WAR, what is it good for?

[ClinkzEastwood]

2 hours ago, Dreddeth said:

You have to add Crimson Dervish's universal 3* multiplier by hand, because Warframe Builder doesn't calculate combo multipliers. Once you do that, Broken War's damage goes quite far beyond Hate's. as the post before the one you've quoted illustrates.

Or you could stay willfully ignorant, but numbers, and in particular effective base damage numbers that are just 10 points shy of double War's base damage, aren't inclined to lie.

Did you count Stalking fan's 4x multiplier or you're just willfully ignorance?

[Dreddeth]

1 hour ago, ClinkzEastwood said:

Did you count Stalking fan's 4x multiplier or you're just willfully ignorance?

Let me correct that, since you were apparently in too much of a huff to proofread yourself.

*Did you count Stalking Fan's 4* multiplier, or are you just willfully ignorant?

That is two hits of one combo, of which you yourself have said, "3x300%=100%+2x400%." In truth, Crimson Dervish's basic combo is 4*300%, because the last key input is a double-hitting attack. In the end, Crimson Dervish's basic combo has a total of 1,200%. Shadow Wing, in comparison, deals a total of 1,300% when all of its hits are accounted for.

So congratulations, ONE combo, and a BACK combo at that, of ONE stance, for which you MUST use a third Forma, allows you to slightly exceed the damage output of Crimson Dervish's BASIC combo. The Block combo of Crimson Dervish, on the other hand, is pretty much its basic combo with 3 100% hits and a Counter-Attack Finisher tacked on to the end, for a total of 3,100%, and a few frames of invincibility to boot, and is actually spammable without walking backwards.

For someone who thinks the Redeemer is good enough as far as stealth weapons are concerned, you're already 3 Forma and a Catalyst into a weapon that never drops off of a mob that never appears and still can't consistently match the no-Forma damage output of a weapon you get for free without resorting to endlessly spamming a combo that has a back button in it, which itself is superseded by a much easier to execute block combo. There's a reason why people said scythes are S#&$e-tier, lad, and even the recent buff is quite evidently not enough for them to compete with other light weapons, because their stances just suck that much.

Edited May 3, 2016 by Dreddeth

[Chipputer]

I don't know why everyone says that Crimson Dervish has a finisher combo, still. I'm quite certain they removed the finisher triggering, recently.

[Dreddeth]

7 minutes ago, Chipputer said:

I don't know why everyone says that Crimson Dervish has a finisher combo, still. I'm quite certain they removed the finisher triggering, recently.

It might have bugged out at some point, but it was fixed.

 

[taiiat]

War applies more Elemental Damage due to it's higher base Damage, therefore it does more Damage.
if you hit Infested with both, granted, Scindo Prime will benefit from it's Slash Damage.

but as always, Armored Enemies are the only ones that are significant in EHP, and the higher base Damage means more of the good Damage Types.
that's pretty much all there is to it.

i have a hard time believing you notice the ~5.4525% Speed decrease on War.
people (including myself) have been saying the ~3.4126% Speed decrease Scindo Prime has on Galatine is too small to tell the difference for certain.

 

so then, more relevant Damage per swing, higher Status (for Corrosive Status or something w/e - Impact Status is useful too though).
none of the Heavy Blades have good Attack Range anyways, they're all about half the length of the Weapon

[ButterLutter]

I have never used Hate and used Broken War just as a mastery fodder, so if you guys dont mind id like to type my 5 cents in all objectivity down
I'm just going to talk about their stances and their respective combos.

1) Crimson Dervish
Right click at the start of the game and thats it. The best combo from this stance can be used that simple. I dont even need to hold the block button because i have the toggle function activated. By just looking at the combo list i know exactly that i am going to do it this way and it will work. But what about its speed? Good point. On paper Crimson Dervish slows your attack speed down. In reality, this doesnt matter. There is nothing the good ol' Berserker cant fix.

2) Stalking Fan for Hate

Spoiler

I personally would stick to the Reaping Spiral stance because it has the matching polarity and i am not a fan of using Formas just to change a polarity. Id rather give it one more polarity and not just change one. But if you are swimming in Formas - alright then, lets go with the Stalking Fan.

The best combo is executed by walking backwards. Thats just... terrible. I didnt try it with the Hate in particular, but with some other weapons and my experience is... no, just no.
You either walk backwards the entire game - which isnt helpful - or you gonna learn the timing. In the beginning its going fine, you can do it with no enemies around, testing is going good. And now a real scenario... Sh*t... Berserker mod starts working. Thats the point you realize sh*t is going down. With fully activated Berserker and enemies all around you, the timing gets super stressful. You start to compensate by holding the backwards longer - which makes you move backwards again, which is terrible. And dont get me started with a Valkyr in your squad. Thats the point where you give up and stop using the combo.
So in the end id stick to the way easier Dying Light combo. Walking forward and thats it. Thats exactly what we want in the first place anyways.

 

Now if i have to decide between Crimson Dervish or Stalking Fan...
Id take Crimson Dervish and thus Broken War anyday. Its combo is braindead simple and you can focus on your game and not on executing combos. There is no learning curve required at all.
Stalking Fan is hard to master. Its easier if you are solo and harder if you get swarmed, but its over when your attack speed gets buffed. Its downright not practical. Its strong - but not practical.

 

cheers

Edited May 3, 2016 by ButterLutter

[ClinkzEastwood]

5 hours ago, Dreddeth said:

Let me correct that, since you were apparently in too much of a huff to proofread yourself.

*Did you count Stalking Fan's 4* multiplier, or are you just willfully ignorant?

That is two hits of one combo, of which you yourself have said, "3x300%=100%+2x400%." In truth, Crimson Dervish's basic combo is 4*300%, because the last key input is a double-hitting attack. In the end, Crimson Dervish's basic combo has a total of 1,200%. Shadow Wing, in comparison, deals a total of 1,300% when all of its hits are accounted for.

So congratulations, ONE combo, and a BACK combo at that, of ONE stance, for which you MUST use a third Forma, allows you to slightly exceed the damage output of Crimson Dervish's BASIC combo. The Block combo of Crimson Dervish, on the other hand, is pretty much its basic combo with 3 100% hits and a Counter-Attack Finisher tacked on to the end, for a total of 3,100%, and a few frames of invincibility to boot, and is actually spammable without walking backwards.

For someone who thinks the Redeemer is good enough as far as stealth weapons are concerned, you're already 3 Forma and a Catalyst into a weapon that never drops off of a mob that never appears and still can't consistently match the no-Forma damage output of a weapon you get for free without resorting to endlessly spamming a combo that has a back button in it, which itself is superseded by a much easier to execute block combo. There's a reason why people said scythes are S#&$e-tier, lad, and even the recent buff is quite evidently not enough for them to compete with other light weapons, because their stances just suck that much.

All crimson dervish combos are exactly the same bar the last move.

Stalking Fan's back combo does not actually move you backward even like other back combos if you hold down the button. If you tap it's actually pretty mobile. Your "knowledge" toward this stance shows that you actually have no idea what you are talking about and just pull random crap out of whatever hole you have.

Crimson dervish no longer deal counter attack finisher, it knocks enemy down instead

Everyone said scythes are S#&$ tier because they was S#&$ 2 months ago, and then DE buff them into some of the best melee in the game. Even the third best scythe Anku does more dps than Broken war. Not to mention everybody's opinion don't worth a damn in front of cold hard facts.

Way of acquisition, forma and catalyst should not be brought into the discussion. The weapon in the title has the same drop rate and drop from the same mob which never appear as Hate. Tonkor, Zhuge, which are weapons which have extremely impressive raw numbers, needs 5-6 formas to be maxed which is way higher comparing to other guns. 

In fact, all the numbers, calculation are against you, yet you still pull out excuses to make up for your misguided opinion which no one should cares about. I have no idea why you still drag on this dicussion when literally every single evidents brought out, both from me and from you, say that you're wrong. At this point, unless you can give me numbers that proves that your point actually has a ground, I'd just ignore every single of your post directing at me.

Edited May 3, 2016 by ClinkzEastwood

[ClinkzEastwood]

1 hour ago, ButterLutter said:

I have never used Hate and used Broken War just as a mastery fodder, so if you guys dont mind id like to type my 5 cents in all objectivity down
I'm just going to talk about their stances and their respective combos.

Yeah your 2 cents are not objective at all.

[ButterLutter]

Yes they are :)

I wasnt comparing the weapon stats, i wasnt saying which one is stronger, i wasnt saying which one is better.
i was comparing the best combo from each stance. not even their dmg output, just how they get activated.
And right click is always better than backwards. In fact, backwards is the worst combo starter from all the combos out there (block/forward/pause/backwards (edit and hold - forgot that one))

What wasnt objective was which one i would use (i am using non). opinions are never objective.

The fact that you didnt realize this, because the argument went against your beloved Hate, just proves that you are completely biased.
You are actually so much biased, that non of your postings can be taken seriously.

After reading the whole topic i think everyone noticed this - except you.

Edited May 3, 2016 by ButterLutter

[GrimAtrament]

2 hours ago, ButterLutter said:

, just proves that you are completely biased.
 

 

whos not biased? i have yet to see a none biased person in my life

[ButterLutter]

3 hours ago, hazerddex said:

whos not biased? i have yet to see a none biased person in my life

you are absolutely right :)

depending how biased on a topic you are, you can still look at something from an objective point of view though.
good example is the combo starter. from an objective point of view, right clicking is more desirable than going backwards. its easier and wont hinder your movement.

Clinkz doesnt recognize this, in fact labeled this argumantation as not objective, and thus exposed himself as too biased.

Edited May 3, 2016 by ButterLutter

[(PSN)Fac3kick3r_lolz]

This thread. Just use whatever you want lol.

 

[LazyKnight]

Why are people calling War mastery fodder? This bothers me, as I stuck two forma on mine and it's easily one of my strongest melee weapons (excluding daggers with covert Lethality obviously). 

War is a heavy blade and it scales well with body count and blood rush, and due to this; War is one of the higher dps melee weapons in game and it's not meant for quick melee strikes or slide attacks. War has access to tempo royale and that's one of the better stance in game by any measurement.

The only weak point about the War is the range and sometimes the impact damage, but it's not like the impact is totally bad as you can use primed heavy trauma or mod for whatever single elemental is required for armor. 

Really I was expecting this to be a cleverly crafted nerf topic...

Edited May 3, 2016 by LazyKnight

[ButterLutter]

11 minutes ago, LazyKnight said:

Why are people calling War mastery fodder? This bothers me, as I stuck two forma on mine and it's easily one of my strongest melee weapons (excluding daggers with covert Lethality obviously). 

Some people just see the impact damage and instantly go into a "nope-mode"..

[Dreddeth]

7 hours ago, ClinkzEastwood said:

Crimson dervish no longer deal counter attack finisher, it knocks enemy down instead.

I literally just posted a link to a hotfix where they changed it back into a stun proc, which opens the enemy up for a finisher. Try reading, some time. You can disparage me all you want, but the Broken War I got for free at the end of Second Dream is still numerically superior to your Hate, even after all three Forma you'd need to stick into it to give it a Blood Rush build and the one stance with the one good combo, and to add insult to injury Broken War can fit said build "out of box."

Edited May 3, 2016 by Dreddeth

[ClinkzEastwood]

11 hours ago, ButterLutter said:

Yes they are :)

I wasnt comparing the weapon stats, i wasnt saying which one is stronger, i wasnt saying which one is better.
i was comparing the best combo from each stance. not even their dmg output, just how they get activated.
And right click is always better than backwards. In fact, backwards is the worst combo starter from all the combos out there (block/forward/pause/backwards (edit and hold - forgot that one))

What wasnt objective was which one i would use (i am using non). opinions are never objective.

The fact that you didnt realize this, because the argument went against your beloved Hate, just proves that you are completely biased.
You are actually so much biased, that non of your postings can be taken seriously.

After reading the whole topic i think everyone noticed this - except you.

Have you, idk, used one or both of those stances to even start with? Or your "objectivity" was pulled out of thin air?

[ClinkzEastwood]

6 hours ago, Dreddeth said:

I literally just posted a link to a hotfix where they changed it back into a stun proc, which opens the enemy up for a finisher. Try reading, some time. You can disparage me all you want, but the Broken War I got for free at the end of Second Dream is still numerically superior to your Hate, even after all three Forma you'd need to stick into it to give it a Blood Rush build and the one stance with the one good combo, and to add insult to injury Broken War can fit said build "out of box."

Numberically how? Hate is 60% better than Broken War in YOUR own example, not even mine. And don't pretend Crimson dervish is not an one move stance with just different last hit.

[ClinkzEastwood]

And this is the last time I reply to you in which you don't actually give out numbericall value to support your post. I don't care about your opinion, only facts, so if you can't give me that, please refrain from arguing with me about objective matters in the future.

[taiiat]

18 hours ago, taiiat said:

War applies more Elemental Damage due to it's higher base Damage, therefore it does more Damage.

damn, i forgot the perfect example.

Rakta Cernos is Impact based - but because of dealing more Damage per shot, that means it applies more Elemental Damage per shot than any other Bow, resulting in more effective Damage vs any Enemy.
it also doesn't need a Speed Mod which lets it have even more Damage, but that's a different discussion.

[Dreddeth]

29 minutes ago, ClinkzEastwood said:

And this is the last time I reply to you in which you don't actually give out numbericall value to support your post. I don't care about your opinion, only facts, so if you can't give me that, please refrain from arguing with me about objective matters in the future.

I've provided factual information which indicates that the multipliers attached to the Crimson Dervish stance are simply too high for Hate to overcome with its marginally better crit stats. I went and actually did the math, adding in said stance multipliers by hand, and have pored over just about everything apart from the difference in base animation speed between swords and scythes (Different weapons types have different base speeds affected by individual multipliers, which is why daggers are fast in practice even though on paper they should be slow.) on account of Crimson Dervish making swords just as dreadfully slow as scythes.

The fact of Crimson Dervish being a one-hit wonder aside, that one-hit wonder is actually doable, unlike that back combo you keep clinging to, and does more damage anyway to boot. At this point you are grasping at straws.

It's quite evident now that the only "facts" you care about are ones which support your position, which has been consummately debunked. This debate is thus concluded.

[ClinkzEastwood]

1 hour ago, Dreddeth said:

I've provided factual information which indicates that the multipliers attached to the Crimson Dervish stance are simply too high for Hate to overcome with its marginally better crit stats. I went and actually did the math, adding in said stance multipliers by hand, and have pored over just about everything apart from the difference in base animation speed between swords and scythes (Different weapons types have different base speeds affected by individual multipliers, which is why daggers are fast in practice even though on paper they should be slow.) on account of Crimson Dervish making swords just as dreadfully slow as scythes.

The fact of Crimson Dervish being a one-hit wonder aside, that one-hit wonder is actually doable, unlike that back combo you keep clinging to, and does more damage anyway to boot. At this point you are grasping at straws.

It's quite evident now that the only "facts" you care about are ones which support your position, which has been consummately debunked. This debate is thus concluded.

The multiplier which is about the same as Stalking fan's multiplier?

And again, if you actually own and use stalking fans, you will actually see that, even if you hold down the back button during combo, you are STILL twice as mobile as crimson dervish, and if you tap, you'll be about 4 times.

If you can't execute that combo, the problem is between your chair and your computer.

And why am I still replying to your crap posts, I have no idea.

Edited May 4, 2016 by ClinkzEastwood

[Foliage11877]

I use War if I'm using a heavy that isn't Jat Kitag, reminds me of the FUGS from the Dark Souls series.

[Dreddeth]

1 hour ago, ClinkzEastwood said:

And why am I still replying to your crap posts, I have no idea.

You really should stop. Desperation only attracts vultures.

[ClinkzEastwood]

3 hours ago, Dreddeth said:

You really should stop. Desperation only attracts vultures.

Desperation from determination in saving people from their own ignorance.

It's a curse.

[-VV-Phantom-Phoenix]

Why is it that a War discussion became a Hate vs broken-war discussion.

Also did hate get a stealth buff? or did broken war get a stealth nerf?

I seem to remember scythes being classed together with machetes in terms of strength before.