Saryn's DPS

[BobRooney_]

have to say i like this mans saryn vs xcal and rhino vs nezha videos

[ff00005-EGT-]

Click the link and try that with Excal. Use Saryn the way she is supposed to be used, not the old way!

http://imgur.com/kobqOxX

To be honest I did not read the 8 pages, just what OP wrote plus I watched the video, so I just throw this post in randomly.

[IfritKajiTora]

On 4.04.2016 at 5:05 AM, Nariala said:

Brozime has a habit of going "I don't understand this, so I built it wrong and here are my thoughts why the frame is bad at everything" 

 

On 4.04.2016 at 5:13 AM, Tesseract7777 said:

Out of curiosity I skipped through to see what the Saryn build was. 

WTF........... 

 

@Nariala He builded her good to tests, full dmg and full duration to make miasma as good as possible. Because Viral+Toxin and then Miasma should do the most of damage. Range doesnt care to a single target. He maded a combo which should be a realy huge DPS, and its not, its not working as it should. People are using cheap tactics of Spores and toxin weapons, to make tick with every hit, and thats makes A LOT MORE DPS than her combo, which should not have the place, because DE didn't realized that this tactic will be a lot better. He put GOOD BUILD to tests, not to play with it. And that video just shows that her Combo isnt that good as it should be, and Excalibur is OP, which I knowed from the start of his rework, just instant slide attack to blind enemeis which they can't hurt you because they are blinded and your cuts deals 4x damage. With my 115% power strength build and maxed melee weapon and make 24k damage per hit. This is ridiculous. Steve mention something about nerfing damage mods, so I hope it will repair OP excalibur.

Even if Viral+Toxin and fast AoE weapon as Hikou Prime makes her powerfull, it means that Miasma and third ability is useless and they need rework again. DE said that they don't want to make one weapon to be good with that Frame, just like with excalibur it was and those syndiacate skana mod, they nerfed it to not push people to use only Skana with that mod for excalibur. The same point is here, Sarny is the best with Hikou Prime and it need to change.

@Tesseract7777 Yeah you should not skip that. He was talking about that he maded that build only for DPS, damage and Duration to test/show how Spores+toxin and Miasma combo will do damage, which should be her ultimate damage combo. Range doesnt care when he test damage on one enemy. This combo is weak. He said that this build WON'T WORK in normal gameplay, he just maded it for test, nothing more.

Edited April 5, 2016 by IfritKajiTora

[IfritKajiTora]

24 minutes ago, ff00005 said:

Click the link and try that with Excal. Use Saryn the way she is supposed to be used, not the old way!

http://imgur.com/kobqOxX

So you use Overextended cast spores and ignis have toxin damage, it spreads realy fast dealing a lot of DPS?

[ThatOddDeer]

47 minutes ago, (PS4)CoolD2108 said:

But again, proove me wrong. I may have overlooked it. 

• Only one spore on the infected enemy can transfer Toxin damage until that enemy becomes damaged by a new  Toxin proc

It's this line. The way toxic lash and spore interact is causing a lot of confusion. You inflict the toxin proc and spread a spore in the same instance, the same swing.

This causes every target to get an enhanced spore that can't spread toxin. If you apply another toxin proc with toxic lash, whether to the first enemy or an enemy with the exhausted but enhanced spore you still only spread 1 proc per spore and all the nearby enemies still only have 1 spreadable toxin proc. Instead of spreading a whole bunch of procs you can only ever have 1 toxin proc bouncing around with a bunch of exhausted but enhanced spores. Molt gets around this by being a forced toxin proc AoE but that's super energy intenstive

 

 

Edited April 5, 2016 by ThatOddDeer

[ff00005-EGT-]

1 hour ago, IfritKajiTora said:

So you use Overextended cast spores and ignis have toxin damage, it spreads realy fast dealing a lot of DPS?

I did not use anything but melee past minute 30, I used 235 range, 194 Strength and something around 140 duration (my build changed meanwhile). Melee "only" because of Naramon's invisibility (enemies lvl 600 deal a lot of damage), dual ichor on crit and corrosive status (you can mod the corrosive only, thats cool; weeping wounds, body count and blood rush did the job) and then I just used spores whenever needed and kept running toxic lash.

The clue about that is, that toxic lash spreads toxin procs that tick for the damage with which you inflicted them, then pops a spore and therefore spreads the toxin damage of for example 6000 damage you inflicted to all surrounding enemies. And those procs stack, so you add that up to a lethal pile of procs.

Attack speed and corrosive procs from ichor strip enemies off their armor and voila, there you have a massacre!

 

EDIT: I just see the post above me states completely different from what I experienced. Maybe it was not working as intended, but somehow I got dozens of toxin procs to spread. I was a bit confused about this myself.

Edited April 5, 2016 by ff00005

[ThatOddDeer]

14 minutes ago, ff00005 said:

I did not use anything but melee past minute 30, I used 235 range, 194 Strength and something around 140 duration (my build changed meanwhile). Melee "only" because of Naramon's invisibility (enemies lvl 600 deal a lot of damage), dual ichor on crit and corrosive status (you can mod the corrosive only, thats cool; weeping wounds, body count and blood rush did the job) and then I just used spores whenever needed and kept running toxic lash.

The clue about that is, that toxic lash spreads toxin procs that tick for the damage with which you inflicted them, then pops a spore and therefore spreads the toxin damage of for example 6000 damage you inflicted to all surrounding enemies. And those procs stack, so you add that up to a lethal pile of procs.

Attack speed and corrosive procs from ichor strip enemies off their armor and voila, there you have a massacre!

 

EDIT: I just see the post above me states completely different from what I experienced. Maybe it was not working as intended, but somehow I got dozens of toxin procs to spread. I was a bit confused about this myself.

Same build as me. but here's an explnation of how procs work with spore.

imagine enemy A-D

You hit enemy A with spores and then toxic lash, you inflicted them with toxin proc and spread a spore. Enemies B, C an D now have 3 spores each, viral and toxin proc. But Those are all exhausted spores. After 3 hits enemy A has no more spores and enemy B C and D each have 1 12.5% toxin proc and 3 spores from enemy A that have 12.5% increased base damage. However all those spores are innert to the toxin proc from enemy A and you can't spread more spores to them without popping one. So you can never have more than 1 proc at 12.5% of the toxin damage you inflicted on enemy, which is anywhere from 30-80%~ of your melee hit depending on power strength. If you continue this chain and pop 3 spores on enemy B then enemy C and D don't get any more spores but Enemy A can have 3 spores with 12.5% increased base damage of spore and a 12.5% toxin proc from toxic lash. If you juggle this properly you can get 12.5% toxin on every enemy and a slowly stacking 12.5% of 20 damage per spore. So for every spore you pop from enemy to enenmy each spore does 2.5 more damage, 12.5% of 20. A very slow and weak scaling, at least according to the wiki on how spore works with toxic lash

Edited April 5, 2016 by ThatOddDeer

[IfritKajiTora]

17 minutes ago, ff00005 said:

because of Naramon's invisibility

Wow, but you know that doesnt count -_-. Naramon invisibility is OP the same as Zenurik energy regen with high efficiency warframe and it will be nerfed soon. I can go every frame to 6 hours, with it.

[RealPandemonium]

4 hours ago, Epsik-kun said:

>Not using True Steel on Ichors
>Not realising that proc chance has diminishing returns
>Not using Ichors' OP ground finisher
>Not understanding the absurd difference between x4+ Nikana and x4+ Ichors.

Right.

It would serve the thread much better if you broke down every component of why the Ichors are more effective instead of greenposting condescendingly.  What could have been an informative and persuasive post amounted to little more than emotional masturbation on your part. 

[ff00005-EGT-]

1 hour ago, IfritKajiTora said:

Wow, but you know that doesnt count -_-. Naramon invisibility is OP the same as Zenurik energy regen with high efficiency warframe and it will be nerfed soon. I can go every frame to 6 hours, with it.

I use it as a tool to have the limiting factor be the damage I can deal, not the life I have.

Have Naramon, use any frame, only use melee and not his abilities: Always the same result.

Now make use of abilities and see when the damage falls off. Any frame + scindo in T3 survival works between 60 and 70 minutes, that boosted with Saryns abilities went up to 150 minutes.

See naramon as a tool to cut away one factor and be able to compare damage outputs

[(PSN)CoolD2108]

59 minutes ago, ThatOddDeer said:

• Only one spore on the infected enemy can transfer Toxin damage until that enemy becomes damaged by a new  Toxin proc

It's this line. The way toxic lash and spore interact is causing a lot of confusion. You inflict the toxin proc and spread a spore in the same instance, the same swing.

This causes every target to get an enhanced spore that can't spread toxin. If you apply another toxin proc with toxic lash, whether to the first enemy or an enemy with the exhausted but enhanced spore you still only spread 1 proc per spore and all the nearby enemies still only have 1 spreadable toxin proc. Instead of spreading a whole bunch of procs you can only ever have 1 toxin proc bouncing around with a bunch of exhausted but enhanced spores. Molt gets around this by being a forced toxin proc AoE but that's super energy intenstive

 

 

If multiple toxic procs are damaging an infected enemy, the initial base damage that triggered each individual proc will be combined when a spore's burst damage is calculated.

 

Should apply to the spread poison as well as the burst seems to be the base for the spread.

This only states that one spore per enemy at a time is able to spread as each spore has its individual timer and spread. Toxin from another spore= litteraly another poison procc to reset the spore when shooting multiple enemys at once.

 

[ThatOddDeer]

1 minute ago, (PS4)CoolD2108 said:

If multiple toxic procs are damaging an infected enemy, the initial base damage that triggered each individual proc will be combined when a spore's burst damage is calculated.

 

Should apply to the spread poison as well as the burst seems to be the base for the spread.

This only states that one spore per enemy at a time is able to spread as each spore has its individual timer and spread. Toxin from another spore= litteraly another poison procc to reset the spore when shooting multiple enemys at once.

 

read the response to the person with the gersemi icon. It better explains my point. Because spore cap on enemies can happen

[(PSN)CoolD2108]

27 minutes ago, ThatOddDeer said:

read the response to the person with the gersemi icon. It better explains my point. Because spore cap on enemies can happen

Spore cap isn't in conflict with anything, especially when radial sources such as miasama, molt and the torid come into play.

Miasama would clear 1spore off each enemy and make room for one instance if poison and another spore. Torid clouds would completely remove spores from enemys, so would molt.

But good point as this is not defined. Thers 2 possibilitys to this...eather

*spores ignore enemys that have reached the maximum spore capacity

Or

*Spores refresh and override one spore when thers no possibility to spread further, what would still apply the poison to them.

 

I am at work atm, could someone test this? 

[ThatOddDeer]

5 minutes ago, (PS4)CoolD2108 said:

Spore cap isn't in conflict with anything, especially when radial sources such as miasama, molt and the torid come into play.

Miasama would clear 1spore off each enemy and make room for one instance if poison and another spore. Torid clouds would completely remove spores from enemys, so would molt.

But good point as this is not defined. Thers 2 possibilitys to this...eather

*spores ignore enemys that have reached the maximum spore capacity

Or

*Spores refresh and override one spore when thers no possibility to spread further, what would still apply the poison to them.

 

I am at work atm, could someone test this? 

Just tested in simulacrum, spores do not overide previous spores. You can only have 3 unless you repeatedly cast spore on a single enemy or molt, which seems to be the exception. 

Also building torid for toxin is horrible because you'll do next to nothing against the meaningful units regardless of how well they buff spore.

Edited April 5, 2016 by ThatOddDeer

[(PSN)CoolD2108]

15 minutes ago, ThatOddDeer said:

Just tested in simulacrum, spores do not overide previous spores. You can only have 3 unless you repeatedly cast spore on a single enemy or molt, which seems to be the exception. 

Also building torid for toxin is horrible because you'll do next to nothing against the meaningful units regardless of how well they buff spore.

Kinda dissapointing. Doesn't contribute anything but the raw spore damage but still.

 

I tend to use melee offhand btw, just for the slide attacks and base combos, so the torid wouldn't rly mess with anything while going melee with lash, would it? 

Similar performance, sh*tload extra poison share which scales off melee AND the torid proccs.

Exceptional damage in short.

Edited April 5, 2016 by (PS4)CoolD2108

[ThatOddDeer]

5 minutes ago, (PS4)CoolD2108 said:

Kinda dissapointing. Doesn't contribute anything but the raw spore damage but still.

 

I tend to use melee offhand btw, just for the slide attacks and base combos, so the torid wouldn't rly mess with anything while going melee with lash, would it? 

Similar performance, sh*tload extra poison share.

Actually a way worse performance for melee. You get a reduced effect from the combo counter and you don't get any stance multipliers. But you do you, if you feel like being outclassed by superior builds for the sake of running a pure toxin torid more power to you. Just please don't go saying things about saryn that aren't true.

[(PSN)CoolD2108]

24 minutes ago, ThatOddDeer said:

Actually a way worse performance for melee. You get a reduced effect from the combo counter and you don't get any stance multipliers. But you do you, if you feel like being outclassed by superior builds for the sake of running a pure toxin torid more power to you. Just please don't go saying things about saryn that aren't true.

^^ oh rly, thers been multiple discussions since the release of body count that have prooven that stance multipliers do not contribute multiplicative to crits, a stance multiplier should only add slight damage to the endresult. And what reduced effect are you talking about? That the counter doesn't show doesn't mean that he isn't there. Evry offhand melee strike adds to it in the background. Not to mention that thers allmost no mentionable multipliers on dual sword stances.

 

Even then: reflecting scaling damage for ...what was our example? 90%->882% definitly >>>>> 150% stance multiplier.

 

What of the recent statements did you even proove wrong?

Poison? Scales, reflects, resets

Spore limit? Resets as you play. Litteraly. With evry action that spreads except for lash, which acts as a base to set potent poison, still destroys one spore per hit which is able to catch poison for the scaling.

I am the one saying things about saryn that aren't true? Rly? >Seriously?<

Ain't you the one that makes her worse as she is?

 

Edited April 5, 2016 by (PS4)CoolD2108

[ThatOddDeer]

2 minutes ago, (PS4)CoolD2108 said:

^^ oh rly, thers been multiple discussions since the release of body count that have prooven that stance multipliers do not contribute multiplicative to crits, a stance multiplier should only add slight damage to the endresult. And what reduced effect are you talking about? That the counter doesn't show doesn't mean that he isn't there. Evry offhand melee strike adds to it in the background. Not to mention that thers allmost no mentionable multipliers on dual sword stances.

 

Even then: reflecting scaling damage for ...what was our example? 90%->882% definitly >>>>> 150% stance multiplier.

 

What of the recent statements did you even proove wrong?

Poison? Scales, reflects, resets

Spore limit? Resets as you play. Litteraly. With evry action that spreads except for lash, which acts as a base to set potent poison.

I am the one saying things about saryn that aren't true? Rly? >Seriously?<

 

Quick melee doesn't have multipliers is what I meant. And both dual sword stances have meaningful multipliers when equipped. Also stances do affect crits otherwise the damage wouldn't be nearly as high for cleaving whirlwind compared to say blind justice. The difference between them matches up according to stance modifiers. You honestly don't make much sense and the way you write is barely understandable in the first place. I'm done trying to decipher this chicken scratch and refute it with video proof while you keep saying things without proving it.

[Ivan_Rid]

13 minutes ago, (PS4)CoolD2108 said:

Kinda dissapointing. Doesn't contribute anything but the raw spore damage but still.

 

I tend to use melee offhand btw, just for the slide attacks and base combos, so the torid wouldn't rly mess with anything while going melee with lash, would it? 

Similar performance, sh*tload extra poison share which scales off melee AND the torid proccs.

Exceptional damage in short.

Depends on weapon, I find whips quick melee to be more useful than their awkward combos and wasted switch up time. Same for polearms, those have annoying stagger in both their stances.

Torid is too unwieldy for me, cant hit anything with Heavy Caliber and its barrel is pointing in weird direction while you cast Spores.

[(PSN)CoolD2108]

29 minutes ago, Ivan_Rid said:

Depends on weapon, I find whips quick melee to be more useful than their awkward combos and wasted switch up time. Same for polearms, those have annoying stagger in both their stances.

Torid is too unwieldy for me, cant hit anything with Heavy Caliber and its barrel is pointing in weird direction while you cast Spores.

Tc on nikana and dual swords work pretty decent to my experience. And just setting a few clouds for the sake of scaling does the job rly. They stay for 10seconds and you're basicly successfull when a couple enemys pass them.

Another option would be, as mentioned earlyer, using hikous. 

*Faster

*10m splash radius

-Rely on permanent input

30 minutes ago, ThatOddDeer said:

Quick melee doesn't have multipliers is what I meant. And both dual sword stances have meaningful multipliers when equipped. Also stances do affect crits otherwise the damage wouldn't be nearly as high for cleaving whirlwind compared to say blind justice. The difference between them matches up according to stance modifiers. You honestly don't make much sense and the way you write is barely understandable in the first place. I'm done trying to decipher this chicken scratch and refute it with video proof while you keep saying things without proving it.

Again with this "prove" ... is "you're doing it wrong" rly that hard to understand?

You litteraly attacked unspored enemys for a while and spread ~10x 15% of your weapon damage 3 times at your peak. 

Even called the damage you did a result of the viral procc without ever popping spores around you.

May just be me but i wouldn't exactly call manipulated results proving anything.

You wanna prove me wrong? Make a vid where you do exactly as i tell you. Go in, feel free to start with miasama and get the invisibility going, then start setting torid bubbles and spore the enemys before you attack with lash on a build without overextendet but at least intensify and transient.

I'll admit defeat if you do and don't manage to perform great.

Edited April 5, 2016 by (PS4)CoolD2108

[RealPandemonium]

3 hours ago, ThatOddDeer said:

Same build as me. but here's an explnation of how procs work with spore.

imagine enemy A-D

You hit enemy A with spores and then toxic lash, you inflicted them with toxin proc and spread a spore. Enemies B, C an D now have 3 spores each, viral and toxin proc. But Those are all exhausted spores. After 3 hits enemy A has no more spores and enemy B C and D each have 1 12.5% toxin proc and 3 spores from enemy A that have 12.5% increased base damage. However all those spores are innert to the toxin proc from enemy A and you can't spread more spores to them without popping one. So you can never have more than 1 proc at 12.5% of the toxin damage you inflicted on enemy, which is anywhere from 30-80%~ of your melee hit depending on power strength. If you continue this chain and pop 3 spores on enemy B then enemy C and D don't get any more spores but Enemy A can have 3 spores with 12.5% increased base damage of spore and a 12.5% toxin proc from toxic lash. If you juggle this properly you can get 12.5% toxin on every enemy and a slowly stacking 12.5% of 20 damage per spore. So for every spore you pop from enemy to enenmy each spore does 2.5 more damage, 12.5% of 20. A very slow and weak scaling, at least according to the wiki on how spore works with toxic lash

I'm having trouble following your explanation, but here's how Spore spreading is supposed to work:

When an enemy has one or more Toxin dots on them and you pop one of their spores, the sum of the base damage that triggered the Toxin dots is added together and then multiplied by 0.25.  That amount is then added to the base damage of the Viral explosion of the spore pop, and the sum with the spore pop's base damage (25) is multiplied by power strength and then inflicted on enemies in range.  When the spore pop's damage has been enhanced by the spore-bearer's Toxin status, the spore pop will also inflict Toxin status based on the spore pop's total modified damage (despite dealing Viral damage.)  

 

Here's an example.  Note that I'm rounding all decimals to the nearest 1.

Say my Saryn has 200% power strength and is using a Skana with Pressure Point, Spoiled Strike, and North Wind installed.  

The Skana's base slide attack damage is 75, and after the boosts from the two mods, it reaches 240; after North Wind, its total damage reaches 456.

Toxic Lash takes 30% of a weapon's total damage and adds it as a separate Toxin damage instance on hit that always procs.  456 * .3 = 137 extra Toxin damage.  Each hit will also inflict a Toxin proc dealing 69 damage immediately, and 69 more every second for the next 10 seconds (would normally be 8 seconds but Saryn's passive increases the length of status conditions.)

So, I do two slide attacks on my enemy and inflict two Toxin dots.  Then I cast Spores on the enemy (adding 3 Spores to it) and bullet jump on the enemy to spread the spores.  

Even though the bullet jump will pop all 3 spores, only the "first" one popped will spread Toxin status (this is a built-in limitation.)  The spore burst damage is 25 base, and after power strength, will deal 50 damage per spore popped.  The other two spores will deal a combined total of 100 Viral damage, but the "first" spore (which carries the Toxin proc bonus) will deal more damage.  Each spore burst will add 3 new spores to enemies in range, but enemies can only have 3 spores on them in total, unless Saryn directly casts extra spores on them by using the power (this is another built-in limitation.)

The two slide attacks I did earlier added a total of 274 Toxin damage, and both instances procced because Toxic Lash's damage always procs.  Of that 274 damage, 25% is added to the base damage of the "first" spore.  274/4 + 25 = 94 base damage, which is then multiplied by power strength: 94 * 2.00 = 188.  The "first" spore deals 188 Viral damage when it bursts, and inflicts a Toxin dot whose ticks deal 94 damage.  Each spore pop will add 3 new spores to 

If I were to bullet jump the spores of one of the targets inflicted with that 94 damage dot, the "first" spore on that burst would deal (188/4 + 25)*2 = 144 Viral damage and inflict a Toxin dot whose ticks deal 72 damage.

Note that using Toxic Lash to pop spores will only pop one spore per swing instead of all of them, so there is no need to distinguish the "first" spore because only one spore is popped.  If the enemy is killed immediately by the hit that inflicts Toxic Lash's damage, it may die without spreading any bonus damage on its spore pop.  

 

This explanation is less than graceful in some spots, so let me know if you guys have any questions or suggestions on how to clarify it.  

 

Edited April 5, 2016 by RealPandemonium

[[DE]Danielle]

While many of these threads have popped up I'm hopeful we won't need to lock this if it keeps to a civil level of discussion. That said, all these "trolling" claims need to stop along with the personal attacks. Thank you! 

[ThatOddDeer]

 

Last video for now. Gas and gas was the weakest combination, the whole saryn gimick of bouncing spores around didn't do anything(and almost ate all of my fps from all the procs). It was the melee red crits that eventually helped take down the enemies. Gas + corrosive was similar. Only melee was carrying because of corrosive, I never saw any large ticks but the direct hits from the melee killed them very quick. Corrosive + corrosive killed things quickest because corrosive shredded all their damage reducing armor away and then I was left with viral spores and toxin procs doing okay damage as I slaughtered them with corrosive red crits.

Edited April 5, 2016 by ThatOddDeer

[-dicht.ThanksFrost-]

@ThatOddDeerDigging the dual arcane combo.

Reminds me of my Grace + Barrier Namaron build ^_^

Edited April 5, 2016 by Eureka.seveN

[ThatOddDeer]

20 minutes ago, Eureka.seveN said:

Digging the dual arcane combo.

Reminds me of my Grace + Barrier Namaron build ^_^

Just curious, where in the quoted post does he mention his arcanes?