WAR, what is it good for?

[-VV-Phantom-Phoenix]

On 4/25/2016 at 6:34 PM, Dreddeth said:

But really, why would you bring a Scindo or War to Grineer missions when the Destreza has a way better anti-armor IPS spread and guaranteed Bleed procs?

War has wide arcs, hence more enemies die when i pass by rather than destreza which is more focus'd.

[Azrael]

On 4/25/2016 at 6:34 PM, Dreddeth said:

Slash is horrible against anything not fleshy and absolutely needs either *4CP or an elecombo, while Impact is neutral against armor and more effective against shields, meaning you can just slot in Viral and be good to go.

On the subject of being objectively wrong, against a level 100 heavy gunner impact has a damage modifier of 0.0295, while slash has a damage modifier of 0.0365. Against that same enemy viral has a modifier of 0.0689 while corrosive gets 0.2461. So slash + corrosive does more damage against this enemy than impact + viral.

That being said, I enjoy War very much, and Broken War is very strong. If these weapons are meh, than there are no good weapons in warframe (unless you guys only ever use the tonkor or Mirage + Synoid Simulor). And I like Broken War much better than Nikana Prime because the nikana finisher animations are incredibly slow and frustrating, and I like to use blinds and stuns whenever possible. Personally I'd rate the Dual Kamas Prime above both (I recently killed a level 280+ corrupted bombard eximus in about 3 seconds with them) but that doesn't mean that War is garbage. Sometimes the phrase "this weapon is bad" really means "I don't understand how to make this weapon amazing."

[-N7-Leonhart]

On ‎4‎/‎24‎/‎2016 at 3:06 AM, MKDLMR said:

Absolutely nothing! 

Okay, joking aside this weapon needs a buff/re-work. I guess it is kind of effective against Corpus? I mean I've formaed it twice, but it still feels outclassed by my un-formaed scindo prime... against all enemy types. 

Thoughts? 

I can't be bothered to care about the base damage type. In the grand scheme of things, when the elementals are like 75% of the total damage, the physical damage type bonus against a specific health type adds like 5-10% more total damage. Certainly not enough to even care.

[elele]

14 hours ago, -VV-Phantom-Phoenix said:

i can't tell, is 60k supposed to impress me? I mean it's just sortie elemental-resistant corpus, there not exactly tough and its not like you have to massive AoE knock away enemies with jat kitty.

I don't think you understand. Jet kitty's knock away is actually bad for building combo counts because you want enemies to cluster not scatter. 

And be why do you want knock away if you can just kill them in one or two hits?

 

 

[elele]

6 hours ago, Lord_Azrael said:

(I recently killed a level 280+ corrupted bombard eximus in about 3 seconds with them)

With or without armor?

[Azrael]

1 hour ago, elele said:

With or without armor?

With. There were only two of us, so no 4x CP. The trick is I blinded him (I was mirage) and then killed him with slash procs, which ignore armor entirely. Any frame with a blind or stun can do this, but I prefer mirage because her blind doesn't open them to finishers.

 

*Edit: This was after about 1 hour 45 minutes of T4 survival, in case you were wondering where I encountered this monster.

Edited April 27, 2016 by Lord_Azrael
forgot to mention mission type

[elele]

1 hour ago, Lord_Azrael said:

With. There were only two of us, so no 4x CP. The trick is I blinded him (I was mirage) and then killed him with slash procs, which ignore armor entirely. Any frame with a blind or stun can do this, but I prefer mirage because her blind doesn't open them to finishers.

 

*Edit: This was after about 1 hour 45 minutes of T4 survival, in case you were wondering where I encountered this monster.

ah stealth attack bonuses on unalert enemies. I guess prismed enemies don't get alert after first  melee strike? I really need to try this. 8x stealth damage bonus multiplied by hall of mirrors and eclipse sounds insane. 

thank for sharing this! 

[-VV-Phantom-Phoenix]

4 hours ago, elele said:

I don't think you understand. Jet kitty's knock away is actually bad for building combo counts because you want enemies to cluster not scatter. 

And be why do you want knock away if you can just kill them in one or two hits?

 

 

My point is you ARE killing them with 1 or 2 hits with Jat Kitty, if you end up doing a combo with knockback(other point is you don't have to knockback) at the end and they manage to survive it you can hit them in mid-air to finish what little health they may have.

[AstroLord]

its bad only because of impact damage, why impact damage still exist?

[Dreddeth]

On 4/27/2016 at 4:46 AM, Lord_Azrael said:

On the subject of being objectively wrong, against a level 100 heavy gunner impact has a damage modifier of 0.0295, while slash has a damage modifier of 0.0365. Against that same enemy viral has a modifier of 0.0689 while corrosive gets 0.2461. So slash + corrosive does more damage against this enemy than impact + viral.

At first glance, the wiki would cast doubt upon your numbers. Care to tell which hat you pulled them from?

http://warframe.wikia.com/wiki/Damage

[Azrael]

1 minute ago, Dreddeth said:

At first glance, the wiki would cast doubt upon your numbers. Care to tell which hat you pulled them from?

http://warframe.wikia.com/wiki/Damage

The exact page you just posted. A little further down there's a formula that gives the DM (damage modifier) given the target's health modifier, armor modifier, and the amount of armor. You literally just plug in the numbers. Make sure you get the right max armor, though. The formula for that can be found on the wiki as well.

If you think about it, it should be obvious that you don't just do a straight +75% damage to ferrite armored targets, because this doesn't consider how much armor they actually have. Anyone who has fought a high-level grineer can tell you they take much less damage than a low-level one. That is, after all, the purpose of armor: to reduce damage. The +75% is an armor modifier, and it gets plugged into the DM equation just like max armor and health modifier does.

For clarity, the DM equation (from the page you posted) is: (1 + HM)*(1 + AM) / [ 1 + (AR*(1-AM)/300)]  where AR is the amount of armor, AM is the armor modifier, and HM is the health modifier. The result is the DM (damage modifier), and this is the number which is multiplied by your initial damage.

[Dreddeth]

Well that's egg on my face. I forgot to account for Cloned Flesh's modifier. Against Ferrite Armored Grineer, the 15% penalty for Slash is negated with interest by the 25% bonus, totaling a net +10%. Against Alloy Armor, the penalty is exactly twice as much as the bonus Slash gets, causing a net -25%, and in that case a War actually would be basically equal since 10 more base damage isn't exactly huge until multipliers kick in.

But outside of applications in which an Impact weapon would be desirable (Corpus, ironically Sentients if your Primary and Secondary have already taken the other two IPS types) it would seem that Scrub Prime is better. That's honestly kinda depressing considering how comparatively hard it is to get the damn thing.

On things that you'd want an Impact weapon for, though, yeah, it's probably better than your Jat Kittag or Fragor. Sibear is another matter entirely, being fully elemental and thus subject to different and often more potent multipliers.

Edited May 2, 2016 by Dreddeth

[ClinkzEastwood]

On 4/25/2016 at 6:34 AM, Dreddeth said:

 

You're both objectively wrong, though the Redeemer's range advantage makes Eastwood less so, because Covert Lethality exists, and while a dagger's on-paper speed multiplier is typically meh, its base animation speed is obscene. Slap Fury on it as well and you'll never need another weapon for Stealth runs.

Back on topic, though, War is pretty objectively better than Scindo Prime because Slash suffers penalties against every form of protection apart from shields, and Body Count causes base damage gaps to become wider and wider as the combo count increases. Even if you're running 4x Corrosive Projection or Shield Disruption, you can still slap on Viral to compensate for Impact's minor reduction against Flesh, and since it scales off of your modded base damage, what I just said about Body Count still applies.

See, Scindo Prime's 130 base *2.0 is 260. War's 140 base *2.0 is 280. 130*3.0 is 390, while 140*3.0 is 420. The Scindo Prime not only scales worse with Shadow Debt mods, but again Slash is horrible against anything not fleshy and absolutely needs either *4CP or an elecombo, while Impact is neutral against armor and more effective against shields, meaning you can just slot in Viral and be good to go. The only time this doesn't work is against Infested, because Infested have 2 different types of flesh that take 2 different elecombos to effectively counter if you're not using a weapon with high Slash damage.

The Scindo Prime isn't even necessarily the best Slash weapon for dedicated melee since the Tekko, Nikana Prime, and Broken War are now things. The Tekko reaches red-crit territory easier than any other weapon and has tons of multihits in Gaia's Tragedy. The Nikana Prime has comparable base damage with much better base speed and equal crit stats. Broken War has only slightly less crit and a stance which makes its base damage a little over double that of the Scindo Prime at the cost of reducing it to the same speed, with the other stance having enough hits in its combos that it ramps up significantly faster, though Iron Phoenix does suck pretty hard.

Also, the Hammer category is wonderful, but what I said about base damage still holds, and last I checked they were all equal or slower than War with only two being Berserker viable, so their sustained DPS is likely less, though certainly competitive.

But really, why would you bring a Scindo or War to Grineer missions when the Destreza has a way better anti-armor IPS spread and guaranteed Bleed procs?

I haven't ever seen so much miss information in such long posts.

People must be really proud of their misguided knowledge.

[YasaiTsume]

Are people actually arguing over a weapon that most people say that :

Yes, is a pretty sweet weapon, but no they don't care much for it. 

 

Just so people don't bash me for not being on topic, I feel War is a pretty high tier melee weapon because not only does it boast good damage, it also has an excellent Crit chance. That alone makes it able to accept a variety of builds.

Within the Heavy Blade Class, Schindo and Galatine are pretty much neck to neck with Schindo winning out on Crit factor, but by no means is it actually stronger than War who undeniably will have more damage when the Body Count ramps up. 

One also has to factor in armor, which then slash damage outclasses any other type of damage if CP is active, and loses out harder if not.

Edited April 29, 2016 by YasaiTsume

[TheBrsrkr]

Don't quote me on this, but I think when you hit people with it, they die. 

[ashrah]

war need buff... my gelatine per swing doing almost 4k dmg+speed of tempo royal.......will outshadow war...and vary is very slow and that combos who lock u down will make u lot time... killed

[Dreddeth]

12 hours ago, ClinkzEastwood said:

I haven't ever seen so much miss information in such long posts.

People must be really proud of their misguided knowledge.

If you'd followed the conversation, you'd know that I stood corrected regarding whether War is actually good against Armor.

If you're salty about how a Dagger with Covert Lethality turns your stealth finishers into script kills no matter what the enemy's level is, while other weapons are eventually reduced to tickling said enemy due to scaling, that's your problem, not mine.

[ClinkzEastwood]

6 hours ago, Dreddeth said:

If you'd followed the conversation, you'd know that I stood corrected regarding whether War is actually good against Armor.

If you're salty about how a Dagger with Covert Lethality turns your stealth finishers into script kills no matter what the enemy's level is, while other weapons are eventually reduced to tickling said enemy due to scaling, that's your problem, not mine.

Nope

19 hours ago, ClinkzEastwood said:

See, Scindo Prime's 130 base *2.0 is 260. War's 140 base *2.0 is 280. 130*3.0 is 390, while 140*3.0 is 420. The Scindo Prime not only scales worse with Shadow Debt mods, but again Slash is horrible against anything not fleshy and absolutely needs either *4CP or an elecombo, while Impact is neutral against armor and more effective against shields, meaning you can just slot in Viral and be good to go. The only time this doesn't work is against Infested, because Infested have 2 different types of flesh that take 2 different elecombos to effectively counter if you're not using a weapon with high Slash damage.

This is NOT how math works at all.

Flat numbers might LOOKS different, but the percentage stays exactly the same. Scindo has 92.8% of War's base damage and 105.45% of the speed. Their damage output are infact roughly the same.

And Broken War is mastery fodder tier. Don't even bring it up if you discuss out high-end melee.

And CL dagger is good only on paper. Stealth redeemer has innate punch through, doesn't have to play the stealth animation, ranged and can insta kill any enemies below lvl 100. If you are talking about efficiency stealth runs for xp, redeemer is unrivaled.

Edited April 30, 2016 by ClinkzEastwood

[Dreddeth]

2 hours ago, ClinkzEastwood said:

CL dagger is good only on paper. Stealth redeemer has innate punch through, doesn't have to play the stealth animation, ranged and can insta kill any enemies below lvl 100. If you are talking about efficiency stealth runs for xp, redeemer is unrivaled.

Redeemer relies on janky-arsed charge attacks, and is basically useless past a certain point. If I want a guaranteed kill some time today, I'd rather run up with a dagger and stab the bugger.
 

2 hours ago, ClinkzEastwood said:

Broken War is mastery fodder tier. Don't even bring it up if you discuss out high-end melee.

Because having the base damage of the Dragon Nikana, a stance that multiplies that by 3 (Incidentally making its Slash damage alone much higher than Scindo Prime's entire base damage), and still being Berserker viable is SO bad.

 

2 hours ago, ClinkzEastwood said:

Scindo has 92.8% of War's base damage and 105.45% of the speed. Their damage output are infact roughly the same.

Damage per hit and damage per second are two different things, and while we're at it, there are one-handed weapons with better reach than the Scindo. It's why many people prefer the Galatine and its ability to hit things more than about 2 feet in front of you, because if you're going to have the trash-tier speed of a Heavy weapon, you're gonna want the reach to make up for it.

[ClinkzEastwood]

On 4/30/2016 at 3:26 PM, Dreddeth said:

Redeemer relies on janky-arsed charge attacks, and is basically useless past a certain point. If I want a guaranteed kill some time today, I'd rather run up with a dagger and stab the bugger.
 

Because having the base damage of the Dragon Nikana, a stance that multiplies that by 3 (Incidentally making its Slash damage alone much higher than Scindo Prime's entire base damage), and still being Berserker viable is SO bad.

 

Damage per hit and damage per second are two different things, and while we're at it, there are one-handed weapons with better reach than the Scindo. It's why many people prefer the Galatine and its ability to hit things more than about 2 feet in front of you, because if you're going to have the trash-tier speed of a Heavy weapon, you're gonna want the reach to make up for it.

If passing certain point means lvl 150+ enemies yes, Redeemer is bad at doing that. But who farm xp with lvl 150+ enemies?

Also if you find the charge attack janky then the problem lies between your chair and your monitor.

DPS matters, a lot, if you talk about low level enemies, then any melee is viable. It starts to become matter when you can't insta kill things anymore.

About Broken War, call me when it can churn out as much dps as Hate.

[IceColdHawk]

On 29.4.2016 at 0:42 PM, TheBrsrkr said:

Don't quote me on this, but I think when you hit people with it, they die. 

Wise words. Still awaiting for scientific confirmation if that is actually true...

On 29.4.2016 at 0:48 PM, ashrah said:

war need buff... my gelatine per swing doing almost 4k dmg+speed of tempo royal.......will outshadow war...and vary is very slow and that combos who lock u down will make u lot time... killed

I wish my  would deal 4k dmg per swing :/

no offense mate. +1

23 minutes ago, ClinkzEastwood said:

About Broken War, call me when it can churn out as much dps as Hate.

About Hate, call me when it can churn out as much dps as Lesion.

Hah, this thread is good.

[Dreddeth]

9 hours ago, ClinkzEastwood said:

Hate.

You mean the worst thing out of all the BP drops Stalker offers? Consider yourself called. It's base damage is 70, with 20% crit chance and 2.5 multiplier? Broken War's is 90 and Crimson Dervish triples that to 270 on every hit with your melee equipped, and it still has a respectable 15% crit chance and 2.0 multiplier. If a no-mod Hate CRITS, it deals 175 damage, which is still 95 damage shy of a no-mod Broken War's effective BASE damage if you're using Crimson Dervish stance. If a no-mod Broken War crits, it deals 540 damage thanks to Crimson Dervish's damage multiplier, which is worth 3 of Hate's crits plus 15 damage in spare change.

"But crit chance and multiplier mods and Berserker," you say. Yeah, Broken War can use those too. It ramps up slower, but that barely even matters when Broken War's effective base damage is nearly 100 points higher than Hate's crit damage.

In fact, the closest thing the Hate has to the universal 300% damage multiplier of Crimson Dervish stance is a single combo, Shadow Wing of the Stalking Fan stance.

[ClinkzEastwood]

11 hours ago, IceColdHawk said:

W

About Hate, call me when it can churn out as much dps as Lesion.

Hah, this thread is good.

Call me when you make lesion works without wanting to chop your pinky off.

[ClinkzEastwood]

1 hour ago, Dreddeth said:

You mean the worst thing out of all the BP drops Stalker offers? Consider yourself called. It's base damage is 70, with 20% crit chance and 2.5 multiplier? Broken War's is 90 and Crimson Dervish triples that to 270 on every hit with your melee equipped, and it still has a respectable 15% crit chance and 2.0 multiplier. If a no-mod Hate CRITS, it deals 175 damage, which is still 95 damage shy of a no-mod Broken War's effective BASE damage if you're using Crimson Dervish stance. If a no-mod Broken War crits, it deals 540 damage thanks to Crimson Dervish's damage multiplier, which is worth 3 of Hate's crits plus 15 damage in spare change.

"But crit chance and multiplier mods and Berserker," you say. Yeah, Broken War can use those too. It ramps up slower, but that barely even matters when Broken War's effective base damage is nearly 100 points higher than Hate's crit damage.

In fact, the closest thing the Hate has to the universal 300% damage multiplier of Crimson Dervish stance is a single combo, Shadow Wing of the Stalking Fan stance.

 

http://warframe.wikia.com/wiki/Stalking_Fan

3x300%=100%+2x400%

Why are you talking about modless weapon? What are you trying to prove?

With Crit mods, Hate out dps Broken War by about 25%.

War about dps Broken War is the same manner.

In fact there are rarely a melee that is worse than Broken War outside of it's own class.

Edited May 2, 2016 by ClinkzEastwood

[Rambit23Z]

Crimson Dervish is way too slow for practical use. I'd take Vengeful Revenant over Dervish any day of the week. And since I have Vengeful Revenant, I can.

About Slash versus Impact. Slash comes out ahead if you can stack bleed procs. Nikana Prime excels greatly at that with multihits from Blind Justice and a fast attack speed. However, that is a relatively big "if". I'd probably use War simply due to how good it looks, if Stalker would start dropping some god-damn blueprints.