DE: Sibear and Vauban Prime just revealed a very important problem in Warframe

[-Temp0-]

Just now, Tesseract7777 said:

What's your reasoning for your statement? I gave a long tl;dr for mine multiple times over. Your reasoning is "I'm right your wrong". Please, explain yourself fully. 

Can you give me a detailed reason why Warframe is pay to win or becoming it? Because even the most hardened anti-grind folks usually vehemently disagree with WF being P2W -- whatever WF's faults are, that is not one of them. 

Two, yes it's free to play, but some people seem to think that money and funding just falls from the sky

And some people think that players actually owe DE something, even tho they make little effort to make game better or make our lives better. Instead of doing what every developer whould do - create more actual content, more missions, new quest they just keep making frames and make a game of grind. And for every person who says that "every MMO is like this" it's very far from reality.

This is what warframe looks. This is what really is. And those are it's problems.

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WF has become more grinder over time, and WF has also become more popular at the same time.

And at the same time more veteran players ragequit or drop it, some permanently and some just time from time, returning only for alrets and big updates.

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I see a lot of complaining, but I don't see anyone offering a real solution. How do you make stuff super easy to get in a game that costs nothing, and still convince whales to spend money on it?

It's very effing easy. Prime accesses, fashion frame. If you will try to push down the players throats more than fansy cosmetics, you will eventually fail. 

[(PSN)robotwars7]

I think they need to start toning down build requirements. or at least do some research as to what players usually have lots of *cough* Alloy Plate *cough* and base any ridiculous requirements on those materials, rather than ones that are harder to acquire. how many of us have literally MILLIONS of Alloy Plate from our slogs in the Void before it was more recently changed to Ferrite? I'd be fine with something costing thousands of Alloy Plate, but thousands of Oxium is a bit of an annoyance to say the least, and not everybody knows about or wants to farm places like Cerberus.

I wonder how much Nitain the Fairy Frame will need.... 30? 40? more?

 

[Tesseract7777]

8 minutes ago, Nomen_Nescio said:

And some people think that players actually owe DE something, even tho they make little effort to make game better or make our lives better. Instead of doing what every developer whould do - create more actual content, more missions, new quest they just keep making frames and make a game of grind. And for every person who says that "every MMO is like this" it's very far from reality.

This is what warframe looks. This is what really is. And those are it's problems.

And at the same time more veteran players ragequit or drop it, some permanently and some just time from time, returning only for alrets and big updates.

It's very effing easy. Prime accesses, fashion frame. If you will try to push down the players throats more than fansy cosmetics, you will eventually fail. 

 

They create all those things. They are currently working on cinematic quests and have been upping their game a lot. In fact they have been working hard to create new content for every single facet of the game constantly, while listening to player feedback more than almost any dev team ever. After that claim it is clear you are not being reasonable... 

DE is not here to "make your life better" wow. They are here to make an enjoyable entertainment product and make a living doing it. They do not think you owe them anything, and they owe you nothing. While they care about their customers and do try to please us, at the end of the day they are an entertainment business that needs to make a profit to stay viable. 

Again, you keep stating things as if they are fact without giving any reason, and think that somehow gets somewhere. You don't just say "no WF isn't like most MMO's, it's way worse" and not explain why. Give your reasoning. I did. 

You aren't even making sense in your last sentence. You basically just said that the game can survive alone on prime access and cosmetics, while asking for the stuff available from prime access to be way easier to get. Do you not see the problem here? Do you not see the logical disconnect? If you make those things too easy to get, people won't BUY the Prime Access, and when they get buyers remorse from that, they won't buy the fashion cosmetics either. And no game survives long on just money from cosmetics alone. 

Please, give me something REAL. That wasn't even close to an explanation for how you can make WF viable as a business with no grind (short of a monthyl subcription fee or something). 

With all respect I'm not going to watch some random video, please sum up it's points in your own words and why they are important. I'm not even in a good place to watch videos right now. 

And btw, while some players may quit or leave for and only come back for events, it doesn't change the fact that despite your statements, WF is more popular than ever. So your argument still holds no water at all. 

Edited May 19, 2016 by Tesseract7777

[Zoracraft]

The amount of straw man arguments in this thread is real.

 

No one wants new players to get Vauban Prime "on the first day" (although I think people grossly inflate how much new players can do at the start). However, that doesn't mean it's excusable for DE to keep moving the goalposts with these crafting requirements. Sibear was sort of excusable: It is a very good weapon, so it makes sense that the crafting requirements would be steep, even if they were so steep that they were an underhanded attempt to use up veteran material supplies. However, this oxium is only a part of a part of the resource requirements for Vauban prime. We also have 20 alertium (grrr), more cryotic, and quite a bit of salvage and rubedo (although they shouldn't be as much of an issue).

 

The problem isn't that vauban is expensive. It's that while DE have been supposedly "reducing the grind", they have been throwing out these incredible crafting requirements that target, and are balanced around, veterans. Noobs play this game too, and if DE keeps this act up, we'll get more people like Totalbiscuit's wife who get repulsed when they try to get what they want.

 

TL:DR- No one wants vauban prime to be so easy to get that his stuff just falls from the sky. However, we have to keep in mind that people are joining warframe as we speak. If we continue to antagonize and repulse them to appease veterans, our community will end up like CS:GO's. DE has to stop raising crafting costs, and find a good way to make progression in this game not annoying.

[Fionntan]

16 minutes ago, Tesseract7777 said:

 

They create all those things. They are currently working on cinematic quests and have been upping their game a lot. In fact they have been working hard to create new content for every single facet of the game constantly, while listening to player feedback more than almost any dev team ever. After that claim it is clear you are not being reasonable... 

DE is not here to "make your life better" wow. They are here to make an enjoyable entertainment product and make a living doing it. They do not think you owe them anything, and they owe you nothing. While they care about their customers and do try to please us, at the end of the day they are an entertainment business that needs to make a profit to stay viable. 

Again, you keep stating things as if they are fact without giving any reason, and think that somehow gets somewhere. You don't just say "no WF isn't like most MMO's, it's way worse" and not explain why. Give your reasoning. I did. 

You aren't even making sense in your last sentence. You basically just said that the game can survive alone on prime access and cosmetics, while asking for the stuff available from prime access to be way easier to get. Do you not see the problem here? Do you not see the logical disconnect? If you make those things too easy to get, people won't BUY the Prime Access, and when they get buyers remorse from that, they won't buy the fashion cosmetics either. And no game survives long on just money from cosmetics alone. 

Please, give me something REAL. That wasn't even close to an explanation for how you can make WF viable as a business with no grind (short of a monthyl subcription fee or something). 

With all respect I'm not going to watch some random video, please sum up it's points in your own words and why they are important. I'm not even in a good place to watch videos right now. 

And btw, while some players may quit or leave for and only come back for events, it doesn't change the fact that despite your statements, WF is more popular than ever. So your argument still holds no water at all. 

 

Nuff said

[(XBOX)BULLS 0N PAR4DE]

8 hours ago, Violetear said:

But let us back up first and return to the Sibear; the requirement of 30,000 Cryotic translates to 30 excavation runs of 10 excavators each, a middle level mission (Zeugma, Phobos) takes around 24 minutes to complete 10 excavators in an optimal situation, 4 player squad with either a Vauban or a Frost and some weapons with at least a 6+ base damage mod. This 4-man elite squad would get the required Cryotic in around 720 minutes or 12 hours.

 Or better yet when DE has a resource weekend spend 40 plat and get a 2X resource booster to stack it to 4X. So now your 12 hours becomes 4..... I swear this is the such a salty group of players... Everyone wants it now now now. I think DE goes over board a little from time to time but mostly its alright.

[Hypernaut1]

WF isnt getting "grindier". A new player will have an even easier time aquiring all of the items available from 2-3 years ago. Its not getting harder at all (minus prime vault). They have indeed reduced the grind.

What Is happening is that DE is beginning to create long term goal content. I rember when oxium was hard to get. 300 oxium was massive,  now it's a piece of cake and a new player can build wyrm easily.  How is that "more grindy"? 

They are not all of a sudden in love with nitian to make our lives difficult. Its part of the game and a resource theyre currently developing content for. They need to keep it relevant. 

A few years ago, as a new player, the significance of alerts suddenly dropped off at a point for me. Nitian keeps that excitement going for new players. New content like Vauban tells them that everything they do will progress them towards something. 

Some of you are just too myopic to see the bigger picture. DE is just at a point where they are creating the latter half of a 1000+ hr game. You dont do that by making everything a short term goal. Whats happening is eventually everything you do will be building towards something. A new player doesnt need to stress about Vauban P because they have a ton of other goals they can accomplish while they save up for it.

Edited May 19, 2016 by Hypernaut1

[Slaviar]

Hmmm.... Now when I think of it, I really don't need Vauban Prime. Hell, I don't even need normal Vauban. And I don't need most of my frames and weapons. One frame and one weapon of each category is definitely enough. But hey, I don't need to do sorties so one weapon is enough!

But do you know what I've just realised?

I don't need Warframe at all!

I don't need video games no more!

Do I need to continue or my point got through? I don't need anything DE does. But they need me and thousands of other paying players to keep their company running.

 

PS This song just got stuck in my brain while writing this post:

Spoiler

 

 

 

[Fionntan]

6 minutes ago, Judgebanks said:

To be fair I doubt I would've lasted that long if I had just picked the game up for the first time.

The game's balance is virtually non-existent, and because of that challenge is practically non-existent. Without challenge what is a player left with? Tedium. Do you really want to play game where there's nothing to look forward to except grinding?

Razorback was almost a good boss, but once again balance wasn't given full attention.

This game might as well be some sort of mobile game in which you collect resources and build stuff ad infinitum.

:/ yea that's one thing I agree, there's no middle ground & on new stuff from time to time it makes it very apperant

[Kevyne_Kicklighter]

5 hours ago, (XB1)R3d P01nt said:

I don't know if I'd say that anything is too hard to obtain, just too grindy in only a few cases.  I am concerned about grind creep, however.

As for progression, I'm not claiming that someone who plays less time should be on equal level of progress as someone who plays more.  And, yes, I agree that people who play more will generally have an easier time obtaining equipment.  I don't mind that people have stockpiles of mats for instantly building the latest and greatest stuff as soon as it comes out - more power to them.  I do have a problem with stuff coming out that caters to that and creates resource sinks because someone somewhere decided that having tons of cryotic was somehow bad and that that cryotic needed to be used.  Why?  I try to stockpile resources myself (I've got 47 Nitain right now, although I haven't built any Vauban Prime parts yet) so that I can simply build stuff as soon as it gets released.  But, I also understand that other players may not have that luxury, and I see a need for DE to balance things such that it's not off-putting to players who don't have stockpiles of mats.  Does that make sense?

The issue is people already farmed many mats passively simply playing the game, especially vets. If DE used the same crafting requirements as frames 2 PAs ago, the frame might as well simply be given away. No Christmas, just another freebie along the roadside to pick up and disregard for the next shiny. That's the extreme of access.

So logically even they put a gate in to make the frame something more important than the next goodie bag. So even vets have to get out into the world to farm for it, along with the newbie.

Warframe is much better than some games where people would have to stop playing the fun part of the game, and spend days competing over nodes just to get 1 piece of gear crafted. Our mats come passively, with more for those who do more, which is a nice balance of access and reward. People don't even have to specifically farm for mats, it comes from simply playing the game itself.

Now some won't want to grind or wait and they will buy the new frame. Others (who know the F2P concept of free = grind for it even or games won't be able to exist if the paychecks don't come) just have to play catch up, and get it the old fashion way, by grinding for it (and truly the mat requirements isn't that difficult. Even a casual player can get all within a week passively).

Get out and play, the mats will be there and not interfere with your playtime even.

[Judgebanks]

2 minutes ago, Kevyne_Kicklighter said:

The issue is people already farmed many mats passively simply playing the game, especially vets. If DE used the same crafting requirements as frames 2 PAs ago, the frame might as well simply be given away. No Christmas, just another freebie along the roadside to pick up and disregard for the next shiny. That's the extreme of access.

So logically even they put a gate in to make the frame something more important than the next goodie bag. So even vets have to get out into the world to farm for it, along with the newbie.

Warframe is much better than some games where people would have to stop playing the fun part of the game, and spend days competing over nodes just to get 1 piece of gear crafted. Our mats come passively, with more for those who do more, which is a nice balance of access and reward. People don't even have to specifically farm for mats, it comes from simply playing the game itself.

Now some won't want to grind or wait and they will buy the new frame. Others (who know the F2P concept of free = grind for it even or games won't be able to exist if the paychecks don't come) just have to play catch up, and get it the old fashion way, by grinding for it (and truly the mat requirements isn't that difficult. Even a casual player can get all within a week passively).

Get out and play, the mats will be there and not interfere with your playtime even.

Another thought, if we stop playing, they'll stop increasing the material cost. After all "Passively Playing" is what got us into this situation in the first place.

[Kevyne_Kicklighter]

Just now, Judgebanks said:

Another thought, if we stop playing, they'll stop increasing the material cost. After all "Passively Playing" is what got us into this situation in the first place.

So extortion is the method of "MY way or the highway"? -_-

This isn't like taking flight out of WoW, for example. Nothing is taken from you. There's no 12hr nights of trying to get one ore and one crafting element for 1 piece of gear, either. All mats are passively there for players to get, and v-e-r-y casually a player can get the mats just pewpewpewing.

[Judgebanks]

Just now, Kevyne_Kicklighter said:

So extortion is the method of "MY way or the highway"? -_-

This isn't like taking flight out of WoW, for example. Nothing is taken from you. There's no 12hr nights of trying to get one ore and one crafting element for 1 piece of gear, either. All mats are passively there for players to get, and v-e-r-y casually a player can get the mats just pewpewpewing.

So where does this leave us in the future? 36000 oxium for Zephyr Prime? 50 Alertium for Banshee Prime? Using metrics at face value without ever asking why certain value may be at what they are at is the reason why every single new Cryotic item is going to cost 5000+ from here on. In no way this is a healthy development cycle, and people have been saying this for a while. Yet, here we are still doing the same song and dance. Drew says they're listening to us, yet in reality they have been ignoring us. Maybe instead of having an ever increasing exponential grind, awful drop tables, we could get some new challenging void/derelict content.

 

Also taking Flying out of WoW was a good thing.

[xX_Eyesore_Xx]

Items power should determine its Crafting Value.

 

I think DE needs to rearrange the crafting and Value of items all across the board. Not just Vauban Prime and Sibear.

[Kevyne_Kicklighter]

14 minutes ago, Judgebanks said:

So where does this leave us in the future? 36000 oxium for Zephyr Prime? 50 Alertium for Banshee Prime? Using metrics at face value without ever asking why certain value may be at what they are at is the reason why every single new Cryotic item is going to cost 5000+ from here on. In no way this is a healthy development cycle, and people have been saying this for a while. Yet, here we are still doing the same song and dance. Drew says they're listening to us, yet in reality they have been ignoring us. Maybe instead of having an ever increasing exponential grind, awful drop tables, we could get some new challenging void/derelict content.

 

Also taking Flying out of WoW was a good thing.

The fight your fighting is political, when this issue isn't even what folks fear.

If it was like taking your landing craft away to make the game more "challenging", yeah, go for the throat! But this is a F2P fight about a boogeyman that isn't existing now.

That's the difference.

There's more important issues to fight for, things like bug fixes and polishing the mechanics, that truly impact across-the-board gameplay for everyone.

[T7Alpha]

52 minutes ago, Judgebanks said:

To be fair I doubt I would've lasted that long if I had just picked the game up for the first time.

The game's balance is virtually non-existent, and because of that challenge is practically non-existent. Without challenge what is a player left with? Tedium. Do you really want to play game where there's nothing to look forward to except grinding?

Razorback was almost a good boss, but once again balance wasn't given full attention.

This game might as well be some sort of mobile game in which you collect resources and build stuff ad infinitum.

I didn't join too long ago personally and the mystery of everything kept me going through the grind, even still I get alot of joy out of taking weird weapons through the void for slow exterminate missions, just taking cover and toying with my food so to speak, I mean obviously I could jump on the mirage simulor combo, the ash efficiency build, saryn range build etc etc etc but that is in my opinion what's really killing the game, weapons of mass destruction which you fire and forget without a need to really aim and when playing with those weapons I agree completely with your last statement.
And when playing the other way I mentioned it is only really doable solo otherwise fellow tenno just rush ahead and nuke it all and then call you bad for doing 7% damage, that's not really something I think DE can control though.

In regard to vauban, I have been doing the void for the last few hours between posts and I already have a surplus of blueprints; quite generous drops if you ask me.

Unrelated:
Seeing this grind be compared to WoW saddens me; did none of you ever farm fangs of the father? shadowmourne? have you forgotten the grind to earn your 5k epic flying? oxium and cryotic pale in comparison and prime frames are essentially the legendary weapons of WF.

Edited May 19, 2016 by T7Alpha

[OfPowerOfWant]

I really don't understand why the total number of a single resource needs to scale i.e 7k - 14k, it breaks continuity in costs of the frame, like they are "New Releases" in-game. Like each time they find one the cost magically leaps, seems like it creates a "timeline" of discovery and price scaling as if they are being revealed in order of cost not importance to the narrative. Where it should seem like they have all been discovered already and we are just reviewing the story in order of importance.

Seems like increasing the the number of variety of resources needed would encourage playing the game the equal length of time but in different locations.

I'd rather play 9-12 different missions a few times than play than 1-3 missions 30 times, It gets boring fast. The keys add up fast then it's back to the same place for  the same farm to farm.

Let us pick a list of missions or the same key X number of times and not return to Liset it breaks momentum and interest

I loved the Acolyte operation, it was my favorite very variable in mission options, I like the rathum except for the constant farming of points on weaker enemies. perhaps an earth rathum or some other change of scenery, grineer shipyards are so drab and depressing
 

[Kevyne_Kicklighter]

7 minutes ago, OfPowerOfWant said:

I really don't understand why the total number of a single resource needs to scale i.e 7k - 14k, it breaks continuity in costs of the frame

Repeat. Gating.

If vets are sitting on stockpiles of mats, what incentive is there that after Dracoville one night, they'll even be in the game the next day, otherwise?

"End game" is suppose to last more than a week, you know?

[Panwich]

I don't understand why they don't just make a separate resource sink. It could be as simple as a gambling system with flat resource costs per roll. Choose what resource you'd like to roll with, and take your chances at getting some exclusive mods, past event mods, special items, and more! Obviously you'd likely just end up getting a small bit of a random resource, credits, void keys, or common mods.

Don't increase the crafting costs, you're forcing majority of players to choose between grinding up the resources and just not getting the item. I enjoy having something to work towards, but not when it requires me to grind the same thing over and over.

[Kevyne_Kicklighter]

1 minute ago, Panwich said:

I don't understand why they don't just make a separate resource sink. It could be as simple as a gambling system with flat resource costs per roll. Choose what resource you'd like to roll with, and take your chances at getting some exclusive mods, past event mods, special items, and more! Obviously you'd likely just end up getting a small bit of a random resource, credits, void keys, or common mods.

Political statements/pushes aren't about reason, it's a "stand your ground" mindset only.

Personally would like a sink for Alloy as it's just sitting there doing nothing, same with Cryoic. Where I can buy from a trader pads for it, for example.

[OfPowerOfWant]

9 minutes ago, Kevyne_Kicklighter said:

Repeat. Gating.

If vets are sitting on stockpiles of mats, what incentive is there that after Dracoville one night, they'll even be in the game the next day, otherwise?

"End game" is suppose to last more than a week, you know?

No clue how "stockpiles" of imaginary items cause any issue or the burning of them on worthless items would drive someone to invest more time in acquiring them but hey, capitalism and planned obsolescence rolls on so who am I.

Endgame is supposed to end lol thus their desire not to create it, most vets want a ++ style element level up or a whole part of the game just for them. Why everyone else needs to blow huge portions of their personal time to facilitate that particular obsession is beyond me. But that still doesn't mean that since you've played the same mission for 3yrs that you want to dump all you've gained on 1-2 fodder items and then play the same 1-3 missions 60 more times. They want actual NEW PLAYABLE content not play the same old stuff over again for a new thing.

Edited May 20, 2016 by OfPowerOfWant

[Kevyne_Kicklighter]

Just now, OfPowerOfWant said:

.Endgame is supposed to end lol

Now I know that's trolling. :plonk:

[OfPowerOfWant]

2 minutes ago, Kevyne_Kicklighter said:

Now I know that's trolling. :plonk:

No... People Say Endgame.... There is no endgame, there is no end. There is Waiting Game and escalating investment in provisions for those who wait.

[Kevyne_Kicklighter]

9 minutes ago, OfPowerOfWant said:

No... People Say Endgame.... There is no endgame, there is no end. There is Waiting Game and escalating investment in provisions for those who wait.

Every game ends.

But "end game" content is for people to have something after they got all they can already...and swimming in mats looking for sinks.

[OfPowerOfWant]

3 minutes ago, Kevyne_Kicklighter said:

Every game ends.

But "end game" content is for people to have something after they got all they can already...and swimming in mats looking for sinks.

No, every game ended before the internet... We still have at least 8 more levels since the start of their vision and if they can keep  feeding this story til the end of time and keep getting paid they'll expand it or move to the next but at this point there is no end, just growing expectations, complexity, lore, quality, tension and dwindling patience.