Baro Ki'Teer should appear on all Relays at the same time

[Rekkou]

1 minute ago, akira_him said:

I think they misunderstood the whole thing

Baro is rewarding vets instead of punishing newbies

Yeah, i really don't get where this new players get the "newbie should be able to get everything" trends. I played only few new games recently, but the usual progression standard still applies to those games. Plenty of developers now even locked them behind DLC and DE only wants you to play their game. If you don't want to play their game then what's the point of getting a content specifically made so you play the game more?

[(PSN)True_Gamer_81]

12 hours ago, Caduzeus said:

Dear DE,

Once again Baro Ki'Teer is in Pluto and once again lower rank players are denied his goods for no real reason. I can not for the life of me understand why he could not just as well spawn on all Relays at the same time. Meeting Baro is not a testament of skill or some triumphant achievement. He is just a merchant who sometimes is available for everyone and other times is arbitrarily not.

Darvo is in all Relays. Clem is everywhere too. What is the excuse of Baro?

This denial of his services is not based on his available goods. He is not bringing any more 'end-game' loot when he is in Orcus than when he is in Larunda. The only thing this spawn mechanic causes is grief and elitism. His availability is discriminating in a bad way, since it has nothing to do with specific player's skills. The Relay is not some high-end raid or difficult mission, but a simple store. It is nothing more than a shop that we just walk into, but for some reason you have to be 'this tall' to enter.

You are already required to amass a considerable amount of ducats and credits to buy his goods, so there exists a very real entry fee to his show. He also spawns only twice a month, so there is a second hurdle of having to be online on a specific weekend. Why add further restrictions by limiting his availability by mastery rank? I can not think of any real positive reasons for this that outweigh the negatives. This simply hurts the overall experience of junior players and that is not good for the game or for business.

It is a real shame that a considerable number of players are denied these items that are often available only once or twice a year, simply because they have not ground through enough weapons and frames before that moment. Being Mastery Rank 6 and knowing that you just do not have the means to grind 2 levels in this short period of time makes you sad, for those Baro-items will be out of your reach for months, maybe even a year. And if we are not under MR8 ourselves, we all have plenty of disappointed clan-friends.

Now, are Baro's items a necessity to be able to play well or enjoy the game? Absolutely not. Anyone can do just fine without and I am not considering his actual goods here. I am just talking about the principal of arbitrarily dividing players this way that is nothing but unfair and unrewarding. Sure you can buy many of the items from higher rank players with platinum, but I think that just makes it worse: it makes the whole ordeal feel more or less like a racket. I would not be amazed to hear of people who considered this to be such an awful way of pushing platinum that they simply quit the game in disgust of the business-practices they observed. Remember that it does not matter what was DE's original intention; it is all about how this all makes the player feel.

I hope that DE will at some point take a look at this issue and maybe consider adjusting Baro's availability.

 

Yours,
  Caduzeus

If you cannot access the trader, increase your Mastery Ranking(MR 8+). The higher you progress in the game, the less content that is locked to you. The trader Baro Ti`Keer is Optional and brings rare mods, weapons, and cosmetic things otherwise unattainable. Instead of complaining, build new weapons and Warframes and max their levels. Ranking up is easy sir. I`m not trying to talk down to you at all, just like any MMO continue to grind levels and good luck!

[Vox_Preliator]

"Baro, I want to give you money, let me give you money."

All I can say is thank goodness he didn't bring something really valuable, like Body Count or some Primed mods, because I could easily afford those but wouldn't be able to buy them because REASONS. 

Using "progression" as an argument is a joke, because progression based on Mastery is already a joke, and pretending it isn't already broken into a billion pieces is silly.  Completing the entire Starchart only gives a total of about 14K according to the wiki, and rank eight requires over ten times that.  Oh yeah, I've conquered every part of every planet in the solar system and proved proficient in everything but Sorties and T4 Towers, but that means even less than holding onto five different weapons (that don't even need to be fired) for a fairly short time.  The fact that it's "easy" does NOT excuse the fact that it's dumb.

Edited April 24, 2016 by Vox_Preliator

[Miszt]

I don't see any problems with the current systems. People who are mad that they can't get to pluto usually don't have any ducats to spent anyway.

 

[Troll_Logic]

1 hour ago, Vox_Preliator said:

Completing the entire Starchart only gives a total of about 14K according to the wiki, and rank eight requires over ten times that.  

I'll let you in on a little secret.  You don't finish the star chart for exp.  You finish the star chart so you can go anywhere on the star chart.  Coincidentally, that's what the OP is complaining about.  Not being able to go everywhere.

 

Finish the star chart.

[Caduzeus]

3 hours ago, Troll_Logic said:

I'll let you in on a little secret.  You don't finish the star chart for exp.  You finish the star chart so you can go anywhere on the star chart.  Coincidentally, that's what the OP is complaining about.  Not being able to go everywhere.

The OP is not complaining about "not being able to go everywhere". Of course a new player should not be able to go anywhere simply by signing in. What would be the point of that and more importantly, what has that got to do with the issue I am raising? The question I am raising is simply the availability of Baro Ki'Teer to willing and paying customers and the arbitrary placement of his shop, not the state of the game's general progression.

 

5 hours ago, TrickshotMcGee said:

Baro isn't something that should be exclusive. "New players should spend plat from prime parts for slots etc" is a BS excuse for "New players shouldn't access him because they're not good enough". The thing is- accessing him can help help them get good enough. If a newbie spends three days farming T1 missions, they're not necessarily ready for higher level content. They may not have mods good enough to compete or damage enemies enough to actually DO anything, let alone progress to Pluto. As a result, they'd have an excess of parts turned into ducats because the trade market is scary as all hell.

Yes, exactly this. New players may not be able to purchase all of Baro's items, but they may have saved enough to buy some items. They wait for Baro just as much as the veterans do, so why should they not have the joy of buying things they can afford? If Baro brings gear that can be used by veterans and beginners alike, he should spawn sensibly on all Relays.

Plus you are right: trading is very scary at first.

 

5 hours ago, Rekkou said:

If you want X you need to go to Y places in game, is a common and acceptable standard in plenty of games. Plenty of full paid single player game lock strongest weapons until last room where you fight the final boss. Plenty of multiplayer games locks weapon that isn't even stronger than your basic weapon until you progress. I never get why people suddenly expect everything should be different in warframe. So pardon me if i never get the "newbie is punished for not being able to get everything right away" arguments.

 

The issue with this conversation seems to be the unwillingness of some players to admit that healthy critique of the game's certain aspects might lead to good things. I know that there always and forever exists a vocal segment in every community that raises their voice against any and all changes, because "there be dragons beyond yonder seas". It is easy to dismiss the whole issue and just raise a straw-man like the above argument to attempt a ridicule of the conversation. "Hitler was a vegetarian too, so how's your broccoli tasting now, hm? Like holocaust, I tell you. You are dining like a mass murderer."

It is natural for us humans to be defensive when it comes to something that we hold dear or something that makes us feel even a little bit special. It is only natural to say that: "Hey, I swam those waters and I made it, so everyone else should too, if they want to be 'worthy' of these things". It comes to us so easy it is like breathing. We so easily think that everyone challenging the current state of things is just being whiny or mean. If someone proposes a change, we think we might lose some of those things that we cherish. That thought is simply a trap, since the fears hardly ever actually realize if the change comes to be. We can keep the things we love and have new things as well, however bizarre that sounds to some.

At the same time I am happy to see that there also exists a vocal segment in the Warframe community that is not afraid to look at the bigger picture. Baro may be one of the minor issues of this game, but he is still a major source of grief and thus an issue. His spawning does not 'feel' right, rewarding or fair, so there is something wrong there.

My question to all of you who oppose Baro spawning on all relays is this: what exactly would you personally lose, if he spawned everywhere? 

[Rekkou]

8 minutes ago, Caduzeus said:

-snip-

First, stop that, what you did here is just simply trying to antagonize people and play victim to get what you want.  Second, it won't be us who lose something, it'll be you. And that is the experience of playing the game and sense of achievement after that.  What you want is already available and DE just want you to play the game they made with hardwork first. If that's really too much for you, if you didn't really care about playing their game, then no matter what you get at the end, it won't make you feel any different.

[(PSN)Backdoorman71]

There can be only one ... Baro.

 

[viperveteran]

I remember the time when I was low MR and didn't have access to Pluto. I spent much of my time unlocking nodes to get to the Orcus relay unlocked and then spent time levelling up my MR in order to enter, the week after I unlocked it Baro appeared there lol.

The progression argument is a valid one and the reason for that is ultimately down to the fact that aside from Draco, the excavation missions and some Dark sector missions there isn't really much to do outside of the void and the derelict, excluding raids of course. Things like having Baro on higher MR relays, alerts in higher planets gives players something to work towards and to work through.

It would be more convenient for him to show up at all relays but it isn't necessary as the feed that we have on the liset could be updated to tell us where he is every fortnight.

[Caduzeus]

26 minutes ago, Rekkou said:

First, stop that, what you did here is just simply trying to antagonize people and play victim to get what you want.  Second, it won't be us who lose something, it'll be you. And that is the experience of playing the game and sense of achievement after that.  What you want is already available and DE just want you to play the game they made with hardwork first. If that's really too much for you, if you didn't really care about playing their game, then no matter what you get at the end, it won't make you feel any different.

Why are you so concerned about my sense of achievement? It should be none of your business, Rekkou. I am simply asking: what would you personally lose, if Baro spawned on all Relays?

[EvilChaosKnight]

First of all, +1 to OP. And with this out of the way...

LOL people are really calling "Grab a bunch of junk and lvl it to 30" progression? Really now?

I'm almost MR22. I don't think there was one time when when getting higher mastery felt like any sort of improvement. Let's face it, current MR is just a mix of a boring grindwall and e-pen enlarger.

[Rekkou]

1 minute ago, Caduzeus said:

Why are you so concerned about my sense of achievement? It should be none of your business, Rekkou. I am simply asking: what would you personally lose, if Baro spawned on all Relays?

A better community who actually enjoys the game instead of quickly burned out players who are here just for instant gratification.

[Caduzeus]

26 minutes ago, Rekkou said:

A better community who actually enjoys the game instead of quickly burned out players who are here just for instant gratification.

Look, we can just as well agree to disagree, since I am not sure if we are on the same page about the issue here. I am asking if Baro's spawning could be improved to include more paying customers and give junior players a chance to purchase his goods that are of use for everyone, while you are drawing conclusions like "Change Baro -> kill the enjoyment".

I am with you in that the game has way too little healthy progression. I would like to see the system changed drastically to bring about more rewarding progression. However, raising arbitrary walls on random is not the same to me as building interesting challenges. My opinion is that Baro has unnecessary walls built around him that hurt the game. I believe you think the system is fine, since it can be argued that it encourages players to grind through the walls and potentially become better players while at it. I can respect that view and in an ideal world it would be just so, but the game and most of the players are not that ideal.

If Baro suddenly spawned on Larunda and Orcus at the same time, what would that do to the community? Would it kill the game? Would veterans all go "F this, no more of this BS for me thx"?

Or would practically everyone be like "Oh, he spawned on both places", and never even cared that he used to spawn on random.

[Rekkou]

20 minutes ago, Caduzeus said:

Look, we can just as well agree to disagree, since I am not sure if we are on the same page about the issue here. I am asking if Baro's spawning could be improved to include more paying customers and give junior players a chance to purchase his goods that are of use for everyone, while you are drawing conclusions like "Change Baro -> kill the enjoyment".

I am with you in that the game has way too little healthy progression. I would like to see the system changed drastically to bring about more rewarding progression. However, raising arbitrary walls on random is not the same to me as building interesting challenges. My opinion is that Baro has unnecessary walls built around him that hurt the game. I believe you think the system is fine, since it can be argued that it encourages players to grind through the walls and potentially become better players while at it. I can respect that view and in an ideal world it would be just so, but the game and most of the players are not that ideal.

If Baro suddenly spawned on Larunda and Orcus at the same time, what would that do to the community? Would it kill the game? Would veterans all go "F this, no more of this BS for me thx"?

Or would practically everyone be like "Oh, he spawned on both places", and never even cared that he used to spawn on random.

 

Again, not about us, it's about new players who will become the veterans in the future. And we can see the problem here, you only look at the moment. You see a wall and what you did is just stop and demanding other people to bring it down. You refuse to see what you could've become if you climb that wall, you refuse to see what you could've seen if you walk the long way around the wall. We both will eventually got to the other side of the wall, but only one of us arrive as different kind of player.

[EvilChaosKnight]

1 minute ago, Rekkou said:

 

Again, not about us, it's about new players who will become the veterans in the future. And we can see the problem here, you only look at the moment. You see a wall and what you did is just stop and demanding other people to bring it down. You refuse to see what you could've become if you climb that wall, you refuse to see what you could've seen if you walk the long way around the wall. We both will eventually got to the other side of the wall, but only one of us arrive as different kind of player.

What will you become if you "climb that wall"? If MR represented skill or could be earned in any meaningful way, then yes. It would make sense.

But MR right now just requires you to lvl a bunch of things, most of which you won't even like or plan on using later on (hi MK1 Furis). Sure, Draco is always an answer, but, uh, shouldn't such things be discouraged promoting more active fun gameplay instead? Well, getting TO Draco might look like an achievement, until you look a bit closer at the game you play and find the recruitment chat.

You keep defending this system but I am yet to hear what MR gives to a player in it's current state. Besides the e-pen of course. I have a MR15 friend. He played for as long as I did. He's as good as I am. He has mods and multi-forma builds like I do. Why is he 15? Because he doesn't want to level up junk and throw it away. And THAT is the only way to climb MR atm.

Oh and let's talk about what Baro has to offer which is oh-so-valuable than it's worth a lock behind a wall. So which of the following is worth locking behind MR8? So that new player won't be "overpowered" by getting them.

Fashion frame? Don't be silly, if anything new people should have easier access to these so they'll be stimulated to buy plat cosmetics in the future instead of getting used to playing as Mr. Plain McBland.

Prisma Weapons? Well, they are kinda good but there's plenty of better options. Most of them are better than Karak I guess?

Primed mods? Eh, they don't really need them, nor can they level them at any reasonable rate. After all, it's not the mod itself but leveling of it which counts the most so I see no benefit or harm from them getting these.

Assassin bacons. Kinda useless to them IMO.

Boosters? Kinda expensive considering the limited ducats a newbie would have. So useless.

 

TL;DR: MR as we have it is useless, Baro has nothing worth locking behind a wall so I don't see why MR-lock for accessing him is even a thing.

[akira_him]

1 minute ago, EvilChaosKnight said:

What will you become if you "climb that wall"? If MR represented skill or could be earned in any meaningful way, then yes. It would make sense.

But MR right now just requires you to lvl a bunch of things, most of which you won't even like or plan on using later on (hi MK1 Furis). Sure, Draco is always an answer, but, uh, shouldn't such things be discouraged promoting more active fun gameplay instead? Well, getting TO Draco might look like an achievement, until you look a bit closer at the game you play and find the recruitment chat.

You keep defending this system but I am yet to hear what MR gives to a player in it's current state. Besides the e-pen of course. I have a MR15 friend. He played for as long as I did. He's as good as I am. He has mods and multi-forma builds like I do. Why is he 15? Because he doesn't want to level up junk and throw it away. And THAT is the only way to climb MR atm.

Oh and let's talk about what Baro has to offer which is oh-so-valuable than it's worth a lock behind a wall. So which of the following is worth locking behind MR8? So that new player won't be "overpowered" by getting them.

Fashion frame? Don't be silly, if anything new people should have easier access to these so they'll be stimulated to buy plat cosmetics in the future instead of getting used to playing as Mr. Plain McBland.

Prisma Weapons? Well, they are kinda good but there's plenty of better options. Most of them are better than Karak I guess?

Primed mods? Eh, they don't really need them, nor can they level them at any reasonable rate. After all, it's not the mod itself but leveling of it which counts the most so I see no benefit or harm from them getting these.

Assassin bacons. Kinda useless to them IMO.

Boosters? Kinda expensive considering the limited ducats a newbie would have. So useless.

 

TL;DR: MR as we have it is useless, Baro has nothing worth locking behind a wall so I don't see why MR-lock for accessing him is even a thing.

Why don't we just tweak how MR works instead of making things immediately available to everyone, the OP's problem isn't really the problem of how Baro works, but how MR works

[EvilChaosKnight]

2 minutes ago, akira_him said:

Why don't we just tweak how MR works instead of making things immediately available to everyone, the OP's problem isn't really the problem of how Baro works, but how MR works

Simple. MR needs to be changed, that is true. BUT it would take time. Lots of it probably knowing what DE has planned so far.

So until it's changed, it would be wise to minimize the harm coming from the current implementation in a simple quick-to-implement way at least in some aspects of the game. Namely the one least tied to actual player progression (aka Baro).

Edited April 24, 2016 by EvilChaosKnight

[YasaiTsume]

1 minute ago, akira_him said:

Why don't we just tweak how MR works instead of making things immediately available to everyone, the OP's problem isn't really the problem of how Baro works, but how MR works

It all boils down to this really.

MR needs tweaking in the sense at how it is being used to gate players.

To be perfectly honest, I don't like the idea of new players being able to buy into the game and speed level regardless of whatever game it is.

It's like the Devs cooked up a Gourmet game and the newbie just chows the food down like fast food. 

[Rekkou]

7 minutes ago, EvilChaosKnight said:

-snip-

MR is undeniably messed up, and it gets worse because people try to get it for the sake of getting it and the method of getting it is very exploitable.

Baro also locks something, but one of the key to that is playing one aspect of game completely rather than just one map grinding. It's one little thing that is right, and the more reason not to change it.

[akira_him]

36 minutes ago, EvilChaosKnight said:

Simple. MR needs to be changed, that is true. BUT it would take time. Lots of it probably knowing what DE has planned so far.

So until it's changed, it would be wise to minimize the harm coming from the current implementation in a simple quick-to-implement way at least in some aspects of the game. Namely the one least tied to actual player progression (aka Baro).

so instead of fixing something that is broken, you go for breaking something else?

[BlackCoMerc]

8 hours ago, no_stripes said:

I don't see any problems with the current systems. People who are mad that they can't get to pluto usually don't have any ducats to spent anyway.

 

Patently untrue and you know it. Access to towers comes well before Pluto. As in, Excavations on Earth. Nice try.

[Vox_Preliator]

7 hours ago, Troll_Logic said:

I'll let you in on a little secret.  You don't finish the star chart for exp.  You finish the star chart so you can go anywhere on the star chart.  Coincidentally, that's what the OP is complaining about.  Not being able to go everywhere.

 

Finish the star chart.

I don't follow.  How is that relevant?  Like, at all?

How would finishing the star chart help, exactly?  I can already go to every planet, so factor forbidding my access to the Relay is Mastery.  My point was how screwy Mastery is, that hanging onto five weapons for a few missions means more than doing almost three hundred missions across various maps, enemy variants, and objectives. 

[Genitive]

During one of the devstreams it was said that Baro might get his own place along with the new starchart. I generally agree that putting him in a MR8 realay is pointless. True, some weapons might be mastery locked, but boosters or cosmetics aren't.

[Heiven]

1 minute ago, Vox_Preliator said:

How would finishing the star chart help, exactly?  I can already go to every planet, so factor forbidding my access to the Relay is Mastery.

Well when you unlock all or most of the missions in the star chart you also get access to a new frame on every planet witch will help you rank even faster(plus the xp from the missions).For me it was very fast to rise my MR(to MR10 i think) when completing the star chart and leveling all the frames to lv30(the ones that you can get from the boss fights).So in short you want to rise in MR with out going in the void, just do all the missions on the star chart.

[Caduzeus]

1 minute ago, Genitive said:

During one of the devstreams it was said that Baro might get his own place along with the new starchart. I generally agree that putting him in a MR8 realay is pointless. True, some weapons might be mastery locked, but boosters or cosmetics aren't.

That could be a solution I could vouch for, if they did it properly and tied it to a quest or something instead of MR. If you can get to his store and get his quest done, then his shop would be open for your business. Simple and fair for everyone.