Tonkor Balancing (Nerf) discussion..

[Magneu]

40 minutes ago, -CM-Hekovashi said:

You don't read what i said don't ya? I don't defend tonkor, but it should exist as it is at exact this moment.

 Where i said that lvl 250-400 is balanced? I said that it's insanely broken, but it still exist in the game and lots of pll want to do endurance runs. Untill that lvl of scaling exist there should be guns that able to kill it, remove that lvl of scaling and you don't gonna need tonkors, vayhek, s tigris and other stuff.

 Adding self damage would ruin it, coz as tonkor showed-there high demand of players who DON'T wanna do self damage, no1 need it or find it interesitng.

 De CAN and SHOULD nerf tonkor at some point, but only AFTER scaling is fixed and all other launchers will do nodamage and receive damage tweaks.

My bad, was speed-reading. Yeah, if scaling was normalized, then we could proceed with overall weapon balance, which would be great. However, in its current state, the Tonkor simply does too much damage with not enough downsides; check the other megathread on this. It lays out multiple arguments against the Tonkor that I believe are rather hard, if impossible to (logically) defeat.

I would prefer scaling to be balanced, then the Tonkor be given a balance pass. The Tonkor in its current state is unnacceptable though, as it is objectively better than...well, everything, with the sole exception of low level missions (and that is not a valid arguments; a decked out player could sneeze and clear those missions).

[(PSN)AngelShur]

55 minutes ago, Magneu said:

My bad, was speed-reading. Yeah, if scaling was normalized, then we could proceed with overall weapon balance, which would be great. However, in its current state, the Tonkor simply does too much damage with not enough downsides; check the other megathread on this. It lays out multiple arguments against the Tonkor that I believe are rather hard, if impossible to (logically) defeat.

I would prefer scaling to be balanced, then the Tonkor be given a balance pass. The Tonkor in its current state is unnacceptable though, as it is objectively better than...well, everything, with the sole exception of low level missions (and that is not a valid arguments; a decked out player could sneeze and clear those missions).

I must agree with both you and the person you're quoting, that's why I believe Tonkor needs a slight rework. Because with the current scaling, it would be fun yeah don't understand me wrong, but it takes to long to clear a high level mission, let alone when you need to do serious crowd controls. Especially when playing with some (what I call; 2015 Draco born Tenno who don't know how to build and be tactical) High MR but I don't know what I'm doing types.... 

But just posting this last comment make me realize that this is actually the reason DE is balancing out what they are balancing out right now... The computer digits don't lie sadly. 

Thanks for sharing the link you did and more! 

[(PSN)Redemption_015]

Seriously DE, why do love not solving problems? Stop nerfing things. It's like the Hydra; you kill one and two more grow in its place. There will always be a group of top tier weapons. Why don't you guys just put down the nerf bat and start buffing other crappy weapons instead.

Edited May 14, 2016 by (PS4)Redemption_015

[Kotsender_Quasimir]

 

28 minutes ago, Kalel_087 said:

you want people to stop playing waframe because people like you go around QQing about things that do not need it leading them to get fed up and leave the game.

mhm, like every nerf in this game has led to a mass exodus. since gammacor, g-mag, mesa and saryn got nerfed i hardly find people to play with at all anymore :( ... warframe is dying because of the whiners! D: ... yeah.

 

regarding tonkor: you even get a laserpointer. how is it hard to aim. the blast radius is so big you don't even HAVE to aim most of the time anyway. spray in the general direction of spawn points and watch the numbers in the hundreds of thousands fly. if you enjoy its mechanics now i don't see why you wouldn't like it in a more balanced state.

[TheBright888]

Tonkor is OK as it is. Warframe has OP stuff and tonkor is one of them.

[StolenLife]

Greetings. I saw this topic and I think that tonkor rebalance is not necessary. I am think tonkor not imbalanced, but good weapon. There are other weapons that can be better than tonkor. In addition you waste lot of forms to get best characteristics...

In general, there will always be complaining about something and finally we getting bad weapons. Nerf, nerf, nerf. Afterwards we want to up nerfed gun again

But its my humble opinion :)

[K0bra]

49 minutes ago, TheBright888 said:

Tonkor is OK as it is. Warframe has OP stuff and tonkor is one of them.

^^This.I have nothing to add.

[NightElve]

10 hours ago, (XB1)EternalDrk Mako said:

 for a fact i do not use a tonkor at all, i personally do not find it a fun match with my play style, so i dont use it. i use a variety of weapons as i want to develop as a gamer

imo a nerf doesnt mean to destroy the weapons capabilities, but to adjust ait according to game mechanics , it could improve the gun better then it currently is makign it scale for instace, and for the fact that many like one shot weapons is not the issue i see tenno

i think weapons in general require a scaling factor, the fact the tonkor is used by many is due to its destructive capabilities , even stripped down one, no mods lvl 0 can take out a lvl 100+ enemy rather effectively and that should be realistically reflected with other weapons as well so we have some variety. 

i do not question or see and issue with your  fun  or others, but for new players its habit of play i see repeatedly happening 

recently i was training 5 new players from 0 rnk to 10 rnk , they all eventually got the tonkor and now use nothing else ...at all, and have no ..desire to use anything else as one put it "why would i use anything else, when i can one shot any enemy?"

there is no variety or interest to progress or try other weapons. they eventually get bored and stop playing all together, 3 of the 5 have already quite as they are no longer "challenged" by the game

that is an issue as i see it. 

well i actually got your idea/reasoning very well and it sounds reasonable, ((Lol! about quitting the game Tonkor has nothing to with it in majority)) but what does Tonkor have to do with it? instead is buffing Penta like explosion radius. or Ogris(sorry if spelling error), the other weapons are very very much mediocre, ive been using Tonkor literally everytime, i have 6 Forma on it, i actually forced myself to use a Penta and i realised it straight up killed me, and it compromised my movements a lot! if there's a weapon that should be actually being crazily buffed or nerfed it's Penta, buff other explosives and i think the game will be ok, the other main concern that i should start is the Forums acting as a disciplinary council for the majority of players, out of the 40,000 - 60,000 players who are active, around 100 , 0.002% actually go on saying how other players should be playing (mostly forums), there have been complaints  from players about Forums,  i use Tonkor daily (in game) and i have no issue with it at all, just more fun to play with and easier, fact is 90% players like the way Tonkor is buff or nerf it, it's upto DE.

[K0bra]

5 hours ago, Evanescent said:

Best way to balance is to have self damage, and a bulletjump alt fire.

Sorry but this is crap.The grenades from the Tonkor are WAY to bouncy to enable selfdamage.

I can remember times where everyone was playing Ogris and after that Penta.Everywhere dead Tennos on the ground and i had to revive them.No thank you.I want to play the game and im not interested in Revive Simulator 2.0 again.

Edited May 14, 2016 by K0bra

[(PSN)Lord_Gremlin]

5 minutes ago, K0bra said:

^^This.I have nothing to add.

I can add something. Tonkor is perfectly fine, even if MR requirements probably need adjustment. 

But other launchers are in dire need of buffs. They are all trash. Even in basic sortie 3. Elemental enhanced sortie 3? Only tonkor is usable. And pretty weak. 

On a side note they should revert last changes on synoid gammacor. You literally have no beam weapon choices for pistol only sortie 3, it's idiotic. 

[NightElve]

15 hours ago, Major_Phantom said:

Problem is every player under MR12 has 99% Tonkor usage cause everyone tells them it's sooo goood.

That's freaking horrible and should be subsided.

This is a snipet, of complaints all over in summary about the Forums, A lot of people are convinced everyone else should play the way they want them to. Unfortunately DE has a bad habit of listening of to them sometimes. They usually fix it afterwards, but there have been some terrible decisions based off of forum rabble rabble, so this is what other players think of the Forums, complaints about players using weapons too much should be ignored by DE at best, i have 100% tonkor usage MR 20, most players like using Tonkor just us you have stated and it's known, question is should DE listen to the 0.02% of Forum personalized opinions out of the 40,000 - 60,000 players?? i'll use Tonkor as much and repeatedly as i want fun, fun, fun, just as my friends use it,

[(PSN)Nukerxero123]

To any person who complains about the tonlor, it has only two shots In the magazine, the reload time is two seconds and there is no alt fire like the penta so the grenades bounce and only dentonate over time or direct hit. So how is it op. It is very strong. It is like the sancti Tigris, you will reload more than shoot the dam thing. So yeah damage Is good but the chances of you dying because if it is much much higher. If you miss the first shot when it goes through the legs of the enemy and the second shot doesn't kill the enemy then you are ******. You will die. It is good but yeah. Also the Tonkor shouldn't be nerfed, as a Tonkor without a forma or a potato will still do more damage than a penta with the same mods. The penta has more utility though as alt fire allows you to kill enemies fast or as a trap. The Tonkor shouldn't be nerfed only the others buffed, as the penta would be much better with more damage, same with torid. 

[NightElve]

15 hours ago, -Amaterasu- said:

1 The Tonkor needs to be MR locked at at least 9 or 10

2. The Tonkor needs to do Self-Damage, It's too easy right now

The main reason majority of players complaining about nerfs and getting frustrated with the game at times is because of this few Forums users,A lot of people are convinced everyone else should play the way they want them to. Unfortunately DE has a bad habit of listening of to them sometimes. They usually fix it afterwards, but there have been some terrible decisions based off of forum rabble rabble, there are 40000!!! active players, why would a few 100 players call a nerf for 39900 players??!! saying its making the other 39000 cheap??? look all over no one wants nerfs, There OP weapons in every game and Tonkor is our OP!

[TheBrsrkr]

35 minutes ago, NightElve said:

, the other main concern that i should start is the Forums acting as a disciplinary council for the majority of players, out of the 40,000 - 60,000 players who are active, around 100 , 0.002% actually go on saying how other players should be playing (mostly forums), there have been complaints  from players about Forums,  

"It's an unpopular opinion" has nothing to do with right or wrong. Whether 1 person or a million people say it makes little difference. 

 

26 minutes ago, (PS4)Nukerxero123 said:

To any person who complains about the tonlor, it has only two shots In the magazine, the reload time is two seconds and there is no alt fire like the penta so the grenades bounce and only dentonate over time or direct hit. So how is it op. 

No self damage, so you can shotgun it. A freaking aim guide, so you really don't have an excuse to miss. Largest blast radius of any launcher. Half a million damage. The fact that even though the other grenades miss they do full damage in 5 seconds that can still kill anything within its big radius. The reload time is 2 seconds, which is shorter than any other launcher and not that long compared to other weapons. You can use the first shot to help you aim the second and everything STILL ends up dead. 

 

Come on guys, there's a 47 page thread right there in the feedback section. You think no one has said this already? 

[StolenLife]

...Somewhere one tonkor feels sad in the world right now...

[(PSN)Nukerxero123]

3 minutes ago, TheBrsrkr said:

"It's an unpopular opinion" has nothing to do with right or wrong. Whether 1 person or a million people say it makes little difference. 

 

No self damage, so you can shotgun it. A freaking aim guide, so you really don't have an excuse to miss. Largest blast radius of any launcher. Half a million damage. The fact that even though the other grenades miss they do full damage in 5 seconds that can still kill anything within its big radius. The reload time is 2 seconds, which is shorter than any other launcher and not that long compared to other weapons. You can use the first shot to help you aim the second and everything STILL ends up dead. 

 

Come on guys, there's a 47 page thread right there in the feedback section. You think no one has said this already? 

I know theres a thread for this. Also when i mentioned the bouncing grenades missing, I meant that it would miss the thing ur trying to kill say a bombard, so if you miss won't that same bombard kill you.

[ninjacat2015]

If you nerf tonkor what will you use against sortie and raid enemies and level 100-200+ stuff in general ? The tonkor is one of few weapons that make endgame content playable. 

[(PSN)SektorZR1]

nerfs? in a pve game? what is this, 2015?

[TheBrsrkr]

25 minutes ago, (PS4)Nukerxero123 said:

I know theres a thread for this. Also when i mentioned the bouncing grenades missing, I meant that it would miss the thing ur trying to kill say a bombard, so if you miss won't that same bombard kill you.

If you miss in the first place, it's your fault, not the Tonkor's. You have an aim guide, and you can get as close as you like since there's no way to kill yourself with it. Even if you miss, what about your second shot? Use that one. Bullet jump. Roll. Dodge. Does having an OP weapon mean your frame is somehow immune to death? 

 

10 minutes ago, (PS4)SektorZR1 said:

nerfs? in a pve game? what is this, 2015?

Saying a PvE multiplayer game doesn't need nerfs? What is this, 2013?

[(PSN)Nukerxero123]

Just now, TheBrsrkr said:

If you miss in the first place, it's your fault, not the Tonkor's. You have an aim guide, and you can get as close as you like since there's no way to kill yourself with it. Even if you miss, what about your second shot? Use that one. Bullet jump. Roll. Dodge. Does having an OP weapon mean your frame is somehow immune to death? 

 

Saying a PvE multiplayer game doesn't need nerfs? What is this, 2013?

If you don't want to use the weapon dont, why you got to be such a whiny little brat. Don't use the weapon, let the others use the weapon and enjoy it. And I was conveying the points made in the other thread to here. Dam.

[WARLOCKE]

13 minutes ago, ninjacat2015 said:

If you nerf tonkor what will you use against sortie and raid enemies and level 100-200+ stuff in general ? The tonkor is one of few weapons that make endgame content playable. 

Vaykor Hek, Sancti Tigris, Brakk, Synoid Simulor, Daggers with covert lethality, Lex Prime, Nikana Prime (and countless melee with blood rush), Quanta Vandal and I am sure im missing a few more.

Then you also have frames which buff damage in one fashion or another such as Rhino, Banshee and Chroma.

IN the end, if the only weapon you can use to fight in endgame content is the tonkor, then maybe you shouldnt be doing endgame content yet.

[WARLOCKE]

Also Tonkor will NEVER get nerfed, Trust me on this. It will however get out cheesed at some point in the future.

[(PSN)AngelShur]

Just Updated the OP with suggestions.

[TheBrsrkr]

16 minutes ago, (PS4)Nukerxero123 said:

If you don't want to use the weapon dont, why you got to be such a whiny little brat. Don't use the weapon, let the others use the weapon and enjoy it. 

Because I play this game all by myself, and never interact with any other players in any discernable way, right? It's like you all forget what multiplayer means.

I actually like the Tonkor and it's mechanics, I just don't like that it derps literally everything, so I don't use it outside of for giggles. Does that mean that it doesn't affect me at all? I have to play with Tonkor users against the same enemies. How do you think that works out? In fact, just take me out of the equation, and insert a guy who just hit MR5. He's got a Karak or a Latron or something like that. Enter Tonkor user. Who's going to end up doing nothing? What about those lower level players who like melee? Do they not get a say here? What about those who came to test out a new weapon or something, and can't kill anything because everything dies as soon as you walk into a room? People don't typically keep running when they enter a room,  they slow down and take stock of the surroundings and enemies, so that they don't die. Plenty enough time for a Tonkor to wipe the room with 2 shots and move on. End of mission results are only half the story.  This is a problem. 

[(PSN)Nukerxero123]

Just now, TheBrsrkr said:

Because I play this game all by myself, and never interact with any other players in any discernable way, right? It's like you all forget what multiplayer means.

I actually like the Tonkor and it's mechanics, I just don't like that it derps literally everything, so I don't use it outside of for giggles. Does that mean that it doesn't affect me at all? I have to play with Tonkor users against the same enemies. How do you think that works out? In fact, just take me out of the equation, and insert a guy who just hit MR5. He's got a Karak or a Latron or something like that. Enter Tonkor user. Who's going to end up doing nothing? What about those lower level players who like melee? Do they not get a say here? What about those who came to test out a new weapon or something, and can't kill anything because everything dies as soon as you walk into a room? People don't typically keep running when they enter a room,  they slow down and take stock of the surroundings and enemies, so that they don't die. Plenty enough time for a Tonkor to wipe the room with 2 shots and move on. End of mission results are only half the story.  This is a problem. 

Solo *cough* Solo. Go do it alone. It is a multiplayer game so you play it with random people. Thats what public refers to in game. If they have a problem friends exist too and they can decide the loadouts. Or solo.