DE: Sibear and Vauban Prime just revealed a very important problem in Warframe

[TyrannRedeagle]

I think a lot of people were expecting to get new items at day one. It is setting yourselves for disappointment.

A possible "high costing items" trend continuation could cause even more grind than now and I don't want that. I know warframe has problems with repetitive content. Playing 20 minutes in the void and just getting fusion cores is a frustrating experience, I know this too.

^ But these are the problems, devs needs fixing. "I can't build the latest weapon with a day of farming" type of arguments don't help anything at all. I played a ton of mmos and f2p games, not one of them gives you free access to all content, all armor, all weapon in day one(or in one week) for all players. I got two of the vauban parts already. And I am not even farming them. I am not saying RNG help all of you similarly but you can't even equip many things in swtor unless you are a paying customer.

We really should be looking for the fixes for the real problems such as having new quests, new maps, new mission types, more involved invasions, alternative places for resources(such as oxium), getting rid of repetitive void structure, key and prime parts RNG drop fixes etc. Just lowering costs for some items will not resolve any real issues of the game(except it will enable you to grab "one" item quickly and probably would let you forget about it that much sooner).

Other games has much more grindy work than warframe. But they tend to hide it behind long and involved questlines, more varied type of events and they give variety of options to do on that day. I believe warframe needs some of that treatment.

[(XBOX)R3d P01nt]

4 minutes ago, shiinigamy said:

To be honest, i don't think there is a single thing that is too hard to obtain in Warframe, maybe its just me being used to games that lock content behind huge grind/farm/RNG wall.
 On another note: Isn't that ok ? do you think you should be on equal level of progress when you play lets say 2~3 hours per day, against someone that play 7 hours per day ? its just logical that people who play more the game, can obtain stuff easier because they already have the resources, what i think is realy wrong, is locking content by making it something like "only one run per day" and try to get players that play less, in equal grounds with players that spend all day in the game, if you play more, you should be rewarded for that, and that is it.

I don't know if I'd say that anything is too hard to obtain, just too grindy in only a few cases.  I am concerned about grind creep, however.

As for progression, I'm not claiming that someone who plays less time should be on equal level of progress as someone who plays more.  And, yes, I agree that people who play more will generally have an easier time obtaining equipment.  I don't mind that people have stockpiles of mats for instantly building the latest and greatest stuff as soon as it comes out - more power to them.  I do have a problem with stuff coming out that caters to that and creates resource sinks because someone somewhere decided that having tons of cryotic was somehow bad and that that cryotic needed to be used.  Why?  I try to stockpile resources myself (I've got 47 Nitain right now, although I haven't built any Vauban Prime parts yet) so that I can simply build stuff as soon as it gets released.  But, I also understand that other players may not have that luxury, and I see a need for DE to balance things such that it's not off-putting to players who don't have stockpiles of mats.  Does that make sense?

[(XBOX)R3d P01nt]

3 minutes ago, (PS4)obsidiancurse said:

Isn't this whole thread a false premise? The game is essentially a "loot 'em up", albeit hidden behind an extremely attractive and engaging front end. Given that, there would be a problem if there wasn't a disparity between vets and newbies. A player of 3 years should have a lot more resources than a player of 3 days/weeks/months. It's the nature of the beast.

newbies have a thousand and one things to learn/acquire/build, worrying about just the latest weapon/frame is like a pre-schooler worrying about their mortgage deposit, it's not something that need concern them right now.

Except beyond the MR locks on some items, there's nothing in the game to say that Sibear is a vet-only weapon.

[GreyEnneract]

3 minutes ago, (PS4)obsidiancurse said:

Isn't this whole thread a false premise? The game is essentially a "loot 'em up", albeit hidden behind an extremely attractive and engaging front end. Given that, there would be a problem if there wasn't a disparity between vets and newbies. A player of 3 years should have a lot more resources than a player of 3 days/weeks/months. It's the nature of the beast.

newbies have a thousand and one things to learn/acquire/build, worrying about just the latest weapon/frame is like a pre-schooler worrying about their mortgage deposit, it's not something that need concern them right now.

The only disparity here in the case of Vauban is the resource cost.

If his stats were actually buffed accordingly then the costs would be fine.

[Hixlysss]

I think the resource problem could be dealt with if we had "sinks" for resources. Something we can dump most/all of a specific resource into for something in return. It would be nice if we could donate resources to syndicates for standing, or if we could TRADE RESOURCES WITH OTHER PLAYERS FINALLY!

Honestly, we need trading to be opened up to allow resources and all warframe/weapon parts, perhaps even moving on to being able to trade catalyst/reactors.

But we do need what I'd like to call, resource toilets. Dump your excess alloyplate down the Ceph Suda toilet, get some extra standing with them, so on and so forth.

[Slaviar]

With resources requirements constantly growing I think DE should rethink plat prices- both in case of market items and plat itself. Most market weapon are stupidly expensive- come on, 165p for Sibear? As far as I know- I can be wrong though- vaulted Prime weapons don't cost that much.  How DE can hope for players to take shortcut (read: buy stuff at market) if prices are that high? It feels like newbie trap. I really think market weapons shouldn't cost more than 50p and frames- 100p. To balance it, DE could remove potato and slot coming with purchase.

As for resources themselves- yes, players farming cores have more cryotic (and potentially Oxium) they can possibly spend. Similar with Draco and Orokin Cells. And every player and Alloy Plate. Obviously they see more Nitain. But should build requirements really be balanced towards them? I'm playing for quite some time but I'm largely burnt out, don't really like Excavation and rarely fight vs Corpus so I don't have much of neither Cryotic or Oxium and since I'm not logging very frequently I lack Alertium.

And Vauban Prime's high resource cost is clearly Prime Access bait. Extremely disgusting one. 15 Alertium+7k Oxium+9k Cryotic? Why not 30 days build time? Feels almost like these P2W mobile games. Not to even mention Vauban PA won't be around forever.
DE in general seems to do a lot of suspcious things with Prime Access recently. First Carrier Prime "missing" from lower tier Ash PA, then lack of Kavasa gene masking from Trinity Prime accessories, now this...

[(XBOX)R3d P01nt]

3 minutes ago, TyrannRedeagle said:

 

 "I can't build the latest weapon with a day of farming" type of arguments don't help anything at all.

I agree with pretty much everything you say, except the above.  Who is making those arguments?  Reading the thread, I'd be tempted to think that everyone who has ever asked for any reduction in mats cost is making this argument (including me) but if you actually read what people are saying, no one (maybe a small handful at most) is actually saying this.

[GreyEnneract]

1 minute ago, Slaviar said:

With resources requirements constantly growing I think DE should rethink plat prices- both in case of market items and plat itself. Most market weapon are stupidly expensive- come on, 165p for Sibear? As far as I know- I can be wrong though- vaulted Prime weapons don't cost that much.  How DE can hope for players to take shortcut (read: buy stuff at market) if prices are that high? It feels like newbie trap. I really think market weapons shouldn't cost more than 50p and frames- 100p. To balance it, DE could remove potato and slot coming with purchase.

As for resources themselves- yes, players farming cores have more cryotic (and potentially Oxium) they can possibly spend. Similar with Draco and Orokin Cells. And every player and Alloy Plate. Obviously they see more Nitain. But should build requirements really be balanced towards them? I'm playing for quite some time but I'm largely burnt out, don't really like Excavation and rarely fight vs Corpus so I don't have much of neither Cryotic or Oxium and since I'm not logging very frequently I lack Alertium.

And Vauban Prime's high resource cost is clearly Prime Access bait. Extremely disgusting one. 15 Alertium+7k Oxium+9k Cryotic? Why not 30 days build time? Feels almost like these P2W mobile games. Not to even mention Vauban PA won't be around forever.
DE in general seems to do a lot of suspcious things with Prime Access recently. First Carrier Prime "missing" from lower tier Ash PA, then lack of Kavasa gene masking from Trinity Prime accessories, now this...

DE is already reworking the market visually and price wise.

Will it be better? Who knows.

[Slaviar]

12 minutes ago, GreyEnneract said:

DE is already reworking the market visually and price wise.

Will it be better? Who knows.

They also keep saying they'll lower grind

[.Themis.]

1 minute ago, Rikov said:

I think the resource problem could be dealt with if we had "sinks" for resources. Something we can dump most/all of a specific resource into for something in return. It would be nice if we could donate resources to syndicates for standing, or if we could TRADE RESOURCES WITH OTHER PLAYERS FINALLY!

Honestly, we need trading to be opened up to allow resources and all warframe/weapon parts, perhaps even moving on to being able to trade catalyst/reactors.

But we do need what I'd like to call, resource toilets. Dump your excess alloyplate down the Ceph Suda toilet, get some extra standing with them, so on and so forth.

I agree with this, if DE is raising mat costs on new weapons to use as resource/credit sink, them its bad, being able to trade would be amazing, since most of the time i'm only fooling around in the void, so i end-up with thousands upon thousands of drops from there, but nothing else, i don't have Oxium/Polymer and stuff, so trading for me would be a huge win.

[Xekrin]

4 hours ago, Violetear said:

DE, players are not all equal and for the good of the game you should stop treating them like they are. Are they all capable of reaching the peak of the mountain? Absolutely. Should they all be treated like they are in the peak or at the bottom? Absolutely not

Wow, 6 pages in 3 hours.  I read two pages before my eyes started bleeding and decided to reply myself.

You make several good points beyond the "vauban & sibear costs" dilemma, too bad most of what you are trying to address will be lost in the wave of people talking of nothing beyond the resources and grind, which I feel is such a small part of the problem here.

Ah well.

[Madway7]

6 minutes ago, shiinigamy said:

I agree with this, if DE is raising mat costs on new weapons to use as resource/credit sink, them its bad, being able to trade would be amazing, since most of the time i'm only fooling around in the void, so i end-up with thousands upon thousands of drops from there, but nothing else, i don't have Oxium/Polymer and stuff, so trading for me would be a huge win.

I actually accumulated 25k polymer bundles over a couple of months with a Titan extractor twice daily on Mercury (used the Nexus app on my phone so I don't have to be playing). For farming I think Uranus survival might be best.

As for the Oxium I think a well suited group for farming should net a fair amount on Cerberus Pluto.

Edited May 19, 2016 by Madway7

[(PSN)obsidiancurse]

8 minutes ago, (XB1)R3d P01nt said:

Except beyond the MR locks on some items, there's nothing in the game to say that Sibear is a vet-only weapon.

Except it's build requirements and thus the whole point of this thread?

[polarity]

21 minutes ago, TyrannRedeagle said:

Other games has much more grindy work than warframe. But they tend to hide it behind long and involved questlines, more varied type of events and they give variety of options to do on that day. I believe warframe needs some of that treatment.

World of Warcraft:

Dragonwrath, Tarecgosa's Rest - Sure it's an awesome questline for a legendary weapon, but it's also boring for the most-part, as you're just doing the same raid over and over and over, and you're limited to doing it once a week.

Vial of the Sands, for the Sandstone Drake passenger mount - First you need to do archaeology sites until you've raised your archaeology skill to 450, and farm materials and craft alchemy items until you have 525 alchemy.  Then the recipe has a 10% chance to come from a Canopic Jar, which has a 12% chance to be the artifact you're currently working on made from Tol'vir fragments, which only drop in the Uldum map zone, which you have a 13% chance of getting a digsite in, of which you need to complete 3-4 times to make one jar.  If you don't have any digsites present in Uldum, you have to fly all over the map completing other digsites until one spawns.  The average time to get the recipe is 1200 hours of doing nothing but taking taxi flights from one end of the continent to the other, and hunting for artifacts in digsites.  It's about as boring as mining in EVE online.  And then once you've got the recipe you also need to gather a ton of materials to make it.

Why would anyone bother to do this?

Because it gives you something to be proud of.  Making things easy to get devalues them.

Giving things a real world cost as an alternative to grind would devalue them in a subscription game, but in an f2p game it still gives you something to be proud of, because it shows you actually bothered to support the game.

 

Edited May 19, 2016 by polarity

[YasaiTsume]

I can understand the OP's point of view, as well as many players who have trouble with the resource gathering, but I would like to remind that once again, Warframe is :

1. Free To Play, which with no doubt needs grind to balance out the content without just spoon feeding it to players.

2. Many excellent weapons require less grind, do not be too upset about not being able to grab the next new toy

3. Primed Warframes do not offer different abilities than the Normal Variant, do not be too upset about not being able to build them, it is just mainly a few minor stat buffs. Work hard and be rewarded.

4. Warframe is trapped in the "endgame" spotlight which it is trying really hard to break out of as opposed to other MMOs. 

People should to try and break out of the MMO habit of "Planning ahead, plan for endgame" routine for Warframe.

Warframe has enough weapons in the mid tier level easily accessible to even newbies. This is very lenient on them as opposed to other games where newbies will try really really hard to catch up and can't keep up with the veterans. 

Warframe is the sort of game where, 1 leveled frame + 1 leveled weapon + a good basic set of mods = able to tackle Level 30~40 content alongside the majority of the community. 

(Really don't wanna talk about mod farming but DE should really just give all players who finish Vor's prize a basic set of mods, considering how much the game has evolved already) 

 

Now the important part:

Here is the real deal of why it matters if items are gated : Mastery Points

People can't get it out of their head that they need to keep ranking up and keep trying to go for he level cap. Mastery Rank has repeatedly been proven to not have very heavy implications on gameplay, only gating players from a select few weapons usually around Rank 8 and Rank 12. 

Like seriously, it is not a race to see who can finish all content first, it is just a track record of how many weapons the player has handled.

Given, I do understand that some players prefer to collect and track progression, but hey the road is long, play the game a little longer, don't try and rush it. 

 

Side note :  Please let players trade resources. I can suggest a Credits x Trade Currency x Resources x Boosters(or cosmetics or wadevers) but meh, I have oxium, yu have Plastids, let's trade bro. 

Edited May 19, 2016 by YasaiTsume

[(XBOX)R3d P01nt]

9 minutes ago, (PS4)obsidiancurse said:

Except it's build requirements and thus the whole point of this thread?

Then give it a MR requirement that tells new players that they aren't welcome or encouraged to try this weapon out.

ETA: It's MR 6 locked, which is too low for a "vet-only" weapon.

Edit2:  I don't think DE is really looking to make "elite" level weapons that are only available to hardcore players...or maybe they are.  Who knows?

Edited May 19, 2016 by (XB1)R3d P01nt
Added info

[S0V3REiGN]

15 minutes ago, (XB1)R3d P01nt said:

Then give it a MR requirement that tells new players that they aren't welcome or encouraged to try this weapon out.

ETA: It's MR 6 locked, which is too low for a "vet-only" weapon.

Edit2:  I don't think DE is really looking to make "elite" level weapons that are only available to hardcore players...or maybe they are.  Who knows?

They didn't say anything making elite weapons but releasing content specifically for their vets is part of Steve's Bourbon list. 

Edited May 19, 2016 by S0V3REiGN

[EmptyDevil]

I don't really see a problem in the build costs at all; They seem more geared toward players that have been playing a lot longer.

As for Vauban Prime and his build requirements, only the Nitain could be considered an issue for people with minimal playtime. A player should be able to easily acquire the Oxium amount in a reasonable time. Also, new players shouldn't be thinking about farming for Vauban Prime if it's going to put a dent in their resources. What they need to do is get the normal Vauban first, which highlights a problem - he is tied entirely to alerts and the market. DE should consider changing the normal Vauban to clantech, so they have a much easier way to get the normal variant before the prime.

We should keep in mind DE mentioned that new players will have to unlock the Void by completing the new star chart. I'm sure the player would have a lot of resources by the time they unlock it. That is assuming they don't skip planets.

[(XBOX)EternalDrk Mako]

3 minutes ago, EmptyDevil said:

I don't really see a problem in the build costs at all; They seem more geared toward players that have been playing a lot longer.

As for Vauban Prime and his build requirements, only the Nitain could be considered an issue for people with minimal playtime. A player should be able to easily acquire the Oxium amount in a reasonable time. Also, new players shouldn't be thinking about farming for Vauban Prime if it's going to put a dent in their resources. What they need to do is get the normal Vauban first, which highlights a problem - he is tied entirely to alerts and the market. DE should consider changing the normal Vauban to clantech, so they have a much easier way to get the normal variant before the prime.

We should keep in mind DE mentioned that new players will have to unlock the Void by completing the new star chart. I'm sure the player would have a lot of resources by the time they unlock it. That is assuming they don't skip planets.

and the new starchart should prevent that as well with the whole guide lines to next planet and such (skipping planets part) 

 

Edited May 19, 2016 by (XB1)EternalDrk Mako

[EmptyDevil]

1 minute ago, (XB1)EternalDrk Mako said:

and the new starchart should prevent that as well with the whole guide lines to next planet and such (skipping planets part) 

 

I'm aware of the pathing, but that didn't stop taxi travel in the old star chart IIRC. DE will likely prevent it in the new chart this time around.

[(XBOX)EternalDrk Mako]

Just now, EmptyDevil said:

I'm aware of the pathing, but that didn't stop taxi travel in the old star chart IIRC. DE will likely prevent it in the new chart this time around.

here is hoping 

[Rakosta_Kai]

23 minutes ago, (XB1)R3d P01nt said:

No, I don't. Yes, you do. 

 I do think some items have mat requirements that are too high, here we go...

but in no way did I say that I want everything to be a snap to acquire. OK

That's something you made up, because it fits your agenda and your preconceived notions of putting people into generalized groups. I haven't put one soul into any group... I noted the trend of complaints on the forums... Who's making stuff up exactly? 

30K for the Sibear is too much IMO, but I never advocated that it be given to me. Good for you.. So you want to work some for it... Gotcha.

I don't know what the proper amount should be, but again, that's not the same as claiming that it should be given to me. Anyone see a trend here? 

Why do you not understand that?  (Note, if you look at other interactions I've had on this thread, I've even talked about how more powerful weapons should have higher mat costs, but hey, what's nuance when you can just put me in a box and then ignore me?) I haven't bothered to look at your posts, do they all blame DE for not making getting the items easier?

Secondly, speaking up and giving my opinion is nuts?  If no one ever gave any feedback, how would DE know what the player base is thinking?  If we all just sit down and shut up, we'll continue to get rising material costs, because no one is telling DE their opinion on the matter. I gave my opinion on the trend of opinions on the forums currently. If you feel your comments resemble those remarks... That's unfortunate... I am not, have not, and would not impede your ability to share your opinions. I am confused that you have chosen to internalize mine and attack me for them though. So your opinions have value but my opinions of the trend on the forums doesn't? That's a bit of a double standard, don't you think?

That's true.  I still feel like you're skirting the line when it's coupled with the generalizations that you're engaging in, however. You feel like I am skirting a line because you chose to take offense

Good for them.  No, really, I'm glad for them.  I don't particularly like doing excavations, so being forced into a game mode that isn't my cup of tea is not something I've been doing, hence I don't have 1 million cryotic sitting around.  If cryotic were obtainable other ways, we probably wouldn't be having this conversation (or at least this part of the conversation).  I may still choose to farm the cryotic (although I spent quite a bit on Fomorian Disruptors and will now spedn 9k on Vauban Prime) or I might decide to buy it from the market if I get a discount. See my comments on what it means to undertake getting the items you want via gameplay means. 

Either way, I get your point loud and clear.  You don't seem to get mine (of which there are quite a few).  Please don't generalize and deride other tenno for having different opinions from you (and deride them in the process, which is a bit hypocritical, don't you think?)  Also, remember that your game experiences are not the arbiter of everyone's game experience.  That you might have time to sit and farm endlessly doesn't mean that everyone does.  Lastly, don't use shaming tactics to try and suppress the opinions of others.  Again, if your opinions and arguments can stand on their own merit, you shouldn't need to engage in such tactics. I shared my opinions directly, if you took offense it was because you literally chose to take offense.  My comment dealt directly with the trend of complaints on the forums currently.

You need to stop conflating my comments into a personal attack.

That's simply not true, and you know it.

Actually, it was entirely true... At the time I wrote that there was a nitain alert on. In the time you have been on this thread you could have completed 3 rounds of earth excavation up to 1k.

You don't like Excavations? We all have to do stuff we don't like in order to get what we want unfortunately.

... I'd offer you help but get the feeling you'd take that as a personal affront to your ability to do it yourself.

Replies in body.

I don't feel like fiddling with multi-quotes as it's too much work today.

 

Regards!

[T7Alpha]

56 minutes ago, CaliburxZero said:

I was curious on opinions of both sides of this argument but I gotta say... you don't have to agree with what people say, but this is just outright toxic behavior.

You reply to my one post twice, just going to keep trying until you make yourself sound intelligent? The person I posted that too was being extremely argumentative and intentionally inflaming the community on an issue the devs have made their stance very clear on; I responded accordingly. It's easy to take the high horse and call someone toxic when you have made no contribution.

[(XBOX)Rey Za BurreI]

4 hours ago, Tesseract7777 said:

You want new stuff in a free game? Either pay money or put in some serious effort.

Well sorry, but some people aren't dishing out $80 to $140 on a single character in a game, that you probably won't care about in the next month( ie saryn prime). Being a F2P is no excuse for having such high cost to build items. They didn't have these unreasonably high cost before, so why start now?

[polarity]

Nitain is more of an issue for people who only think to start collecting when they have a need for it, instead of stockpiling it whenever they get the chance, because it might be needed in future.

The same kind of short-sightedness can be seen in those complaining about getting vauban parts and building him.

If you're going to buy the blueprints you'll need plat, which you can get selling rarer mods, perhaps levelled, or prime parts.  To get those you'll need void keys or fusion cores, so you'll be farming triton or hieracon to get them.  What do you get from those missions?  Cryotic and Oxium.

If you're not buying the blueprints but farming them yourself, you'll still need keys, so again you'll be off to triton and hieracon.