Mag Rework Feedback [Post Update 18.13]

[MagPrime]

2 hours ago, (PS4)Void_Girl said:

Thanks.

tnccs215 did some experimenting and found that Fracturing Crush stacks, so that with Polarize is pretty beastly.

[motorfirebox]

3 hours ago, Noamuth said:

tnccs215 did some experimenting and found that Fracturing Crush stacks, so that with Polarize is pretty beastly.

Link? I've been wondering.

[MagPrime]

3 minutes ago, motorfirebox said:

Link? I've been wondering.

uhhhh, it's....many pages back.  I'll just summon them and they can reproduce it. 

 

@tnccs215

[tnccs215]

I ARRIVE!

Gimme a sec to find and quote it.

[Update]

Welp, I couldn't find it. Frankly, I don't know if I even wrote it here, or, better saying, a complete description of my testing. I know I was talking to Noamuth during the testing, and I pm'd a short description to someone. here's the PM:

On 6/8/2016 at 6:54 PM, tnccs215 said:

I've been doing some more testing. The "bug"-- I suppose it is a bug, because it doesn't make sense -- occurs when using one fracturing crush over the other. They don't stack conventionally: Somehow, the second Crush removes much more armor than it should.

I tested against level 130 and 50 Bailiffs, using a Blast Sibear. I used Zenurik to keep them in place.

I found some... Unusual things.

First, I hypothesized that Crush didn't actually stacked atop itself, instead adding, but somehow never going beyond the base armor (500). However, when I dealt 578 damage to a level 50, but 346 to a level 130-- that hypothesis got off the table.

Of Course, this isn't the most interesting thing I found... Fracturing crush is, at least its second instance, affected by power strength in one way or another. I'm not sure what the exact formula is, but, against a level 50 Bailiff, I dealt 539 damage after two 155% p strength fract crushes, while dealing 578 damage with 185% p strength.

I need to do more testing.

On 6/9/2016 at 4:10 AM, tnccs215 said:

Done the testing.

Confirmed. Fracturing Crush now scales with Power strength. Scales linearly up to 80% Armor reduction (160% p strength). Test done with level 50 bailiff suspended by Zenurik. simply altered my power strength until the value became constant.

Ence why the 2 f crushes+1 magnetize works on level 130 heavy gunners. They don't have their armor reduced to 25%, they have their armor reduced to 4%-- or 513 armor. 

Suppose the wiki should be altered accordingly.

On 6/9/2016 at 4:33 AM, tnccs215 said:

Btw this means that, if my calculations are correct, with nothing but 160% power strength, you can wipe clean the armor of up to level 157 corrupted heavy gunners (with two fracturing crush casts and one of polarize).

quite neat.

And that's pretty much it. If you need visual evidence:

My build:

One of the crushes

Post Polarize (you can see its bubble fading to oblivion):

If you need more explanation, feel free to ask.

 

 

 

 

Edited July 4, 2016 by tnccs215

[tnccs215]

bo

[MagPrime]

Thank you!

[motorfirebox]

Holy crap. Though Fracturing Crush is only for 7 seconds (+duration), right?

Edited July 4, 2016 by motorfirebox

[tnccs215]

12 minutes ago, Noamuth said:

Thank you!

 

1 minute ago, motorfirebox said:

Holy crap.

Y'all welcome :)

[MagPrime]

8 minutes ago, motorfirebox said:

Holy crap. Though Fracturing Crush is only for 7 seconds (+duration), right?

The immobilize is, yes.  But once the armor is gone, it seems to stay gone. 

[tnccs215]

1 hour ago, motorfirebox said:

Holy crap. Though Fracturing Crush is only for 7 seconds (+duration), right?

Well... Kinda. see, yes, the armour reduction is temporary. However, quite interestingly, it works exactly like Viral proc, but for armour.

What I mean is that, instead of being programmed to "return to original value", the armour reduction basically works by multiplying the armour by the appropriate amount (in 100% strength fracturing Crush's case, by 0.5), "waiting" for the appropriate amount of time (in 100% duration fracturing Crush's case, 7 seconds), and than diving the "current" armour value by the amount it was originally divided by.

That is, if you reduce armour while Fracturing Crush is still in effect, it wont return to the original armour value. it will, instead be reduced by the net amount you reduced (during FC) multiplied by the inverse of FC's armour reduction.

Or:

Armour postFC = [Armour preFC*(1 - 0.5*Str) - Removed Armour Value] / (1 - 0.5*Str)

For example. 

You have a Mag equiped with Fracturing Crush, 160% power strength, and 150% power duration.

• Your Fracturing Crush Removes _{0.5 * 1.6 =} 80% of affected enemies' armour for _{7 * 1.5 =}10.5 seconds.
• Your Polarize deals _{400 * 1.6 =}640 enemy armour.

A level 130 Corrupted heavy gunner appears.

She has _{500 * (1 + (130-8)^1.75 * 0.005)=}11 696 armour

 

Case 1:

• You use Fracturing Crush once
• Corrupted heavy gunner is staggered, and has her armour reduced to _{11696 * 0.2=}2 339 armour for 10.5 seconds
• After 10.5 seconds, her armour returns to 11 696

Case 2:

• You use Fracturing Crush once
• Corrupted heavy gunner is staggered, and has her armour reduced to 2 339 armour for 10.5 seconds
• You use Polarize, which hits her 2 seconds after the end of Fracturing Crush cast 
• Her armour is reduced to _{2339 - 640=}1 699 for 8.5 seconds
• 8.5 seconds after, Fracturing Crush's effect wears off, and her armour becomes _1699*5=8 496 permanently

Case 3:

• You use Fracturing Crush once
• Corrupted heavy gunner is staggered, and has her armour reduced to 2 339 armour for 10.5 seconds
• As quick as possible, you use Fracturing Crush for the second time
• Corrupted heavy gunner is staggered once more, and has her armour reduced to _{2339 * 0.2=}467 armour for 7 seconds _{(10.5 - 3.5 delay+casting time)}
• You use Polarize which hits her 2 seconds after the end of the second Fracturing Crush's cast
• Her armour is reduced to _467-640=0 armour
• 5 seconds after, the first Fracturing Crush's effect wears off. Since any value multiplied by 0 is 0, Her armour is permanently reduced to 0

 

TL;DR:

• Fracturing Crush now scales with power strength, up to 80% armour reduction-- that is, it reduces armour to a fifth of its original value.
• Once armour is fully removed-- even if this can only be achieved by also  using Fracturing Crush-- it does not return. Ever.
• This is due to its Viral-Status-esque mechanics.
• It also means that, if you don't manage to fully strip an enemies armour even when using Fracturing Crush and Polarise combined, when Fracturing Crush's effect wears off, the target will have its armor reduced substantially more than if you just used Polarize, up to 5 times more -- a value achievable by having 160% power strength or more.

 

Any questions? :)

Edited July 5, 2016 by tnccs215

[motorfirebox]

6 minutes ago, tnccs215 said:

Well... Kinda. see, yes, the armour reduction is temporary. However, quite interestingly, it works exactly like Viral proc, but for armour.

What I mean is that, instead of being programmed to "return to original value", the armour reduction basically works by multiplying the armour by the appropriate amount (in 100% strength fracturing Crush's case, by 0.5), "waiting" for the appropriate amount of time (in 100% duration fracturing Crush's case, 7 seconds), and than diving the "current" armour value by the amount it was originally divided by.

That is, if you reduce armour while Fracturing Crush is still in effect, it wont return to the original armour value. it will, instead be reduced by the net amount you reduced (during FC) multiplied by the inverse of FC's armour reduction.

Or:

Armour postFC = [Armour preFC*(1 - 0.5*Str) - Removed Armour Value] / (1 - 0.5*Str)

For example. 

You have a Mag equiped with Fracturing Crush, 160% power strength, and 150% power duration.

• Your Fracturing Crush Removes _{0.5 * 1.6 =} 80% of affected enemies' armour for _{7 * 1.5 =}10.5 seconds.
• Your Polarize deals _{400 * 1.6 =}640 enemy armour.

A level 130 Corrupted heavy gunner appears.

• She has _{500 * (1 + (130-8)^1.75 * 0.005)=}11 696 armour

 

Case 1:

• You use Fracturing Crush once
• Corrupted heavy gunner is staggered, and has her armour reduced to _{11696 * 0.2=}2 339 armour for 10.5 seconds
• After 10.5 seconds, her armour returns to 11 696

Case 2:

• You use Fracturing Crush once
• Corrupted heavy gunner is staggered, and has her armour reduced to 2 339 armour for 10.5 seconds
• You use Polarize, which hits her 2 seconds after the end of Fracturing Crush cast 
• Her armour is reduced to _{2339 - 640=}1 699 for 8.5 seconds
• 8.5 seconds after, Fracturing Crush's effect wears off, and her armour becomes _1699*5=8 496 permanently

Case 3:

• You use Fracturing Crush once
• Corrupted heavy gunner is staggered, and has her armour reduced to 2 339 armour for 10.5 seconds
• As quick as possible, you use Fracturing Crush for the second time
• Corrupted heavy gunner is staggered once more, and has her armour reduced to _{2339 * 0.2=}467 armour for 7 seconds _{(10.5 - 3.5 delay+casting time)}
• You use Polarize which hits her 2 seconds after the end of the second Fracturing Crush's cast
• Her armour is reduced to _467-640=0 armour
• 5 seconds after, the first Fracturing Crush's effect wears off. Since any value multiplied by 0 is 0, Her armour is permanently reduced to 0

 

Any questions? :)

Well. I guess I'll have to stop relying solely on Magnetize.

[MagPrime]

[tnccs215]

7 minutes ago, Noamuth said:

I SWEAR IT'S SIMPLE

gonna make a TL;DR there.

Edited July 5, 2016 by tnccs215

[Dracario]

1 hour ago, tnccs215 said:

Well... Kinda. see, yes, the armour reduction is temporary. However, quite interestingly, it works exactly like Viral proc, but for armour.

What I mean is that, instead of being programmed to "return to original value", the armour reduction basically works by multiplying the armour by the appropriate amount (in 100% strength fracturing Crush's case, by 0.5), "waiting" for the appropriate amount of time (in 100% duration fracturing Crush's case, 7 seconds), and than diving the "current" armour value by the amount it was originally divided by.

That is, if you reduce armour while Fracturing Crush is still in effect, it wont return to the original armour value. it will, instead be reduced by the net amount you reduced (during FC) multiplied by the inverse of FC's armour reduction.

Or:

Armour postFC = [Armour preFC*(1 - 0.5*Str) - Removed Armour Value] / (1 - 0.5*Str)

For example. 

You have a Mag equiped with Fracturing Crush, 160% power strength, and 150% power duration.

• Your Fracturing Crush Removes _{0.5 * 1.6 =} 80% of affected enemies' armour for _{7 * 1.5 =}10.5 seconds.
• Your Polarize deals _{400 * 1.6 =}640 enemy armour.

A level 130 Corrupted heavy gunner appears.

• She has _{500 * (1 + (130-8)^1.75 * 0.005)=}11 696 armour

 

Case 1:

• You use Fracturing Crush once
• Corrupted heavy gunner is staggered, and has her armour reduced to _{11696 * 0.2=}2 339 armour for 10.5 seconds
• After 10.5 seconds, her armour returns to 11 696

Case 2:

• You use Fracturing Crush once
• Corrupted heavy gunner is staggered, and has her armour reduced to 2 339 armour for 10.5 seconds
• You use Polarize, which hits her 2 seconds after the end of Fracturing Crush cast 
• Her armour is reduced to _{2339 - 640=}1 699 for 8.5 seconds
• 8.5 seconds after, Fracturing Crush's effect wears off, and her armour becomes _1699*5=8 496 permanently

Case 3:

• You use Fracturing Crush once
• Corrupted heavy gunner is staggered, and has her armour reduced to 2 339 armour for 10.5 seconds
• As quick as possible, you use Fracturing Crush for the second time
• Corrupted heavy gunner is staggered once more, and has her armour reduced to _{2339 * 0.2=}467 armour for 7 seconds _{(10.5 - 3.5 delay+casting time)}
• You use Polarize which hits her 2 seconds after the end of the second Fracturing Crush's cast
• Her armour is reduced to _467-640=0 armour
• 5 seconds after, the first Fracturing Crush's effect wears off. Since any value multiplied by 0 is 0, Her armour is permanently reduced to 0

 

Any questions? :)

Interesting cases there. If that was the case then the combo would need to rely on:

A. Range, so more enemies have their armor stripped. I haven't tried crush normally on regular enemies but I believe it wouldn't kill them at high levels.

B. 160 Strength is a Transient Fortitude and Intensify away but Transient sacrifices duration for more power strength. Blind rage will kill the efficiency and make the entire combo expensive. Seeing how Mag's ability costs already crappy (365 power max with r8 Primed Flow which isn't enough to compensate being called a caster), it wont be possible to cast Crush fast enough to get shot at by enemies outside the crush range.

C. Duration, something that I believe is really hampering mag's abilities. Seeing how Mag needs efficiency to cast those abilities, Fleeting combined with Transient will ultimately nuke that duration. In seven seconds it will take a while for crush to be activated again then pull it off with Polarize. Which only means...

D. Natural Talent/Speed Drift. if we're looking at crush, an ultimate that takes almost 5 seconds to actually sit through activating, you want to speed that up so you can get that F. crush going. Not only will NT and SD will take up a slot, it will be completely necessary for this combo to work.

TL;DR- Buff Power Max on her as well as speed up Mag's 4 casting.


On a side note, I feel they should bring the % scaling back. Low base % that can be buffed with Power Strength. Still drops shards but doesn't do any damage. That way we have a utility ability that's actually viable.

Also, Pull doesn't work as well intended. The pull itself is fine but killing enemies with pull is only expected at low levels. Any higher level and that utility is lost. Magnetize works well the projectiles and weapons like the Dual Toxocyst or Tonkor. Though Hit-Scan weapons aren't that good with Magnetized and using the Punch-Through mods only reach up 3.7 punch through which isn't enough to kill enemies inside magnetize in high levels. weapons like the Lanka and Miter are good because of their high punch through 5.0 meters. I thought Drakgoon would be useful but uh...Shotguns are still kinda junky.


P.S. PLEASE. FIX THE MAGNETIZE BUG (the one where you cast 2 on an enemy and the enemy dies before 2 can activate and you waste energy because of it).

Excuse me if my organization is crappy. :p

[tnccs215]

15 minutes ago, Dracario said:

Interesting cases there. If that was the case then the combo would need to rely on:

A. Range, so more enemies have their armor stripped. I haven't tried crush normally on regular enemies but I believe it wouldn't kill them at high levels.

B. 160 Strength is a Transient Fortitude and Intensify away but Transient sacrifices duration for more power strength. Blind rage will kill the efficiency and make the entire combo expensive. Seeing how Mag's ability costs already crappy (365 power max with r8 Primed Flow which isn't enough to compensate being called a caster), it wont be possible to cast Crush fast enough to get shot at by enemies outside the crush range.

C. Duration, something that I believe is really hampering mag's abilities. Seeing how Mag needs efficiency to cast those abilities, Fleeting combined with Transient will ultimately nuke that duration. In seven seconds it will take a while for crush to be activated again then pull it off with Polarize. Which only means...

D. Natural Talent/Speed Drift. if we're looking at crush, an ultimate that takes almost 5 seconds to actually sit through activating, you want to speed that up so you can get that F. crush going. Not only will NT and SD will take up a slot, it will be completely necessary for this combo to work.

TL;DR- Buff Power Max on her as well as speed up Mag's 4 casting.


On a side note, I feel they should bring the % scaling back. Low base % that can be buffed with Power Strength. Still drops shards but doesn't do any damage. That way we have a utility ability that's actually viable.

Also, Pull doesn't work as well intended. The pull itself is fine but killing enemies with pull is only expected at low levels. Any higher level and that utility is lost. Magnetize works well the projectiles and weapons like the Dual Toxocyst or Tonkor. Though Hit-Scan weapons aren't that good with Magnetized and using the Punch-Through mods only reach up 3.7 punch through which isn't enough to kill enemies inside magnetize in high levels. weapons like the Lanka and Miter are good because of their high punch through 5.0 meters. I thought Drakgoon would be useful but uh...Shotguns are still kinda junky.


P.S. PLEASE. FIX THE MAGNETIZE BUG (the one where you cast 2 on an enemy and the enemy dies before 2 can activate and you waste energy because of it).

Excuse me if my organization is crappy. :p

With all due respect:

It works. I'm teling you, that in practice, in game, it definetly works. not only because one rarely goes up to level 100+ enemies-- which means that 1 fracturing crush+ 1 polarize is enough most of the times--, it simply does. I've used the build I posted before many, many times on sorties, and it simply works. 

However, I do agree she needs a bigger energy pool.

[Dracario]

3 minutes ago, tnccs215 said:

With all due respect:

It works. I'm teling you, that in practice, in game, it definetly works. not only because one rarely goes up to level 100+ enemies-- which means that 1 fracturing crush+ 1 polarize is enough most of the times--, it simply does. I've used the build I posted before many, many times on sorties, and it simply works. 

However, I do agree she needs a bigger energy pool.

I just need fracturing crush to actually see for myself. But besides the big debate how about Mag gets a new augment and scrap greedy pull? I'd rather her have an augment on Magnetize rather than pull.

[Dracario]

1 minute ago, Dracario said:

I just need fracturing crush to actually see for myself. But besides the big debate how about Mag gets a new augment and scrap greedy pull? I'd rather her have an augment on Magnetize rather than pull.

Also throwing weapons aren't affected by Magnetize. Sucks man.

[TheLexiConArtist]

1 hour ago, Dracario said:

I just need fracturing crush to actually see for myself. But besides the big debate how about Mag gets a new augment and scrap greedy pull? I'd rather her have an augment on Magnetize rather than pull.

Magnetise becoming placeable on terrain instead of purely on enemy targets instead of Greedy Pull might actually get me to worry about finding a slot for an augment. Just not sure what the rankable modifier would be on such a thing. (Extended range or duration? I can dream.)

 

1 hour ago, Dracario said:

Also throwing weapons aren't affected by Magnetize. Sucks man.

It can be nice to have something agnostic to the bubble that you can throw in (or shoot in, in the Redeemer's case) to take out a problem target when the odd behaviour of Magnetise bubbles seems to want to steal your bullets where it really shouldn't.

[MagPrime]

4 minutes ago, EDYinnit said:

Magnetise becoming placeable on terrain instead of purely on enemy targets instead of Greedy Pull might actually get me to worry about finding a slot for an augment. Just not sure what the rankable modifier would be on such a thing. (Extended range or duration? I can dream.)

 

It can be nice to have something agnostic to the bubble that you can throw in (or shoot in, in the Redeemer's case) to take out a problem target when the odd behaviour of Magnetise bubbles seems to want to steal your bullets where it really shouldn't.

Even better, Magnetize merges with Polarize and any the remaining armor of any effected targets attract incoming projectiles.  Turn them into walking magnets!

[Dracario]

4 minutes ago, Noamuth said:

Even better, Magnetize merges with Polarize and any the remaining armor of any effected targets attract incoming projectiles.  Turn them into walking magnets!

 

9 minutes ago, EDYinnit said:

Magnetise becoming placeable on terrain instead of purely on enemy targets instead of Greedy Pull might actually get me to worry about finding a slot for an augment. Just not sure what the rankable modifier would be on such a thing. (Extended range or duration? I can dream.)

 

It can be nice to have something agnostic to the bubble that you can throw in (or shoot in, in the Redeemer's case) to take out a problem target when the odd behaviour of Magnetise bubbles seems to want to steal your bullets where it really shouldn't.

I was thinking more of all bullets entering the bubble have innate 5.0m punchthrough so that lanka isn't the only good weapon to use

 

[MagPrime]

Just now, Dracario said:

 

I was thinking more of all bullets entering the bubble have innate 5.0m punchthrough so that lanka isn't the only good weapon to use

 

tbh I've had no issues with the Soma or Braton Primes.  But then, I don't do insanely long Survival/Defense/Interception runs.

[Dracario]

Just now, Noamuth said:

tbh I've had no issues with the Soma or Braton Primes.  But then, I don't do insanely long Survival/Defense/Interception runs.

I say punch through augment because Magnetize is a CC ability and it's meant to be shot into. The issue early was that  only the center target was ever hit and the DoT was tending to be low end. Therefore all bullets in the augment have innate 5.0m punchthrough to hit all enemies. Also Lanka shots are stopped by terrain in the testing area. It needs to be fixed.

[motorfirebox]

25 minutes ago, Dracario said:

 

I was thinking more of all bullets entering the bubble have innate 5.0m punchthrough so that lanka isn't the only good weapon to use

 

But... Lanka isn't the only good weapon to use.

[Dracario]

1 minute ago, motorfirebox said:

But... Lanka isn't the only good weapon to use.

You know what I mean, only a limited amount of guns are.

[TheLexiConArtist]

24 minutes ago, Dracario said:

I say punch through augment because Magnetize is a CC ability and it's meant to be shot into. The issue early was that  only the center target was ever hit and the DoT was tending to be low end. Therefore all bullets in the augment have innate 5.0m punchthrough to hit all enemies. Also Lanka shots are stopped by terrain in the testing area. It needs to be fixed.

Well, it's quite a logic problem as an ability to enable actual bullet input to hit things inside other than the main target/epicentre, which DE has mitigated by giving us the DoT effect.

Anything not ragdolled and drawn into the centre is likely to not take damage, at higher ranges this even includes a Lanka simply because of the way the projectiles only orbit very specifically inside the gravitational effect.

Non-projectile weapons don't even do that; they generate particles that go to the middle and are done with their life. Anything not in the direct path of that radius line between centre and point of entry can't be hit, which means anything beyond the hemisphere facing the player is effectively completely safe from nonprojectile attracted bullets.

 

So, since the magnetic pull is... weak enough that it's not a perfect block to anything running through that really wants to and isn't under CC, you either use projectiles and/or CC to get things within the 'effective zone' (point for nonprojectiles, orbit for projectiles), or you simply pump in as much damage to the bubble for the DoT effect and/or radial explosion as you can, so that clears out enemies you wouldn't get to hit otherwise.