Where DE went wrong. Increasing grind /= more money!

[tripletriple]

Recently an issue has seemingly divided the community. With the release of Vauban prime and his outrageous crafting and farming investment, many believe that DE has over stepped thier boundaries on what is considered consumer friendly. Some say the costs are fine and that it should be hard to obtain him. DE needs to sell their prime access, so they make it extremely difficult for us to simply get it easily for free.  I believe the grind has gotten out of control with many of my friends quitting because of it. 

[DE]Drew released a very well written statement about DE's side of things and while it is interesting to see their side of things I am not convinced that burning out your players is the only solution they have. Granted they are a company and need to make money, the most successful F2P games have always remained fair.  

Argon is a great concept. Making the resource disappear allows it always to be needed. Instead of a pay wall, like nitain, another argon like resource should have been released and been a guaranteed drop at rotation C. Making it less about rng, but still requiring you to make an investment with your time. Then simply make it so that the blueprint doesn't require an overwhelming amount of them. 

DE, please don't shaft us to sell your products. Your biggest problem lies with your prime access bundle. It is simply underwhelming. You need to introduce some exclusive skins and items that are included in the package. Make them shiny, give them elements that are not in the game yet. Maybe, small boosts in stats like + 0.2 movement speed, or 50 base energy is not pay2win. Make a syandana as bright as the sun, and make unicorns come out of it. While I am exaggerating, the point is that you need to make your packages more enticing for people to buy, instead of simply getting the individual pieces. 

DE we love you, and we know you need to make money, just please find different alternatives over making us deal with months of failed rng and grind. 

 

 

[Giantconch]

Well said, good sir.

 

Drew also said something about resource supplies of some users being astronomical and that being part of the justification for the resouce costs I believe? TL:WGBaR

 

What irks me about that statement is their "solution" for people who have farmed the last 3 years is that they believe skyrocketed resource costs of new things is a better solution than something like new consumables like the health restores, energy restores etc.

[Gulftown]

1 hour ago, tripletriple said:

You need to introduce some exclusive skins and items that are included in the package. Make them shiny, give them elements that are not in the game yet. Maybe, small boosts in stats like + 0.2 movement speed, or 50 base energy is not pay2win.

 

Yes it would be, you just defined P2W. 

• The crafting requirements for Vauban and Sibear are not overwhelming. 
• If you have actively played since February, you can't be far from the requirements.
• It's new content.
• Why should new players have instant access to the new content?
• No frame or weapon is crucial, they're just mastery. Mastery beyond 12 = +daily trades only. 

[tripletriple]

12 minutes ago, Siideriu said:

Yes it would be, you just defined P2W. 

• The crafting requirements for Vauban and Sibear are not overwhelming. 
• If you have actively played since February, you can't be far from the requirements.
• It's new content.
• Why should new players have instant access to the new content?
• No frame or weapon is crucial, they're just mastery. Mastery beyond 12 = +daily trades only. 

50 extra energy is P2W? What??

[Gulftown]

1 minute ago, tripletriple said:

50 extra energy is P2W? What??

Any purchased advantage is P2W. 

http://bfy.tw/5rDP

[Eric1738]

hmm……I think only DE knows how much grind is most profitable for them.

Edited May 20, 2016 by Eric1738

[Nordenfelt_]

Grind is evil, but is lifeblood of WF. Seems like what DEvs doesn't see any other ways to keep players in game, and it's just sad.
Instead making gaming experience more enjoyable, concentrate on tweaking old things, they just putting new stuff and letting people a little choice: Farm or just leave it. And we still have childhood diseases of this game, like stupid enemy bullet sponges, obnoxious randomness and no real endgame. 
I love this game, I really do. But some points have to be named again and again, until something will change.

[Kevyne_Kicklighter]

2 hours ago, Siideriu said:

Any purchased advantage is P2W. 

http://bfy.tw/5rDP

Bernie Brigade at work!

[tennorod]

2 hours ago, Nordenfelt_ said:

Grind is evil, but is lifeblood of WF. Seems like what DEvs doesn't see any other ways to keep players in game, and it's just sad.
Instead making gaming experience more enjoyable, concentrate on tweaking old things, they just putting new stuff and letting people a little choice: Farm or just leave it. And we still have childhood diseases of this game, like stupid enemy bullet sponges, obnoxious randomness and no real endgame. 
I love this game, I really do. But some points have to be named again and again, until something will change.

I agree you maybe around u19.5 or 20 they might do that let's cross our fingers 

[DatDarkOne]

2 hours ago, Siideriu said:

Yes it would be, you just defined P2W. 

• The crafting requirements for Vauban and Sibear are not overwhelming. 
• If you have actively played since February, you can't be far from the requirements.
• It's new content.
• Why should new players have instant access to the new content?
• No frame or weapon is crucial, they're just mastery. Mastery beyond 12 = +daily trades only. 

Thank you Siideriu for posting that.  

If I had paid to get Vauban P, I would be pissed if someone was able to get him for free in 2 days (as of this post) easily.  For everyone that is complaining about the crafting costs, just remember that he hasn't even been out that long.  It is completely unrealistic to think that you should easily craft him in 2-4 days.  

Edited May 20, 2016 by DatDarkOne
thanks

[Kaiser_Suoh]

7000 oxium??

Come on!!

[OneMember]

Vauban's crafting price is just fine. Why should Prime be easier to get than vanilla version???

Edited May 20, 2016 by OneMember

[texrei]

Prime Access is way too expensive. Make it cheaper, small losses may bring even more profit.

[Rueian]

3 hours ago, OneMember said:

Vauban's crafting price is just fine. Why should Prime be easier to get than vanilla version???

Do all primes have the costs that he does?

From what i can see the answer is no.  This is just typical grind and power creep.

Edited May 20, 2016 by Rueian

[DatDarkOne]

45 minutes ago, Rueian said:

Do all primes have the costs that he does?

From what i can see the answer is no.  This is just typical grind and power creep.

Did you forget that he's only been out for 3 days?  Come people, this is starting to sound more and more like spoiled children upset because they can't have their milk right now.

[Rueian]

3 minutes ago, DatDarkOne said:

Did you forget that he's only been out for 3 days?  Come people, this is starting to sound more and more like spoiled children upset because they can't have their milk right now.

I'm not asking to have him.  I am simply stating that the primes should have equal grinding requirements, and relatively similar power levels (though being as new as I am, I cant really talk about power levels or balance)

Base frames should be relatively the same, and Prime frames should be relatively the same.  It only makes sense.

Edited May 20, 2016 by Rueian

[DatDarkOne]

5 minutes ago, Rueian said:

I'm not asking to have him now.  I am simply stating that the primes should have equal grinding requirements, and relatively similar power levels (though being as new as i am, i cant really talk about power levels or balance)

Base frames should be relatively the same, and Prime frames should be relatively the same.  It only makes sense.

Ok, I see what you meant now.  I can't say that I agree or disagree.  In a way if all primes were the same to get, then it would be possible for Vauban Prime to be easier to get than regular Vauban.  That wouldn't be right either.  Then you have Quest frames and non-quest frames that can be a hell grind or easy depending on the person and RNG.  I've seen posts of players catching hell trying to get Ivara and others who got her fairly easy.  

Edited May 20, 2016 by DatDarkOne
adds

[Rueian]

1 hour ago, DatDarkOne said:

Ok, I see what you meant now.  I can't say that I agree or disagree.  In a way if all primes were the same to get, then it would be possible for Vauban Prime to be easier to get than regular Vauban.  That wouldn't be right either.  Then you have Quest frames and non-quest frames that can be a hell grind or easy depending on the person and RNG.  I've seen posts of players catching hell trying to get Ivara and others who got her fairly easy.  

I mean relatively the same, the scale of resources is a byproduct of the grind of the game, if they wanted to control your grind time they would add new resources exclusive to the construction of the frame.  I also don't feel super bad about primes being easy to get since they are timed exclusives.

ultimately I think they kinda wanted to make it seem unreasonable to sway the hands of a few people on the fence about buying prime access.

[Necrius]

I just wonder WHY DE's advocates say Vauban should cost more? Whole Vauban's "pain to get" is poor design, not a good thing. Now we get a prime that not only a rare drop from T4 missions, but also costs a ton to produce. Why it's justified at all? He's just another prime warframe, another "class" in this game, why the hek he's treated as if he's endgame content? Only because he's new?

[DoomFruit]

9 hours ago, Siideriu said:

• The crafting requirements for Vauban and Sibear are not overwhelming. 

Yes, they are. Sure, if you spend your entire day slaving away on Triton or wherever the current boring core farm is, you might have a surplus of cryotic... but what about the players (example: my entire 50-member clan) who don't give a flying crap about cores and don't spend every waking minute farming those worthless bloody things which have already caused a serious infection in the void drop tables. Exactly the same as with the knux - which my clan still doesn't have also because of the enormously expensive cryotic requirements.

[DrBorris]

Don't you all get it? Vauban is the alert frame, thus DE made the major crafting component Alertium. He is still probably easier to craft than his vanilla counterpart because at least we are guaranteed a few Nitain alerts every day. It was intentional that you would need to do a fudge ton of alerts.

 

Either way, the grind for construction Booben's parts is not that bad when compared to how much rotation C stuff we have to farm for this Prime Access. This is the issue IMO, too much rotation C is what will lead to burn out because there is no sense of progress. When you are grinding that 7k Oxium you see that you are progressing, but when you are farming the parts you see no progress until you have succeeded. This is why people just quit farming, it feels futile because you are no closer to getting a part on your hundredth try as you were on your first.

[(PSN)AltimaotGates]

9 hours ago, Nordenfelt_ said:

Grind is evil, but is lifeblood of WF. Seems like what DEvs doesn't see any other ways to keep players in game, and it's just sad.
Instead making gaming experience more enjoyable, concentrate on tweaking old things, they just putting new stuff and letting people a little choice: Farm or just leave it. And we still have childhood diseases of this game, like stupid enemy bullet sponges, obnoxious randomness and no real endgame. 
I love this game, I really do. But some points have to be named again and again, until something will change.

The problem is that over time, no matter how intricate the system you make, players who have an involved community will always, always be a step ahead of you as developers, and trying to keep to a strict free to play model. It all depends on what the player wants to get out of it, and the majority is getting that one build they want and then they are done, but want more content. It ends up being a race that no one wins. On the developer side, it's making more content while producing systems that will challenge and intice the player while they go to the next step. While the player side has always been divided among the hardcore who favor the grind and players who just log in to get that one thing they hear is awesome, get it, play with it a bit and stop playing again. Of course there is more diversity than just that, but it proves the point that managing the vast community versus the intended track of the developer, their game plan for the game.

 

I am a new player, and just started in March. I haven't run into many things that I screamed as "unfair", even viewing the newer stuff for planning on what to get and what to pass on. Besides the focus system, which is just not economical for what you pay for it versus what you get, as well as sortie rewards. Everything else I see as things to plan for while I do my daily stuff.

[Hypernaut1]

People telling DE what they need to do to improve sales/ success of WF is like me telling Steph Curry how he can get better at shooting 3s.

DE knows what theyre doing overall. And WF success is proof of that. They're really good at their job of designing shooter MMOs.

They also know that a few weeks from now anyone that really truly cared about getting VP will be well on their way to crafting him or enjoying their time grinding. 

Edited May 20, 2016 by Hypernaut1

[Gulftown]

2 hours ago, DoomFruit said:

Yes, they are. Sure, if you spend your entire day slaving away on Triton or wherever the current boring core farm is, you might have a surplus of cryotic... but what about the players (example: my entire 50-member clan) who don't give a flying crap about cores and don't spend every waking minute farming those worthless bloody things which have already caused a serious infection in the void drop tables. Exactly the same as with the knux - which my clan still doesn't have also because of the enormously expensive cryotic requirements.

As I have said before in countless topics, Cryotic is by far one of the easiest resources to obtain. It's guaranteed. Had you prepared well for the update, you probably had farmed for T3/T4 keys in Hieracon. Let's be pessimistic and say the up time is 80% towards the end of a fast and easy 2000-run (whereas in reality it's closer to 130% due to stacking drills), you would have got the required 30.000 Cryotic in roughly 10 hours. The last major update (Saryn) was 91 days ago.

That's only seven minutes of drilling daily. I find it perfectly acceptable seeing that also Sorties have occasionally excavation missions, alerts host them etc. etc. 

Edited May 20, 2016 by Siideriu

[bubbabenali]

12 hours ago, tripletriple said:

50 extra energy is P2W? What??

50 more energy is 2x Bladestorm or 1 minute Hysteria/ WoF.

A difference of 0.2 in sprintspeed is in Warframe terms the diference between snail (Saryn) and near Loki speed madnes (Nyx Prime)

This is the epitome of p2w.