Fixing energy, once and for all

[Fifield]

DE have committed to "reducing cheese".  A lot of cheese comes from spamming abilities.  So do all the exploits.

Hopefully, DE will provide an alternative to Trinity for energy supply soon.  I suspect they haven't done so because they don't know what to do with this whole can of worms.

Either way, since many of the P4TW powers rely on freely available energy supply, it makes sense to look at the latter first.

Spoiler

Please don't delay nerfing the other mapwide CC abilities though.  And consider turning Cunning Drift into a +duration mod.

OK so what's this new yellow bar?

The problem with energy is the large amount available over a whole mission.  There's nothing wrong with chaining a few abilities together -- indeed, abilities that complement each other is part of the design meta.

So what we want to do is limit the total amount of energy any frame can use over any period of time.  This means energy regeneration needs capping.  We also want a soft cap that stores (unusable) energy so that eg Trinity doesn't have to spam EV every few seconds as she currently often does.

So the yellow bar is currently unusable energy that has been collected.  It converts into blue usable energy at a fixed, low rate.

Advantages

1. Cannot be got around ever.  DE will never have to worry about ability spam again.  Even bringing 3 Trinities will not get round this.
2. Isn't aimed directly at Trinity and is thus more palatable to Trin lovers.
3. Energy Vampire may only need casting every 20-30s instead of every 2-3.  This makes Trinity a lot more interesting to play.
3. Is more realistic. Even if our enemies eject their energy packs upon death for some reason, why would they make them compatible with our frames?
4. Doesn't prevent occasional ability spam, unlike cooldowns.  DE doesn't seem to like the latter and I'm not keen either.  If Oberon has saved a legitimate amount of energy, why shouldn't he be able to cast Reckoning, bullet jump, and cast it again a couple of times?

Implementation detail

2 to 1 is a good ratio for maximum usable energy to max unusable energy. Whilst you could have mods to increase this ratio (and probably boost max energy at the same time), we should never have mods that increase the conversion rate.

Going back to individual powers, the disparity between low (with Blind Rage) energy efficiency and maximum is about 500%. This makes balancing energy very difficult.  Nerfing energy supply risks overlimiting ability use on low efficiency builds.  Thus I propose capping energy efficiency at a much lower rate.

If efficiency is capped at 130%, a conversion rate of 12 energy per second means you can replenish a '25 power' in 1.46s and a '100 power' in 5.8s.
If efficiency is capped at 150%, a conversion rate of 10 energy per second means you can replenish a '25 power' in 1.56s and a '100 power' in 6.25s.

Starting energy (both types) would be maxed -- it makes no sense that you haven't used energy pads or similar in your liset.  The current bonus for not using capacity of your frame isn't worth having.

Energy leeching threats would be nerfed.

Energy Siphon, Rift regen, energy pickups and Quick Thinking would need buffing.  With the latter, in addition to buffing the energy/health efficiency, it would have to be the one thing in the game that can use unusable energy.  Zenurik energy and energy pizzas are already OP.

Nuker frames would also need buffing, since their whole point is to spam their nukes.

Alternatives

This guy deserves some credit for his suggestion.  Mine allows occasional ability spam so I prefer it.

 

Edited June 1, 2016 by Fifield

[--Q--uaint]

Ohey,  nice post. Having details is so helpful…

Now that you've given some specifics, I like this suggestion.

1 hour ago, Fifield said:

Thus I propose capping energy efficiency at a much lower rate.

This is silly. As long as we're touching efficiency, make it work how it used to!

Back in the day, +50% efficiency meant that you could cast 50% more… meaning +~33% efficiency in today’s terms. This means you could easily uncap efficiency and allow 200% efficiency with the “current efficiency” being at just 50%.

Also, would Rage give usable or unusable energy?

[(PSN)WiiConquered]

This is definitely an interesting idea. One thing I would say, though, is if DE made the mistake of allowing players to mod around it we'd go right back to where we started. Not saying @Fifield you'd want that, but you may want to explicitly rule it out.

 

@ChronoEclipse I think they should change the stat to "Power Cost", since that's what it really is, and then nerf it. People got confused by the old efficiency system, the same way people do now with reload speed. Power cost is probably more intuitive.

[taiiat]

since your off topic was first:
(Prism has problems that are basically irrelevant to Energy Vampire - casting it and instantly canceling for the Blind costs 12.5E + a couple E more since you're probably not a robot. you can spam it all by yourself)

 

anyways, while it'd work, i'd probably go the other way round, and if so, large sums of Energy gained (or just Energy from certain methods) generate temporary Energy, that drains over time.
with the more of that 'type' of Energy you have, the faster it drains. so still not practical to try and spam as much as possible because it just drains faster then, making it a waste of time.

but, while it drains a portion of it is also converted to 'Energy'. so for example, Rage or Vampire building up 100 Energy, it drains at a percentage of the Energy gained, but a percentage of that is also converted to permanent Energy at the same time.
this allows short term bursting, but to a very limited extent. however still benefits in the long run for future situations.

 

@(PS4)WiiConqueredprobably for the best, yes. Mod formulas that have diminishing returns inevitably cause confusion.

also point #1 that he stated is that there's no way to circumvent it, ever.

[--Q--uaint]

8 minutes ago, taiiat said:

anyways, while it'd work, i'd probably go the other way round, and if so, large sums of Energy gained (or just Energy from certain methods) generate temporary Energy, that drains over time.
with the more of that 'type' of Energy you have, the faster it drains. so still not practical to try and spam as much as possible because it just drains faster then, making it a waste of time.

Does this temporary energy take up normal energy capacity? Does it have a cap?

[taiiat]

3 minutes ago, ChronoEclipse said:

Does this temporary energy take up normal energy capacity? Does it have a cap?

probably, but not sure. you'd definitely be able to override it by picking up 'real' Energy though. we don't want to screw Players that have picked up Energy normally.

and why bother - it drains at a percentage, trying to cram 235923569E into your tank won't do you any good, it'll just drain faster and faster. making the extra units of Energy pointless because you'll never get to use them.

it does also mean, it it isn't clear,  that if you had only a small amount, it drains pretty slowly so at low values it basically acts like normal Energy as it's there for quite a while. but high values quickly drain into smaller ones.

Edited May 27, 2016 by taiiat

[--Q--uaint]

10 minutes ago, taiiat said:

and why bother - it drains at a percentage, trying to cram 235923569E into your tank won’t do you any good, it'll just drain faster and faster. making the extra units of Energy pointless because you'll never get to use them.

Exactly why I think it’s fair to leave it uncapped.

This doesn’t really fix Trinity being an EV-slave, though…

[taiiat]

58 minutes ago, ChronoEclipse said:

Exactly why I think it’s fair to leave it uncapped.

This doesn’t really fix Trinity being an EV-slave, though…

yep, leaving it uncapped just lets me laugh at people trying to 'cram for exams' and actually more than wasting their time.

it does mean that casting it more than periodically is a complete waste of time though.
and unless Trinity has some mechanical adjustments that lets Vampire fuel her cycle of being a Iridium wall without being a exxon valdez of Energy, she still needs to be an oil spill of Energy because she needs it for herself.

[Fifield]

2 hours ago, taiiat said:

anyways, while it'd work, i'd probably go the other way round, and if so, large sums of Energy gained (or just Energy from certain methods) generate temporary Energy, that drains over time.

This doesn't fix the core problem of EV & RJ or whatever spam.

 

[taiiat]

9 minutes ago, Fifield said:

This doesn't fix the core problem of EV & RJ or whatever spam.

Energy is only a sliver of the problem. you can't fix a systemic problem with the majority of the games' mechanics with a single wrench.

the things being abused themselves are part of the problem. everyone has their hand in the cookie jar, you can't just remove one hand and call it problem solved.

[Fifield]

I'm sure your comment is relevant to something.

Anyway, this thread is about fixing the widely-acknowledged ability spam problem.

[(PSN)WiiConquered]

7 hours ago, taiiat said:

Energy is only a sliver of the problem. you can't fix a systemic problem with the majority of the games' mechanics with a single wrench.

the things being abused themselves are part of the problem. everyone has their hand in the cookie jar, you can't just remove one hand and call it problem solved.

I would highly disagree. Energy is a problem because, as it stands, we can basically ignore it. This fix deals with many of those issues at once. Is it the end-all solution? No, but did the OP suggest it was?

[Shockwave-]

Energy is the problem with balance, the OP is spot on. Blind isn't overpowered, Blessing isn't overpowered. 99% dmg reduction is fine for 30 seconds. The ability to spam them one after another is overpowered. When you can use your 4 freely at will, why ever use your 1? The lower cost of your 1 doesn't matter... Why would ash ever use a shuriken?

EV, Zenurik, and endless pizzas at low cost are the problem. Without endless energy balancing frames would be far far easier, as it is now you can't have any ability that is powerful, because you can use that powerful ability at will. What other game has essentially a BFG9000 that doesn't take any ammo?

Energy is the ammo of WF and you have infinite ammo, which is usually a cheat in most other games. They could get rid nullies and shock eximus and tone down enemies if every 4 power could only be used every so often.

[ReshyShira]

The problem with this change is that it would rebound and require changing a lot of other things.

[Kevyne_Kicklighter]

4 hours ago, Shockwave- said:

Energy is the ammo of WF and you have infinite ammo, which is usually a cheat in most other games. They could get rid nullies and shock eximus and tone down enemies if every 4 power could only be used every so often.

What is the reasoning behind DE not liking cool downs? Do they simply like ability spam?

I still can't get over players start the zone with like 25% energy (like how they are after being revived in other games), as it feels like starting off on a negative (why would a driver travel with a nearly empty gas tank, and fill it 50 miles away, when the gas station is around the block???). 25% starting energy has that P2W feel to it, where people buy energy/mana to fill it up instead, too. Why I call those energy pads a "tax", as it feels like it.

[Aearie]

It's an interesting proposal, but I think just reducing energy maximums and giving everyone a natural moderate energy rate that works like shields do would be a simpler change that would work just as well. This would also make energy vampire less necessary since everyone would be able to use their abilities regularly.

Either way though, I think the most important think DE needs to do is fix the energy system, and then worry about energy vampire. Currently, the energy system is an underlying issue for a lot of problems with the game.

[Fifield]

8 hours ago, Shockwave- said:

Energy is the problem with balance, the OP is spot on.

Thanks.

8 hours ago, Shockwave- said:

Blind isn't overpowered, Blessing isn't overpowered. 99% dmg reduction is fine for 30 seconds.

TBH, I think they're overpowered anyway.  If you're going to disable every enemy on the map, it should last 4s at most and not be recastable for ~45s.

Blessing wasn't gamebreaking like Prism in the sense that stuff still attacks you and you can still be stunned.  EV is far more broken.  Lasting for 30s is enough to make you immune to most bosses.  10s would be more reasonable.

Now of course a 10s or even a 5% 99% DR is a permanent 99% DR because it's infinitely recastable.  So you have to severely limit the energy supply somehow.  But you don't want to limit it for low efficiency builds.  That's why efficiency has to be capped much lower.

[Fifield]

6 hours ago, ReshyShira said:

The problem with this change is that it would rebound and require changing a lot of other things.

Like what?  Rage was one thing someone mentioned.  I'm no expert on it so don't feel qualified to comment.

Do you have an alternative other than the one I linked to?  Even that interferes with ability chaining.

[Fifield]

3 hours ago, Thursley said:

It's an interesting proposal, but I think just reducing energy maximums and giving everyone a natural moderate energy rate that works like shields do would be a simpler change that would work just as well. This would also make energy vampire less necessary since everyone would be able to use their abilities regularly.

Hmm, so if a Trin casts EV, what happens to everyone's energy in your idea?

3 hours ago, Thursley said:

Either way though, I think the most important think DE needs to do is fix the energy system, and then worry about energy vampire. Currently, the energy system is an underlying issue for a lot of problems with the game.

Quite right.  You can't just ignore core issues like this.  It's why we have one-shot enemies, nullifiers and Draco P4TW spam.  It's why we had Viver & E-Gate.  It's why we'll have Rhino Stomp and Sound Quake trivialising end game content instead of Prism.  Any fix of frame powers is just a bandaid.  EV, or prefererably energy supply in general, is going to have to be fixed sooner or later.

[Pro3Display]

ye, let's bandaid the phrase "there will never be cooldowns on abilities" with a cooldown on energy usage, sure, makes sense, cause there still will be no cooldown on abilities, right?

[Fifield]

Uhh they're different.  Did you even read the original post?

[JCEMeier]

The problem with capping Energy Efficiency is that you're essentially rebalancing the game with the assumption that players will always have access to EV and Large Restores. A bit like NM raids filled with One Shot mechanics essentially balanced around pre-nerf blessing. If you do a number on energy efficiency then not only are you absolutely LOCKING IN the 'EV or Best' meta, but you're hamstringing players who aren't playing in a full meta comp.

 

Aside from which, the actual problem with powers isn't really that you can use them too often (and anyway, abilities are fun), it's that hard CC powers have no diminishing effects. 

[Fifield]

9 minutes ago, JCEMeier said:

The problem with capping Energy Efficiency is that you're essentially rebalancing the game with the assumption that players will always have access to EV and Large Restores.

Or Medium Energy Restores and everyone does have access to those, at least by the time they get Fleeting Expertise.  Energy efficiency is already capped (at 175%).

But I don't think you understood the suggestion.  I'm proposing capping energy regen too.  This basically does the opposite of what you're saying.

Edited May 28, 2016 by Fifield

[Pro3Display]

and this basically adds a cooldown on abilities despite having 400 energy because it is "locked"

if everyone have access to something doesn't mean that everyone have to get it / do it

if i or you have access to bleach, doesn't mean you or i should drink it

[Shockwave-]

3 hours ago, Fifield said:

Thanks.

TBH, I think they're overpowered anyway.  If you're going to disable every enemy on the map, it should last 4s at most and not be recastable for ~45s.

Blessing wasn't gamebreaking like Prism in the sense that stuff still attacks you and you can still be stunned.  EV is far more broken.  Lasting for 30s is enough to make you immune to most bosses.  10s would be more reasonable.

Now of course a 10s or even a 5% 99% DR is a permanent 99% DR because it's infinitely recastable.  So you have to severely limit the energy supply somehow.  But you don't want to limit it for low efficiency builds.  That's why efficiency has to be capped much lower.

ok well bosses should last more than 30 seconds as well. My statement made certain assumptions about what the game could become and 30 sec DR isn't game breaking unless the "boss" is so wimpy it's done in 20 seconds. Bosses like Kela (the seemingly new direction) would be ripe for a 30 second DR, but i could get on board with 10 or 15 My point was really about the 99% opposed to the 46% you have now (which still results in being one-shotted). I was simply saying that team invulnerability for a time is not OP if it's once in a while. It only becomes a problem when its constant, same with blind.