the solution, but it could also seriously hinder. Some weapons have a very low rating, although they're very useful in some specific situations.

[Leavith]

4 minutes ago, Viran said:

Let us be honest, MR below 8 are much more likely to have not accumulated much experience in the game than someone who is MR 21. Yes, there is a small group of players who don't care to rank their MR for whatever reasons, but the likelihood of finding someone MR 21 and bad is a lot less common than an MR 5 carrying a team. Not to say it can't happen, but again, very uncommon.

MR 12+ is more of a grey area where players are generally on the same boat, some a bit higher and some a bit lower in experience. At that point it doesn't matter very much because most players would have most if not all the frames, forma'd gear, and maxed/nearly maxed mods.

We can't exactly tell how experienced a player can be at first glance, maybe we won't ever, however, as I see both sides of the argument, I think that the current system works for now. If anything, there could be a compromise such as PUG runs limit players to be MR 8+, but being invited to a squad allows any MR. Allowing friends to still play together and allow others not to feel burdened by newer players.

TL;DR: I don't know, man. I just don't know.

I like that and again you mention people who can fight at master low rank..which I refer to them as the 1% ... well the fact being that 1% that chooses not to mastery rank up can easily choose to go up the ranks they aren't limited to that mastery rank because of the game but by choice.

Edited April 3, 2016 by Leavith