Where DE went wrong. Increasing grind /= more money!

[vazerd68]

14 minutes ago, DatDarkOne said:

Sadly, that doesn't work so well in the real world.  If people think they can get something (items or services) for free, they will continue to use it until it isn't free anymore.  Then complain about it not being free when the company need the revenue to survive.  I've seen it happen to many times.  It's even happened to me.  Sony's PSN is a recent example.  They had to start charging to cover the costs of increased security. 

Your suggest is nice in theory, but I wouldn't bet my next meal on it.   It's not a guaranteed survival tactic.  Well, at least not for most businesses. 

what i mean't is that the balance between farmable and incentive to pay was broken. ofc the game can't be completelly free

[(PSN)ZammnZaddy]

It seems a lot of people have no idea what P2W is because there is no winning in Warframe and their is no competition in this PVE based game.

[Rueian]

For me personally time exclusivity is the real problem with Prime Frames.  I can also see the grind being problematic because there is no set scale for what any individual item should cost for crafting.  It seems very linearly "New means more expensive" which shouldn't be the case when 'New doesn't mean stronger'

[Gulftown]

9 hours ago, tripletriple said:

Vauban might be the hardest warframe to obtain, but he doesn't cost 80 dollars, has no grind associated with his parts and has easily farmed resources.

Vauban was released in May, 2013. Back then, the required resources to craft it, even the required credits to craft it, were at the level of this (should we scale how they've increased the resource and credit gains). And now we´re talking of its Primed version.

It´s new content. Get over it. You aren't supposed to be able to craft new content easily the moment it comes. Warframe simply fell from its original standards during the recent years. I´ll make a blatant statement and assume you've never played any game beyond full casual. Seven minutes a day is absolutely no hard work. 

 

[Gulftown]

7 hours ago, (PS4)GHOSTBEAST1000 said:

It seems a lot of people have no idea what P2W is because there is no winning in Warframe and their is no competition in this PVE based game.

Not sure what you´re referring to, but there is competition. You´re just probably playing too casually to see it. There are leader boards for general activity, leader boards for events, user-created endurance challenges. Gaining any advantage with a credit card over the other players will be a huge difference in the end.

Hopefully one day when the game goes retail we´ll have more detailed competition, similar to WoW: 

[Rueian]

7 minutes ago, Siideriu said:

It´s new content. Get over it. You aren't supposed to be able to craft new content easily the moment it comes. Warframe simply fell from its original standards during the recent years. I´ll make a blatant statement and assume you've never played any game beyond full casual. Seven minutes a day is absolutely no hard work. 

 

and what about the timed exclusivity?  Primes are vaulted and leaves a finite number of sets available.

[Gulftown]

4 minutes ago, Rueian said:

and what about the timed exclusivity?  Primes are vaulted and leaves a finite number of sets available.

I´m missing the question. 

Edited May 22, 2016 by Siideriu
Probably too tired for this.

[--RV--Meta]

I decided that I'd take more than a few minutes to form my own opinion on how fair/unfair the new grind is. Now I've had a few days to mull it over and I do have my own opinion...

S'lotta RotC parts to get...

That's all, really. I'll probably be able to grind it out over the course of a handful of days to a handful of weeks personally, sure...but, like others have pointed out, in many recent DEvstreams, they've talked about reducing Void Fatigue and erm...yeah they've stepped on their feet a little bit with this one. I understand, though. I understand all sides of the issue. I can see the respective perspectives. DE's Shot-Callers (CEO, CFO, and their Knights of the Round) DEcided that a little smudge on the PR side of things was an acceptable set back if it meant they could make enough profits to keep their business in the black for the next few months, and maybe even have enough extra funding to hire more staff or purchase new equipment or something. Many of us would likely make the same choice in their position.

Does this mean the beloved DEvs we see in the DEvstreams fully support the decision handed to them? Maybe, maybe not. I'm sure they enjoy having jobs working on the game they love, and they still got to give the new content to us either way. It may have left a slightly bad taste in their mouth (hence Drew's explanation post for us), but in the end they probably didn't have a whole hell of a lot of choice in the matter. They do what they can to give us what we want, but they ultimately don't call all of the shots, or maybe even half of them.

My own opinion on it can be inferred from my small reaction statement above--lot of grinding, yep. But in the end I'll still get what I want from it, and between now and that point, I'll have farmed an absolute S#&$-load of ducat-fodder, argon, platinum-fodder...and perhaps a renewed general mild loathing for the Void. Bet you I'll have Sprinkles and his gear before they drop u19, though. ;)

Toodle-pip~

 

[Rueian]

32 minutes ago, Siideriu said:

I´m missing the question. 

Alot of people complain about the cost to craft, but think about the time cost to acquire any given item.
if you complain about crafting that means you already dealt with the only uncertain part of obtaining the frame.  Grinding for the blueprints.

not every player will be able to get the primes as there is always a finite number of blueprints on the market once it is vaulted.
any brand new player is HARD time gated to be able to get that stuff, and in some cases unless they get carried wont ever get it.

No one seems to care about that side of the problem.  People want it now so they dont have to hope to trade for it later. Why should that be acceptable?

Once something is vaulted it becomes pretty much a cash shop item.  Everything in trading is valued at Plat.

 

 

Edited May 22, 2016 by Rueian

[Gulftown]

16 minutes ago, Rueian said:

Alot of people complain about the cost to craft, but think about the time cost to acquire any given item.
if you complain about crafting that means you already dealt with the only uncertain part of obtaining the frame.  Grinding for the blueprints.

not every player will be able to get the primes as there is always a finite number of blueprints on the market once it is vaulted.
any brand new player is HARD time gated to be able to get that stuff, and in some cases unless they get carried wont ever get it.

 

There's no chance they'll be vaulting stuff that hasn't been around for years. Also bear in mind there's a good chance of stuff returning from the vault when the prices go too high. That's what they do with primed mods as well. And hopefully arcane helmets.

Vaulting stuff is only a sales strategy from DE, forcing people the need for platinum to purchase them off each other. There's a good possibility of buying platinum straight from DE instead of farming the sorties and void for stuff to sell on the market. You can always farm rare stuff in the void and buy the missing pieces with the obtained platinum. 

I get your point but don't see the issue. If I start an online game three years after its release, I don't expect to be able to catch up with veteran players. It's DE's way of honoring those that supported them in the early days. 

Edited May 22, 2016 by Siideriu

[Rueian]

15 minutes ago, Siideriu said:

There's no chance they'll be vaulting stuff that hasn't been around for years. Also bear in mind there's a good chance of stuff returning from the vault when the prices go too high. That's what they do with primed mods as well. And hopefully arcane helmets.

Vaulting stuff is only a sales strategy from DE, forcing people the need for platinum to purchase them off each other. There's a good possibility of buying platinum straight from DE instead of farming the sorties and void for stuff to sell on the market. You can always farm rare stuff in the void and buy the missing pieces with the obtained platinum. 

I get your point but don't see the issue. If I start an online game three years after its release, I don't expect to be able to catch up with veteran players. It's DE's way of honoring those that supported them in the early days. 

You dont make things purposefully out of reach, you are getting really close to P2W status with a response of "didn't play for atleast a year, well sucks to be you"

In most MMOs it takes maybe a month or two to catch up.  In this game because of crafting times, and limited inventory space and a slew of other things... catching up takes a long time

 

Edited May 22, 2016 by Rueian

[tripletriple]

1 hour ago, Siideriu said:

Vauban was released in May, 2013. Back then, the required resources to craft it, even the required credits to craft it, were at the level of this (should we scale how they've increased the resource and credit gains). And now we´re talking of its Primed version.

It´s new content. Get over it. You aren't supposed to be able to craft new content easily the moment it comes. Warframe simply fell from its original standards during the recent years. I´ll make a blatant statement and assume you've never played any game beyond full casual. Seven minutes a day is absolutely no hard work. 

 

Vauban was no where near what this is. His resources were easy to farm then and now. Resources are more scare than before, when you could run many exploitable nodes in the past.

Telling someone to get over it is not an argument. That is a fallacy in which you ignore critical thought and obvious resource creep effectively ruling any alternatives out of question. You are better than that. 

Considering Steve had lowering grind on his list, this is a problem even DE acknowledges but they seem to be making it worse. You are blatantly ignoring the issue and sweeping it under the rug, even when it's you who is being affected and that is ridiculous.    

Edited May 22, 2016 by tripletriple

[Necrius]

On 22.05.2016 at 3:27 AM, Siideriu said:

It´s new content. Get over it. You aren't supposed to be able to craft new content easily the moment it comes. Warframe simply fell from its original standards during the recent years. I´ll make a blatant statement and assume you've never played any game beyond full casual. Seven minutes a day is absolutely no hard work. 

 

It's new content only for us. For someone who will come to the game after Prime access is off it'll be an inadequately priced frame locked behind high tier endless missions. His "newness" is a really crappy excuse for this blatant and cynical "go buy it" tactic.

[Gulftown]

On 22.5.2016 at 4:33 AM, Rueian said:

You dont make things purposefully out of reach, you are getting really close to P2W status with a response of "didn't play for atleast a year, well sucks to be you"

In most MMOs it takes maybe a month or two to catch up.  In this game because of crafting times, and limited inventory space and a slew of other things... catching up takes a long time

 

And we reach the heart of the debate; this is not an MMO. Warframe is a COOP RPG. There's a huge difference. And btw, comparing this to WoW (which is by far the most popular MMO yet) two months couldn't get you anywhere, not even to the half of the recent expansions' legendary quest lines if you started a few patches in.

On 22.5.2016 at 4:44 AM, tripletriple said:

Vauban was no where near what this is. His resources were easy to farm then and now. Resources are more scare than before, when you could run many exploitable nodes in the past.

Telling someone to get over it is not an argument. That is a fallacy in which you ignore critical thought and obvious resource creep effectively ruling any alternatives out of question. You are better than that. 

Considering Steve had lowering grind on his list, this is a problem even DE acknowledges but they seem to be making it worse. You are blatantly ignoring the issue and sweeping it under the rug, even when it's you who is being affected and that is ridiculous.    

I'm not ignoring anything. Haven't seen any good arguments from your side either. Do not say "I am being affected" when I am clearly not being affected. I don't find it an issue what they're doing now. Full slacker casuals are being affected and it's a good thing, as I've clearly stated. Vauban was an alert frame, Vauban Prime is also an alert frame. Catching 5% of the Nitain alerts since the last major update shouldn't be an issue.

Sibear takes 30,000 Cryotic. Yesterday's sorties gave you 3% of that. Had you done only the sorties last season you would be half-way-through. Had you done alerts, you would be there. Had you also played some excavations out of pure interest towards the game, or out of interest of getting void keys for example, you wouldn't be posting here. Cryotic is completely useless other than Sibear and Fomorian events that become useless the moment you receive the receiver.

 

[DatDarkOne]

I had needed 9k Cryotic for Trinity Prime.  Pretty much a single 20-30 minute Excavation mission got me that.  Nitain is about the only thing that can't be farmed quickly.  I don't really see a problem with that one unless you're an impatient person. 

[Valar.Morghulis]

On 5/22/2016 at 6:44 PM, tripletriple said:

Vauban was no where near what this is. His resources were easy to farm then and now. Resources are more scare than before, when you could run many exploitable nodes in the past.

Telling someone to get over it is not an argument. That is a fallacy in which you ignore critical thought and obvious resource creep effectively ruling any alternatives out of question. You are better than that. 

Considering Steve had lowering grind on his list, this is a problem even DE acknowledges but they seem to be making it worse. You are blatantly ignoring the issue and sweeping it under the rug, even when it's you who is being affected and that is ridiculous.    

Ultimately the point i have had for years is that there is to much stuff that is locked away behind arbitrary time walls. There a lot of event exclusive weapons that still have not returned they are locking Prime's away so they can re-sell them again at a premium. Each frame is progressively taking longer and longer and harder and harder to obtain, there is a point that simply being available in game isn't enough to ward of the "Pay-2-Win". If it has been made difficult or the grind is to long for the soul reason to sell premium access packages then that to is a definition of "pay-2-win"

 

1 hour ago, Siideriu said:

And we reach the heart of the debate; this is not an MMO. Warframe is a COOP RPG. There's a huge difference. And btw, comparing this to WoW (which is by far the most popular MMO yet) two months couldn't get you anywhere, not even to the half of the recent expansions' legendary quest lines if you started a few patches in.

I'm not ignoring anything. Haven't seen any good arguments from your side either. Do not say "I am being affected" when I am clearly not being affected. I don't find it an issue what they're doing now. Full slacker casuals are being affected and it's a good thing, as I've clearly stated. Vauban was an alert frame, Vauban Prime is also an alert frame. Catching 5% of the Nitain alerts since the last major update shouldn't be an issue.

Sibear takes 30,000 Cryotic. Yesterday's sorties gave you 3% of that. Had you done only the sorties last season you would be half-way-through. Had you done alerts, you would be there. Had you also played some excavations out of pure interest towards the game, or out of interest of getting void keys for example, you wouldn't be posting here. Cryotic is completely useless other than Sibear and Fomorian events that become useless the moment you receive the receiver.

 

This isn't a RPG of any kind this is a clearly Co-Op Action Game, I have been playing for 2+ years and not seen any RPG element at all in this game. You can Role-Play in the game however you can also Role-play in Battlefield or Call of Duty yet is still doesn't make them RPG's. I recently picked up WoW in 6 weeks I leveled a brand new charter, clear most of the zones, got in to Raiding/LFR and started making good progress on many other aspects of the game. SO Yes you can catch up in 2 months in WoW, had you named some of the "Korean MMO's" you would have had a point there but "Western MMO's" are a joke to level up in. 

[Gulftown]

On 23.5.2016 at 9:00 PM, Valar.Morghulis said:

I recently picked up WoW in 6 weeks I leveled a brand new charter, clear most of the zones, got in to Raiding/LFR and started making good progress on many other aspects of the game. SO Yes you can catch up in 2 months in WoW, had you named some of the "Korean MMO's" you would have had a point there but "Western MMO's" are a joke to level up in. 

WoW leveling != mastery, there is no equal leveling system in this game. The work only begins when you reach the maximum level because all the content is designed for the maximum level. Mastery is a feat of strength and nothing more. You could compare leveling 1-100 in WoW to getting MR1 in Warframe, it's all just the intro for the game.

And now that you took the bait, you didn't anyway accomplish anything. You couldn't get to even halfway of the legendary quest line, you couldn't experience a single arena season, you couldn't experience and progress a single raiding tier at the standard competitive level. You did not "clear most the zones", all you did was clear the zones of the previous expansions that have absolutely no meaning in the current version. You got into an LFR? Wow, you got into an automated pug system, just like the casual one for Warframe. You would be laughed out of the game's forums did you write that there.

You're exactly the definition of a casual player causing drama over the game regaining its original standards. 

[(XBOX)Grizzy Mode]

I'll add my 2 cents... prime access packs do seem underwhelming, ALTHOUGH: prime accessory packs are VERY close to on par for what I would pay. 90 days affinity and credit booster, plat that meets the price you pay alone, and a couple cool vanity items to show off. Do the math if you want... I'd say it's more than enough.

[Kevyne_Kicklighter]

On 5/23/2016 at 2:00 PM, Valar.Morghulis said:

This isn't a RPG of any kind this is a clearly Co-Op Action Game, I have been playing for 2+ years and not seen any RPG element at all in this game. You can Role-Play in the game however you can also Role-play in Battlefield or Call of Duty yet is still doesn't make them RPG's. I recently picked up WoW in 6 weeks I leveled a brand new charter, clear most of the zones, got in to Raiding/LFR and started making good progress on many other aspects of the game. SO Yes you can catch up in 2 months in WoW, had you named some of the "Korean MMO's" you would have had a point there but "Western MMO's" are a joke to level up in. 

It's VERY theme is RPG (the quests show it in spades, especially the Second Dream one). It's a hybrid game like Deus Ex that meets EvE, that mixes shooter+RPG into a game (crafting, for example, isn't a part of shooters).

If it was nothing but Planetside2 (a sci-fi shooter but offers nothing else but shooting and some skins), this game would be dead in 1/2 years. The lot of shooters.

6 weeks you wouldn't know WoW even if you spent 6 weeks eye-ball-to-eyeball with Wowhead soaking up the lore and all. Too much to explain, every patch release is a media frenzy as it is (and you got to know all the dramas, too).

Warframe serves it's purpose and striking it's own ground. Similar to other games but keeping the elements that appeal to the gamers who play different genres. As easy as WoW is to play and level hides the very grind that's in Warframe, just WoW has more content to keep people busy (and they severely gate content to make it last and not burn out players, as that was the problem when it began ... lives literally destroyed by that grind).

[Rueian]

1 hour ago, Siideriu said:

WoW leveling != mastery, there is no equal leveling system in this game. The work only begins when you reach the maximum level because all the content is designed for the maximum level. Mastery is a feat of strength and nothing more. You could compare leveling 1-100 in WoW to getting MR1 in Warframe, it's all just the intro for the game.

And now that you took the bait, you didn't anyway accomplish anything. You couldn't get to even halfway of the legendary quest line, you couldn't experience a single arena season, you couldn't experience and progress a single raiding tier at the standard competitive level. You did not "clear most the zones", all you did was clear the zones of the previous expansions that have absolutely no meaning in the current version. You got into an LFR? Wow, you got into an automated pug system, just like the casual one for Warframe. You would be laughed out of the game's forums did you write that there.

You're exactly the definition of a casual player causing drama over the game regaining its original standards. 

Actually, skipping all of the filler content to get to end game is what any hardcore player would do.  Casuals are the ones who wouldn't make it to max level in a couple days and start joining raids either pugs or find a static.  You can easily get yourself just barely below the progression race in most Massively Multiplayer Online Games.  Note how i said MMO, not RPG, though if you want to nitpick then this is an Instance/Lobby Multiplayer Online Game. I spoke nothing on the core genre and only on the fact that this is a Multiplayer Online game.

[Rueian]

On 5/23/2016 at 0:09 AM, Necrius said:

It's new content only for us. For someone who will come to the game after Prime access is off it'll be an inadequately priced frame locked behind high tier endless missions. His "newness" is a really crappy excuse for this blatant and cynical "go buy it" tactic.

Also when it is vaulted it is simply missed content once the market has been exhausted.

[Horonelius]

Ideally you would just want to piss a player off to the point where they break down and just buy Prime Access.

[DeadlyPeanutt]

On 5/20/2016 at 10:03 PM, Nordenfelt_ said:

Grind is evil, but is lifeblood of WF. Seems like what DEvs doesn't see any other ways to keep players in game, and it's just sad.
Instead making gaming experience more enjoyable, concentrate on tweaking old things, they just putting new stuff and letting people a little choice: Farm or just leave it. And we still have childhood diseases of this game, like stupid enemy bullet sponges, obnoxious randomness and no real endgame. 
I love this game, I really do. But some points have to be named again and again, until something will change.

this ^ is the contradiction of many gaming companies: instead of improving the core game play, they focus on creating the newest shiny toy for people to buy for real money.

one wonders if massive players migration away from such games is due to this tendency 

[DeadlyPeanutt]

3 hours ago, Horonelius said:

Ideally you would just want to piss a player off to the point where they break down and just buy Prime Access.

but not piss the player off enough to say 'screw this, there are a thousand other games to play'

[Sh0ck-Wave]

On 5/20/2016 at 9:11 PM, DrBorris said:

Don't you all get it? Vauban is the alert frame, thus DE made the major crafting component Alertium. He is still probably easier to craft than his vanilla counterpart because at least we are guaranteed a few Nitain alerts every day. It was intentional that you would need to do a fudge ton of alerts.

Either way, the grind for construction Booben's parts is not that bad when compared to how much rotation C stuff we have to farm for this Prime Access. This is the issue IMO, too much rotation C is what will lead to burn out because there is no sense of progress. When you are grinding that 7k Oxium you see that you are progressing, but when you are farming the parts you see no progress until you have succeeded. This is why people just quit farming, it feels futile because you are no closer to getting a part on your hundredth try as you were on your first.

+1 to both points

Vauban is the alert frame, so Nitain (Alertium) and lots of it is the perfect match for his components.

I do agree that there's too much in Rotation C, but that said I've blown 50 T1E keys (and counting) and still haven't even sniffed a Fraggor BP. Just because something is on an easy key doesn't mean it's any easier to get.