Adressing Void burnout and Sortie reward randomness

[JohnKable]

**Please mind that English aint my native language and the following post may contain typos or grammatical errors, I just hope what i'm writing will be clear and not insulting to your language.

Hi there, im a warframe player with since 3 years, and more than 1 month actual game-time.

We all are aware that the most recent additions to the game are cool, but also messed things quite a bit for those who cant spend half day playing. And im talking about Ducats, Sorties, Argon and Nitain.
Its a fact, we are having too much stuff we need to keep an eye open on and thats a problem.
Because in an average day a player is supposed to run a couple alerts, complete all 3 Sorties stages and some mission in the void for gathering ducats and the missing prime parts. And this does take time: Sorties take from 30 to 45 mins average, and void runs for the rare parts require at least 25 mins each. Also alerts take away 5 mins each at very best.
Its very likely that a player spending two hours per day on this game will keep up with most of the content but will still run out of ducats, credits, cores or some resource quite often. And will definitely have an hard time grabbing the rarest primes , Arcanes and Baro items, and this sound kinda unfair because 2h per day sould definitely be enough.

Its a known issue, and ive read many complaining and proposing solutions here on the forums.
I have some game-design and game economics knowledge (not that this means much), and i like tweaking with numbers and ideas. Well here's the solution i came to, a possible solution to "Void Burnout" and to Sorties often unfair prize structure.
I cant tell its perfect, but it looks kinda solid to me. And has little to none drawbacks compared to the current system, and of course aims to be fair to  both players that can spend little time on the game and the ones that can spend much more.

Ill explain it better, my idea is to introduce the proposed "token system" for Sorties but doing it in a better performing way: with Ducats prizes.
Why ducats? because we dont need another resource/ currency and because it will greatly improve the usefulness of both any Sorties and Void reward.
The following are examples, numbers can still be tweaked a bit. I made this with the idea of being generous but not too much, and without the will to completely warp Sorties we knew so far.

Sorties New Prize structure:

Sortie1 - 20 ducats, credits
Sortie2 - 40 ducats, credits, 5 rare cores
Sortie3 - 60 ducats, credits, 10 rare cores. Very low chance of getting Legendary core instead of cores pack.

This way you have a guaranteed 120 ducats every day in less than 1 hour of gameplay, plus 15 rare cores for a grand total of 840 ducats per week guaranteed by only playing sorties.
And the best thing is that if you (for any reason) will have to leave sorties half-way at round 2, you will still get a fair 60 ducats and 5 cores.

And now lets talk about Baro's item shop.

Of course it has to be permanent, and of course it has to have always available the current sortie season rewards for sale. 
Lets make an example of his market for the current season:

Dera vandal BP - 225 ducats
Dera vandal receiver - 125 ducats
Dera vandal barrel - 125 ducats
Dera vandal stock - 125 ducats
Nehza Parts - 225  ducats each - 
Focus Lenses - 150 ducats - you cant get one with a full sortie reward. but you will be able to choose the one you want.
5 Rare cores Pack - 60 ducats - For those who liked the 25 cores pack it will stay the same: 15 guaranteed cores per day and 120 ducats that can buy another 10 cores

And now lets tweak with numbers. In a sortie season of two weeks, you will be able to gather 1680 ducats.
Lets suppose 600 will go for the current weapon leaving you with 1080
Now you will be able to purchase
-7x of any Focus lens you want leaving you some spare ducats
-Another full set of the weapon for resale and having 480 spare ducats
-90 Rare cores, keep in mind that 210 will be guaranteed completing Sories every day. for a grand total of 300
-Full Nehza set and having some spare ducats

And now lets suppose you dont want the weapon nor Nehza parts
- 140 golden cores, for a grand total of 350
- 11 Focus Lenses of your choice and some spare ducats
- 1680 Ducats that will be enugh to buy almost every time-limited item Baro will bring.

Last sentence implies that baro will keep bringing time-limited unique items every two weeks. Eventually this may collide with Sortie Season ending (yes i'm aware that only the very first sortie season actually had a duration of 2 weeks)

And as you may notice the system is generous by any point of view, it allows players to get the season's weapon playing a full sortie only every two days, and Lenses without randomness and having to trade the one you got for the ones you need every time.

Hope you will like this, and to get some feedback. Maybe if enough people agree that could be cool this way, and DEs see some potential in it maybe we can get something close.

Thanks for reading!

Edited May 23, 2016 by JohnKable

[(PSN)A_SimpleName]

I like the idea but will raise one question. If the currency is ducats, then I won't even need to do Sortie at all to purchase the "Sortie" items. Although it provide variety to farming, but this will detract players from playing Sortie.

[PoisonHD]

4 minutes ago, (PS4)A_SimpleName said:

I like the idea but will raise one question. If the currency is ducats, then I won't even need to do Sortie at all to purchase the "Sortie" items. Although it provide variety to farming, but this will detract players from playing Sortie.

^^ This.

It would need to be a different currency sadly, but I really like the idea.

[Magnulast]

 

21 minutes ago, JohnKable said:

Sorties New Prize structure:

Sortie1 - 20 ducats, credits
Sortie2 - 40 ducats, credits, 5 rare cores
Sortie3 - 60 ducats, credits, 10 rare cores. Very low chance of getting Legendary core instead of cores pack.

This way you have a guaranteed 120 ducats every day in less than 1 hour of gameplay, plus 15 rare cores for a grand total of 840 ducats per week guaranteed by only playing sorties.
And the best thing is that if you (for any reason) will have to leave sorties half-way at round 2, you will still get a fair 60 ducats and 5 cores.

And now lets talk about Baro's item shop.

Of course it has to be permanent, and of course it has to have always available the current sortie season rewards for sale. 
Lets make an example of his market for the current season:

Dera vandal BP - 225 ducats
Dera vandal receiver - 125 ducats
Dera vandal barrel - 125 ducats
Dera vandal stock - 125 ducats
Nehza Parts - 225  ducats each - 
Focus Lenses - 150 ducats - you cant get one with a full sortie reward. but you will be able to choose the one you want.
5 Rare cores Pack - 60 ducats - For those who liked the 25 cores pack it will stay the same: 15 guaranteed cores per day and 120 ducats that can buy another 10 cores

No, just no.

I understand you might want to make it abundant, and easy to get.

But there has to be a limit to this, Sorties are for players who want to do them, not for players that "need" to do them.

You aren't forced to do it, you are forcing yourself.

Are you secretly planning to kill the trade chat channel of anything sortie based?.

--------------------------------------------------

Honestly OP, you aren't supposed to give hundreds of ducats a day, nor should this be in the sortie reward system.

Next, you shouldn't address burnout by making a bloatware system of rewards.-840 ducats per week? 

First of all, I want to earn a reward, not get a gift out of nowhere.-Lotus hands me 5k plat for no reason.

Second of all, this system gives too much, it pretty much removes the point of grinding.-What's the point of doing anything in the void, or anything in the sortie, when they are pretty much the same thing now?

Third of all, even though this system could be balanced, it's still not good, the Void's market exists because of RNG, the Sortie's market exists because of RNG. And removing that gets what?

-----------------------------------------------

Despite the system having a good structure and fixes a few problems but, the idea of this causes problems, problems that shouldn't be ignored.

It makes the void, the only place that rare items could be acquired and sold.(Syndicate, Arcanes are minimal.)

Edited May 23, 2016 by Magnulast
Messed up a few spots, and fixed it upon release.(x2)

[JohnKable]

1 minute ago, (PS4)A_SimpleName said:

I like the idea but will raise one question. If the currency is ducats, then I won't even need to do Sortie at all to purchase the "Sortie" items. Although it provide variety to farming, but this will detract players from playing Sortie.

Yes this came to my mind. But i thought that the pack of 15 cores, plus credits plus a very fair amount of ducats would do the trick.

Maybe the ducats prizes can be improved a bit to make it more worthwile, but this will bring an increase to costs in ducats for sure.
I tried to stick to Ducats amounts we are already accustomed.

I also i hade in mind the fact that many would skip sorties anyways while farming for the latest prime parts, and i worried about them not having a such hard time getting the seasonal sortie rewards.

Eventually some sortie rewards will be unlocked and be buyable with ducats only after completing a set amount of Sorties during the season,

[JohnKable]

8 minutes ago, Magnulast said:

 

No, just no.

I understand you might want to make it abundant, and easy to get.

But there has to be a limit to this, Sorties are for players who want to do them, not for players that "need" to do them.

You aren't forced to do it, you are forcing yourself.

Are you secretly planning to kill the trade chat channel of anything sortie based?.

--------------------------------------------------

Honestly OP, you aren't supposed to give hundreds of ducats a day, nor should this be in the sortie reward system.

Next, you shouldn't address burnout by making a bloatware system of rewards.-840 ducats per week? 

First of all, I want to earn a reward, not get a gift out of nowhere.-Lotus hands me 5k plat for no reason.

Second of all, this system gives too much, it pretty much removes the point of grinding.-What's the point of doing anything in the void, or anything in the sortie, when they are pretty much the same thing now?

Third of all, even though this system could be balanced, it's still not good, the Void's market exists because of RNG, the Sortie's market exists because of RNG. And removing that gets what?

-----------------------------------------------

Despite the system having a good structure and fixes a few problems but, the idea of this causes problems, problems that shouldn't be ignored.

It makes the void, the only place that rare items could be acquired and sold.(Syndicate, Arcanes are minimal.)

 

I get what you mean, perfectly. 840 ducats for an average 5 hours of gameplay didnt sound so much to me. 
But i think the system can work if tweaking correctly the numbers

I didnt want to give too many ducats neither too little. It needs to be a good extra to void grinding, but sure, not just strictly better. 

I put down the 120 per day number with in mind players with only a couple of hours per day, probably slightly better than what you can get in the same amount of time in the void BUT without any chance of getting some rare part.
And at least if you instead prefer grinding the void hunting for rare parts youll still be able to get something from the Sorties system (eventually, as wrote just up here with certain items requiring a set amount of sorties completion)

Edited May 23, 2016 by JohnKable

[Magnulast]

1 hour ago, JohnKable said:

 

I get what you mean, perfectly. 840 ducats for an average 5 hours of gameplay didnt sound so much to me. 
But i think the system can work if tweaking correctly the numbers

I didnt want to give too many ducats neither too little. It needs to be a good extra to void grinding, but sure, not just strictly better. 

I put down the 120 per day number with in mind players with only a couple of hours per day, probably slightly better than what you can get in the same amount of time in the void BUT without any chance of getting some rare part.
And at least if you instead prefer grinding the void hunting for rare parts youll still be able to get something from the Sorties system (eventually, as wrote just up here with certain items requiring a set amount of sorties completion)

Even though it creates diversity, it makes it more of a choice instead.

Either do a sorite to get what you need, and never visit the ducat kiosk.

or do the void, and grind for parts/ducats.

In general, what I'm trying to say is that it's been made way to easy to obtain ducats, weather that's a good thing, or a bad thing is up to you.

I know it's a sorite, and you won't be able to get a rare part, but that's what makes it bad.

The next Issue I run into is the market, you pretty much killed it, RNG is what makes a market, a market, just because a greater lens costs 40 plat in the market, does not mean that the regular lens will stay at 10 plat. Even though the token system is supposed to fix this issue, it changes this thing from a RNG thing, to a Grindfest instead.

The last and final issue as said, is that what I'm trying to say, is that the Ducat system, should not interfere with another system.

I prefer seeing everything checked out on my sortie reward list, rather than seeing that I have meet up with baro and buy it from him.

Even though the system could be balanced, I would not prefer for it to be grind-fested instead of RNG.

I just think the system is fine as is, and the sorite system should not interfere with baro, it does not make sense lorewise at the moment, and it pretty much lessens the exclusivity of Baro K' Tears.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

In other words, it lessens the grind for baro in general, and pretty much kills the market for both sortie, and baro items.

I know this is meant to lower the burnout, but most of the burnout comes from grinding for prime parts, and not for sortie rewards.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I just want the sortie market to survive, nothing else really.

Edited May 23, 2016 by Magnulast
Added the clearest thing at the end.

[GreyEnneract]

DE already confirmed a sortie token system.

Though in their explanation we would be trading sortie only tokens with Maroo instead of Baro.

[(XBOX)Solargeo]

39 minutes ago, Magnulast said:

 

No, just no.

I understand you might want to make it abundant, and easy to get.

But there has to be a limit to this, Sorties are for players who want to do them, not for players that "need" to do them.

You aren't forced to do it, you are forcing yourself.

Are you secretly planning to kill the trade chat channel of anything sortie based?.

--------------------------------------------------

Honestly OP, you aren't supposed to give hundreds of ducats a day, nor should this be in the sortie reward system.

Next, you shouldn't address burnout by making a bloatware system of rewards.-840 ducats per week? 

First of all, I want to earn a reward, not get a gift out of nowhere.-Lotus hands me 5k plat for no reason.

Second of all, this system gives too much, it pretty much removes the point of grinding.-What's the point of doing anything in the void, or anything in the sortie, when they are pretty much the same thing now?

Third of all, even though this system could be balanced, it's still not good, the Void's market exists because of RNG, the Sortie's market exists because of RNG. And removing that gets what?

-----------------------------------------------

Despite the system having a good structure and fixes a few problems but, the idea of this causes problems, problems that shouldn't be ignored.

It makes the void, the only place that rare items could be acquired and sold.(Syndicate, Arcanes are minimal.)

yeh because getting what you want out of a big loot table and having lot of chance to get extra of something and it turned in to cores is a wonderful idea.

[(PSN)Stealth_Cobra]

I'm all for a system that award void tokens instead of RNG drops.

Personally, I would make it so that Void parts can be purchased using Ducats from a prime vendor... This would allow a player who is unlucky with Void Drops to actually purchase his missing prime parts using an existing resources, and would guarantee time spent in the void would not be wasted, so to speak. Items would have a ducat price based on rarity. This would also fix the need to retire primes, so to speak, as one could spend a high ducat price to get stuff that's no longer in void drop tables anymore at said vendor.

As for sortie rewards, the sortie token idea would work, but personally, I think a reward list rework also needs to happen. Personally, I would move Nezha out of sortie drops put him in Orokin Derelict or somewhere else in the star chart instead, which would remove 4 potential rewards that most people don't care about anymore... Maybe move lenses out of sorties too... I feel a reliable way to farm these should exist somewhere, considering you need plenty of these to fit on all your frames and weapons.

I would also remove stuff like the 25/50 Core packagages... Just give player 25 Cores for finishing sortie 3 every time. Further helping with the sortie reward dillution.

Finally, for the Sortie Weapons rewards, I think the game should scan for which part of a weapon you own first, then award a different part based on what the player already has... Like if I got the blueprint yesterday, instead of trying to give me another blueprint, then converting my reward to a core pack since I already own the blueprint, the game would intelligently check my inventory, see that I do not have the reciever and give me that... To make things more exciting that continually offering wrath gear, they could, every now and then, bring back retired primes as sortie rewards too...

That particular system should also be implemented on warframe parts when killing boss. Like, If I aready have the chassis, the helmet, give me the systems !!!

Edited May 23, 2016 by (PS4)Stealth_Cobra

[Bizzaro21]

its a good idea, but dont make baro bring the season reward, it`ll simply make sortie reward itself a waste, and will definitely kill the trading of these parts, other than that, awesome idea

[(PSN)robotwars7]

not a bad Idea, though using Ducats will create an even wider gap between vets with thousands of Ducats and newer players or big spenders who are low on them. the Former will just be able to buy Sortie rewards like they would an item from Baro, so they wouldn't even need to play Sorties.

personally I say the only changes we need are these:

- remove 25 Cores and replace with 75, and make 50 cores slightly more common to balance it out.

- No repeat weapons; the other rewards can be repeated as they already are, but the weapon must be changed to something else, and not be the same 2 seasons in a row. weapons change each season, but after a few seasons,  a weapon can come back, as there are only so many of them, and some will want a chance at them.

- tokens are awarded if you get a repeat reward, which can be used to purchase items from the Sortie Drop Table (such as needed weapon parts). prices would differ so that you have to do a few days of sorties to be able to afford a part, so you still get a chance for it to drop, and if it doesn't after 3 days, you can just buy it.

just my 2 credits on the matter.