Mag Rework Feedback [Post Update 18.13]

[giglyfoot]

***BUG NEEDS FIXING***     Since last hotfix, crush damage was significantly reduced. I mean using crush by itself. Says 1500 damage in description, yet I barely hit over 15.

This needs to be fixed. My pull is doing more than crush on the exact same enemies. Hotfix soon please and thank you 

Edited June 7, 2016 by [DE]Taylor
edited to remove spam.

[RealPandemonium]

10 hours ago, giglyfoot said:

***BUG NEEDS FIXING***     Since last hotfix, crush damage was significantly reduced. I mean using crush by itself. Says 1500 damage in description, yet I barely hit over 15.

This needs to be fixed. My pull is doing more than crush on the exact same enemies. Hotfix soon please and thank you 

Cannot reproduce on my end.  Check for Extinguished keys and ensure that you are not fighting enemies with large amounts of Alloy armor.  

[giglyfoot]

7 hours ago, RealPandemonium said:

Cannot reproduce on my end.  Check for Extinguished keys and ensure that you are not fighting enemies with large amounts of Alloy armor.  

Just did Heiracon and sorties and its still bugged. One charger got 41 damage and the one next to it got 413 (per tick) in Phorid sortie, and in Heiracon I managed 6800+ among the half dozen ticks of 68. Before the hotfix it also did bonus damage to magnetized enemies and yet I still only see double digits.

[Sam_munition]

Has everyone complaining about her rework forgotten that it also restores shields? No other 'nuke' ability had a positive buff to its user.. And allies. The rework makes me think this is the intention. The swapping of the ability positions. The massive buff to magnetize over the old bullet attractor. This is meant to be her heal ability. As much as it became a press to nuke before the rework i highly doubt that was the intention when it was first designed. Having a shield 'blessing' with an offensive side effect is pretty damn nice and unique to Mag.

Stop trying to get your polarise to do more damage and focus on her other abilities. Crushs augment melts armour by a percentage whilst also making them stationary ring targets for a short period. The low duration build is also still viable as magnetize's end explosion has great damage (that scales). I have 45% duration on my mag which drops magnetize to 6.5 secs. Fracturing crush leaves survivors immobile for 7 secs. Crush is over and done with in 3 ticks. Magnetize the centre of a mob and then crush them and they have to stand waiting for the explosion whilst you dump a heap of rounds into the bubble. Pull also has good CC to work towards this strategy.

That being said you can also stand in the bubble and use it as make-shift snow globe.

I think her re work is fantastic and moves her firmly into the CC frame she is clearly designed to be. I think polarises animation should be a bit quicker, but i dont understand all this salt..

Edited June 7, 2016 by Sam_munition

[Lindsrhyl]

3 hours ago, Sam_munition said:

Has everyone complaining about her rework forgotten that it also restores shields? No other 'nuke' ability had a positive buff to its user.. And allies. The rework makes me think this is the intention. The swapping of the ability positions. The massive buff to magnetize over the old bullet attractor. This is meant to be her heal ability. As much as it became a press to nuke before the rework i highly doubt that was the intention when it was first designed. Having a shield 'blessing' with an offensive side effect is pretty damn nice and unique to Mag.

Stop trying to get your polarise to do more damage and focus on her other abilities. Crushs augment melts armour by a percentage whilst also making them stationary ring targets for a short period. The low duration build is also still viable as magnetize's end explosion has great damage (that scales). I have 45% duration on my mag which drops magnetize to 6.5 secs. Fracturing crush leaves survivors immobile for 7 secs. Crush is over and done with in 3 ticks. Magnetize the centre of a mob and then crush them and they have to stand waiting for the explosion whilst you dump a heap of rounds into the bubble. Pull also has good CC to work towards this strategy.

That being said you can also stand in the bubble and use it as make-shift snow globe.

I think her re work is fantastic and moves her firmly into the CC frame she is clearly designed to be. I think polarises animation should be a bit quicker, but i dont understand all this salt..

1) Shield polarize ALWAYS restored shields, coz you know... -50% on the enemy and +50% on the allies includes... +50% on the allies.

2) Bullet Attractor was not massively buffed, it was massively NERFED => size reduction (6 to 4, and 6 was already a nerf from 12) and multiplier reduction (x5 to x4 @200% str).

3) Fracturing Crush is a joke which takes a mod slot for a relative armor reduction and that's all, enemies can still shoot at you unless you only play against butchers/infested.

4) Pull now is unreliable in term of CC, it used to ragdoll 100% of the time, now it's somewhat random/bugged.

Have you ever played mag BEFORE that rework? I mean outside of 15 mins on draco?

 

Oh and crush is STILL bugged, some enemies keep ignoring the first two ticks' CC and now we have a kiss cool effect on magnetize that.... is bugged as well, i rarely see numbers above 1000 on the explosion and 100 on dot ticks, even when i charge the globe with S Tigris shots.

 

Again, Mag used to have multiple roles and now, for the godly sake of DPS (just lol) they ruined those roles of her. Can we be salty now?

 

Edit: And i laugh at the "make-shift" snow globe... so much fun standing "protected" in your bullet attractor against, who knows... bombards rockets?

Edited June 7, 2016 by Lindsrhyl

[RealPandemonium]

9 hours ago, giglyfoot said:

Just did Heiracon and sorties and its still bugged. One charger got 41 damage and the one next to it got 413 (per tick) in Phorid sortie, and in Heiracon I managed 6800+ among the half dozen ticks of 68. Before the hotfix it also did bonus damage to magnetized enemies and yet I still only see double digits.

Ancients' damage-reducing auras.  

[tnccs215]

17 minutes ago, Lindsrhyl said:

 

2) Bullet Attractor was not massively buffed, it was massively NERFED => size reduction (6 to 4, and 6 was already a nerf from 12) and multiplier reduction (x5 to x4 @200% str).

3) Fracturing Crush is a joke which takes a mod slot for a relative armor reduction and that's all, enemies can still shoot at you unless you only play against butchers/infested.

 

 

(...)

Again, Mag used to have multiple roles and now, for the godly sake of DPS (just lol) they ruined those roles of her. Can we be salty now?

 

 

AHAJAHAHAJAJAHAHAAHAHHAHAAHHAHHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHA*

*No.

-DoT, scalable explosion, turningenemy fire against them, all this were massive and scalable buffs. Any declamation defending that Magnetize was nerfed, in anyway, is downright ridiculous.

-Oh yes. 50% stackable armor reduction. So awfully bad. Specially since you have no defensive ability against enemies standing close to one another... *coff coff* magnetize*coff coff*

-Lol Mag having multiple roles. I suppose that complete annihilation of an entire faction regardless of level does cover many roles: Farmer, CC (what better crowd control than the one that permanently stops enemies from existing?), damage dealer (against corpus)... Many roles indeed. All of them reduced to press 2 in corpus missions, but many roles indeed.

[Lindsrhyl]

34 minutes ago, tnccs215 said:

AHAJAHAHAJAJAHAHAAHAHHAHAAHHAHHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHA*

 

  Hide contents

*No.

-DoT, scalable explosion, turningenemy fire against them, all this were massive and scalable buffs. Any declamation defending that Magnetize was nerfed, in anyway, is downright ridiculous.

-Oh yes. 50% stackable armor reduction. So awfully bad. Specially since you have no defensive ability against enemies standing close to one another... *coff coff* magnetize*coff coff*

-Lol Mag having multiple roles. I suppose that complete annihilation of an entire faction regardless of level does cover many roles: Farmer, CC (what better crowd control than the one that permanently stops enemies from existing?), damage dealer (against corpus)... Many roles indeed. All of them reduced to press 2 in corpus missions, but many roles indeed.

 

Again, a little of actual playtime wouldn't have hurt.

The DoT is a joke, 40-60 dmg/second after a S tigris shot is going to kill nothing past level...9?

Turning enemy fire at each other? Not really, it makes it point toward the center of the bubble ultimately ending on the C Vor'd body stuck inside (when it's not bugged and the body disappeared). At this spot, nothing, because enemies with legs (well, enemies) tend to walk outside of that bubble, and outside... is not its center (and vice versa).

Then again, the explosion is NOT scalable, just saying, limited to what's between obstacles, let alone walls and thus cant do more room cleaning than what a tonkor would do. Oh and it forces you to stay in the open, etc, etc, etc... It doesn't change the fact one can OS any enemy (excepted some bosses), but now with reduced effectiveness on real tough guys.

 

50% stackable armor reduction? Again, not really. It's 50% RELATIVE (means that let's say 2 CP =-60% armor, and crush will turn that into -80% and not -110 capped at -100)  armor reduction. 6000 -50% = 3000 armor, which still turn your bullets into mere mosquito stings (and i dont know for you but when a mosquito bites me, i dont feel it. It doesnt last long enough to be useful because power strength, duration and efficiency do not go well together. Oh and tough enemies are like normal enemies, driven by the same AI, and when there's one close to you, he's rarely alone, so what do you do? Spam Crush?

 

Now, about the roles, let me educate you, read.

 

On 28/05/2016 at 11:46 PM, Lindsrhyl said:

So...

It doesn't take a decade of playing a frame to see its nice points, its pros, its cons, find one's way, and adapt if necessary. All of the future statements come from experience, in my case, 50 and 9 percent (prime and non prime) of play time (760h).

And if Mag is actually magnetism based (who could guess that?), a point that may make its user focus on a certain faction, this frame had so many uses the only missions i'd not bring her on were tier 3 corpus spy (and only because i'm not THAT good at parkour) and high bleed/toxin proc missions.

 

Now i think no one needs to be introduced to Oberon, the dude's a bad &#! and he literally can do EVERYTHING! And here's a list in case you still had doubts:

1. Healing (and stalling from a safe place while waiting for tough revives on hard missions) with his 3
2. Crowd Control, with his 4, not to mention it causes RAD proc and may give you time to deal stealth/counterattack finishers as it blinds
3. Buffing with his 1 (augment) and 2 (armor buff, knockdown resistance)
4. Trash sweeping, his 4 has the second highest base damage of the ''4 Nukes'' after mag's 1500

And yet so few people played him (and many asked for a rework, see where we're going...) and considered him subpar.

Now about Mag:

1. Healing, sorta with her 2 it had the advantage over Oberon's to be completely instantaneous and % based.
2. Crowd Control, with her 1 and 4. Pull was awesome, and still is. Crush, when you go 175%eff + zenurik is an awesome CC tool, comparable to what was Mirage's prism.
3. Buffing, I consider Bullet Attractor as a buff because come on x5 dmg + free headshots with any kind of weapon just by shooting on the bubble's top...
4. Trash sweeping Crush dealing 1500, every unarmored enemy under level 40 will likely be killed in one pass at 185+% power str.

And yet so few people played her (and many asked for a rework, and here we are...) and considered her subpar.

 

And then there is Limbo... Well, i never played Limbo so i wont make any comparison but you guys sure see my point.

 

Now, DE "tweaked" (word that can mean anything depending on who says it) her skill set to be more 'cohesive'. Well, the actual word would still begin by 'coh' but should be 'coherent'. Coherent with the image people had of her (right before the SP mania that began when sorties arrived). Because let's face it, what did this rework bring to us?

1. Healing capacities were greatly hindered. You cannot quickheal/save an almost dying teammate (as a mag, keep a supporting mind and check the HUD regularly).
2. Crowd Control, well, luckily Pull and Crush were not modified, so.... izgood. Magnetize/BA now somehow looks like Crowd Control.
3. Buffing, Bullet Attractor still attract bullets and projectiles but the buff at 200% str went from x5 to x4, so much for "a buff to an unused skill", range got decreased too. And it remanence is more of an annoyance than anything else. (tac hint, if one wants to create choke points, vauban exists)
4. Trash Sweeping got unmodified, more on that later.

This is purely comparative and focuses on precise points (here, the skills themselves). So it wouldn't be correct not to complement it with broader view's points.

1. Skill Combos: nope. Yes, no. 2+1 is useless, the energy orb is an unreliable kiss cool effect to something you'd never want to do because it has no actual first nice effect. 2+4 is the same kind of insult as giving +25 health to the only frame without prime buff. 3+2... i'd like to see it dealing 25% of many multiplied tonkor/S_Tigris shots damage, every second, on AoE. Until then (and i'll test it) nope.
2. A completely counter intuitive skill placement. Seriously... i used to press 2 for a quick heal/overshield  and 3 to blast tough guys, because YES i used 3, and a lot (175% eff helps tho) and every Mag mainer here should be in the same situation. Come on, if you wanted to make Magnetize cost 50 NRJ, you should simply JUST have modified it's cost.
3. Gotta test the passive's range, but i'm pretty sure i'll have a good laugh. Gpull was a reason to mute teammates but also an excellent treasure hunting tool. I'm ready for built-in carrier.
4. The new sounds are awful. That's only my opinion but i highly preferred the old ones.

 

So on top of adding nothing to her old move set, they actually removed some of her uses reducing them to CC and cleaning low level rooms (the buff stuff can still be used but as i said, wont be as good as before and your teammates will hate you). I'm still pretty sure DE wanted to change the one trick pony image she had...

 

So yes, it's a rant, and i'm almost 100% sure it won't change anything. But it would be nice if DE (or any game company) could take advices from the community for their future core modification. If it may lower the chances of happy surprises, it would otherwise increase hype and negate the risks of disappointments.

 

What's your opinion on all that?

 

You can see that at no point i talked about dmg against corpus, press 2 to win, farm... (and yeah, in case it's not obvious i "kinda" disliked your smartass tone <= gonna get censored)

Edited June 7, 2016 by Lindsrhyl
Better explanation on the Crush augment stuff

[motorfirebox]

1 hour ago, Lindsrhyl said:

Again, a little of actual playtime wouldn't have hurt.

The DoT is a joke, 40-60 dmg/second after a S tigris shot is going to kill nothing past level...9?

Turning enemy fire at each other? Not really, it makes it point toward the center of the bubble ultimately ending on the C Vor'd body stuck inside (when it's not bugged and the body disappeared). At this spot, nothing, because enemies with legs (well, enemies) tend to walk outside of that bubble, and outside... is not its center (and vice versa).

Then again, the explosion is NOT scalable, just saying, limited to what's between obstacles, let alone walls and thus cant do more room cleaning than what a tonkor would do. Oh and it forces you to stay in the open, etc, etc, etc... It doesn't change the fact one can OS any enemy (excepted some bosses), but now with reduced effectiveness on real tough guys.

I keep pointing out, I've been topping damage and kills with Mag, using Magnetize almost exclusively, since the rework. The DOT is enormous if you gear right. My preferred weapon is Quanta Vandal with gas damage. After a few seconds of charging the bubble—or just hitting it with a cube if I'm in a hurry—the DOT will one-shot pretty much anything that walks into it, up to and including sortie 3 heavy Grineer.

[tnccs215]

1 hour ago, Lindsrhyl said:

Again, a little of actual playtime wouldn't have hurt.

The DoT is a joke, 40-60 dmg/second after a S tigris shot is going to kill nothing past level...9?

dude, I got a 4k dmg/s after a full clip from my akstilleto prime. Where the hell did you got those numbers?

1 hour ago, Lindsrhyl said:

Turning enemy fire at each other? Not really, it makes it point toward the center of the bubble ultimately ending on the C Vor'd body stuck inside (when it's not bugged and the body disappeared). At this spot, nothing, because enemies with legs (well, enemies) tend to walk outside of that bubble, and outside... is not its center (and vice versa):

Well, thats why crush is so nice. Because it stucks them in there.

1 hour ago, Lindsrhyl said:

Then again, the explosion is NOT scalable,

Dude

Have you actually played her?

I've been annihilating level 130 C. Heavy gunners on simulacrum with the explosion and you are telling me it doesn't happen?

1 hour ago, Lindsrhyl said:

cant do more room cleaning than what a tonkor would do.

nothing can do more room cleaning than tonkor.

tonkor shouldn't do as much room cleaning as tonkor.

1 hour ago, Lindsrhyl said:

Oh and it forces you to stay in the open,

not really no.

 

1 hour ago, Lindsrhyl said:

6000 -50% = 3000 armor, which still turn your bullets into mere mosquito stings

In the moment a weapon that effectively does more than double damage is still nothing than a mosquito sting, I think the problem isnt the power, but enemy scaling.

You know

the think they are revisioning right now.

And when -50% armor is worthless, everything but 4x CP is too.

You are, again, falling in the "either it's OP or useless" pit. Stop.

1 hour ago, Lindsrhyl said:

It doesnt last long enough to be useful because power strength, duration and efficiency do not go well together.

Only if you desperately insist on min-maxing. My 128%Dur/130%Eff/145%Rng/185%Str Build with Fracturing Crush is quite marvelous actually.

1 hour ago, Lindsrhyl said:

Oh and tough enemies are like normal enemies, driven by the same AI, and when there's one close to you, he's rarely alone, so what do you do? Spam Crush?

O'course not! You silly!

I use magnetize!

Because they are now immovable and wont fight against its gravitationa pull, giving me more than enough time to completely destroy them.

1 hour ago, Lindsrhyl said:

"Now i think no one needs to be introduced to Oberon, the dude's a bad &amp;#&#33; and he literally can do EVERYTHING!

I'm sorry...

WHAT?

Are you seriously presenting Oberon as a model frame?! Are you playing the same game as everyone else?! Because anyone who thinks Oberon is a-ok does not understand warframe.

-redundant 1st and 4th powers? Check

-second power that gives less armor to those who most need it, and more to those who less need it, while effectively locking you to a rather small space on a game ij which mobility is everything? Check

-healing with contradictory characteristics-- demanding preventive use due to travel time and being a HoT, while simultaneously demanding reactionary use, by being meaningless if you fuly heal? Check

-schizofrenic ultimate, that attempts to do everything, failing at most effectively? Double check!

Just because he does "everything" doesn't mean he does any of it well.

Your credibility was already low, now it's completely inexistent.

Also everything you said next is really just repeating yourself. And, again, ignoring the massive buff Magnetize got.

Also, now you have to press 2 instead of 3 and vice versa. Cry me a river, I got used to it in less than 10 minutes. Just like everyone else.

Only debatably valid criticism you have implied there is the higher cost of Polarize.

Btw, if you claim Oberon's heal is a-ok even though having travel time, while saying that Mag's effectiveness as a "healer" got reduced- even though it'll take at most 5 seconds for your allies to be "healed"-- not to mention how shields never saved anyone's life except for Mag's--, well... You are kinda invalidating yourself, no? Because if Oberon's ok, so is Mag... And if Mag is not ok, so isn't Oberon...

Plus, you didn't got back to the trash sweeping.

In the end, all you said was either "its ok", it's slightly worse", "I don't like it" or so blatantly wrong it's not worth mentioning. No combos? Are you joking with me?

 

1 hour ago, Lindsrhyl said:

You can see that at no point i talked about dmg against corpus, press 2 to win, farm...

Just because you didnt mention what most people do doesnt automatically mean your criticism is valid.

1 hour ago, Lindsrhyl said:

(and yeah, in case it's not obvious i "kinda" disliked your smartass tone <= gonna get censored)

I didnt like your lack of valid arguments.

 

Don't take me wrong. I don't completely disagree with you. I agree with this:

1 hour ago, Lindsrhyl said:

Again, a little of actual playtime wouldn't have hurt.

Indeed. Indeed it wouldnt do you no harm.

Edited June 7, 2016 by tnccs215

[RealPandemonium]

17 minutes ago, tnccs215 said:

-Oh yes. 50% stackable armor reduction. So awfully bad. Specially since you have no defensive ability against enemies standing close to one another... *coff coff* magnetize*coff coff*

 

Fracturing Crush's armor reduction doesn't stack; it only refreshes.  It doesn't change with power strength either.  

[tnccs215]

Just now, RealPandemonium said:

Fracturing Crush's armor reduction doesn't stack; it only refreshes.  It doesn't change with power strength either.  

About that...

the wiki is wrong. Yes, it is true that it doesn't change with power strength, but it does stack. Put 2 fracturing crushes one atop the other and they will apply a 75% Armor reduction for the time both exist.

[RealPandemonium]

55 minutes ago, tnccs215 said:

About that...

the wiki is wrong. Yes, it is true that it doesn't change with power strength, but it does stack. Put 2 fracturing crushes one atop the other and they will apply a 75% Armor reduction for the time both exist.

Will test and if confirmed I will edit the wiki to reflect reality.  

Edit: Confirmed.  Will change the wiki accordingly.  

Edited June 7, 2016 by RealPandemonium

[PB_Miracle]

Thanks, DE

Hi everyone, i think it is time for some honest, constructive feedback.  So Personally, i haven't been a big fan of the previous Mag. Now i think she is a great deal more fun than the previous press-2-to-win Mag. 

So i think i have a great idea for Mags abilities!  And frankly, this should be in the rework already. 

Personally, i built her for a bit duration, a bit efficiency and a lot of Range with some nice strength.  a bit of everything, really.. with above average Range and strength. This allows me to have a good bonus to all her abilities.

Now, the synergy between her 2 and 3 is OK thanks to the shards thing. However the synergy with her 1 and 4 is laughable. Bonus damage is not what i expected... I do think her ult kinda helps the Magnetize, pull in enemies into it. But casting it in endgame probably kills you since mag does not have survive ability (at least not with my play style) so here's what i think:

Her second ability is (understandably) not great at keeping things in it's range. It is strong nevertheless... so for my idea let's change the magnetic pull it has. It should be strong at the very center but weak at the edge. Also, if enemies are in the center, they should block each others space, so that if there are 10 enemies inside the bubble, not all of them can fit inside the center where the force is strongest..... This makes her second useless if enemies are just, tipping the edge of the bubble a bit. But kinda strong if they are at the center due to the stronger pull. Also, it doesn't make the pull at the center OP cause only about 4 enemies, or so should be able to be in the radius where the pull is strongest. P.S. Remove the self damage :/ ......

Now this may seem strange until you hear the second part of my idea.

Her first ability, Pull should not be in a position  where it works against her strongest ability. Her Magnetize. Pulling enemies out the bubble? Seriously? i think that her first ability should work differently on enemies affected by her 2nd, than on enemies that are not. My idea is that, her Pull should cancel out the weakness of  her 2nd ability (the weak spot of Magnetize as i suggested to change it). The weak magnetic affection that Magnetize has, on enemies that are at the edge of the bubble. Rather than pulling enemies out of the bubble, it should pull them towards the center of it. So, enemies that are not affected by Magnetize should as normally be pulled towards Mag. Enemies that are affected by her 2, should be pulled towards its center. To explain this differently: enemies not affected by Magnetize, are pulled towards her; while making the magnetic pull of her Magnetize bubble suck enemies into itself.

Survival ability:I think she should have more of that since her abilities are a little CC-ish but casting the instantly kills you. so rather than casting abilities kills you;(cause now, if you don't move [in endgame] you're dead.)  it should help you stay alive.  So maybe make her second be there instantly but still have the cast animation. rather than creating the bubble after the animation finished.  So you cast it, you got it.   Also, casting crush, kills you because enemies are not effected by it's "stun" upon entering the area of effect, but are affected by it when you move your hands.... i hope you understand.

 

In Conclusion:  Make her Pull ability work with her Magnetize rather than against it. And casting an ability shouldn't kill you.

Please make this dream come true :P 

[Lindsrhyl]

Too lazy to clean quoting stuff...

Quote

a full clip from my akstilleto prime

Quote

on simulacrum

Just with this, there is nothing to argue on anymore. You say i have no valid argument, but ignoring them do not make them disappear. (Insulting them do not make you right either, if you want to have "credibility", take that as an advice, but it's good not to say others don't have, even if it's true. Taking it personal doesn't help either, so now you know)

 

Now, i've said it before, somewhere, but i use a 197%str / 190%rang / 175%eff / 12%dur. A build (i recycled from my previous mag) made for a quick magnetize, double tigris shot (2x2 = 4), and boom! on PAPER, it should deal 25k+ dmg on 37m around the center, decreasing with the range. In reality, it doesn't, and the DoT IS 40-60 dmg/sec on armored targets. In less than 2 seconds, it's over, the map is (should be) cleaned.

But i've said it and people can actually make their own maths, compare with their own builds etc...

Then you must provide technical data to back your saying, because stating you killed lvl 130 C heavies do not mean anything AT ALL. How? and more important HOW LONG did it take? Because of the two next points.

Then i'm talking about actual gameplay, vs enemies in rooms where they can spawn from everywhere, and sometimes on wide maps where high level enemies, with higher detection range and accuracy can spawn behind you and/or shoot you from a distance, not simulacrum with everything it is about. 145% range cant save you from hordes of high level enemies shooting from 360° around you, crush being both too short and unreliable and multiple pulls giving time to people inside the bubble to go out, not to mention you may pull them out of it too which is like shooting a bullet to your foot.

After that you must understand that an augment mod MUST NOT be mandatory. A test made with the use of fracturing crush is NOT valid.

 

Then and it's important, your personal opinions about skills are not arguments. That oberon stuff could have made me laugh if i wasn't sure you were serious about it. It's off topic by the way, oh yeah mind that too : it was in the quote but you should be able to separate the important stuff from the off topic.

 

 

Now believe me, i'm not saying you've done something wrong. I'm telling you how to do it right, if you ever want to.

On another hand, i agree with the fact oberon's 1 is kinda redundant with 4 and saying it's an awesome skill when coupled with its augment that adds a new role to his kit would be hypocritical (yet i swur, i love playing oberon, and it includes the augment, and 2 really is underrated).

 

 

Oh and... while testing i found something that would make some people laugh, some other say stuff like "i knew it" and some... well:

Magnetize's explosion damage is modified by it's duration, that's why i got crappy explosions. A 12%dur Magnetize (with full efficiency) with many people inside (taking low dots) will do less damage on explosion than a 12X%dur one (at the cost of efficiency, sadly) with me running around, kiting butchers none of them being inside the bubble taking dots.

Which is the reason why gas quanta and its procs (or any other weapon) can do nice dmg after a certain amount of seconds which is... good when you are safe from freshly spawned annoyers in your back. Again, it is not comparable because, when you need the explosion right now because you're under heavy fire... nope, you have to wait 10 seconds.

[MagPrime]

1 hour ago, Lindsrhyl said:

-snip-

Oh and... while testing i found something that would make some people laugh, some other say stuff like "i knew it" and some... well:

Magnetize's explosion damage is modified by it's duration, that's why i got crappy explosions. A 12%dur Magnetize (with full efficiency) with many people inside (taking low dots) will do less damage on explosion than a 12X%dur one (at the cost of efficiency, sadly) with me running around, kiting butchers none of them being inside the bubble taking dots.

Which is the reason why gas quanta and its procs (or any other weapon) can do nice dmg after a certain amount of seconds which is... good when you are safe from freshly spawned annoyers in your back. Again, it is not comparable because, when you need the explosion right now because you're under heavy fire... nope, you have to wait 10 seconds.

Er, yes Duration will increase your Magnetize damage but that's mainly due to how much damage it's able to absorb and then deal as bonus damage. 

Abilities without mods

 

Magnetize with mods; range + Strength

 

I've experimented with a short duration, Magnetize focused build but, that only works if you fast-cast the ability on something that it about to die or something that is easily killable because you only get the explosion upon death of the target.  I found that it's not worth the effort simply because the amount of damage needed to be worthwhile would require a longer duration.

[tnccs215]

21 minutes ago, Lindsrhyl said:

Just with this, there is nothing to argue on anymore.

why.

23 minutes ago, Lindsrhyl said:

You say i have no valid argument, but ignoring them do not make them disappear.

Im not ignoring you. you simply don't. the scalabilty and the duration added to Magnetize tremendously offset the "nerfs" it got.

24 minutes ago, Lindsrhyl said:

Now, i've said it before, somewhere, but i use a 197%str / 190%rang / 175%eff / 12%dur. A build (i recycled from my previous mag) made for a quick magnetize, double tigris shot (2x2 = 4), and boom! on PAPER, it should deal 25k+ dmg on 37m around the center, decreasing with the range. In reality, it doesn't, and the DoT IS 40-60 dmg/sec on armored targets. In less than 2 seconds, it's over, the map is (should be) cleaned.

So, in short, your criticism is: Mag no longuer works with my build, therefore she sucks?

Because that's basically it. Have you tried to adapt and not manage to get a good peformance, that would be understandable. But you are actively refusing to adapt. You are basically saying a rework is bad because it punishes Corrupted Mod abuse! That's simply ridiculous! corrupted Mod abuse was what led to overpowered frames and cheese powers in the first place! And you are basically complaining that your min-maxed build no longuer works is a proof the rework is bad?

Indeed there is no point in arguing further! But since I'm an idiot, lets continue!

29 minutes ago, Lindsrhyl said:

Then you must provide technical data to back your saying, because stating you killed lvl 130 C heavies do not mean anything AT ALL. How? and more important HOW LONG did it take? Because of the two next points.

Sure, provide your technical data too.

Here's mine:

This is my build:

This is my equipment:

These are my enemies:

This is me, crushing them for the first time (I crushed them twice):

This is me, observing their beautiful lack of armor after I polarize them:

Welp, Magnetize timer's ending! better cast again! also, let's shoot them a bit:

Aaaaand a bit more (notice that gorgeous 3237 DoT on them): 

Only 3 seconds passed (also,DoT almost on 4k!)! lets shoot some more: 

oh... the previous buble died... and all that's left is the bugged carcass of the explosion's host... 

49 minutes ago, Lindsrhyl said:

and more important HOW LONG did it take? 

Surely faster than any Bullet Attractor Build previous to the rework. Indeed, faster than any Mag build previous to the rework...

Well, of course... unless you count the high range, high efficiency, high power strength build for Shield Polarize on Corpus maps... which is really the only possible build that no longer works on Mag....As it should be.

52 minutes ago, Lindsrhyl said:

 145% range cant save you from hordes of high level enemies shooting from 360° around you

It can and it has saved.

53 minutes ago, Lindsrhyl said:

After that you must understand that an augment mod MUST NOT be mandatory. A test made with the use of fracturing crush is NOT valid.

Hey hey, you were the one saying Fracturing Crush was useless! I simply argued and proved wrong! I never said it was nor should be mandatory!

You can't point out the uselessness of Fracturing Crush as a proof that "even with it" Crush is bad, and than say it is irrelevant after you are proved wrong.

57 minutes ago, Lindsrhyl said:

Then and it's important, your personal opinions about skills are not arguments.

Says the person that insists on pointing out how they don't like the new sound effects (which, quite ironically, I enjoy).

Also, says the person who insists a rework is bad because their old build no longuer works with it.

Also, any argument is an opinion. What you mean is "personal taste opinions, which are based on personal preference and not logical arguments-- that is, that can be reduced to "I (don't) like this because I do(n't)-- cannot be used as arguments". unfortunetly for you, I didn't do so. And if i did, I also threw quite a lot of arguments to back it up.

1 hour ago, Lindsrhyl said:

That oberon stuff could have made me laugh if i wasn't sure you were serious about it.

Lawl same.

1 hour ago, Lindsrhyl said:

It's off topic by the way

I know. But you can deduce a lot from a person by knowing their other opinions. 

 

1 hour ago, Lindsrhyl said:

Now believe me, i'm not saying you've done something wrong.

Well, since you are bothering yourself to say this.... it's kinda implied that you are.

 

1 hour ago, Lindsrhyl said:

yet i swear, i love playing oberon, and it includes the augment, and 2 really is underrated

Well, you are entitled to do what you like.

of course, claiming that he can be considered a model frame is a different matter entirely.

Also: meh. It has some uses as a status denial blanket-- quite useful on Infested missions -- but beyond that.... not that much.

1 hour ago, Lindsrhyl said:

Magnetize's explosion damage is modified by it's duration, that's why i got crappy explosions. A 12%dur Magnetize (with full efficiency) with many people inside (taking low dots) will do less damage on explosion than a 12X%dur one (at the cost of efficiency, sadly) with me running around, kiting butchers none of them being inside the bubble taking dots.

So, instead of adapting, you come to the forums complain about how crap it is now; and instead of putting those bubles on strategically important places-- places on which butchers pass and die because they aren't that resistant-- you simply run around and blame "nerfed abilities" for not doing as well?

Look, unlearning old habits can be tricky, but blaming your poor performance on bad ability design is simply childish. You are possibly the only person that thinks Magnetize was better prior to the rework. And that could be legitimate, but you simply don't have the arguments to back it up. You say it doesn't work as well on your build, optimized for the old bullet attractor's charactheristics-- and not for the new ones-- while completely forgetting that that build is a freak! No negative stats should be rewarding, in any way! that completely undoes the point of corrupted mods-- sacrifice Y for greater X! Getting double benefits should never, ever, happen! 

And more: Magnetize works better than Bullet attractor! But, as I said it before, you refuse to adapt to it! the quality of something should be judged by its potential and dynamism-- in, of course, non game breaking conditions-- and not by it's performance on builds that should be discouraged in the first place!

Christ, whats so hard to understand on that?

1 hour ago, Lindsrhyl said:

Which is the reason why gas quanta and its procs (or any other weapon) can do nice dmg after a certain amount of seconds which is... good when you are safe from freshly spawned annoyers in your back.

Which is always if you know when to position yourself. that's the beautiful thing about Mag. now you actually have to consider the map to your advantage or detriment.

1 hour ago, Lindsrhyl said:

 Again, it is not comparable because, when you need the explosion right now because you're under heavy fire... nope, you have to wait 10 seconds.

Oh, partially agreed. That is why so many people, me included, have said that a way to prematurely explode the bubble is a very nice QoL, since tactical control needs control over your own things, and warframe tends to not be predictable beyond some few seconds-- unless it's defence or interception.

Funny enough, I'm not seeing you proposing nothing of the sort. Just complaining the rework is "bad".

[motorfirebox]

1 hour ago, Lindsrhyl said:

Magnetize's explosion damage is modified by it's duration, that's why i got crappy explosions. A 12%dur Magnetize (with full efficiency) with many people inside (taking low dots) will do less damage on explosion than a 12X%dur one (at the cost of efficiency, sadly) with me running around, kiting butchers none of them being inside the bubble taking dots.

Which is the reason why gas quanta and its procs (or any other weapon) can do nice dmg after a certain amount of seconds which is... good when you are safe from freshly spawned annoyers in your back. Again, it is not comparable because, when you need the explosion right now because you're under heavy fire... nope, you have to wait 10 seconds.

Dude, if you're under heavy fire, you don't need an explosion. You need a nice, long-duration bubble to stand in while you sort things out.

[TheLexiConArtist]

1 hour ago, Lindsrhyl said:

low DoT after Tigris

@tnccs215

I have reason to believe that Magnetise is currently bugged such that it does not properly inherit Pellets from shotgun-like weapons. My Brakk similarly seems to cause a low absoprtion of damage into DoT compared to a multiple bullet spraying alternative (Azima).

This also follows logically from the poor mechanical interaction shotguns generally seem to have with Nullifier shields as well in my experience (pellets not counting individually, therefore falling afoul of the cap-per-'bullet' of shield shrinking).

 

So, both of you can ease off; you're both right. Magnetise DoT is huge with the right gear (continuous weapons especially), but it doesn't always do what it should be doing (shotguns).

 

Confirmation needed: Does the damage over time correctly inherit from critical stats, or is the bubble essentially treated as taking object-damage despite passing the weapon fire itself in to crit as normal?

Some arbitrary Simulacrum work appeared to show that despite all being continuous weapons, Synapse and Amprex seemed to charge a lot less DoT power than an Ignis or Quanta did.

Edited June 8, 2016 by EDYinnit

[tnccs215]

1 minute ago, EDYinnit said:

@tnccs215

I have reason to believe that Magnetise is currently bugged such that it does not properly inherit Pellets from shotgun-like weapons. My Brakk similarly seems to cause a low absoprtion of damage into DoT compared to a multiple bullet spraying alternative (Azima).

This also follows logically from the poor mechanical interaction shotguns generally seem to have with Nullifier shields as well in my experience (pellets not counting individually, therefore falling afoul of the cap-per-'bullet' of shield shrinking).

Mh... interesting... thanks for the heads up.

 

2 minutes ago, EDYinnit said:

Confirmation needed: Does the damage over time correctly inherit from critical stats, or is the bubble essentially treated as taking object-damage despite passing the weapon fire itself in to crit as normal? Despite all being continuous weapons, Synapse and Amprex seem to charge a lot less DoT power than an Ignis or Quanta do.

I'm really not sure... I could swear weapons such as the tysis-- yeah, the tysis-- have a strangely high build up... though I might be wrong.

I need to do more testing.

[Sam_munition]

11 hours ago, Lindsrhyl said:

1) Shield polarize ALWAYS restored shields, coz you know... -50% on the enemy and +50% on the allies includes... +50% on the allies.

2) Bullet Attractor was not massively buffed, it was massively NERFED => size reduction (6 to 4, and 6 was already a nerf from 12) and multiplier reduction (x5 to x4 @200% str).

3) Fracturing Crush is a joke which takes a mod slot for a relative armor reduction and that's all, enemies can still shoot at you unless you only play against butchers/infested.

4) Pull now is unreliable in term of CC, it used to ragdoll 100% of the time, now it's somewhat random/bugged.

Have you ever played mag BEFORE that rework? I mean outside of 15 mins on draco?

 

Oh and crush is STILL bugged, some enemies keep ignoring the first two ticks' CC and now we have a kiss cool effect on magnetize that.... is bugged as well, i rarely see numbers above 1000 on the explosion and 100 on dot ticks, even when i charge the globe with S Tigris shots.

 

Again, Mag used to have multiple roles and now, for the godly sake of DPS (just lol) they ruined those roles of her. Can we be salty now?

 

Edit: And i laugh at the "make-shift" snow globe... so much fun standing "protected" in your bullet attractor against, who knows... bombards rockets?

1. I never said it was a new feature, considering this a mag rework thread I'm pretty sure everyone knows how the abilities work and you have misconstrued what I said. I was simply recalling that this ability has 2 uses. The 'MORE POWER' comments that everyone is making is a pretty unrealistic request. This is not a pure damage ability and the fact that it did so much damage pre re-work as well as restoring shields is the cause of the nerf.

2. Locking a unit down, and having it synergise with other abilities IS a buff. The term buff is not exclusive to raw damage.

3. Fracturing Crush's armour debuff stacks and with CP is very useful. If you are referring to the immobilise it causes allowing enemies to still fire at you, well don't stand still, simple as that. If you are referring to your comment about crush's bug where units are ignoring the CC, I have never had this happen.. at all, not with pull either.

4. See above.

I main mag, and yes that included the 3 years before the rework. I have used the magnetize explosion in both corpus and grineer sorties and I can confirm that it was doing between 10-20k damage on lvl 60-100 units. Well above the numbers you quoted and that was with middle tier weapons like the stravadar and amprex. EDIT: Shotgun bug may be a thing, I have not personally tried shotguns with magnetise.

She has more roles against more factions with the rework.. Have you even played her?

Laugh away, my magnetise lasts 6 seconds, I dont intend to try and substitute snow globe like for like. I used the term make shift for a reason. That being said, if you used magnetise properly, the bombards would be the units you were locking down.

Edited June 8, 2016 by Sam_munition

[Kevrex97]

has anyone have noticed that there is a bug where a few enemies wouldnt be striped of armor? was doing the shorties today with mag and noticed like a few common units like HGs,Butchers and even lancers werent being stripped yet i  see it strip the armor of eximus units a good majority of the time.

[Lindsrhyl]

And that's the problem...

You've tested in the simulacrum were enemies do not spawn by themselves, rooting yourself on place for the duration of two crushes + two magnetizes at 128% duration + a polarize cast. That's 6 + 40 (a bit less if they all died before the second bubble end *) + 1.5 = 47,5 seconds. Ok let's say you could do it with one magnetize, it would be 27,5. And since you proved you can't...

Then you've spent 2x70 + 2x35 + 53 = 263 energy.

 

All that for 5 poor heavies that spawned in a single spot and who will never get backup.
Now, do you get my point when i say that the simulacrum is NOT something you can use when talking about the viability of a frame/skill?

 

Again, if your "advice" about placing oneself is as worthy as your opinion on how oberon's heal works and your take on how a support player shouldn't be proactive and keep an eye on the hud to do his stuff even before the "before it's too late"...  And i'm not even talking again about the rooting stuff you showed in the simulacrum, srsly.
Mind that being on the run saved me more than crush, and shield polarize actually used to save lives. You just have to be a little map aware instead of, you know... focusing on a bubble for more than half a minute.

Then, sorry but yes, you are ignoring stuff and/or understanding it the way you want. I'm not complaining about magnetize being bad, actually, in my day to day playing, its stats do not have any impact. I used to OS stuff, and now, i OS stuff... and if i need splash damage, there are rocket and grenade launchers. And i've said it, you just kept something inside something else because it fitted better your argumentation. Fact is, when the advertised advantages do not appear, and both power and range are diminished, I am sorry, but it is called a nerf, and you cant deny it. Well you can apparently, but it's wrong.
It's true i complained about something, but it's the fact one coded it using his feets. (And no, it doesnt work better now than before since now, two magnetizes tend to mess with each other, what they didnt before, and well, there were not so many mags before so... A point exacerbated by the fact now bubbles stay here after the target's death).

Forgive me if i don't pay attention to the taunting stuff and other points that did not deserve any.

 

Now it's plausible the bubble is considered as a nullifier bubble like X said but that would be awkward when we consider @motorfirebox's post who pointed the damage similitude between many seconds of quanta shots (with all the ticks taken by the bubble first) and a single cube which hit many enemies at the same time/frame.

Then @EDYinnit pointed the fact it has "object flesh" if it can be called this way so it would be nice to find a weapon that deals around 25k damage in one single bullet without critical hits (maybe an opticor)

This stuff requires so much testing. Infos from DE would be a minimal service.

And I'd like to get examples of new mag roles she didn't have before because a would-be vauban isn't one for me. Just like a Magnetize is not a safe place to be in when bombards are around (i obviously talk about the ones that come in pack, protected by nullifier bubbles and ancients, thanks sam).

[TheLexiConArtist]

24 minutes ago, Lindsrhyl said:

Then @EDYinnit pointed the fact it has "object flesh" if it can be called this way so it would be nice to find a weapon that deals around 25k damage in one single bullet without critical hits (maybe an opticor)

It might do this. I have nothing but anecdotal feeling to show for this theory. Could equally just be a quirk of how continuous weapons work, with the low "fire rate" Quanta still producing the same stream of particles meaning it may be magnifying the damage ouput more than the critical stats of the faster firing Amprex/Synapse for some reason (the Ignis' innate multishot causing a similar outcome, perhaps).

 

Might take a look in later. Sensor Regulators in the Simulacrum will immunise against enemy fire and procs muddying the waters of what DoT comes out.

[Tatersail]

It was one of the highest damage frames in game, now its just a pretty standard nuker that scales out pretty fast.  Almost all the 4h+ runs have had a mag pumping the damage.

 

Sure magnetize decent, but, it always was people simply didn't know about it because they only played mag to pull during that ugly mesa phase and AOE during Vivergate.

Its also very annoying for players using weapons, similar to Nyx Absorb it prevents players from dealing damage near it.  4 of these at close range in wave 60 of a T4 defense can wipe a party pretty fast as nobody can shoot incoming enemies.

 

When Nova "changed" her role shifted from map wipe to debuffer / cc / utility

When Saryn was "changed" her role shifted from damage to Viral debuffer

Excal and Frost seem to have avoided these "changes" getting flat buffs in almost every area

My problem with this Mag change is now I can't see why I would use mag over other frames that bring more dps (she has wandered dangerously close to Oberon territory).

 

 

I get the idea to generally "Nerf" and "tone down" frames bit by bit in an effort to reduce the level of what DE perceive "endgame"  But at least a dozen frames have huge map wiping aoes that scale pretty far.  After the eventual patch of excal RJ, Banshee quake augment, Equinox + resonance, Ember or Simple stomp spam on rhino will take over Draco.

 

Removing the % scaling on Polarize is my main gripe, and only real issue with all the changes.  I also see that having an AOE that scales vs 2 of the major enemy types would be silly.  I feel they could have left the % scaling on shields for "real endgame" play, and reduced the speed of polarize travel a bit.

The change is perhaps a good one for the health of the game, but its hard to deny its a massive nerf. vs level 200+ enemies this nerf was insane.  Its hard not to be a little salty.  But for new players trotting through level 20 missions, pew pew.

 

 

Edited June 8, 2016 by Tatersail